PreDeadMan Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Hello, I'm having a discussion with people on a facebook thread regarding capitalism. I'm having a little trouble responding to this claim. "True communism had nothing to do with soviet russia. People aren't given the same opportunities in capitalism. Government and monetary systems are a form social slavery. White privledge is real. Competitive capitalism is a stage in capitalism that no longer exists. While I like Stefan molyneux blaming statists or statism for the sole reason for "crony capitalism" is false. Capitalism forces concentration of resources and capital, inevitably, there is no such thing as voluntarily participating in the market system. The only reason why public education exists is to uphold the status quo. Science and technology advances were possible before capitalism... But some advances have been slowed or quickened by the profit motive. Capitalism doesn't make a human work better or harder... Macroscopicly it trains individuals to do simple minded tasks efficiently. It stiffles human creativity. Oh lastly and probably most important..... Human well being and a healthy economy is tied to purchasing power within a capitalist system, so raise the f***ing minimum wage... Why, because .001%, 400 people OWN half of the wealth in the US, not only that but they save cash/capital to excess because they can't spend it all. The US economy is 70% consumer spending... Raise the f***ing minimum wage. Ohhh and... Because of capitalism women were forced to work, and working any job should not be what makes anyone who they are." I'm just curious if people on here could come up with a cogent response to that lol. Thanks for looking!
bishal Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 This is like more then 10 books you are talking about.. so why don't you just copy paste each title in google and check for libertarian thought on them yourself. But just for brief understanding here are some links you can use: http://fee.org/publications/page/cliches-of-progressivism http://tomwoods.com/blog/ I can understand if someone hates Capitalism and Communism equally as an starting point but when if an so called educated guys still hate both equally i believe they have emotional problem with the word 'Capitalism' (public school brainwashing) and if you hate something emotionally no knowledge can change it instead you will be more against it as more evidence supports it. Just be aware when arguing with these kinds of guys!
TheRobin Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 As the saying goes "What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence". Unless he actually makes a case for any of his claims, rebuttal is neither needed nor possible. And the fact that the author just goes on asserting things without hestiation and seemingly without noticing that none of what he sais constitutes an argument based on either evidence or reasoning I think you'd rather have to talk about methodology first before debating concretes, cause atm he seems to be incapable of doing so anyway, so you'd just be wasting your time respnding to that as if it was an actual argument. 3
Devon Gibbons Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Regarding minimum wage, send him this link with the message, "I can see how you see the minimum wage as helping, but after watching this, I think of it another way now". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LLr5oWfoWRY# He's on the edge of trolldom there, but maybe showing him some empathy in face of his emotionally filled religious possession it's possible he could come to the light and divert the totality of his attention from wanking off and trying to make an argument at the same time to solely trying to make an argument. he's overloaded you with claims for a reason, because he cannot reason any of them. I recommend for you to read The Anatomy of the State accessable at mises.org written by Murray Rothbard. Thomas Sowell is a good economist to explain that the minimum wage doesn't work. Check out his work. Eventually you may want to check out one of the many editions of his Basic Economics books, or Economic Fallacies. Don't let him take you for too long a ride though and if you don't know how to respond, that's fine. Just say that you prefer to continue at a later time when you have more information. There's a danger into getting into an argument to prove yourself. As this man displays. He may not be interested in truth, but that's what you want. 1
dayna j. Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 You're probably having difficulty responding to this "claim" because almost every sentence contains a new, unsubstantiated and only tangentially related claim. I counted 16 discrete propositions before I lost interest in reading. This is not a debate, or even a coherent exchange of ideas. This is an example of verbal diarrhoea, which is meant to disarm you with rapidity and emotional intensity. Either this person simply doesn't know how to engage in a productive, mutually beneficial debate, or they are uninterested in doing so. In either case, it is clear that you are being railroaded. My advice: Disengage--Unless you want to continue to serve as a conduit for this individual's misplaced anger.
Dylan Lawrence Moore Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Hello, I'm having a discussion with people on a facebook thread regarding capitalism. I'm having a little trouble responding to this claim. "True communism had nothing to do with soviet russia. So what is true communism?
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 "True communism had everything to do with soviet Russia. People are given the same opportunities in capitalism. Government is a form social slavery but monetary systems aren't . White privilege is not real. Competitive capitalism is a stage in capitalism that still exists and always will. Blaming statists or statism for the sole reason for "crony capitalism" is correct. Capitalism does not force concentration of resources and capital, inevitably, there is always such a thing as voluntarily participating in the market system. The only reason why public education exists is to uphold the status quo. Science and technology advances were possible before and because of capitalism... But most advances have been quickened by the profit motive. Capitalism makes a human work better ... Socialism/Communism trains individuals to do simple minded tasks, often inefficiently. It stifles human creativity. Oh lastly and probably most important..... Human well being and a healthy economy is tied to purchasing power within a capitalist system, so don't raise the f***ing minimum wage... Why, because is illogical to artificially destroy people's lives in one area to pretend to improve people's lives in another and coercion is immoral. The US economy is 70% consumer spending... Get rid of the f***ing minimum wage and stop hurting people. Ohhh and... Because of capitalism women were more free to work but in socialism working any job makes anyone who they are." 5
AynRand Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 "True communism had everything to do with soviet Russia. People are given the same opportunities in capitalism. Government is a form social slavery but monetary systems aren't . White privilege is not real. Competitive capitalism is a stage in capitalism that still exists and always will. Blaming statists or statism for the sole reason for "crony capitalism" is correct. Capitalism does not force concentration of resources and capital, inevitably, there is always such a thing as voluntarily participating in the market system. The only reason why public education exists is to uphold the status quo. Science and technology advances were possible before and because of capitalism... But most advances have been quickened by the profit motive. Capitalism makes a human work better ... Socialism/Communism trains individuals to do simple minded tasks, often inefficiently. It stifles human creativity. Oh lastly and probably most important..... Human well being and a healthy economy is tied to purchasing power within a capitalist system, so don't raise the f***ing minimum wage... Why, because is illogical to artificially destroy people's lives in one area to pretend to improve people's lives in another and coercion is immoral. The US economy is 70% consumer spending... Get rid of the f***ing minimum wage and stop hurting people. Ohhh and... Because of capitalism women were more free to work but in socialism working any job makes anyone who they are." Nice.
NotDarkYet Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 If people can't be trusted with freedom, then they can't be trusted with power. 5
fractional slacker Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 That whole paragraph is argument by adjective and assertion, and which has already been pointed out: it's dozens of conclusions about dozens of subjects. There is no rational discourse going on. The first sentence starts with propaganda by using the adjective true to describe communism. Communism is an inconsistent and contradictory method for organization because it denies self ownership and property rights for everyone except the ruling class. 2
yagami Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 As the saying goes "What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence". I really like that. Hello, I'm having a discussion with people on a facebook thread regarding capitalism. I'm having a little trouble responding to this claim. "True communism had nothing to do with soviet russia. People aren't given the same opportunities in capitalism. Government and monetary systems are a form social slavery. White privledge is real. Competitive capitalism is a stage in capitalism that no longer exists. While I like Stefan molyneux blaming statists or statism for the sole reason for "crony capitalism" is false. Capitalism forces concentration of resources and capital, inevitably, there is no such thing as voluntarily participating in the market system. The only reason why public education exists is to uphold the status quo. Science and technology advances were possible before capitalism... But some advances have been slowed or quickened by the profit motive. Capitalism doesn't make a human work better or harder... Macroscopicly it trains individuals to do simple minded tasks efficiently. It stiffles human creativity. Oh lastly and probably most important..... Human well being and a healthy economy is tied to purchasing power within a capitalist system, so raise the f***ing minimum wage... Why, because .001%, 400 people OWN half of the wealth in the US, not only that but they save cash/capital to excess because they can't spend it all. The US economy is 70% consumer spending... Raise the f***ing minimum wage. Ohhh and... Because of capitalism women were forced to work, and working any job should not be what makes anyone who they are." I'm just curious if people on here could come up with a cogent response to that lol. Thanks for looking! This guy makes a lot of claims without any evidence to back it up. I could rebut every point he made here but I dont have the patience and I think you would be wasting your time as well to rebut this even if you could. Trying to convince people that capitalism is good for practical reasons will never work. You need to try to moral argument and if that doesn't work at least get him to agree to not hit his children and not imprint his ideals of socialism onto his children.
Lingum Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 I doubt this person could change his mind based on reason. He is obviously insane. He hears his own political views echoed by society at large (politicians, pundits, students, teachers), and yet he claims the society he lives is its political antithetical. That's delusional. All of the political policies he believes in already exists, only to a lesser degree. Somehow, that makes them polar opposite. Someone gives you 5 dollars, you were robbed. Someone give you 10 dollars, you were not robbed. Facts don't matter, which is why he has no trouble making extraordinary claims with no qualification. "White privilege is real. Next topic." People that have the capacity to change their minds, will experience some cognitive dissonance when conceptual opposites come out of their mouths in quick succession, and when they struggle to describe something their mind is already made up about. Competitive capitalism is a stage in capitalism that no longer exists. Competition is what any layman thinks of when they hear the word Capitalism. Despite that, he doesn't flinch describing the opposite as Capitalism, as well. This is forgotten when he states While I like Stefan molyneux blaming statists or statism for the sole reason for "crony capitalism" is false. Science and technology advances were possible before capitalism... But some advances have been slowed or quickened by the profit motive. He must've applied a lot of selective memory to not remember any advances in science and technology his entire lifetime. He contradicts himself the very next sentence. It's also interesting that he makes a fail-safe statement that would never be wrong. "When you do X, the car goes faster sometimes, and slower sometimes." Nothing compares to the finishing line, which is so bizarrely out of place, that it could only be a direct insight into his life. He has no career achievements or prospects, right? (...)and working any job should not be what makes anyone who they are. Normally, when people unquestioningly make assertions to me, I just ask questions that undermine each individual assertion. It's pretty easy to do with people who have no experience with critical thinking, because they don't know the difference between sentiment and evidence, rhetoric and reason. Their terms are undefined and their gaps of logic are filled with magic. It's pretty easy to push someone like that off their feet, by just highlighting any obscurity. In this case, start from the beginning: Why wasn't the communism in Soviety true? Where can we find true communism today? Is there a true capitalism and a false capitalism? However, I'm not sure if that's possible to do on Facebook, and with a person this delusional. You could of course try to turn it on its head. Write favorably about capitalism and negatively about communism with the same level of confidence, no explanations, just assertions.
PreDeadMan Posted February 6, 2015 Author Posted February 6, 2015 Thank you all so much for your input! I greatly appreciate it and going forward I believe I will continue as I usually do with arguments from morality. There is a contradiction in his rant he admits government is slavery but then later on in his rant he argues for a minimum wage which is the initiation of force against peaceful people voluntarily negotiating for a wage. I took the bait and was taking questions left and right from like 3 statists I think I've managed to use my matrix sophist dodging skills and I have to say in my honest opinion I did fairly well lol. If anyone wants to see the thread it's right here tell me if you can see it you can literally see EVERYTHING typed from everyone. My name is Devin in the thread. https://www.facebook.com/joseph.boros/posts/10205887828617599?comment_id=10205898273998727¬if_t=feed_comment_reply
Matthew Ed Moran Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 You did great, but OMG what in the hell are you arguing with, chimps?
PreDeadMan Posted February 6, 2015 Author Posted February 6, 2015 it is frustrating but... eh.... It's a good arguing exercise I guess I'm taking what I learned from various podcasters, authors, throughout the years and seeing how well I fair on the social medias.
Romulox Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 If you are looking for contradictions in his rant you need not go further than "blaming statists or statism for the sole reason for "crony capitalism" is false". Though the definition of crony capitalism may vary depending on who you ask, most people would agree with the Wikipedia definition: "Crony capitalism is a term describing an economy in which success in business depends on close relationships between business people and government officials. It may be exhibited by favoritism in the distribution of legal permits, government grants, special tax breaks, or other forms of state interventionism. I would be very curious to hear your friend describe how an economy that depends on close relationships between business people and government officials can function without government officials.
Matthew Ed Moran Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 "it is frustrating but... eh.... It's a good arguing exercise I guess I'm taking what I learned from various podcasters, authors, throughout the years and seeing how well I fair on the social medias." Yea, I've done that before. But I think social media is usually the bottom of the barrel in terms of logic and reasoning. Still, can be useful to hone the debate skills.
PreDeadMan Posted February 6, 2015 Author Posted February 6, 2015 The discussion still is going on I thought we were going to close this crap out ::sighs:: I suffered through like 1 hour of the what if scenarios in a stateless society it's frustrating I did mention at one point I have no idea what will happen in the future nobody can predict it there are millions of minds that will solve complex social problems I'm not the central planner that will solve everything because that would be an argument for a dictatorship.
Matthew Ed Moran Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 The principle of diminishing returns is relevant here.
yagami Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 You can answer all what if questions this way. Imagine you are an entrepreneur in a free society and your challenge is to find solution to the lack of military defense. The first thing you would have to do is put in place extreme measurements to ensure if you ever went outside any of your strict guidelines you company would be seriously hurt or completely destroyed. You need these extreme consequences because what you are doing is so potentially extremely dangerous to society. For every possible scenario anyone comes up with you would have to put in a change in your policy to make sure that couldnt happen. If you are unable to make society feel safe enough with you your business will fail. This is the same for all these free society questions. Entrepreneurs will come up with solutions and they will have to come up with win win scenarios for everyone involved. To the degree there ia potential corruption will be the degree at which failsafes will have to be in place. Simple ask the person asking the question what would make them feel comfortable with paying for a service from a business in a free society. Make them work to figure out how they would solve the problem then (hopefully) they will see how every problem can be solved peacefully. 1
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