Lack of Rational Support System

[TheW_nderer]

Hello all!

 

I think some of you may recall, or can still probably see my post in forum entitled "What constitutes romantic love?" Inside there I expressed my relationship woes and subsequent end of my relationship with my long-term boyfriend. In that post I really appreciated the openness and advice given to me by you guys and it really helped me look back and reflect on my relationship.

 

In the thread, I discussed how my "virtuous" relationship seemed to be falling(and did) for no reason at all, but I now realize that wasn't the case. From about a week ago until now, I have been able to deeply reflect upon what my relationship was based on and have come to some major issues/red-flags that I overlooked, or compromised on. 

 

After waking up from even more shitty sleep since this whole thing has started around Xmas, I looked up some FDR podcasts about relationships and finally settled on one podcast in which Molyneux essentially rips a caller for choosing to be in a relationship with someone who was unfit to be loved by them. In the podcast he asks the caller to name the virtues that the person had upon meeting them the caused him to choose to be in a relationship with that person, and the person, like myself, came up empty-handed. He asked the caller to name things about the person(not what the person did for them, but who they are) which were virtues to which that person was responding, and he couldn't come up with much and upon my reflection I couldn't either. 

 

My ex was/is a pretty conflicted guy all in all, with initially apparent issues with self-esteem, confidence, being rational, being self-motivated, living with purpose, etc, and those were the things that I wanted to help him with, because I saw "potential". And as time went on, he seemed to get there and that's when I believe I thought I loved him. He described his problems with his parents, and how he lacked deep friendships and could only bond with his friends when he drank; even asking for help in the drinking area, which we worked through cutting his drinking substantially while finding better things to replace that with. 

 

 

From the very beginning of my relationship, my ex was someone whose life was at bottom and I came in helping him to pick up all of the pieces, with little required in return aside from having someone regularly around, growing and loving me for my virtues. He always described me as a perfect girlfriend, his best friend, someone who knew more about him and understood him better than anyone else, but I couldn't say all of those things in return, but I was satisfied with his presence and companionship and I somehow mixed my objectivist ideals into it by saying that I should just love him selfishly because I wanted to and not because he "made" me happy, because my happiness is only mine to achieve and so that was our relationship. And so this is what I've done, and I did it to the best of my ability, but all the while, I feel like he resented me for it. He seemed to resent my being capable of helping him. He would ask questions and seemingly resent the answers but still go along with them. He also seemed to be always competing with me, and resented that I always won. Whenever I would say something I had accomplished or done, he would always come back with "wow that's great" and then discuss how he needed to improve himself in that way, or how badly he was doing in that. He would complain that "I hate that you always win arguments" or "I wish I could help you, you always have everything figured out" and none of these things were really said as a positive. 

 

So he "improved" himself. He changed his style, made tons of friends, got several jobs, started studying Chinese, etc. All things that he was initially against, and then throughout our relationship began to long for and go after and I thought that was an awesome thing, and my love for him grew, because I saw these as outstanding things to do and he thanked me for my encouragement along the way. And we grew closer and closer.

 

The whole time, I feel like I gave him everything, even to the point that, when he really started to feel confident and sure of himself, doing well at his job, etc, he said that he wanted to take a break from "us" so that he could focus on himself and doing his job well and I supported him wholeheartedly, even though it hurt a bit deep down. I knew that letting him do things on his own was a what someone who loves someone does so that we didn't become codependent. When we decided to do all of that, he would start to exaggerate how busy he was; naming lists of things that he had to do in order to seem like he was doing much more than everyone else, when I realize it was just his way of trying to seem relevant on his own. And I never brought it up to him. But ever since I met him, he always seemed to try to make himself seem bigger than he was by bragging about the expensive college he went to and his rich grandmother, but those things weren't things he ever worked for or achieved by himself. Kind of inherited status that wasn't really his and wasn't really status; his life was very simple(besides traveling), his parents are very well off. 

 

So to fast forward to today, I feel a bit heartbroken that I gave so much to my ex and gained very little from him in a long-lasting sense.  And in the end was coldly broken up with for someone who has done nothing but hurt him. It's hard for me to reconcile that this person appreciated me so little that he would so quickly let me go, while also at the same time realizing that the relationship wasn't really something that enhanced my life. Everything that I began to value in him seems to have drained from him in my eyes, the moment he had any hesitations about being with me. 

I believe that he wants the other girl, because like he said in a seeming Freudian slip, "she's as fucked up as I am" and "she's like a drug" and I feel like the drug is the freedom to be mediocre or to be himself. Perhaps he is unconsciously seeking his parents' relationship which consists of an alcoholic, childlike father who hoards to the point that there is only a small path that runs through their house surrounded by towers of trash a clutter and a mother who lets him get away with it while also, seems to live in her own reality that ignores the chaos that surrounds her in order to have someone there for her. His mother still babies him, makes every meal, makes his bed, does his laundry, etc. His mother seemed to like me in person, but when he told her about the other girl, he told me that his mom said that he should go after it(the other relationship). I feel like that says a lot about that relationship. 

 

I realize that my relationship was ultimately a compromise of my principles and virtues in exchange for a companion and seeing improvement and growth of someone else, with sex and emotional stimulation all mixed in. But my dilemma is that I knew all of these things about my ex and still entered a relationship, still stayed in the relationship and even fought for it in the end.  I am having a hard time letting the idea of our relationship go, even though I know that it is not what I truly want/need. I know it, I believe I understand everything that has happened, but am I just using these reasons as a way to make myself feel better about being inadequate? I feel ashamed that I wasn't the one who broke up with him for someone better, not that he broke up with me for someone worse, and I am still jealous of what this other girl might inherit because of all love I gave him, even though I know that whatever he could give her would not be enough for me. I'm really confused about my feelings now... I feel like he's an asshole for leaving, and then I feel like I was an asshole for loving him expecting nothing in return. 

 

Now I am here, with all of these ideas, desperately seeking a rational person with whom I can confide, but am left with friends who can only give the advice "just feel the pain" or "time heals all things" "maybe he will come back", but I need more and my thoughts are running with the logic that I have presented here. Why do you think he responded in this way?

Could anyone give me any insight into this? 

If you don't want to respond in the feed, feel free to private message or Skype me. I really need a rational support system, but it's hard to come by where I live. 

 

 

[neeeel]

you must have been getting something out of your relationship. Otherwise, you would have left , no? Even if that something was security ( or illusion of security) or a project to work on ( improving your boyfriend), or whatever it was. I think it would be important to identify that. And also, what attracted you to him in the first place. You have said that you cant identify any virtues that he had that drew you to him, and you list things that could be seen as negative about him ( issues with self-esteem, confidence, being rational, being self-motivated, living with purpose), but I dont see anywhere anything about why you liked him, and wanted to be with him. There must have been something? If not, then you probably need to look deeper into why it is that you still ended up with him.

 

Do you think its possible that you were deluding yourself? That things werent as rosy as you thought they were? And that what you thought were your virtues, actually werent? I am not suggesting that you are not virtuous, but we all have pictures of ourselves that arent 100% correct. You say you were getting closer and closer, but in reality, it seems like you were getting further apart, as shown by him wanting "time for himself".

 

I mentioned this before, but having someone that you want to change, is not love. I am not surprised he resented you for it. And I guess thats why he left, in the end. The other girl was probably more relaxed about his perceived character flaws. 

 

What is love, to you? Not what you have heard stefan say about it. You may have adopted that version of love, but I would guess there are still some other versions kicking about , long held beliefs about love and relationships.

 

How much like your father was this guy? 

[TheW_nderer]

you must have been getting something out of your relationship. Otherwise, you would have left , no? Even if that something was security ( or illusion of security) or a project to work on ( improving your boyfriend), or whatever it was. I think it would be important to identify that. And also, what attracted you to him in the first place. You have said that you cant identify any virtues that he had that drew you to him, and you list things that could be seen as negative about him ( issues with self-esteem, confidence, being rational, being self-motivated, living with purpose), but I dont see anywhere anything about why you liked him, and wanted to be with him. There must have been something? If not, then you probably need to look deeper into why it is that you still ended up with him.

 

Do you think its possible that you were deluding yourself? That things werent as rosy as you thought they were? And that what you thought were your virtues, actually werent? I am not suggesting that you are not virtuous, but we all have pictures of ourselves that arent 100% correct. You say you were getting closer and closer, but in reality, it seems like you were getting further apart, as shown by him wanting "time for himself".

 

I mentioned this before, but having someone that you want to change, is not love. I am not surprised he resented you for it. And I guess thats why he left, in the end. The other girl was probably more relaxed about his perceived character flaws. 

 

What is love, to you? Not what you have heard stefan say about it. You may have adopted that version of love, but I would guess there are still some other versions kicking about , long held beliefs about love and relationships.

 

How much like your father was this guy? 

Thanks for the response!

 

I know the thing I was getting for sure was a companion. Especially when I first met him. It was kind of just us in this brand new world overseas and I valued having someone beside me, even if he wasn't the most pleasant one. There were other people around and with time, I began making more and more friends and getting close to my coworkers, but I still valued being around him. We definitely had fun together, traveled together, partied together, but on a deeper sense there wasn't much there. He was a kind person, for sure and would do sweet things and says sweet things to me and I lost my virginity to him at some point which probably added to the attachment. I think a lot of it was probably a sexual companion. 

 

I am wondering about those virtues, I was definitely starting into my objectivism journey and throughout this renounced my religion and so I was still learning exactly what I needed in life and he seemed to fit, but there were always those signs about his personality, and I almost wonder if my patience and optimism clouded my judgement. I've always been friends with seeming outcasts even though I can make friends fairly easily. People have always told me that I don't act how I look in that I accept people for who they are even if they're not my "ideal" though I don't like to encourage people's poor behavior. 

 

The time when he wanted "time for himself" was a time when he got his second job and began to study Chinese. He said that he really wouldn't have time for me and didn't want to be half-assed in the relationship so we took a break for maybe a month or a month and a half and then came back together even stronger. During that time he said he realized that he couldn't stand not having me in his life. 

 

Yeah, that's kind of what is confusing to me because he seemed to illicit my help while also resenting it. I never pushed him to do things that he didn't ask for, and I would constantly tell him that I didn't want him to do anything that he didn't really want to and he seemed to understand that. I think I wanted him to change for himself and I would benefit from that in the long run. I know most men here have reservations towards what women say about men, but I could honestly say that this was the case. Yes I probably didn't love him initial for who he was, but I did begin to love him for who I thought be was becoming. I think the only times where he would know that I was dissatisfied with him was when we would discuss politics or philosophy. We never agreed, he was a statist, starting out and then slowly began to see my view on libertarianism, but we never completely agreed on that. And he would say that it wasn't important. 

 

What are you not surprised that he resented me for? Doing well for myself? I never bragged about it, I mostly wanted to share things that made me happy with him, and he would almost always twist it in a way that made me feel like he resented me. 

 

Would you have seen yourself as being a good friend if you didn't encourage your friends to be better versions of themselves? Was that crossing the line? That was something he had agreed was valuable and important to us. 

 

I know for sure she was more relaxed, he said that she doesn't really challenge him and it seems like they've developed a slightly dysfunctional attachment to each other. He described it as "codependent" and even from what I saw before he left, unstable, she threatened to leave him again if he tried to work on things with me, even after saying that she loved him as just a friend, sending him into hysterics. 

 

I feel like I wanted him to change but accepted at each stage along the way. Does that make sense?

 

Love to me, especially romantic love is when two people see things in each other that they value so much that they value the other person above every one else and seeing the other person happy makes you happy and vice versa so seeing other people grow or become better should make you even happier because hopefully those things will make the person happier. I think there are many other factors that bind people who are in love together like sex, experiences, but the love is based on something you see in that person. Hopefully virtues. I felt like that was the dynamic of our relationship, but he could never realize describe what he thought love was.

 

I think he was quite the opposite of my father in his actions, similar in his family situation. My dad never knew his father, but was a great dad though not always present because he was always so busy. My dad was a pastor, very religious. Never drank, cursed, rarely shouted but did spank. My dad was really into Ron Paul and I actually read Atlas Shrugged from his bookshelf

[TheW_nderer]

Also, 

 

Do maybe you don't have direct input on his childhood and how that might effect his reasoning, does anyone else?

 

**sorry my previous message is being checked by the mods

[J. D. Stembal]

To pull another card out of Mr. Molyneux's hat, "How attractive or genetically/sexually gifted was this man?" There must be some reason why your eggs are still crazy about him.

[TheW_nderer]

To pull another card out of Mr. Molyneux's hat, "How attractive or genetically/sexually gifted was this man?" There must be some reason why your eggs are still crazy about him.

Lol. Good question.

 

Strangely, when I met him he was maybe a 6 but with time I'd say maybe a 7. He is tall, but is average in attractiveness. He has matured with time and I think that might be why he's began to look better. Also adding some changes in style which he asked for advice on. 

I feel like my mind is over mind so much, because it seems like a bullet dodged, and as this week has gone by I've had fewer manic feelings of betrayal, but I still hate that he's with someone else. Not really that he's not with me...

[neeeel]

Yes I probably didn't love him initial for who he was, but I did begin to love him for who I thought be was becoming

 

 

this seems like a recipe for disaster to me, "once I have moulded him into shape ( into something I can love) , then I will love him". 

 

What are you not surprised that he resented me for

 

 

Im not surprised that he resented you for trying to change him. It sounds like he simply wasnt ready to move forward the way you wanted him to. I obviously dont know all the ins and outs though. you say he agreed to all the changes ( with initial resistance), so perhaps there was ambivalence in him about what he wanted, and in the end, he went the easier route.

[MMX2010]

I don't know whether you'll want to watch a 90-minute movie, but this is one of my favorites.  And it perfectly reminds me of your situation. 

 

About 70 minutes in, the painter, misogynistic, womanizing bastard (and for me, role model) of a man says to a longtime male friend, "A woman can forgive a man for the harm he does to her, but she can never forgive him for the sacrifices he makes on her account." 

 

That line is much more impactful when you know the characters involved, and the conflict that led to the conversation.  But, like I said, it's not necessary for you to watch the movie. 

 

[TheW_nderer]

this seems like a recipe for disaster to me, "once I have moulded him into shape ( into something I can love) , then I will love him". 

 

This is definitely something that I think about. I think initially we weren't expecting to get so serious. In the beginning we said, hey, let's just have fun while we're here and then say goodbye when our time ends here, but we realized that it wasn't so simple after a while. I wasn't looking for the love of my life and he wasn't either. He talked of his plans to just move to Asia and sleep with as many Asian girls as he could to get over this girl, but then we met and plans changed. And he changed as well, whether it was influenced by me or not, both he and I agree for the better, and he thanked me for that while he was breaking up with me -_-

 

 

Im not surprised that he resented you for trying to change him. It sounds like he simply wasnt ready to move forward the way you wanted him to. I obviously dont know all the ins and outs though. you say he agreed to all the changes ( with initial resistance), so perhaps there was ambivalence in him about what he wanted, and in the end, he went the easier route.

 

The initial resistance I think was based on his insecurities. He would downplay how useful friends would be because he would just leave, but later realized how fun they were once he made more, he would say that learning Chinese made no sense and he never planned to use it, but after I began to get better at it he decided to take a class. He downplayed the significance of being rational until he saw that it helped me to make my life happier there and then began to adopt a lot of the concepts I did and it worked for him. He would say how he used his emotions to make decisions, but would then go through stents of extreme worry and anxiety when he did so. He planned to leave Taiwan after only being there a few months and I assured him that there was so much to learn there and so much to do and he ended up staying for another year and a half. I don't know, if I'm wrong for being there for him. It's hard for me to get what would have been right, other than just letting him be his miserable self with no input or love. Do you prefer a woman who holds you to no standards of conduct and doesn't push you to be a better you? Is the easier route the best one even if it doesn't further you as a person? 

 

I don't know whether you'll want to watch a 90-minute movie, but this is one of my favorites.  And it perfectly reminds me of your situation. 

 

About 70 minutes in, the painter, misogynistic, womanizing bastard (and for me, role model) of a man says to a longtime male friend, "A woman can forgive a man for the harm he does to her, but she can never forgive him for the sacrifices he makes on her account." 

 

That line is much more impactful when you know the characters involved, and the conflict that led to the conversation.  But, like I said, it's not necessary for you to watch the movie. 

 

Maybe I'll watch it tonight while I can't sleep! lol

 

I'd be interested in looking into that quote more, I'm not exactly sure what they mean by that. 

[MMX2010]

Maybe I'll watch it tonight while I can't sleep! lol

 

I'd be interested in looking into that quote more, I'm not exactly sure what they mean by that. 

 

If you do watch the movie, it obviously centers around four characters: The Misogynist Painter, The Painter's Second Female Victim (not his wife), The Painter's Male Victim (the guy in the glasses), and The Male Voice of Distance and Reason (who hears the Painter tell him that line I quoted). 

 

The conversation is amazing because it exposes the hypocrisy and ethical weakness of The Male Voice of Distance and Reason.    And the line itself has multiple meanings, all of which are valid. 

[stMarkus]

I would humbly suggest you explore the more sinister sides of yourself that got you into this relationship. Reading through your post I got the impression that this happened to you despite your best efforts and I see you take the moral high ground by being someone who "has done nothing but hurt him". This seems to strip you of much responsibility which I think you`re very capable of having since you`re obviously not lacking on intelligence. Hence acknowledging all the responsibility you might have had in this would definitely mean you taking a dive into your dark side.

 

So the part where you say "Everything that I began to value in him seems to have drained from him in my eyes, the moment he had any hesitations about being with me." Implies to me you have some kind of a mechanism in you that uses other people as a tool to prop up your feeling of self-worth. You associate your affiliation with him as a way to make him lovable for you. I know it might sound over-complicating this but by deeply analyzing these topics complicated things become really easy to understand. Anyway you view yourself as a successful, lovable person and rightly so I believe but there seems to some lack in self-worth as you seek a relationship with someone who has these deep problems that you described. Why not woo someone as virtuous and worthy of love as yourself?

 

But you didn’t, you found yourself with this flawed person whom you wanted to improve. There must have been a part of you that felt you deserved better, someone that was actually worthy of your love. This feeling could have been very strong but even stronger are the defense mechanisms that were set up somewhere within your previous relationships (of course this is a reference to your parents or siblings). Thus you find yourself in this relationship and certain parts of you feel incapable of openly expressing their desire to find someone more worthy of you. The psychological defense mechanisms are so strong that they even make you feel that you actually love him and that there isn’t a slightest reason for you to fight. Thus the deeper parts of you that feel incapable of explicitly expressing their needs ("We need someone who can love us back, who is truly virtuous etc.") start to express their needs in more implicit ways.

 

For example you ascribe as one of the lovable qualities of him that he is associated with you? So he`s a tool for expressing your sense of grandiosity? I`m not judging or anything this might have been one of the mechanisms you have developed of making someone not worthy of your love seem like they actually are worthy. A way of making yourself love someone you actually don’t. Has this happened before in your life? You say you had a great dad but he was always busy and he hit you regularly? Did you really love him or have you possibly developed a defense mechanism of some kind that deludes you into loving someone whom the deepest, most wonderful parts of your soul don`t really love? You say your dad was deeply religious. Could have this brought about some form of forced piety, admiration or love? These are some of the questions I would ask.

 

By doing this kind of analysis you uncover the ways that might not be conscious for you in which you orchestrate much of the mechanisms of your relationships. Yet these are not opportunities for self-hate or regret or developing further defense mechanisms. They are opportunities for wonderful self-discoveries, for getting to know parts of yourself that might have gone through serious traumas and unimaginable suffering but rediscovering them and finding they are still alive and just want to be free and happy can be a glorious humbling experience. You might discover that these darker parts of you that have orchestrated many of your past miserable experiences don`t really want to have a part in creating all this misery but they are forced to do so. They have been forced to do so in a situation where they are abandoned, unheard, forced into silence and almost suffocated with infinitely complicated defense mechanisms. Have you ever felt unable to express some parts of you? How do you think you would try to express yourself in a hopeless situation? Wouldn’t you perhaps try to sabotage the whole situation you are in just so you could be heard? This kind of compartmentalization can very easily happen during a person`s childhood and backfire later on in unintelligible nefarious ways. Does this feel familiar in any way? Does asking yourself these questions bring up any emotions? What do you feel introspecting about your relationship with this gentleman?

 

Therefore I would suggest trying to find the hidden ways you might have been responsible in the buildup of the relationship. I see your unintentional unwillingness to take on some of the responsibility as a defense mechanism that perhaps conceals the darker parts of you. The parts that I’m sure will have all the answers you need to move on with your life towards true happiness.

 

Thanks for your post and if you find any of this helpful, let me know.

[TheW_nderer]

I would humbly suggest you explore the more sinister sides of yourself that got you into this relationship. Reading through your post I got the impression that this happened to you despite your best efforts and I see you take the moral high ground by being someone who "has done nothing but hurt him". This seems to strip you of much responsibility which I think you`re very capable of having since you`re obviously not lacking on intelligence. Hence acknowledging all the responsibility you might have had in this would definitely mean you taking a dive into your dark side.

 

So the part where you say "Everything that I began to value in him seems to have drained from him in my eyes, the moment he had any hesitations about being with me." Implies to me you have some kind of a mechanism in you that uses other people as a tool to prop up your feeling of self-worth. You associate your affiliation with him as a way to make him lovable for you. I know it might sound over-complicating this but by deeply analyzing these topics complicated things become really easy to understand. Anyway you view yourself as a successful, lovable person and rightly so I believe but there seems to some lack in self-worth as you seek a relationship with someone who has these deep problems that you described. Why not woo someone as virtuous and worthy of love as yourself?

 

But you didn’t, you found yourself with this flawed person whom you wanted to improve. There must have been a part of you that felt you deserved better, someone that was actually worthy of your love. This feeling could have been very strong but even stronger are the defense mechanisms that were set up somewhere within your previous relationships (of course this is a reference to your parents or siblings). Thus you find yourself in this relationship and certain parts of you feel incapable of openly expressing their desire to find someone more worthy of you. The psychological defense mechanisms are so strong that they even make you feel that you actually love him and that there isn’t a slightest reason for you to fight. Thus the deeper parts of you that feel incapable of explicitly expressing their needs ("We need someone who can love us back, who is truly virtuous etc.") start to express their needs in more implicit ways.

 

For example you ascribe as one of the lovable qualities of him that he is associated with you? So he`s a tool for expressing your sense of grandiosity? I`m not judging or anything this might have been one of the mechanisms you have developed of making someone not worthy of your love seem like they actually are worthy. A way of making yourself love someone you actually don’t. Has this happened before in your life? You say you had a great dad but he was always busy and he hit you regularly? Did you really love him or have you possibly developed a defense mechanism of some kind that deludes you into loving someone whom the deepest, most wonderful parts of your soul don`t really love? You say your dad was deeply religious. Could have this brought about some form of forced piety, admiration or love? These are some of the questions I would ask.

 

By doing this kind of analysis you uncover the ways that might not be conscious for you in which you orchestrate much of the mechanisms of your relationships. Yet these are not opportunities for self-hate or regret or developing further defense mechanisms. They are opportunities for wonderful self-discoveries, for getting to know parts of yourself that might have gone through serious traumas and unimaginable suffering but rediscovering them and finding they are still alive and just want to be free and happy can be a glorious humbling experience. You might discover that these darker parts of you that have orchestrated many of your past miserable experiences don`t really want to have a part in creating all this misery but they are forced to do so. They have been forced to do so in a situation where they are abandoned, unheard, forced into silence and almost suffocated with infinitely complicated defense mechanisms. Have you ever felt unable to express some parts of you? How do you think you would try to express yourself in a hopeless situation? Wouldn’t you perhaps try to sabotage the whole situation you are in just so you could be heard? This kind of compartmentalization can very easily happen during a person`s childhood and backfire later on in unintelligible nefarious ways. Does this feel familiar in any way? Does asking yourself these questions bring up any emotions? What do you feel introspecting about your relationship with this gentleman?

 

Therefore I would suggest trying to find the hidden ways you might have been responsible in the buildup of the relationship. I see your unintentional unwillingness to take on some of the responsibility as a defense mechanism that perhaps conceals the darker parts of you. The parts that I’m sure will have all the answers you need to move on with your life towards true happiness.

 

Thanks for your post and if you find any of this helpful, let me know.

 

I had a really long response to the but accidentally clicked back and lost it all as well as my desire retype it. 

 

To try and paraphrase the awesome content that I lost, I will say this: 

 

I have always made friends with people who were dysfunctional because I've never really "fit in" in the the sense that I grew up in an ultra-religious family, was homeschooled until college and had really unconventional ideas for most where I live. And because I'm not a person who is judgmental or looks down on people for the things they can't help, people have always looked to me for support or an ear to listen to their troubles, and before my b/f I never expected anyone would ever consider me as more than that and people of that I built this defense system wherein I wouldn't open myself up to people because they never seemed to care that that "ear" had a "mouth" and so with this relationship I decided to go all in and open myself up, even if the response from him was the same as with the people before. My attitude was changed, and I attributed that change to him even if it was an active choice on my part. 

 

When I was younger I never felt like my input was valuable because I just had to do whatever my parents/god told me to do until college so when I graduated and moved abroad it was my chance for a new start, to truly be myself and that came as me being really open in my relationship while still caring for my ex just like I had with my friends, but without that barrier of feeling like I couldn't just be myself, be happy, be proud, confident, etc. But I think his response is what everyone else's response would have been had I done the same thing to them while they were using my ears. Start talking about myself: Blank stare, blink, blink. 

 

I agree with you in some ways, but I think I have to disagree with self-hate. I think when I was younger I fought with the idea of being evil, but deep down I've always known that people love evil more than they love virtue and that people often resented me for being happy with myself and sometimes that lead to me trying to hide myself to not make other's feel uncomfortable. I think I could really relate to Hank Readen in Atlas Shrugged. Maybe that comparison clarifies things. How he worked and did things for everyone, but couldn't realize why the more he did the more everyone seemed to resent him. 

 

There's no way I could deny that I have problems, but I don't feel those problems are things that I want to defend, I want to be open, while also not excusing other people for not being virtuous. It has always seemed that those who are weaker deserve more sensitivity than those trying to do well and better those around them. I hate that the world sucks and that people are unhappy, and in doing something to fix it or help out, people throw it back in my face as my using people for gain. 

 

Not sure if this makes sense at all.

 

 

I'm not trying to play the victim, but I'm so confused by the idea that I worked hard to help my friend(even if my boyfriend) out of a rough patch in his life and took pleasure in doing so and because that pleasure existed, I was using him. 

[J. D. Stembal]

I'm not trying to play the victim, but I'm so confused by the idea that I worked hard to help my friend(even if my boyfriend) out of a rough patch in his life and took pleasure in doing so and because that pleasure existed, I was using him. 

 

Do you believe you were helping your boyfriend in an altruistic sense? Did he ask you for help? If the roles were reversed, and he was trying to help you grow out of your religious upbringing, would you be appreciative or insulted?

[MMX2010]

Do you believe you were helping your boyfriend in an altruistic sense? Did he ask you for help? If the roles were reversed, and he was trying to help you grow out of your religious upbringing, would you be appreciative or insulted?

 

I don't think this question is important.  You're trying to get her to empathize with the fact that he may have seen her help as patronizing, but what Kind Of Person sees another person's help as patronizing? 

[TheW_nderer]

Do you believe you were helping your boyfriend in an altruistic sense? Did he ask you for help? If the roles were reversed, and he was trying to help you grow out of your religious upbringing, would you be appreciative or insulted?

I think that was my point in posted this, it was that he resented that I helped him and was capable of helping him. I don't believe my motives were altruistic in that I hated the idea as a whole, I was definitely getting enjoyment out of seeing him become better and happier and I became happier when I saw that. I think it was more like, he took the help willingly, but wished he didn't have to acknowledge it's source, like when Philip asked Hank to give him a check without Hank's name on it so that his friends wouldn't know where the money truly came from. Like sometimes I would give him advice or we had arguments about things and he would reject them, but then later we would be around his friends and he would give them the advice I had just given him as if it were his idea. I never called him out on it, because I thought, "well, at least he got it after all" and he wouldn't often cite me as a source of those ideas. A lot of it had to do with nutrition, I was a very strict vegetarian and told him how I believed it was good for my health to try to avoid meat and processed foods, but he would say that I was ridiculous, but later he read a book about health and decided that meat was bad for him as well as processed foods, but said, "you never used good enough examples". 

 

I don't think this question is important.  You're trying to get her to empathize with the fact that he may have seen her help as patronizing, but what Kind Of Person sees another person's help as patronizing? 

I would say, a poor kind of person

[MMX2010]

 

I would say, a poor kind of person

 

It's way more than that.  That question, if you meditate on it long enough and get the deepest possible answers, can vastly improve your life. 

[TheW_nderer]

It's way more than that.  That question, if you meditate on it long enough and get the deepest possible answers, can vastly improve your life. 

I think if I ran with Hank Rearden's brother as an example, it does go a long way, and yes, there was something that Hank had to change in the end to set himself free. But I guess it leaves me afraid that I will end up with only the people living in Galt's Gulch.. imaginary friends.

 

At some point in my heart, I wish I could be the girl he left me for, because at least she will have loads of company and have her needs met by the average person. But in my mind that really doesn't look great to me and wouldn't lead to my happiness, and that's why I'm so annoyed that I still have any feelings towards even the idea of him. 

[Jeremi]

.

[Jeremi]

Hi again Wanderer,

 

I had a lengthy response written out for you, but some kind of forum error made me lose my entire post so this version will unfortunately be far more hodge-podge than the first one.

 

It sounds like in spite of the pain you feel now, this was a really good breakup for you. By good breakup I mean one in which many of your past illusions were shattered or at least reexamined and you can now do the work needed to begin to find the kind of relationships that will be compatible with your proclaimed virtues (not just romantically but with everybody in your life).

 

The part you mentioned about him being babied by his mother and overall dependent on his parents came across as a big red flag for me and it might help to reflect on what kind of relationships (apart from their relationship with you) you would expect someone who you consider virtuous to have. My last ex used to say that she really couldn't stand her narcissistic, uncaring mother but on the other hand wanted to continue to have a strong relationship with her because "she's my mother and I love her". Thankfully that relationship didn't last long, but is it not amazing how quickly we abandon our rationale when emotional dependencies and sexual lust take over? Which is exactly why self-knowledge must come first so we don't get trapped repeating a lot of the same dysfunctional patterns we may have had in previous relationships. 

 

I understand the shame you might feel now but the more you reflect the more you may come to appreciate the clarity you've gained from this experience.  I am certainly thankful now for what my last relationship taught me and I would just as soon throw a girl out on the street than ever succumb to the same type of emotional manipulation I experienced in the past. Anyway I'm happy to share more of my personal experiences if you want but this may not be the best place for it.

 

I'd also seriously taken into consideration what Markus has said, he has courageously walked the path of self-knowledge as much as anyone I know.

[neeeel]

The initial resistance I think was based on his insecurities. He would downplay how useful friends would be because he would just leave, but later realized how fun they were once he made more, he would say that learning Chinese made no sense and he never planned to use it, but after I began to get better at it he decided to take a class. He downplayed the significance of being rational until he saw that it helped me to make my life happier there and then began to adopt a lot of the concepts I did and it worked for him. He would say how he used his emotions to make decisions, but would then go through stents of extreme worry and anxiety when he did so. He planned to leave Taiwan after only being there a few months and I assured him that there was so much to learn there and so much to do and he ended up staying for another year and a half. I don't know, if I'm wrong for being there for him. It's hard for me to get what would have been right, other than just letting him be his miserable self with no input or love. Do you prefer a woman who holds you to no standards of conduct and doesn't push you to be a better you? Is the easier route the best one even if it doesn't further you as a person? 

 

 

Its not that I think you were wrong to be there for him, exactly. Its that you started off on the wrong basis right from the start. Of course, I am only going on the little info available, and my own preconceptions and imaginings of both of you. If you both started off with love, and both realised that there was much you could do to help each other, then great. But it doesnt sound like that. It sounds like you were trying to pull him up to your level, and him not really being interested or wanting to do that.

 

I am not trying to apportion blame or anything like that. Its a tough situation, and I feel for you. I most likely wouldnt do any better in the same situation.

[TheW_nderer]

Hi again Wanderer,

 

I had a lengthy response written out for you, but some kind of forum error made me lose my entire post so this version will unfortunately be far more hodge-podge than the first one.

 

It sounds like in spite of the pain you feel now, this was a really good breakup for you. By good breakup I mean one in which many of your past illusions were shattered or at least reexamined and you can now do the work needed to begin to find the kind of relationships that will be compatible with your proclaimed virtues (not just romantically but with everybody in your life).

 

The part you mentioned about him being babied by his mother and overall dependent on his parents came across as a big red flag for me and it might help to reflect on what kind of relationships (apart from their relationship with you) you would expect someone who you consider virtuous to have. My last ex used to say that she really couldn't stand her narcissistic, uncaring mother but on the other hand wanted to continue to have a strong relationship with her because "she's my mother and I love her". Thankfully that relationship didn't last long, but is it not amazing how quickly we abandon our rationale when emotional dependencies and sexual lust take over? Which is exactly why self-knowledge must come first so we don't get trapped repeating a lot of the same dysfunctional patterns we may have had in previous relationships. 

 

I understand the shame you might feel now but the more you reflect the more you may come to appreciate the clarity you've gained from this experience.  I am certainly thankful now for what my last relationship taught me and I would just as soon throw a girl out on the street than ever succumb to the same type of emotional manipulation I experienced in the past. Anyway I'm happy to share more of my personal experiences if you want but this may not be the best place for it.

 

I'd also seriously taken into consideration what Markus has said, he has courageously walked the path of self-knowledge as much as anyone I know.

Thanks for sharing your story! It comforts me to know other people can relate, but I do want to learn from this, and even with a week of reflection, I can understand so much more about myself and my ex and see how we weren't good for each.. Maybe I was good for him if he really wanted it, but he wasn't good for me to value so much. 

 

I'd love to talk more about your journey with you so feel free to shoot me a message or skype me. I'm really looking to add more people in my life who share my passions for reason and self-knowledge.

Its not that I think you were wrong to be there for him, exactly. Its that you started off on the wrong basis right from the start. Of course, I am only going on the little info available, and my own preconceptions and imaginings of both of you. If you both started off with love, and both realised that there was much you could do to help each other, then great. But it doesnt sound like that. It sounds like you were trying to pull him up to your level, and him not really being interested or wanting to do that.

 

I am not trying to apportion blame or anything like that. Its a tough situation, and I feel for you. I most likely wouldnt do any better in the same situation.

I can't agree that he wasn't interested, but he did resent it. 

 

I feel much better about it after discussing it. Thanks for your input, I'd love to stay in touch!

[Bouncelot]

At some point in my heart, I wish I could be the girl he left me for, because at least she will have loads of company and have her needs met by the average person. But in my mind that really doesn't look great to me and wouldn't lead to my happiness, and that's why I'm so annoyed that I still have any feelings towards even the idea of him. 

 

Welcome to the club... Once you swallow the red pill, its hard to go back...

 

 

Thanks for starting this thread. Your story reminds me a lot of myself and my ex. I am still working through my side, but reading this an, and all the wonderful comments have really helped give me a few new places to look into.

[TheW_nderer]

Welcome to the club... Once you swallow the red pill, its hard to go back...

 

 

Thanks for starting this thread. Your story reminds me a lot of myself and my ex. I am still working through my side, but reading this an, and all the wonderful comments have really helped give me a few new places to look into.

This thread has helped me a lot too, especially getting to chat with other people who understand the philosophy behind relationships. Nothing has really soothed my mind as much as talking it out with people on FDR, and I'm grateful for that. I just wish that this were possible with the friends I have around me, but it's just not the case. I don't see how fulfilling life could possibly be if my goal were to fill it with like-minded people, because there are so few, and so I need to find other outlets. 

 

I still think about my ex everyday, even though he's gone for good and I made the decision not to be friends in the future, it's really annoying and don't know what to do about it. I have these obsessive thoughts all day long about why things went they way they did, why I dated him in the first place, why I fought for him, is being with a virtuous man a realistic goal, am I all that virtuous, etc...? bleh..

How did you work through that aspect? Did you have the struggle between your reasonable mind and your "heart"?

[st434u]

It sounds like you wanted to turn him into someone better so that you could stand being with him.

 

Ask yourself what would've happened if suddenly all his money was gone forever.

[TheW_nderer]

It sounds like you wanted to turn him into someone better so that you could stand being with him.

 

Ask yourself what would've happened if suddenly all his money was gone forever.

He had no money when I met him and for a while I made more money than he did and rarely ever allowed him to pay for things for me. 

[st434u]

He had no money when I met him and for a while I made more money than he did and rarely ever allowed him to pay for things for me. 

 

Oh, I thought his grandmother was always very wealthy.

 

If it wasn't the money then maybe you have an inner desire for (addiction to) failure, which needs to be examined and dealt with if it exists.

[TheW_nderer]

Oh, I thought his grandmother was always very wealthy.

 

If it wasn't the money then maybe you have an inner desire for (addiction to) failure, which needs to be examined and dealt with if it exists.

His grandmother is, but doesn't continually support him. She helped him through college and that's about it. Though he has talked about the inheritance he would get after she died.

 

As far as the addiction to failure, could you explain what you mean by that? You think perhaps I wanted my relationship to fail or I love when others fail?

[st434u]

Well if his grandmother is very wealthy, it does mean that he will get a large inheritance when she dies, and he made sure you were well aware of that fact, and that's what I meant. You know that if you have kids with him, money is unlikely to be an issue.

 

I thought it was interesting that you referred to what you're upset about, that this new girlfriend of his will get thanks to you and instead of you, as an "inheritance".

 

About the addiction to failure, I meant your failure, not his. Some people put themselves up for impossible tasks that they know deep down can't be accomplished, but they tell themselves it can be done, just so they can feel awful about it when it doesn't.

[TheW_nderer]

Oh I see what you. I don't see that as something that relates to me. I am not interested in men for their money, I've always done well to provide for myself and prefer it that way. This is a common concern for women I suppose which makes your thinking this understandable. I was more turned off by him talking of his elderly grandmother as someone he's waiting to die so he can inherit her things. Kind of like moocher behavior to me. That was one thing that I often felt uneasy about with him, it was that he would try to use where he went to college, where he lived or his grandmother as a way to win points with people. His grandmother doesn't really support he and his family, he paid for college with the money he won from a car accident he had as a child, and though he lives in a richer area, his family lives modestly in a tiny apartment. None of that stuff ever mattered to me.

 

I thought it was interesting that you referred to what you're upset about, that this new girlfriend of his will get thanks to you and instead of you, as an "inheritance".  

 

I think maybe you're saying that this is kind of a pattern of him that I should have realized? That he uses women to get what he wants and then uses that to get the next woman like his grandmother? Possible. 

 

I really don't like failure, which is probably why I waited so late to have  relationship and fought so hard to keep it in the end. I never felt ready or compelled to try deep relationships with people until now, and I really did see a future in it, though I had my doubts along the way. Deep down I know it was for the best that the relationship ended, because it wasn't a rational one and I knew that all along. The virtues I ascribed to my ex were actually just fabrications of my own doing to make up for what he lacked. He was an asshole, yes, but I knew he was an asshole and I accepted that even though I did encourage him to do better. The hard thing is when that person seems to be open to going after a better happier life, but in the end, chooses the easy way out. 

 

The day we broke up, he asked me "what if I need a codependent relationship?" to which I replied "I couldn't give you that" he later looked up what codependent meant and was horrified that it described him perfectly. I pointed out how it perfectly described the relationship he was having with the other girl, but he just brushed it off. 

[PatrickC]

I'll be honest I've only read your first post and skimmed most of your others, so I may have missed something perhaps. But like I said to you before, our romantic relationships are often a birds eye view of our childhood unmet needs. Not that our biological preferences don't come into play they do, but I haven't seen you once examine your personal history in this regard. The history of your ex has no bearing on your future romantic happiness. Concentrating on it like a wilting violet will only distract you from what you claim to want.

 

From a rudimentary outlook, given what you have already stated. Who in your past did you seek to pacify and help change that never changed? (don't answer in this thread, it's something you should do by yourself) This would be the first thing to examine frankly. Hopefully it will lead to better and more precise questions about your history for you to answer and better understand.

 

One of the reasons you keep going round in circles (as I see it), is because you want to continue blaming your ex. Stop doing that and take responsibility for yourself.

 

Also here is a great resource to aid you from a long term board member. I recommend her ultimate guide to journaling.

 

http://www.becomingwhoyouare.net/

[TheW_nderer]

I'll be honest I've only read your first post and skimmed most of your others, so I may have missed something perhaps. But like I said to you before, our romantic relationships are often a birds eye view of our childhood unmet needs. Not that our biological preferences don't come into play they do, but I haven't seen you once examine your personal history in this regard. The history of your ex has no bearing on your future romantic happiness. Concentrating on it like a wilting violet will only distract you from what you claim to want.

 

From a rudimentary outlook, given what you have already stated. Who in your past did you seek to pacify and help change that never changed? (don't answer in this thread, it's something you should do by yourself) This would be the first thing to examine frankly. Hopefully it will lead to better and more precise questions about your history for you to answer.

 

One of the reasons you keep going round in circles (as I see it), is because it seems you want to continue blaming your ex. Stop doing that and take responsibility for yourself.

 

Also here is a great resource to aid you from a long term board member. I recommend her ultimate guide to journaling.

 

http://www.becomingwhoyouare.net/

I'm in the process of letting this go. It's easy to blame other people for your outcomes in life, but I have taken a lot of things to heart and have come to grips that I have only received what I have accepted in regards to my relationship. As I list off things that I saw in my ex, I am really haunted by the idea that I accepted them, regardless of whether he is an asshole or an angel, in the end, I am the person who chose to be in the relationship and what does that say about me? (of course there's that gnawing voice in my head that says "am I the only one who has to behave?" lol)

 

I really just want to be happy, and though I am obsessing over the details in my relationship it's because it's kind of become a case study for me in that I've listened to so many podcasts from Molyneux and a lot of what I've heard perfectly aligns with my situation, and because of that, it's become a bit thrilling to look at from the other side. I don't really have strong feelings about this matter, but I have really annoying thoughts about it all day. 

 

I know I have work to do and I really want to be prepared on what to look out for if I ever choose to be in a relationship again. 

 

Thank you for the link! 

[neeeel]

Dont beat yourself up about it. There is no need for shame or guilt in this.

[PatrickC]

I am really haunted by the idea that I accepted them, regardless of whether he is an asshole or an angel, in the end, I am the person who chose to be in the relationship and what does that say about me? (of course there's that gnawing voice in my head that says "am I the only one who has to behave?" lol)

 

This is not a reason to self attack. It's a reason to self examine.

[TheW_nderer]

This is not a reason to self attack. It's a reason to self examine.

 

For sure. Thanks for the advice!

[st434u]

I think maybe you're saying that this is kind of a pattern of him that I should have realized? That he uses women to get what he wants and then uses that to get the next woman like his grandmother? Possible.

No, I was referring to the inheritance from the grandmother. The new girlfriend will get the inheritance if she marries him and they stay together; which you would have gotten if it was you instead. And maybe the reason you're upset about it is because you feel you made him into someone more comfortable to be around, and now the new girlfriend gets the easy ride and eventually the money too.

 

I really don't like failure, which is probably why I waited so late to have  relationship and fought so hard to keep it in the end. I never felt ready or compelled to try deep relationships with people until now, and I really did see a future in it, though I had my doubts along the way. Deep down I know it was for the best that the relationship ended, because it wasn't a rational one and I knew that all along.

This actually shows that you did want the failure on a certain level. The fact that you fought so hard to make and maintain a relationship that was never going to work. This is the first time you tried to have a deep relationship, and you chose someone who was entirely incompatible with you to have it with.

 

The hard thing is when that person seems to be open to going after a better happier life, but in the end, chooses the easy way out.

Someone doesn't change like that just because you come into their lives. That is an absolute pipe dream. Either he is looking to improve and has already improved significantly without you, or he's luring you into giving him your help and affection by claiming that he wants to improve.

 

These vampiric-like relationships have nothing to do with real love. You mentioned in another thread that you didn't know if he really loved you. Of course he didn't. And you didn't love him, either.