She wants a threesome but...

[green_genes]

I was involved with a lady for nearly a year but we stopped dating last April (2014) because she wanted to "see other people" but didn't want to stop dating me. I told her that I did not want that kind of relationship and ended our relationship. I felt hurt because I believed I was inadequate as a boyfriend and never contacted her again.

Before she and I started dating she had her first three-way with a married couple she worked with. She let me know this relatively early on in our relationship. She enjoyed the act but it did end up causing quite a bit of drama with the married couple. I told her that that is one of the few reasons I am not interested in partaking in that kind of activity.

Later, in October of 2014, she contacted me and expressed some regret that our relationship ended and we've since started talking with increasing frequency. Since our break up she has moved in with her current boyfriend. She's shared with me that her current boyfriend (let's call him Bob) has expressed that the only way he'd be interested in a threesome is if it was her, him, and a female prostitute. This is unappealing to her. Further anecdotal evidence suggests to me that he would never be involved in a three way with a woman and another man and he would not be okay with her going off and having sex with other people.

Just today she and I had a very long phone conversation where she told me that just last week she met up with the couple from before and had a rushed threesome with them. It wasn't planned on her part, "it was spontaneous", she says. I was very disappointed to hear this because, while it's fine to have consensual sex with whoever, she has violated the implicit terms of her relationship with Bob. She is hiding this fact from him, which implies to me that she knows she is in the wrong. I pointed these out to her immediately in the conversation.

From our many conversations I know there are other issues with their relationship and she feels discouraged to stay in the relationship. I theorize that she met with the couple again as an act of self sabotage.

The thing that I am hung up on is: what is the moral argument for and/or against "open relationships"? Like I said, I feel like if all parties involved are consenting, get it on, have sex, etc.. At the same time, and maybe it's simply how I was raised, I feel like having an intimate, special relationship with someone means saving the act of sex for that one other person. If sex is not worth saving for that one special person, then what is? I mean, what makes a relationship special if I'm allowed to do everything with everyone?

I can see how monogamy is necessary for humans on a biological and primitive tribal level but has "modern civilization" dissolved that necessity?

I tried to convince my ex (let's call her Sally) that if she cannot come to some mutual agreement with Bob that would allow her to fulfill her extra-sexual(?) desires (or if she's unwilling to bend to his preference for her not to have those desires) that she needs to leave him. I also tried to assure her that there is probably a guy out there who would be okay with her partaking in threeways (with or without him) but she wasn't very convinced and I made it clear that I'm still not ready or willing to accept that kind of relationship.

It's currently 4am where I live so I guess you could say I'm losing sleep over this. I still care about her greatly and it's been incredibly disappointing today to hear about her lying and cheating. I'm going to try and sleep now but any comments/advice/help is greatly appreciated!

[Crallask]

There's nothing moral or immoral about it. It's just a preference.

 

Cheating would be immoral because you're lying to your partner about boundaries you have established with one another. (So what she did was certainly worthy of contempt. What if they had an STD and she gave it to him by having sex after their threesome?)

 

That being said, I find it extremely bizarre that you think modern society has dissolved it as a necessity. What is the status of families in the face of the imbalanced monogamy of the present day? 

 

 

Also - why do you even care about this? I don't exactly see what you're getting out of this than her calling you back up, saying she was sorry for some things. (Not all of it, she just had some regret in your wording.) After this she then proceeded to dump all her woes upon you and I heard you getting nothing back from any of it.

 

Quick question - How pretty is she?

 

Because not only is she cheating, she cheated with a married couple that had problems from her prior insertion into their sex life. So she hurt the couple again, herself, and her boyfriend - why? Because she's not mature enough to break up with a guy unless she has a safety net of attention waiting to serve her?

 

I mean, it sounds like you're already her emotional boyfriend anyways. So you get to do the emotional work while someone else gets to jam the clam and she searches to trade up.

 

 

Please - let me know if I'm wrong about any of this. 

[st434u]

She is evil and you should end your relationship with her if you value your own happiness and your ability to feel trust and love for anyone in the future, including yourself.

 

Also, you've got monogamy and polygamy in tribal versus civilized societies backwards. It was tribal societies that were polygamous. It's civilization that requires monogamy and family unions. In a tribe, there's just tribal unions. For more on this see my posts in these threads:

 

https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/36874-is-it-natural-for-humans-to-make-war/

 

https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/38292-stefans-comments-on-civilization/

[green_genes]

st434u,
I'll take your word on the tribe v. civi thing. I'm sure you've put more effort into learning about that topic.

I appreciate your direct, blunt advice. I knew I could expect some of that when I decided to post this. At the moment, however, I'm not ready to act on your advice to cut her off, cold turkey. If you are correct that not doing so means I don't value my own happiness, that is something else I'll have to consider soon.

I do very much appreciate your comments and am open to persuasive arguments regarding how cutting ties with Sally would increase (or at least not degrade) my ability to trust and love myself.

Crallask,
After listening to the call in show pretty regularly since this early summer, I should have seen that question, 'How pretty is she?', coming from a mile away! Callers typically have their doubts and insecurities when asked to rate themselves and I am no exception. I know I'm not a 10. I think depending on the woman doing the judging I'd range between a 4 and a 7. I feel comfortable rating Sally a 6.5 to 7.0. All that being said, prior to dating her I had dated ladies who were younger and prettier. Even though I am a few years older now, I still have confidence in my ability to attract women prettier than Sally.

I agree that having consensual sex with whoever is ... okay (for lack of a more precise word). I suppose I need to familiarize myself with the definitions of 'moral', 'ethics', and 'preferential' so I can use the terms with more confidence. I was throwing the question out there to see if I was missing something.

As I stated, I'm not one to go for that sort of thing. On the one hand, I think, 'Don't knock it 'til you try it.' But then, on the other hand, I don't wish to do crystal meth just to confirm my suspicions about its cost:benefit ratio. The risk management of STDs and the added drama are two main reasons I justify running screaming from proposals for "open" style relationships. Additionally, I consider the sexual intimacy and reproductive process one of the few things (even perhaps the ONLY thing) that I save for "that special someone". I have pleasantly close relationships with friends of both sexes where we share adventures and enjoy conversations about external, global issues but also very personal issues. The one thing I don't share with anyone else is that physical/sexual intimacy (save for the occasional "bro hug" and fist bump of course). I feel that if I share sexual experiences with my friends, there wouldn't be much of anything (nothing that I can really think of at the moment) left to differentiate a friendship from a marriage (or equivalent "long term", "committed", "special", et cetera relationship).

I'm feeling a little insecure in this reasoning and would appreciate arguments for and against it. That request is open to anyone reading it.


I agree that the lying and cheating to her current boyfriend, Bob, is contemptible. She explained that this second act with the same couple went a lot more comfortably for everyone involved. The first time she did it was just a month or two before I met her. She explained that the husband had to convince the wife to go ahead with it. Personally, I think that was a selfish and shitty thing for him to do. Things were rough between the three of them (they were/are work friends) for a while and the husband was allegedly pushing Sally to have sex with him without his wife present. He's a sleeze-ball in my book and I'm frankly disgusted that she still considers him a friend, let alone would go back for more.

What do I get out of talking with her, being her "emotional boyfriend"?
In short: I want to help her.

I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't still attracted to her and fond of the year that she and I spent together. Part of me would like that back. But there are, of course, red flags. To be perfectly honest, I think she'd be decent wife material if I could help her work through some of her issues. However, I (clearly?) have my own set of issues to work out before I can really help her. I can get into her childhood if it makes any difference. That, in itself, is a long story. She's honestly been robbed of so much in life and I would really like to see her thrive. She started back in therapy this fall and I hope she's in good hands.

I appreciate your comments.

[green_genes]

I typed responses to both of your posts but I believe they're in moderator limbo. I realize I may have used a "curse word" in one of them but not the other. Is there a probationary period for newbies?

Patience is a virtue, right? I guess I'll wait longer and see.

[MMX2010]

I only got 65% of the way through your post. 

 

I'm a womanizer-in-training.  I believe in maximum relationship freedom for men, and I especially believe that the romantic conventions that society embraces are designed to work men until they're dead. 

 

However, I have to ask, "WHY in the name of both your own sanity and the sake of moral consistency are you still talking with this chick?"  (1) If you were talking to this chick and sleeping with this chick, I'd understand.  I'd be scared for your personal safety, and think you're borderline obsessed with a crazy chick, but I'd still understand.  And I'd tell you, "Please stop sleeping with her, but if you do sleep with her, wrap it up and burn the condom afterwards.  *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*"  (2) But you're talking to this chick AND NOT sleeping with her, which means you get to put yourself in harm's way and enabling all of her negative behaviors - despite claiming to be morally against them - without getting any friggin' benefit. 

 

By talking to this chick, you're enabling her to feel good about what she's doing!  You think you're "planting the seed of moral doubt" (or however you phrase it to yourself).  But what really happens is: (1) Before she talks to you, she feels extremely stressed out and worried about what she did.  (2) After she talks to you, she feels zero stress and zero worry about what she did. 

 

That's it. 

 

So just stop talking to her.  Period. 

 

You don't need us to give you a 75 page essay about "The negative effects of modern civilization on monogamy".  Nor do you need us to link you to news stories of "Crazy woman does crazy stuff to innocent male".  You just need to stop talking to her. 

[green_genes]

MMX2010,
So I am supposed to sit back and let her burn?

I have straight up told her that she was wrong to breach his trust; that I was disappointed in her because of that; that just because it was unplanned and "spontaneous" was no excuse not to talk to him about it beforehand; that she's an adult and needs to be able to put off instant gratification/impulses; and should probably stop wasting both of their time and end their relationship. She also understands that I stand firm on my preference not to have any form of "open" relationship with her or anyone else. The reason I lost sleep over the whole conversation was because I know she did not feel like everything was great at its conclusion. She has her work friend/sex pal (the wife) and her sister both enabling her behavior from what I gathered so, as usual, it comes down to me to do the dirty work. Obviously, if she doesn't act on my advice or otherwise take initiative to squash her problems, I can't waste any more time on her. You can lead a horse to water...

I've listened to "On Truth" and I'm 2/3 through "Real Time Relationships", which I've recommended she listen to as well. Perhaps I'm not fully comprehending everything that's being said in those texts? Am I missing something? I figured this community was about improving the world and helping people but so far all I've been told is that I'm a fool for trying to advise a person how to sort out their problems. But hey, I need to remember that I came to you all because I figured I needed advice from the pros and, since I'm 3 for 3 now on "just stop talking to her", I should take the advice I came for.


I'm sorry if I'm coming off super defensive here, I'm just a bit taken aback. I don't want to discourage people from throwing their two cents in by being combative. I really do appreciate the few of you who have stepped forward to comment. I guess it's time for me to step back from Sally and learn that I don't have to fix everything.

But that's kind of why I became an engineer in the first place... ouch, right in the identity...

[Alan C.]

She is looking for validation and using you to get it. She also wants somebody to coddle her and excuse her behavior.

 

I recently ended a friendship with a young lady after a few months because I felt like I was being used.

 

We were never intimate. In hindsight, I'm glad that I didn't go there. I had reservations about her from the beginning, based upon things she told me about her past, but I'm not the judgemental type and I enjoyed her company. However, she was immature and glib, and I decided to let it go when it became obvious that she wasn't going to change.

 

Whenever I spend time with a woman, the thought that is always in the forefront of my mind is, "Is she wife and mother material?"

[Carl Green]

MMX2010,

So I am supposed to sit back and let her burn?

 

No.

 

And she is not evil like st434u says.

 

If you care about her, try and help her. The hard part is determining if the amount of effort required to help will be worth it. (this depends on how much you care about her)

 

Merely talking with someone does not mean you approve of everything they've done in the past and are planning to do in the future.

[green_genes]

Alan Chapman,
Thanks for sharing. I'm glad you stood up for yourself and ended things before they went too far.

My responses to previous comments posted just recently. In one of them I expressed that I don't feel I was enabling her behavior in the conversation. I think you are correct with your thought that she initiated the conversation hoping to be coddled. She had already discussed this issue with two other people and it sounded like they did tell her what she wanted to hear. I don't know if she came to me for a man's opinion or if she was perhaps looking for someone to say out loud what her conscience was already telling her. I suppose, if she wants to talk again, I could ask her exactly that. I guess if she doesn't want to talk openly to me again, that'll be a strong indication of her intentions.

Thanks again.

If you care about her, try and help her. The hard part is determining if the amount of effort required to help will be worth it. (this depends on how much you care about her)

 

Merely talking with someone does not mean you approve of everything they've done in the past and are planning to do in the future.

That is the hard part, Carl. While I do have my own life to live, it's hardly a trouble to talk to her a few hours a week. If she responds to my advice with taking even a little action towards a solution, I will feel incentivized to keep helping.

Your comment is appreciated, Carl.

[MagnumPI]

So, the man's a sleaze ball but this girl just needs help and she's been robbed of so much? That reeks of mangina queef.
 

Out on a limb here, but basically, you still want to hit that, and threesome guy is getting in the way. All this other fluff is just that. You know better, but fuck it. She's a lot of fun.

[green_genes]

MagnumPI (love the name btw),

You bring out an interesting point. I'm reminded of something I heard Stef say about not holding people responsible for their actions and treating them as if they were not capable human beings. True, I look at Sally and see her as a helpless woman, incapable of working out her own problems. "Threesome guy" (let's call him Doug) I know very very little about other than he seems to have pressured his wife into a three way and then, when his wife was still struggling to deal with the aftermath of their sexual experiment and didn't want Doug to interact with Sally at all, he attempted to go behind his wife's back to have one on one sex with Sally. I think that's sleazy thing to do, yes. The first time they got together Sally was a free agent, no strings attached. This second time she is in a relationship with Bob, who would be unhappy to find out that Sally had sex with another man (and woman). That too is a bad thing and I have told Sally that in our phone conversation.

Sally and I had a good year together but she was less than a year out of a 15 year arranged marriage before we started dating and I could tell she didn't want to get into another long term relationship without experiencing more in life. I say she was robbed because at the age of 8 her parents joined the "12 Tribes of Israel" religious "community" (cult) where she was abused. She was not taught any skills that would help her outside of the community because they didn't want people to leave. At 18 she was married to another 18 year old (boy) and they proceeded to have 4 children together. More sheep to the slaughter. If memory serves, she didn't leave the community until around 2008. No driver's license, no high school diploma, no skills outside of cooking, cleaning, and sewing. When I doubt her ability to thrive out here it's because she hasn't demonstrated them to me and her life seems to be on a slow descent for the last two years I've known her. She is a hell of a hard worker (which I admire) but it seems that her inability to resolve issues allows them to pile up and it appears to be slowly burying her.

Do I still want to "hit that"? On a level, yes. She is still attractive to my "lizard brain" but, I was strong enough to stand my ground and respect my standards when she and I broke up last spring and given that she has proven herself untrustworthy I'm even further away from picking up where we left off than before. I admit that if she straightened out I'd be interested in resuming the relationship that we had but I'm not going to hold my breathe. It is still important to me to see that she and her children survive out here. Why is that so wrong? If she doesn't take it seriously I'll have to move on.

Either way, it looks like we've got another vote for "let her burn".

Thanks for your input.

[green_genes]

So... I just stop talking to Sally? No notice? No last good bye? No explanation why? That sounds like running away. It sounds cowardly.

Edit: MagnumPI, there's a more direct response to your post in moderator limbo at the moment. I'm not sure why this post posted immediately and the other one didn't.

[J. D. Stembal]

 

Even though I am a few years older now, I still have confidence in my ability to attract women prettier than Sally.

I'm feeling a little insecure in this reasoning and would appreciate arguments for and against it. That request is open to anyone reading it.

 

I agree that the lying and cheating to her current boyfriend, Bob, is contemptible.

 

He's a sleeze-ball in my book and I'm frankly disgusted that she still considers him a friend, let alone would go back for more.

 

I want to help her.

 

I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't still attracted to her and fond of the year that she and I spent together.

 

To be perfectly honest, I think she'd be decent wife material if I could help her work through some of her issues.

 

You reasoned yourself out of a more practical conclusion because of EGGS. My spider senses are telling me, "RUN AWAY!"

 

If you can find much better women (remember that youth and beauty are not virtues), then please forget about this woman and locate the better women if they are out there and still single. If you find more than one, send one of them my way. I like brunettes.

 

I saw the thread where you mentioned that you have two kids, and started peaceful parenting. I am assuming that you are separated from the mother. Do you mind exploring that experience? It may be relevant to what has been going on more recently in your love life.

 

Congratulations on walking the path of peaceful parenting!

[st434u]

From what you said, she is much worse than the husband. It should be no surprise that she likes him.

 

I think the reason you want to help her is because you're infected with that all too common belief that the only way you will be loved is if you blow yourself up in pieces (http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_1131_Palestinians_Martyrs_Psychohistory.mp3); and this is what you're doing. This is the main issue you have to resolve, not in order to help her -she's beyond salvation-, but in order to help yourself.

[Crallask]

Alan Chapman,

Thanks for sharing. I'm glad you stood up for yourself and ended things before they went too far.

 

My responses to previous comments posted just recently. In one of them I expressed that I don't feel I was enabling her behavior in the conversation. I think you are correct with your thought that she initiated the conversation hoping to be coddled. She had already discussed this issue with two other people and it sounded like they did tell her what she wanted to hear. I don't know if she came to me for a man's opinion or if she was perhaps looking for someone to say out loud what her conscience was already telling her. I suppose, if she wants to talk again, I could ask her exactly that. I guess if she doesn't want to talk openly to me again, that'll be a strong indication of her intentions.

 

Thanks again.

That is the hard part, Carl. While I do have my own life to live, it's hardly a trouble to talk to her a few hours a week. If she responds to my advice with taking even a little action towards a solution, I will feel incentivized to keep helping.

 

Your comment is appreciated, Carl.

 

 

Dude, assuming you want a girlfriend/romantic female partner that is of an exceptional quality then you're setting yourself up for a bad time.

 

Imagine being a woman and hearing that some guy was helping his ex who ditched him cause she wanted a more open sex life got into all the trouble she did, cheated on her boyfriend, etc.

 

And that you're willing to devote a shitload of time to someone that's giving you back nothing.

 

I'm telling you this right now man. You can't help people in her condition. They have to want to change. What incentive does she have to change when she can cheat on her boyfirend, get wild threesomes, AND retain the time and attention of her ex? 

 

In my opinion. You're not just unable to help her. You're exacerbating the problem by enabling her bad behavior. 

 

If I was a woman of quality and not an asshole who likes easily manipulated guys then i'd hear this story and my vaginal folds would feel like to gritty ends of sandpaper chaffing against one another. 

 

I know you don't want to crash and let her burn, but sometimes you got to. People choose their own paths in life. Let them take what they want and pay for it. Right now you're letting her rack of debt on your end that I would never expect her to return. 

 

AND YOU ACTUALLY MADE THE EXCUSE THAT HER THREESOME WAS BETTER THIS TIME AROUND. No it wasn't - she was fucking cheating to do it. I don't doubt that the guy is none too impressive a moral specimen. But don't give out blatant excuses like that. I get it - she has a vagina. I don't give a shit. Stop hurting decent women by giving attention to an unrepentant cheater who you also excuse as getting "Swept away in the moment."

 

Women can do so, soooo much better. But they'll never need to if you just blow fog out your ass about how monogamy might be outdated and etc just to protect her bad choices. 

[green_genes]

What do I tell her? How should I end it?

Crallask, you've got a couple of your facts twisted but I get what you mean.
st434u, you're right.

I was wrong

[Crallask]

Which of my facts were twisted? (Because I obviously don't know as much about the situation as you.)

[green_genes]

I stated that SHE claimed the second threesome was better. I wasn't using that to excuse the act. No way.
SHE tried to use the spontaneity as an excuse. I spoke up immediately to tell her that was no excuse.

[st434u]

Tell her whatever you want to tell her. You don't have to tell her anything if you don't want to. You don't owe her anything.

 

Personally, I think it's a good idea to let people know when you no longer want to be in contact with them, and usually explain why as well, but that's just me.

[green_genes]

st434u, I sent her a message 25minutes ago on Facebook. Facebook indicates she's seen it but she hasn't responded -- which is probably a good thing.

Juno has had me snowed in for two days. It'll be good to get out and back to living life tomorrow.

Thanks for all the comments everybody.

[MMX2010]

MMX2010,

So I am supposed to sit back and let her burn?

 

Yes.   Not because you don't care, but because of what Carl Bartlett said, "The hard part is determining if the amount of effort required to help will be worth it. (this depends on how much you care about her)."  Since you're losing sleep at 4AM over this girl, you don't have the skill level / objectivity to regulate the amount of care/concern you give her. 

 

I've had a Mistress for about five years, and there's no way in heck I'm going to lose sleep over anything she does.  That's why she's my Mistress. 

 

 

 

 

I've listened to "On Truth" and I'm 2/3 through "Real Time Relationships", which I've recommended she listen to as well. Perhaps I'm not fully comprehending everything that's being said in those texts? Am I missing something? I figured this community was about improving the world and helping people but so far all I've been told is that I'm a fool for trying to advise a person how to sort out their problems. But hey, I need to remember that I came to you all because I figured I needed advice from the pros and, since I'm 3 for 3 now on "just stop talking to her", I should take the advice I came for.

 

You need to improve yourself, first.  Ask yourself why you're so devoted to her, even though you're no longer boyfriend/girlfriend.  Have you dated anyone else since the breakup? 

[green_genes]

MMX2010,

I definitely agree with you now that I didn't have the capability to regulate myself regarding her. I feel I made my final message to her clear enough. It's been over an hour since she saw it and she hasn't responded.

I read your introductory post from September and many of your contributions to the 'What constitutes romantic love?' thread. Mistresses... that game is way out of my league.

No, I have not dated since the break up last April. Excuse? I wanted to focus on transitioning careers last summer and finishing my last year of college the following Fall/Spring. Although the more truthful reason for not pursuing another relationship lies closer to my low appraisal of my self worth.

[MMX2010]

MMX2010,

 

I definitely agree with you now that I didn't have the capability to regulate myself regarding her. I feel I made my final message to her clear enough. It's been over an hour since she saw it and she hasn't responded. 

 

If your final message is clear, and if that final message is a "Good Bye", then why are you waiting for her to respond to it?  I'm not trying to be rude, nor making fun of you, but the point of a "Good Bye" message is the Good Bye.  It's not in the other person's response to your Good Bye. 

 

 

 

 

 

I read your introductory post from September and many of your contributions to the 'What constitutes romantic love?' thread. Mistresses... that game is way out of my league.

 

It's not "out of your league"; you just don't know how to do it right now.  When you say things are "out of your league", you diminish your learning capabilities. 

 

 

 

 

No, I have not dated since the break up last April. Excuse? I wanted to focus on transitioning careers last summer and finishing my last year of college the following Fall/Spring. Although the more truthful reason for not pursuing another relationship lies closer to my low appraisal of my self worth.

 

When you diminish your learning-capabilities, you diminish your self-worth. 

 

Have you read Nathaniel Brandon's "The Six Pillars of Self Esteem"?  I haven't, but Stefan highly recommends it. 

 

You might want to learn how to pick up women, as described by either Roosh (in Bang and Day Bang) or Krauser.  If you treat picking up women as a skill, (as long as it's a skill that you don't have, really want, and think it's ridiculously impossible to acquire), then those books will help you.  (It's like me wanting to be a professional ice hockey player very much, telling myself I'm too clumsy to be one, and then one day waking up as a professional ice hockey player.  Not only would I "magically" discover how skilled I really am, but I'd also discover how self-limiting my language was; and I'd vow never to talk down to myself in that way.) 

 

But if you view picking up women as a source, or major piece, of acquiring self-worth, then don't pick up women.  (You can't use someone else's approval as a means to acquire self-worth - because you are you and they are not-you.)

 

Hope this helps. 

[green_genes]

If you can find much better women (remember that youth and beauty are not virtues), then please forget about this woman and locate the better women if they are out there and still single. If you find more than one, send one of them my way. I like brunettes.

 

I saw the thread where you mentioned that you have two kids, and started peaceful parenting. I am assuming that you are separated from the mother. Do you mind exploring that experience? It may be relevant to what has been going on more recently in your love life.

 

Congratulations on walking the path of peaceful parenting!

ETU,

 

I missed your post from earlier!

 

I've no real preference when it comes to hair color. Here in Maine, we do seem to have a surplus of brunettes (that's the dominant gene, yes?). If I snag two on the same line I'll message you for your shipping address and the darker haired of the two will be in the mail.

 

Yes, I am divorced. The girls are with me Sunday afternoon through Friday afternoon during the school year and then custody changes to three days with me, four with her for the couple months of summer break. I met My Ex Wife (MEW) early 2003. I was 20 years old. Young, dumb, and full of cum. Some here might argue I haven't changed much. I never dated during high school but jumped into the game the summer after graduation. After my first "real" relationship ended I became disinterested in "dating" and wanted a wife. Stupid, I know. But I became a man on a mission. Admittedly, I moved too quickly, too carelessly, and we had our first daughter in the summer of 2004. She was our flower girl when we got married in the fall of '05. We both dropped college when MEW became pregnant. I literally panicked and sold my Camaro for a station wagon. We scraped by over the next several years on meager fast food management salaries. Early 2010 MEW was showing signs of restlessness and malcontent with life, the marriage, me, etc.. She grew up running track&field and wanted to get involved with that again. After struggling to find a highschool coaching position an old football coach of mine crossed paths with me and, as it turned out, he was looking for a *female* coach to complete his staff at a nearby high school. I got him in touch with MEW and she was hired pretty much the same day. This was late March/early April 2010. There was a young (a year below me) assistant coach on staff who quickly became MEW's new best friend. With MEW working her regular, full time job and part time coaching, we quickly had even less time to spend with each other, something she always expressed wanting more of. Her friendship with the assistant coach (let's call him Tim) started to take over even our precious time together. We made a point of getting Thursdays off together to watch 'Lost' on TV. The last few episodes we watched together, she was curled up on the opposite end of the couch texting Tim as he watched the same show across the county line at his place. June 17, 2010 she packs the girls up and drives them an hour and a half north to her parents' home while I'm working. I come home to a cold, dark house. She tells me she's leaving me, we have words, she leaves. I had to ask permission to visit my kids a few days later on Father's Day. I couldn't afford the rent on the house we were in so I had two weeks to pack shit and find a new home. She allegedly spent those two weeks at her parent's place with the girls but I later found out she spent a few days each week prepping Tim's place for her new nest. I wasn't surprised she was moving in with him -__-  I spent the next eight months trying to make amends with MEW. We did several months of couples therapy. I believe it was March when I served her divorce papers. The divorce was finalized November 29, 2011.

 

That's the basic experience, ETU.

[green_genes]

MMX2010,

Typically when I say 'good bye' to someone, they say 'good bye' back. In fact, she did respond about 40 minutes ago with a 'good bye' but in more words.

Unless I'm unclear on your definitions, I don't wish to have sexual relations with more than one girl.... that's kind of the reason my relationship with Sally ended (emphasis on *kind of*). I'm starting to think I'm a prude.

I'm generally pretty conservative with who I pick up so my success rate is pretty high but the sample size is pretty low so it's nothing to brag about. I think I will have to alter my criteria of who I go after though.

It helps.


EndTheUsurpation,  I did respond to your post but it appears to be lost in moderator hell still. Is there a character limit I'm not aware of?

[J-William]

I tried to convince my ex (let's call her Sally) that if she cannot come to some mutual agreement with Bob that would allow her to fulfill her extra-sexual(?) desires (or if she's unwilling to bend to his preference for her not to have those desires) that she needs to leave him. I also tried to assure her that there is probably a guy out there who would be okay with her partaking in threeways (with or without him) but she wasn't very convinced and I made it clear that I'm still not ready or willing to accept that kind of relationship.

 

it might be worth picking apart your language a bit here. you say "or if she's unwilling to bend to his preference for her not to have those desires" It's not really the desire that is the problem, it's acting on it. A desire is something you can discuss and deal with. 

 

Also you say there is probably a guy out there... but you did not specify that he's healthy or a good guy for her, I think that's a key bit you left out.

 

Anyhow, I think that she needs to sort this out with the help of a good therapist. She's destroyed or threatened multiple relationships because of this desire and acting on it. Either she wants the three ways and she needs to set her sights on guys that accept that. Or she wants a good guy.

A good therapist can help her sort that out, you can't (as you found out).

[green_genes]

J-William,

Good points.

She started seeing a therapist several weeks ago.

I don't know if there are guys who are "healthy" or "good" out there for her that would also be down for letting her have sex outside a relationship. You seem to be saying that having three ways and being with a good guy are mutually exclusive. Why would that be so? That sort of argument/proof was why I started this topic.

Thanks

[J-William]

J-William,

 

Good points.

 

She started seeing a therapist several weeks ago.

 

I don't know if there are guys who are "healthy" or "good" out there for her that would also be down for letting her have sex outside a relationship. You seem to be saying that having three ways and being with a good guy are mutually exclusive. Why would that be so? That sort of argument/proof was why I started this topic.

 

Thanks

Well, let's assume that you're a good guy, and the guy she's dating currently are a good guy... that's two good guys that she's dynamited relationships with because she wants to get some more people in bed. Good men are hard to come by.

 

Let's also notice that she had a really dysfunctional childhood that she didn't deal with before having kids, and now it seems the most important thing to her is finding a guy that's ok with having several people getting it on with her together.

 

So, I don't know that threesomes are bad, but I do know that they are not as important as the love of a good partner. She needs a good dose of perspective because finding good men is hard and finding a good man that wants threesomes is even harder.

 

 

There are many things that my wife and I don't have in common. she likes seafood, I can't stand it. I love cheese, she only likes cheese when it's on a pizza. But we share courage, kindness, and virtue so those preferences don't exactly matter.

 

Or to put it in a way that more closely mirrors the discussion, Let's say I am interested in doing things in bed that my wife doesn't want to do. I am not about to end our relationship to pursue those sexual interests cuz they're just not that important.

[green_genes]

Excellent points, J-William.

Now that I've had a day or so to (A) catch up on my own life and (B) cool off and reflect on what has happened, I see things a bit clearer and I'm feeling more settled.

She said a lot of things to me earlier this week but the facts are that she chose self-indulgence over honesty and fidelity and (claimed) long term goals of finding "true love". I treated her too softly because of my own weaknesses and undermined my ability to call her out on her wrong doings.

One of the last things I told her was that her lying and cheating was absolutely wrong but that doesn't mean she can't make it right and redeem herself. And then I told her that if she can't admit this fault and has no desire to redeem herself, I don't want to be "friends" with someone like that. I put quotes around friends because, in her last message to me, she said that she hopes I still consider her a friend even if I don't talk to her. I'm not sure what kind of friends don't ever talk to each other.



I've got a week long break from school in a couple weeks. That might be a good time to look at myself in the mirror and try and examine myself. I'd like to figure out why I let myself get wrapped up in these types of women. Why I don't see their manipulations.

[MMX2010]

I've got a week long break from school in a couple weeks. That might be a good time to look at myself in the mirror and try and examine myself. I'd like to figure out why I let myself get wrapped up in these types of women. Why I don't see their manipulations.

 

This is just a guess, but you don't see their manipulations because you don't see your own.  It's manipulative to break up with someone and then oversee their future conduct so you can mold them into the girlfriend you hoped they would've been in the past.  It's manipulative to not say Good Bye, move forward, and see how your life shakes out. 

 

I understand both of those impulses, but they stunt your future growth and they don't help her to grow. 

 

I also think that the "nebulous quality" of male-to-female relationships, (meaning that everyone subjectively defines for themselves what it "happiness" and what is "working"), makes them highly attractive for competition-averse individuals.  In math, your answer is either right or wrong - and you derived that answer either quickly or slowly.  That combination of objectivity and time-sensitivity creates a hyper-competitive environment. 

 

But romance and friendships have the seductive pull of non-objectivity and non time-sensitivity, which seems to imply that "No matter what you do, it's right."  Sadly, the only thing they truly rob is time...time that could've been better spent in competitive endeavors, where the real personal growth lies. 

[green_genes]

We broke up because she wanted something that I couldn't accept. I didn't expect her to change because of that, but if she did, I would consider restarting a relationship with her.

Similarly, she wants to be friends and I don't want to be friends with liars and cheaters. If she changes, I would consider being friends with her again.

I can see how that could be considered a manipulation but what's the difference between "manipulation" and "negotiation"? If lying and cheating is not preferable, shouldn't the liar and the cheater be the one to change?

I have no authority over her. I didn't demand that she change. If she's happy with her life and doesn't want to change then she'll "win" and be happy doing her thing and I'll "win" by not having a liar/cheater in my life. That's a win:win, right?

[MMX2010]

We broke up because she wanted something that I couldn't accept. I didn't expect her to change because of that, but if she did, I would consider restarting a relationship with her.

 

Similarly, she wants to be friends and I don't want to be friends with liars and cheaters. If she changes, I would consider being friends with her again.

 

I can see how that could be considered a manipulation but what's the difference between "manipulation" and "negotiation"? If lying and cheating is not preferable, shouldn't the liar and the cheater be the one to change?

 

I have no authority over her. I didn't demand that she change. If she's happy with her life and doesn't want to change then she'll "win" and be happy doing her thing and I'll "win" by not having a liar/cheater in my life. That's a win:win, right?

 

You're not negotiating at all. 

 

I don't ever want to be friends or lovers with child molesters.  Do you know how I communicate this?  By never being friends or lovers with child molesters. 

 

I don't visit child molesters and say, "You know....if you perform this series of ritual forgiveness gestures, and this series of atonement behaviors, then we could be friends or lovers."  Because: (1) I don't ever want to be friends or lovers with child molesters.  And (2) Saying that there are series of behaviors that would allow me to be friends or lovers with child molesters is a contradiction of Statement One. 

 

The contradictory nature of What You Say versus What You Do makes you susceptible to manipulation.  It's sad, on the one hand, that it's that simple - (because knowing this makes you feel foolish).  But it's happy, on the other hand, that it's that simple - (because the solution is painfully simple). 

[green_genes]

But romance and friendships have the seductive pull of non-objectivity and non time-sensitivity, which seems to imply that "No matter what you do, it's right."  Sadly, the only thing they truly rob is time...time that could've been better spent in competitive endeavors, where the real personal growth lies. 

 

It has been nice to get back to focusing on my own endeavors.

 

I had a couple short relationships with girls right after my divorce was finalized. After the second one, and I wish I could remember the feeling that triggered it, I became a lot less interested in relationships and more interested in adventuring off on my own.

 

A year and a half I took a shot in the dark and asked Sally out. It took me a while to get my head back on straight after we split. I had a GREAT summer in 2014 actually. I think it was October when she contacted me the first time and the more and more we talked the better/worse things got. That's probably like drugs or alcohol: you get hooked and get that high and then the crash, use more get the high and the crash, etc. It's as if my experience with Sally is an unstable sinusoidal function with increasing highs, increasing lows, but the average result is zero. I'd like to think I could eventually earn a relationship that has a net-positive trend.

So there's no redemption? I shouldn't forgive her (or anyone else for that matter) no matter what they do to change their behavior?

 

Are you pro-prison and anti-rehabilitation?

 

When I've listened to podcasts where Stef talks to parents who have abused their children or children who have confronted their abusive parents, Stef makes it sound like there are ways to change one's abusive behavior and ask for forgiveness. Are the formerly abused never to give forgiveness under no circumstances whatsoever?

[MMX2010]

 I'd like to think I could eventually earn a relationship that has a net-positive trend.

 

 

No one earns such a relationships.  They build themselves up to be the best they can be, and the relationship either appears or it doesn't.  Building yourself up to get such a relationship invalidates the building-up process. 

 

 

 

 

So there's no redemption? I shouldn't forgive her (or anyone else for that matter) no matter what they do to change their behavior?

 

It doesn't matter whether there's redemption or not. 

 

It matters whether What You Say is matched by What You Do.  You can't ignore that to focus on whether there's redemption for her.

 

 

 

 

Are you pro-prison and anti-rehabilitation?

 

When I've listened to podcasts where Stef talks to parents who have abused their children or children who have confronted their abusive parents, Stef makes it sound like there are ways to change one's abusive behavior and ask for forgiveness. Are the formerly abused never to give forgiveness under no circumstances whatsoever?

 

Neither of those questions matter, because Sally isn't in prison.  Nor is Sally your abusive parent. 

 

What matters is that you weaken yourself by keeping her in your life in any way, including monitoring her behavior to see whether she's redeemed herself.