Marshall B Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 My wife has one of those families where everyone kind of gets along but nothing of substance is ever talked about. They are all "Christians". I've been to the family Xmas for 10 years and Jesus's name is never brought up outside of the prayer. Weather, football, kids, yes. They are the complete opposite of philosophically minded. Hard working, Christian conservative, God fearing etc. That being said they are extremely nice people. Nice in that fucked up cowardly sort of way. Agree to disagree and never bring up anything that someone could possibly get offended about. Anyways I'm not exactly filling that role. After being agnostic for most of my life Ive recently become an atheist. It all makes sense. I always disliked religion but never saw it as evil. After reading Molyneux, watching hitchens, Sam Harris, Dawkins etc it's such a no brainer and it's become really hard to tolerate this dangerous stupidity. Does anyone else have any experience as to how to handle this. They are great grandparents and descent people outside of this. I wrote a long email to them expressing how I feel and the damage it did to me as a kiddo and they responded with "we'll pray for you". It kills me. Every time my mother-inlaw calls my wife I cringe. It's made my wife(who is an ex weakass Christian who had never even read the bible but now agnostic) feel caught in the middle. I'm wanting her to step up and say something to them not because I cant do it myself but more so because I know I would do the same for her. I'll gladly talk to them but it seems like she should be a little pissed off as well. She feels like she's being torn. It's me vs them kind of thing. I confronted my mom recently about being an atheist. She thinks I'm going to hell and it's my choice to do so. So I'm kind of done with her unless she changes her mind. Really don't like hanging out with people who think it's just for me to burn in hell for all eternity. That's an elephant I can't ignore. Statists are no different I get it. But in the ole Bible Belt it's the God stuff that kills me the most. Can you fucking believe the times we live in. I have to remind myself daily that there is no better time than now. We won the time lottery as stef said. But some people make it pretty tough to remember that. 1
powder Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 what would you like from your in-laws? how would this all look in an ideal scenario for you?
Carl Green Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Really don't like hanging out with people who think it's just for me to burn in hell for all eternity. Your best bet in handling all this is to make sure you're not assuming what anyone believes. It's best to hear what someone believes directly from them. So if you have a suspicion that someone might think it's just for you to burn in hell, make sure you ask them before acting on that suspicion in any way or attempting to determine how you feel about them.
powder Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Good point Carl. Most Christians that I know are what I would call 'soft' Christians and do not adhere to the eternal damnation interpretation. also, the "universalist' movement (everyone gets redemption) is gaining a lot of traction in the Christian world these days. I don't find this position to be rational or morally sustainable but it is an upgrade and the nice people in the faith tend to like it.
James Dean Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 (obviously totally just my opinion) the best thing to do is to come clean about it to your in laws. Just like with your mom, it sounds like you told her how you felt and she attacked you (which I hate to gloss over, I have a lot of sympathy for that) but it gave you closure. If your wife feels caught in the middle, she should tell that to her family. If you're having issues with people's religious beliefs, tell them about it. Their reaction will help you get closure, if they reveal the ugly demon behind the pleasant facade, it often gives you clarity to the next step, weather that's cutting of contact or whatever you feel is appropriate.
Marshall B Posted February 5, 2015 Author Posted February 5, 2015 Much thanks for the responses. Ideally?... For them to become voluntarists and become freedomain radio listener/donars. But that's not too likely so best case scenario is we discuss things openly and try either agree or disagree. I'm the only one that ever brings any of this stuff up. I'll keep being the annoying gadfly I suppose. I just want honesty and a real relationship. I want them to speak openly about their faith. Especially if I'm possibly in danger of burning for all eternity. And yes they believe that. I asked my mother and she 100% believes I am. She said it was a choice I made. I tried to explain to her that it feels more like a threat than a choice but she couldn't see it. She didn't add much value to my life at this point anyways so it's not too much of a change. Rarely saw my kids, rarely ever talked, and she hasn't bothered discussing this stuff with me since we talked which was over a month ago. It's almost as if she's defooed from me. My in-laws when asked if I'm going to hell take the "that's up to God approach". So they know he's real and everything in the bible is true but not sure of what's going to happen to my soul even though it clearly states that it's in pretty bad shape. That's kind of a cowardly response I think.
powder Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 Much thanks for the responses. Ideally?... For them to become voluntarists and become freedomain radio listener/donars. But that's not too likely so best case scenario is we discuss things openly and try either agree or disagree. I'm the only one that ever brings any of this stuff up. I'll keep being the annoying gadfly I suppose. I just want honesty and a real relationship. I want them to speak openly about their faith. Especially if I'm possibly in danger of burning for all eternity. And yes they believe that. I asked my mother and she 100% believes I am. She said it was a choice I made. I tried to explain to her that it feels more like a threat than a choice but she couldn't see it. She didn't add much value to my life at this point anyways so it's not too much of a change. Rarely saw my kids, rarely ever talked, and she hasn't bothered discussing this stuff with me since we talked which was over a month ago. It's almost as if she's defooed from me. My in-laws when asked if I'm going to hell take the "that's up to God approach". So they know he's real and everything in the bible is true but not sure of what's going to happen to my soul even though it clearly states that it's in pretty bad shape. That's kind of a cowardly response I think. I'm sorry that you are not closer to your mom. The reason I asked what an ideal relationship to you would look like with your in-laws is because I wanted you to consider how much value they bring to you and your family. I never know what to think when people use phrases like 'really nice people'. Does that mean friendly with good social skills? Cuz that describes every politician and psychopath out there. Are they virtuous? If they are dishonest cowards that are not loving or supportive or empathetic then that certainly makes it easier to decide what kind of relationship you want to have with them and how close you want them to be to your children right? If they are good people then it may be worth having a close relationship while sharing your ideas with them and not flaming them all at once. It takes time to shift your mind and your emotional attachments, which is what 'faith' is. If they are good people and they are important to your wife then why not talk to them about their beliefs and listen to them with empathy and interest and curiosity? just my 2 cents. good luck
Carl Green Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 My in-laws when asked if I'm going to hell take the "that's up to God approach". So they know he's real and everything in the bible is true but not sure of what's going to happen to my soul even though it clearly states that it's in pretty bad shape. That's kind of a cowardly response I think. Did you specifically ask if they "know" he's real and everything in the bible is "true", or are you making an assumption of their beliefs here?
DarkJello Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 I am religious. But I am not in a "cool kids" church, as it were. Sometimes ignoramuses pray that I will turn from my "sinful" path, before burning in hell. It is pure silliness. (I am imperfect of course, just like everyone else). Don't waste a second poisoning your own happiness by choosing anger, pride, and/or contempt towards that type of person. I feel sad for them, as they are damned. Literally, emotionally, and probs in other ways too. Over the years I have gotten along just fine with 100s of different subcultures, even if we don't agree on many topics. Go along to get along is standard operating procedures for many/most extended families. Why do you want everyone to think and behave your way? Why are u so angry? I am surprised no one has challenged your judgemental thinking in this thread. Introspection should be your focus, IMO. Yes I have been very blunt, and hopefully it is not received as a personal attack. But rather as a chance to evolve. Apologies if way ruder than I meant.
Marshall B Posted February 7, 2015 Author Posted February 7, 2015 Powder-- Spot on. Friendly with good social skills equals nice. That's what they are. I gotta be honest and think through what I'm going to say. Carl-- yes they "know" and it's all true but "that was a different time and culture" is their response to the evil doings within the bible. DJ-- I'm not sure I know what "cool kids" church means. I'm honestly confused at your post. You state that sort of religious way of thinking is pure silliness and to not waste time then suggest the go along get along route. I'm probably missing something. Why do I want people to think like me?...um becasue it's logical, consistent and nonviolent. What I see in my friends, family, culture, relationships is a lot of wasted potential and that's what's so frustrating. Give up the ghosts and there'd be something real to work from. No awkward topics just reality. If there were magical leprechauns that society was worshipping and praising Id want to shit on them to. Why? Cause fuck superstition that's why. Why fuck superstition?...because it's violence against me in the next life. Which that life does not exist but they think it does and if they happen to be correct in there thinking(which of course they or not) I would be in a completely different(hotter) place than them for all eternity. It's hard for me to get close to someone like that? That should make anyone a little angry.
DarkJello Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 DJ--I'm honestly confused at your post. You state that sort of religious way of thinking is pure silliness and to not waste time then suggest the go along get along route. I'm probably missing something.Why do I want people to think like me?...um becasue it's logical, consistent and nonviolent. What I see in my friends, family, culture, relationships is a lot of wasted potential and that's what's so frustrating. Give up the ghosts and there'd be something real to work from. No awkward topics just reality. If there were magical leprechauns that society was worshipping and praising Id want to shit on them to. Why? Cause fuck superstition that's why. Why fuck superstition?...because it's violence against me in the next life. Which that life does not exist but they think it does and if they happen to be correct in there thinking(which of course they or not) I would be in a completely different(hotter) place than them for all eternity. It's hard for me to get close to someone like that? That should make anyone a little angry. Super judgemental people, of whatever stripe, should be tolerated. You would go along to get along with the extended family, unless they are actually terrible/evil/bad/vile/nasty etc. In my experience, extended families keep things light and fluffy when they have a reunion because each person and nuclear family have many different personalities, situations, and opinions. A positive event is maintained. If the majority want to discuss complex hot button topics, then I am sure in that scenario they would do so. Sounds like your extended family is normal to me. You are frustrated over a large list. I really hope that angst aint weighing you down frequently, because it will poison your own happiness. Only you can walk your path. Only I can walk my path. Only "Uncle Bob" can walk his path. etc. The reality is that there will ALWAYS be sensitive and awkward topics between humans. Being angry at the 100s of millions of different ways people view reality does not seem very productive to me, especially if ones goal is to uncover truth. You finish off with quite a few angry sounding sentences. Tranquility is logical. But anger, at least in my life, has NOT resulted in good decisions. To me it is the lizard brain rising up and taking control. I believe you are better off putting the vast majority of focus on improving yourself, next on being the best person you can be for your nuclear family, a bit of effort on improving your extended family, and a smidgeon on making the world a better place. (Making yourself and your family the top 2 priorities is actually the best way to improve your city, county, state, and country anyway). Appreciate that you did not take my comments as a personal attack. Opine on the above paragraphs, if desired. Laterz.
Carl Green Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 Carl-- yes they "know" and it's all true but "that was a different time and culture" is their response to the evil doings within the bible. Okay. Just checking for assumptions again. As for the general topic, I think "christians" is too broad of a term to say that christianity is bad. You could say, a christian that thinks his own personal experiences are valid for all other people in the world, is 'bad', but to apply any qualifier to "christianity" other than "a set of people claiming to be a christian" is out of place. 1
Marshall B Posted February 10, 2015 Author Posted February 10, 2015 Jello-- Thanks for the feedback. I can go along to get along with the best of them. Talk sports, weather, movies etc no prob. The problem is how often I'm having to do it. If I saw them once a month it wouldn't be a problem but it's far more than that. And as far as her grandparents and extended family, no I don't care to discuss the philosophy of liberty and atheism with them. It's her brothers, sisters, etc. My kids play with their kids and the grandparents are active. Bottom line is I'm not being open and honest enough with them. Not that I always have to be but it's worth another try. One email and one conversation probably isn't enough. They do provide value to me. It's not a strong relationship but there's value in keeping whatever it is in tact. And that may be ok. The lack of serious important conversation just eats at me a bit. I need to learn how to bring it in a more compassionate empathetic way.
DarkJello Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Jello-- Thanks for the feedback. I can go along to get along with the best of them. Talk sports, weather, movies etc no prob. The problem is how often I'm having to do it. If I saw them once a month it wouldn't be a problem but it's far more than that. And as far as her grandparents and extended family, no I don't care to discuss the philosophy of liberty and atheism with them. It's her brothers, sisters, etc. My kids play with their kids and the grandparents are active. Bottom line is I'm not being open and honest enough with them. Not that I always have to be but it's worth another try. One email and one conversation probably isn't enough. They do provide value to me. It's not a strong relationship but there's value in keeping whatever it is in tact. And that may be ok. The lack of serious important conversation just eats at me a bit. I need to learn how to bring it in a more compassionate empathetic way. That makes a LOT more sense. My extended family gets together once every two years. You are rubbing shoulders all the time, and thus the fluffiness is probs beyond taxing. (And too many taxes are of the devil, figuratively speaking). I recommend meditation. But it may take multiple episodes over days or weeks. Perchance find 1 Libertarian topic, and bring it up for discussion amongst a few of the adults. Maybe that could become a thing. Most peeps, IMO, are willfully ignorant. And no amount of poking and prodding will get them to change. Just my 2 centavos.
Jer Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 Good point Carl. Most Christians that I know are what I would call 'soft' Christians and do not adhere to the eternal damnation interpretation. also, the "universalist' movement (everyone gets redemption) is gaining a lot of traction in the Christian world these days. I don't find this position to be rational or morally sustainable but it is an upgrade and the nice people in the faith tend to like it. I've told quite a few of those types that they're not Christians because they don't believe the bible (and that's good). The Bible says every word is God-breathed and Jesus repeated this so if you don't agree with Jesus you're not a Christian imo... I find these fake Christians even more annoying than the "the earth is 6000 years old crowd" because their nonsense isn't even based on a 3000 year old story book. They know that the book Christianity was founded on is bullshit but they still want to believe so they reinterpret everything that science has shown to be nonsense. At least the fundamentalists have faulty principles. When I told my mom I think the bible is not true she replied with "Just fake it until it's real"
ResurrectMyself Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 I always disliked religion but never saw it as evil. After reading Molyneux, watching hitchens, Sam Harris, Dawkins etc it's such a no brainer and it's become really hard to tolerate this dangerous stupidity. Does anyone else have any experience as to how to handle this. I've been in exactly this situation after being "deconverted" by Dawkins and Hitchens, this feeling you have right now will fade with time. Try to be empathetic to your religious family and understand that it is hard and painful for older people to let go of something they've been with their entire lives. It is unlikely you're going to convince an entire family to stop believing what they believe, it is much more likely if you raise your children to be thinkers, they will grow up and reject the religion of their grandparents. Also try not to drive a wedge between your wife and her parents, if tension runs high and they point a finger at you this will only impact your relationship with your wife (and perhaps children) in a negative way.
Marshall B Posted February 28, 2015 Author Posted February 28, 2015 Much thx RN that really helped. And Jer is the bottom line the fact that death is overwhelming to some people? That carrot of eternal life is something people don't want to give up. But they also have to function within a somewhat rational world where we've realized the big book is obviously full of silliness. So they morph/pick n chose/ignore certain aspects and accepting others forming their own little God/religion inside their own little brain which is not "keeping it real" with yourself. I know nothing about the Big Bang or pretty much evolution for that matter. But what I can comprehend seems to make a little more sense than.........magic happened! I so much wish we lived in a world where people could just be genuinely curious and say "I dont know?" ....but isn't it a cool mystery! Isn't it awesome!
Jer Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Much thx RN that really helped. And Jer is the bottom line the fact that death is overwhelming to some people? That carrot of eternal life is something people don't want to give up. But they also have to function within a somewhat rational world where we've realized the big book is obviously full of silliness. So they morph/pick n chose/ignore certain aspects and accepting others forming their own little God/religion inside their own little brain which is not "keeping it real" with yourself. I know nothing about the Big Bang or pretty much evolution for that matter. But what I can comprehend seems to make a little more sense than.........magic happened! I so much wish we lived in a world where people could just be genuinely curious and say "I dont know?" ....but isn't it a cool mystery! Isn't it awesome! Well said. I think this clip illustrates the kind of wishful thinking people fall into.
Marshall B Posted March 5, 2015 Author Posted March 5, 2015 Wow that's good stuff. Was this movie good? Looks good from this clip.
Jer Posted March 6, 2015 Posted March 6, 2015 Wow that's good stuff. Was this movie good? Looks good from this clip. It's a comedy and not nearly serious as you might think from that clip but I'd recommend it.
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