Help: I like this girl...

[Tservitive]

So I met this girl about two and a half weeks ago at a college social club and we hit it off well. While we would talk in person while at the club, we began to converse primarily through email and text for the majority of these two weeks due to both of us being busy with classes. At first, the majority f our conversation revolved around music, but soon grew to include psychology and philosophy. We met for the first time outside of club last Thursday to prepare and share dinner at my place. We ate, we danced, and we talked for hours after we finessed eating.

 

The problem occurred when we kissed. This was about thirty minutes into the evening, and about 15-30 minutes later she brought up that she has a boyfriend for the first time. This is what prompted us to talk for several hours after dinner and really delve deep into our personal histories. Initially, she mentioned that she felt bad about unknowingly leading me on and that this was the first time that she ever cheated since she holds trust and loyalty to relationships as highly important. Later on, she stated that she may have been willing to come over and kiss me rather than have me cook at her place because of the emotionlessness and passivity of her current boyfriend. We almost made out 3 other times and ended up making out once before I drove her home. 

 

It is clear that we like each other. In fact, she mentioned that she would have no problem dating me if she was single. Based on my morals, I presented that possibility that we remain friends, due to what we have in common, but with the understanding that I would like more should she become single. She agreed to this. Since then, we have continued to talk and text almost daily, although now our conversations are even more personal that they were before Thursday. In addition, I have seen her boyfriend she he came to the club on Friday and he really reamed like a serious, quite, and emotionless person. Like a 1 or 2 on a scale where 10 is extremely emotional.

 

I have been thinking about her for a while. I smile when I think about her. I have dreamt about her every night since Thursday. I feel at ease around her, never having to lie or watch my words when talking to her. I am sad that she is in a relationship, but I am happy that she talks to me.

 

What I know about her through our conversations:

• Her life goal is to help people, possibly by becoming a psychiatrist and opening a clinic in China
• She believes in gender equality, but not feminism
• She is extremely open to Anarcho-Capitalism
• Her skeptisims of any of my views comes from curiosity instead of biased opinions
• She has a love for some of her Chinese culture, but is not weighed down or overly biased by it when it comes to objective reasoning
• She is quick to raise questions about cultural biases and contradictions that she sees
• She is not religious although she said that she was spiritual, which seems to put her around agnosticism
• She is emotionally present and expresses them freely with me
• She lives her virtues, as evidenced by taking a semester of school off to help her family when her mother broke her leg and could not properly take care of their household
• She is passionate about the same types of music and films as me
• She has had therapy and sees the value in it
• She laughs at most of my jokes
• We have talked about our dating histories, though not in too specific terms yet
• She began therapy after she had problems with her first boyfriend, who was absusive
• Her other boyfriends since then (3-4 total) were not abusive, though she has been the dominant one in these relationships 
• She has agreed to the definition that love is our involuntary response to virtue
• She genuinely listens to me
• She is a foreign student from Shanghai, China
• She is not like my mom, and this is a good thing
• She is the most comfortable girl that I have ever been around
• She does not do drugs nor smokes and rarely drinks

What I guess I'm trying to get at is this: Would entering a romantic relationship with this girl be a good or bad idea, considering what I know, should she become single? Is my continued friendship with her inherently manipulative considering our agreement and her current relationship? Are there any questions that I should ask her that would help answer my questions? Is she really a good girl, or am I projecting virtue? Am I not thinking about something?

 

Please help me if you can

[AynRand]

I'm not so certain that Stef would agree with me on my post, but this is my own personal opinion. It sounds like you have a real connection with this person, and it seems that she is a suitable mate for you. That's great news that she is open to the idea's of anarcho capitalism, and she doesn't seem to harbor an imaginary tyrant with her. This is far better then I have ever fared, but I'll try to leave my own anecdotes out of this. It seems that you share similar interests like the same type of music. I do find it concerning that she still has a boyfriend which suggests that she finds that he has redeeming qualities. I might be reading to much into this but this might mean 1 of 2 things that either he is genuinely a good person who is pursuing self knowledge, and is a attractive to her and as a result you might be out of luck competing with that beefcake. Or this boyfriend is some combination of bad person with some redeemable qualities and she believes that she can "change him" which might indicate a lack of good judgement on her part.

 

If I was in the situation that you described I would probably pursue a relationship with her, but if she is unwilling to leave her boyfriend then I'm sorry to say that probably the best course of action is to stay friends and leave it at that. So I guess I'm trying to say that it depends on how much does she care for you? If she is only willing to see you on the side, and continue dating the other person then I am fairly certain that would not be a healthy relationship.

[Tservitive]

(Redacted Post)

[PatrickC]

Imagine she was your girlfiriend and she kissed this strange guy she only just met?

[Bouncelot]

How does that phrase go? "If they do it for you, they will do it to you...."

 

I have been in this situation way to many times. This may be different, but in every case for me they were drawn to the intellect, to nap, to everything that they current BF didn't have. Then they leached it from me, offering nothing in return.

[stMarkus]

Apart from the virginity aspect a call in show very related to your situation Link. First 52 minutes of it.

[TheBen]

[BD91]

 

 Initially, she mentioned that she felt bad about unknowingly leading me on and that this was the first time that she ever cheated since she holds trust and loyalty to relationships as highly important.

 

I'm just saying, you've got some pretty strong evidence to the contrary.

[Better Future]

If she likes you she will agree with everything you say.

[J. D. Stembal]

I need to learn to finish reading the original post before I reply!

 

Tell the boyfriend what you are doing with her (maybe initially leaving out the kissing part), then see how they react. That is how you will know what the next move is.
 

[MrCapitalism]

 

Should she become single?

Notice how you've denied her agency in this situation? She's not a damsel in distress, and you're not her knight in shining armor. If she becomes single that is either by her choice, or the choice of her boyfriend.

 

Regardless, the only reason she isn't single right now is because she is making a choice not to be. She had her experience with you and still hasn't dumped her boyfriend. She's used her sexuality to insert you into a stable orbit.

 

Your situation as I see it right now:

1.) Demand respect for yourself.

 

2.) Get laid.

 

....choose one of the above.

[William Wyatt]

Remember that Ayn Rand and Nathaniel Brandon had an Affair, and despite having a fair negotiation with their current partners, Brandon later had another affair with one of his clients...  

Even though she has cheated on her current boyfriend with you, I still believe the Pro's Outweigh the Con's for you in this situation. You should talk to her about how you would have difficultly trusting her in a relationship, given that she has technically cheated.... maybe she has never had such an intense connection with any other man before and was overwhelmed with emotion. 

I think it is unlikely that you will find another woman who is open to libertarianism for quite a long time my friend... You should at least remain friends with her so you can see if there are any more Red Flags.... But as it stands, the white flags outweigh the red....

 

[WasatchMan]

My opinion is you are projecting.  You don't know her well enough to perscribe these virtues, and what you do know (not what she may have manipulated you into thinking) is negative.  Women know what men want to hear, especially if the man is looking for someone to love him.

[J. D. Stembal]

What was the nature of her therapy and what is her relationship to her parents? If you continue seeing her, I would suggest you investigate her familial relationships very early on, and not just because she is Chinese.

[MMX2010]

I've been experiencing a lot of impasses at the FDR NYC Meet-up meetings, but I at least know what those impasses are.  Just yesterday, I said to the group, "You guys are operating solely on the intellectual level, where you hear the words people say, and trust those words at 100% face value.  But those overt words (the Text) form only 20% of communication, and so you're blind to Sub-Text, the non-verbal communications behind those words that comprise 80% of all communication." 

 

Case in point, "I have a boyfriend..." the moment you begin talking to a girl is millions of miles different from "I have a boyfriend..." the moment you start kissing. 

 

The first statement is 100% honest, with 0% sub-text.  (Or minimal sub-text, like, "I really love my boyfriend, and you need to respect that.")  When a woman makes a statement like that, you listen and respect her commitment.  But the second statement is maybe 10% honest, with 90% sub-text.  It does not mean, "You should respect my commitment to my boyfriend."  It means, "I really like you right now, and being with you here and now makes me realize just how much I don't respect or love my boyfriend.  So are you okay with pushing this further?" 

 

And these questions / comments about her level of virtuousness, based solely on the fact that she kissed you while having a boyfriend, are unimportant.  Yes, I hear the popular argument, "If she's willing to cheat on her current boyfriend to get with you, then she's more likely to cheat on you when you become her boyfriend."  But my counter-argument is: (1) This is just-as-true for women who don't have boyfriends when you kiss them for the first time.  (2) This argument masks the admittedly frightening question, "If I love her better than her current boyfriend, does this mean she'll be loyal to me even though she wasn't loyal to him?" 

 

Yes, the question is frightening.  Yes, different men in different scenarios will have different success rates when poaching a girlfriend from another man.  Yes, stomping your feet firmly on the ground, and declaring to yourself, "I shall never poach another man's girlfriend.", makes things undeniably simpler.  But neither the fright, nor the variance, nor the yearning for simplicity are either Moral Reasons or Sufficiently Good Reasons to NOT ask, "If I love her better than her current boyfriend, does this mean she'll be loyal to me even though she wasn't loyal to him?" 

[TheBen]

Remember that Ayn Rand and Nathaniel Brandon had an Affair, and despite having a fair negotiation with their current partners, Brandon later had another affair with one of his clients...  

 

Even though she has cheated on her current boyfriend with you, I still believe the Pro's Outweigh the Con's for you in this situation. You should talk to her about how you would have difficultly trusting her in a relationship, given that she has technically cheated.... maybe she has never had such an intense connection with any other man before and was overwhelmed with emotion. 

 

I think it is unlikely that you will find another woman who is open to libertarianism for quite a long time my friend... You should at least remain friends with her so you can see if there are any more Red Flags.... But as it stands, the white flags outweigh the red....

 

 

 

I think this is some dangerous and horrible advice mostly because it is probably exactly what OP wants to hear. Though I'd like to hear what Tservitive(OP) thinks about the comments made thus far...

[MMX2010]

Notice how you've denied her agency in this situation? She's not a damsel in distress, and you're not her knight in shining armor. If she becomes single that is either by her choice, or the choice of her boyfriend.

 

Regardless, the only reason she isn't single right now is because she is making a choice not to be. She had her experience with you and still hasn't dumped her boyfriend. She's used her sexuality to insert you into a stable orbit.

 

Your situation as I see it right now:

1.) Demand respect for yourself.

 

2.) Get laid.

 

....choose one of the above.

 

 

I agree with everything you've said, except your phrasing, "She used her sexuality to insert you into a stable orbit." 

 

The correct phrasing should be, "The way you immediately responded to her proclamation of having a boyfriend assured your insertion into a stable orbit." 

 

If I were in the OP's shoes, I would've responded by making my strongest judgmental face, turning away from her, and moving towards the exit.  I think there was a 90% chance that she would've responded by grabbing his hand, pulling him back towards her, and saying something like, "No, no, no.  Come back.  It doesn't matter that I have a boyfriend."  The other 10% chance was that she'd allow him to walk away, secure in her devotion to her boyfriend. 

 

Either reaction would've avoided placing him into her stable orbit.  In the first case, he either walks away for real or bangs her despite having a boyfriend.  In the second case, he walks away and never comes back. 

 

Right now, though, because he's in her stable orbit, I don't know why he'd want to punch four times harder to regain the ground he wouldn't have lose if he responded like I described above. 

[J. D. Stembal]

(Redacted Post)

 

Let's get the OP back in the thread. We need updates!

[Tservitive]

Hey everyone,

 

I first want to thank everyone for your help with this question.

 

Here are a couple of things that I should let everyone know about my goals and thoughts on the matter:

• I'm a white male in my senior year of college, I already have a job line up after I graduate, it is a reasonable distance away from my school where I could visit and return in a day if I wanted to but I could easily never see this girl again if I desired this.
• Is it hot that she's Asian? Sure, but I am looking for character, shared interests, and most importantly shared values that would correlate to a good mother to my future children (which is a long way away). Hotness and sex appeal are not my primary concerns. In fact, I have been rejecting women who are significantly more attractive than this girl due to my commitment to virtue and wanting to be with a good woman.
• I brought up that she is asian due to cultural questions hat I'm not thinning about as a white guy from the states
• My use of the word Should in "Should she break up with her boyfriend," was meant as an alternative to the word If. Whether or not she or her boy friend ends the relationship is their decision. I wanted to know what I should due if she became single.
• I have been in 5 relationships that have lasted no more than 9 months the longest, but most around 3-5 months. Most of these were with manipulate women. Since my last one 8 months ago I have discovered FDR, which has helped me immensely in my 5 year self-knowledge journey more than anything else I have ever done.
• One of my relationships was the inadvertent result of cheating with a girl who was still dating a guy but told me that she broke up with him before we began dating. She was my first lay, which blinded me to the reality of the situation.

Now that I've got that out of the way, I will fill you all in on my situation. I believe that there is a very simple way to tell if I can trust her: I ask about her relationship, specifically if I ask about whether or not she has told him anything. I figure there are three possibilities: 1) Did not tell the guy, meaning that I most likely cannot trust her, 2) She told the guy and they have or are about to break up, which makes getting to know her better easier or 3) She told and they are working on their issues, which would put me completely out of romantic or friendly relations for obvious and understandable reasons. 

 

I have arranged to meet her today after class to discuss honestly where we stand and where she is. I do want to get to know her better, learn about the family, learn about her former relationships, and see if she has accountability. I am willing to do this because of how close our stated virtues and common interests are. However, I am willing to end any romantic or close friendship with this girl if I find that she is not honest or takes responsibility for her actions. The reason for this is that if she is not honest, I could never trust her, and if I can't trust her then I can never respect her. Not being able to take personal responsibility is certainly a form of dishonesty. 

 

I understand that my discussion with her may surprise me, either for the good or for the bad. I do also hoe that if I cannot trust her as a romantic partner, that I can help get her close to a breakthrough, though I am not willing to compromise my morals to subjugate myself to manipulation or evil.

 

@MMX2010 I am aware that actions speak louder than words and that context is key. I do have the feeling that she was probing me for my character, though I am unsure specifically if it was due to wanting to date me, or wanting to use me. I am leaning towards the former, but I am open to the possibility of the latter. 

 

In closing, if she is a virtuous person who acts on her morales, I am willing to act in accordance to her morals, then I am willing to get to know her better even though she initially cheated. It will be with the understanding that honesty must exist between us and that I am willing to follow my moral principles, though I am expecting consistency, not perfection. I also would want her to point out whenever I am not following my morals just as I would with her. If she is not the person I thought her to be, I would be willing to end our friendship since I am looking to free myself of manipulative relationships. Regardless, I plan to be honest and polite. 

 

Please continue to post advice, both for me and for others in a similar situation. I will report when I have the answer and have processed everything. 

 

Thank you!

-T

[tasmlab]

 

Just a personal anecdote, I had a girlfriend that I acquired while she had a boyfriend and, sure enough, she left me with another overlap between me and the new guy.  I later became good friends with the boyfriend before me and he had originally started the same with her and her  previous boyfriend. 

 

This is just one case, and maybe it could work in a situation, but if she doesn't cut off one of you within, say, a day, I'd be very suspect of her character.  IMO.

[MMX2010]

@Tservitive:  This will come across as rather harsh, but you don't understand what the problem is.  Nor do you understand that the problem is you.  (Thankfully, the problem you have is the problem that pretty much everyone has - so it's not like you're distinctly horrible; you're horrible like everyone else, and horrible like I used to be.) 

 

The problem is this: "In closing, if she is a virtuous person who acts on her morales, I am willing to act in accordance to her morals, then I am willing to get to know her better even though she initially cheated."  And the reason why that's the problem is this: "I do have the feeling that she was probing me for my character, though I am unsure specifically if it was due to wanting to date me, or wanting to use me. I am leaning towards the former, but I am open to the possibility of the latter."

 

She wasn't probing you for your character; she was probing you for your seriousness and ability to take responsibility for her actions.  How do I know?  Because for the past four years, I've been in a sexual relationship with a woman engaged to another man. 

 

Our sexual encounters always work the same way.  I escalate, and she strenuously objects without leaning away.  ("That's bad!", she says, as she kisses me back.  "No!", she says, as she sighs with pleasure without turning her body away.  "Why do you make me do that?", she opines while doing it.)  She uses her words as a way to protect herself from the importance of her actions, and (more crucially) as a way to permit herself to enjoy those actions.  She gets to love her fiancée because she said, "No!" and "That's bad!". 

 

---------------------

 

Your problem is that you think morality and character are displayed / discovered primarily through words.  She said, "I have a boyfriend!" and you took her at her word.  You thought, "She was trying to probe you for your character." - because that's what you would do if you were here.  But you are YOU and she is HER. 

 

Your plan is to ask her, honestly whether she's told her boyfriend?!? 

 

Certain questions are automatically and always ridiculous to ask because everyone knows why you're asking, and everyone knows what the correct answer already is.  Cases in point: (1) "Do you plan to murder me?" - If I truly don't, then I'll answer, "No, that's ridiculous."  But if I definitely do, then I can't answer "Yes" because you'll take self-protective measures.  So I'll also answer, "No, that's ridiculous."  (2) How many sexual partners have you had?" - When a man asks a woman this, she already knows why you're asking, (the minor reason: because you're seriously considering emotionally investing in her), and W-H-Y you're asking, (the major reason: because you're insecure about her sexual history), so she sizes you up and takes her Best Possible Guess as to the number that will make you commit to her.  She lies (or tells the truth) - and you either stay or you don't.  But she knows how to answer that question.

 

In your case, what makes you think this woman doesn't already know what the Best Answer is?  What makes you think the woman will say, "I've told him, and we're breaking up.", even though that's a lie, just to keep you around?

 

---------------------

 

The most ironic thing about Male/Female relationships is that every woman always aligns herself to a man's moral code.  She wants her man to take responsibility for all of the decisions she makes, and also wants him to "Just Get It" - that this is what she wants from him, and that it's his job to provide it. 

 

So it's not surprising that you, a man who is thoroughly unsure about his moral code but thinks it can be found through talking, is stuck on a girl who makes him unsure of what to do other than to pursue the truth by talking to her. 

[travioli]

This seems fairly complex, and I guess I will try to offer something novel to think about since a lot has already been addressed. I might be missing or oversimplyfing things...but the way I see it is a bit more straightforward and less "pro/con" intellectualizing. 

Whether or not cheating on her boy is good/bad, I think you should ask yourself what you would do in her situation. Like, would you feel proud of yourself if you found some girl who was seemingly way more virtuous than your current girlfriend? And that you had such a little bond with your current girlfriend that you didn't tell her, or were too scared to do so? And that this seemingly virtuous girl couldn't maturely handle the fact that you currently had a girlfriend without leaving? (I mean I assume she didn't tell you because she didn't want you to run away so fast--maybe insecurity). IMO It doesn't seem like very honorable stuff to me.

And even if you don't find problems with that--when you put it as if you did those actions--then why would she be with someone who isn't virtuous (her current boyfriend) if she is supposedly so attracted to virtue? How could she not have a strong enough bond with her current partner to tell him about this situation, IF she claims to like virtue? That seems like some sort of dichotomy of living her values. So again; how would you feel if you were doing what she was doing? 

This might be rather hard to do because of what I assume to be some pretty strong feelings/infatuation. But, that's why I set up the switching of roles--that could distance you from her as a person and think of this more of a situation. Alas, I think if you respond to it in terms of putting you in her shoes, you'll find out whether you'd do something like that and would still find it respectable. If the answer is no, then that's all the thinking you really need.

[MMX2010]

Someone posted, "If she cheated with you, then she'll cheat on you." 

 

I accept the sentiment behind the argument, but I don't accept the argument itself.  The sentiment is designed to protect a man's heart, but the argument is flawed because there are different types of cheating.  The worst type of cheating is the "You think everything is great, but she's been cheating on you for years." - but, ironically, a man who is the recipient of a cheating wife/girlfriend learns the excuses she offers.  So when those excuses are offered to him, he reacts by immediately suspecting that she's cheating.  (As opposed to her husband/boyfriend, who takes those excuses at face value.)

 

Of course, this IS NOT an argument for, "You should cheat with women to learn their excuses."  But it is an honest and relevant response to the argument, "If she cheated with you, then she'll cheat on you." 

[MrCapitalism]

I agree with everything you've said, except your phrasing, "She used her sexuality to insert you into a stable orbit." 

 

MMX, thanks for you addition, I think you're absolutely correct. I chastised him for denying her agency and then proceeded to deny his agency (or failed to mention it.) Thanks for pointing it out.

 

Whether or not cheating on her boy is good/bad, I think blah blah blah blah blah.

 

I don't know what to say to this.

[PatrickC]

In closing, if she is a virtuous person who acts on her morales, I am willing to act in accordance to her morals, then I am willing to get to know her better even though she initially cheated. It will be with the understanding that honesty must exist between us and that I am willing to follow my moral principles, though I am expecting consistency, not perfection. I also would want her to point out whenever I am not following my morals just as I would with her. If she is not the person I thought her to be, I would be willing to end our friendship since I am looking to free myself of manipulative relationships. Regardless, I plan to be honest and polite.

 

I think it's entirely plausible that this girl probably found herself in a hypergamous position, being Chinese and faced with the attentions of an American. It's probably what got her into the position of kissing you in the first place. Her eggs were screaming resources!

 

The only virtuous way out for her is to admit that or at least admit that she was wrong to kiss you, even if she doesn't connect it with her biology. 'Wrong' in light of her current relationship status and for her then to say, 'well I have a lot of thinking to do regarding my current boyfriend before we can make any progress'. Assuming she is telling you the truth about his existence and is not using it as a manipulative tool.

 

If she doesn't offer this up voluntarily herself, then you should prompt her by asking her questions about your first meeting and how she feels about it in regards to her current boyfriend. After which her answers will allow you to evaluate her values more objectively.

[J. D. Stembal]

Someone posted, "If she cheated with you, then she'll cheat on you." 

 

I accept the sentiment behind the argument, but I don't accept the argument itself.  The sentiment is designed to protect a man's heart, but the argument is flawed because there are different types of cheating.  The worst type of cheating is the "You think everything is great, but she's been cheating on you for years." - but, ironically, a man who is the recipient of a cheating wife/girlfriend learns the excuses she offers.  So when those excuses are offered to him, he reacts by immediately suspecting that she's cheating.  (As opposed to her husband/boyfriend, who takes those excuses at face value.)

 

Of course, this IS NOT an argument for, "You should cheat with women to learn their excuses."  But it is an honest and relevant response to the argument, "If she cheated with you, then she'll cheat on you." 

 

I'm going to generalize here but men and women cheat differently. Women pursue extra relationships because they want to trade up to the next man at some point in the future, while dealing maximum emotional and financial damage to the previous man.

 

Men who cheat on their spouses or girlfriends are sexually bored with their current partner. They may profess that they love her, and care about her, but they are not getting their needs met in the current relationship. The man will keep the transgression a secret. The traditional role of the prostitute was to give men this outlet. Feminism and the state has effectively ruined that option. Clean and attractive prostitutes are way too expensive for the average sexually frustrated man.

 

I know two men who have been married with children for over a decade and sometimes pay for escorts, masseuses, and streetwalkers to pleasure them sexually. Personally, I never had any interest in pros, but I'm not cornered by the state in a legally binding contract to keep my penis in check under threat of divorce lawyers.

[Jer]

Imagine she was your girlfiriend and she kissed this strange guy she only just met?

Tservitive, have you read Real Time Relationships? I found it to be extremely helpful and Patrick's suggestion is in line with the methodology in the book.

Don't compromise imo.

 

Our sexual encounters always work the same way.  I escalate, and she strenuously objects without leaning away.  ("That's bad!", she says, as she kisses me back.  "No!", she says, as she sighs with pleasure without turning her body away.  "Why do you make me do that?", she opines while doing it.)  She uses her words as a way to protect herself from the importance of her actions, and (more crucially) as a way to permit herself to enjoy those actions.  She gets to love her fiancée because she said, "No!" and "That's bad!". 

 

---------------------

 

Your plan is to ask her, honestly whether she's told her boyfriend?!? 

 

Certain questions are automatically and always ridiculous to ask because everyone knows why you're asking, and everyone knows what the correct answer already is.  Cases in point: (1) "Do you plan to murder me?" 

Wow, why would you do that? Pretty sure you could go to jail. There are way too many good single women out there to risk getting murdered by a jealous husband/BF.

 

Your analogy doesn't fit because if she lies and says "I have told my BF" OP can test it by approaching the BF...

[jp1131]

Personally I think kissing a girl after she tells you she has a boyfriend sends a bad message. To me it is like saying "you can have us both" which is not the message I would want to send. I would just be friends with her until her and her boyfriend break up and then see if she would be willing to pursue a relationship. I might be totally wrong but that is my initial reaction.

[MMX2010]

Tservitive: Any updates? 

[Tservitive]

Hey Everyone, thanks for the feedback. There are a number of updates.

 

What has happened since Tuesday the 17th:

• She is single and has been since Sunday
• She had wanted to take her time to think and break up due to the boyfriend's birthday occurring on the 18th and that she was living in his apartment at the time.
• We have meet up three times stating on the 17th
• We are not currently dating, but it is likely in the future

 

So this response may be a catch all intended to summarize things of note that have occurred and to try to best answer questions:

 

• I found out last time that the reason why she was with this guy in the first place was due to her friend group at the time. Initially, she had 4 other "friends" who were into this guy, but unlike her friends this girl is an extrovert. As a result, she began dating the boyfriend she broke up with and her "friends" essentially shunned her. Being betrayed/shunned by these "friends" is clearly an emotional issue for her for this is the only topic so far that she has asked me to not question her about further. I plan to ask more about this topic in the future, but you can't hammer a nail in one hit. My theory is that the major reason why she kept with this guy was because of the sunken loss fallacy and wanting to justify loosing her friends with any possible positive. The basis of my theory is that when I asked how big of a role losing her friends had on her relationship, she had given it approximately 60%, but most likely higher earlier on. And before anyone asks, she stated his attractiveness was about 25%.
• She does fine me attractive, but want time to process everything that has happened over the last two weeks. I don't blame her, in fact I completely understand. Based on my own experiences, I have needed to process my thoughts and emotions after a break up. As my therapist explained last Friday, "I would be concerned if this girl began a relationship with you immediately after breaking up with her boyfriend. The only thing you can do is give her time."
• So, I completely get hypergamy is a thing. I have seen it before and it is significantly un-talked about in society as a whole. But I agree with Stef that you cannot blame someone for a biological function. However, arguing to not trust her because of the existence of hypergamy is just an example of denying her agency. If hypergamy was the ONLY reason why she would dump her boyfriend for me, I would not want to spend more time with her. It is my firm opinion, tested for the null and open to change in light of future evidence, that even if she is guided by her hypergamy to choose me, her interest in me is based more heavily on my character. I  am not a neophyte with regards to romance, I have been involved with a few girls. The problem was that prior to about 9 moths ago, I was more heavily influenced by big tits and a nice ass than I would like to admit. However, since discovering FDR, I have used morality, character, and personality as my primary basis for romantic involvement rather than physicality. I do this because I want to have children in the future and I'll be damned if they are raised by a bitch that I had found sexy before she steals half of my wealth and shits on my heart. 
• So, I have read Real Time Relationships early this January and I agree with Stef, both his conclusions in the book as well as some other comments that he has made on the podcast related to RTR. Romantic relationships should be based on picking people who would make gray parents for my kids, and expressing emotions without attributing knee-jerk causes to them is important. I see nothing of concern for this girl and me about RTR. She has not read the book, but I am sure she is open to the idea based on the nature of our conversations.
• She has been in therapy, and I see this as a plus in that I do it too and it is good to have an objective outside perspective to answer questions about our lives/ pursue self knowledge. This is also an example that she does practices what she preaches, aiding to my ability to trust her.

 

I've got class pretty soon, but I want to conclude by saying that I do appreciate all of the feedback that I have received. I really do like this girl, she seems to like me, and I believe (I should get a thesaurus) that we like each other because of our characters and personalities rather than just baseline physical lusts. The way I read some of the comments made me feel like Claude Frollo for Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame when he's singing "Hellfire." This is not the case at all, but it still sent a shiver down my spine imagining that.

 

I will update occasionally to let others know about how things are going on this end. However, short of any questions or some sort of flame war, I probably won't be on this topic for a while. Still, anyone who has advice, either for me or for others in a similar situation, are more than welcome to reply/comment.

 

Thank you all, I really appreciate your concern!

-T

[PatrickC]

So, I completely get hypergamy is a thing. I have seen it before and it is significantly un-talked about in society as a whole. But I agree with Stef that you cannot blame someone for a biological function. However, arguing to not trust her because of the existence of hypergamy is just an example of denying her agency. If hypergamy was the ONLY reason why she would dump her boyfriend for me, I would not want to spend more time with her. It is my firm opinion, tested for the null and open to change in light of future evidence, that even if she is guided by her hypergamy to choose me, her interest in me is based more heavily on my character. I  am not a neophyte with regards to romance, I have been involved with a few girls. The problem was that prior to about 9 moths ago, I was more heavily influenced by big tits and a nice ass than I would like to admit. However, since discovering FDR, I have used morality, character, and personality as my primary basis for romantic involvement rather than physicality. I do this because I want to have children in the future and I'll be damned if they are raised by a bitch that I had found sexy before she steals half of my wealth and shits on my heart.

 

Just wanted to point out that I never suggested that she was continuing to act on hypergamy. Neither did I say that the existence of it therefore nullifies any chance of a romantic relationship. I was merely pointing out that it was something to be aware of and might actually have been a reason for her initial indiscretion with you. Her then distancing from you in light of this indiscretion may well have been her re-evaluating her situation perhaps.

 

I found out last time that the reason why she was with this guy in the first place was due to her friend group at the time. Initially, she had 4 other "friends" who were into this guy, but unlike her friends this girl is an extrovert. As a result, she began dating the boyfriend she broke up with and her "friends" essentially shunned her. Being betrayed/shunned by these "friends" is clearly an emotional issue for her for this is the only topic so far that she has asked me to not question her about further. I plan to ask more about this topic in the future, but you can't hammer a nail in one hit. My theory is that the major reason why she kept with this guy was because of the sunken loss fallacy and wanting to justify loosing her friends with any possible positive. The basis of my theory is that when I asked how big of a role losing her friends had on her relationship, she had given it approximately 60%, but most likely higher earlier on. And before anyone asks, she stated his attractiveness was about 25%.

 

Just as an aside, I'm hearing a lot of excuses here that she is making and no ownership of errors that she may have made. Her reticence to discuss the topic of friends betraying her any further is also disquieting. I get that some sensitivity is occasionally required at the beginning of a relationship, but given the continued red flags that keep appearing that this topic seems essential to talk about. I'd almost go as far as to say it could be a deal breaker and she knows it. Which is potentially why she is remaining quiet on it.

 

That said, you seem to have made your mind up (for now) and you are at least going to question her further on her experiences with her friends at a later point. Just don't get drawn into protecting her from bad decisions she may have made. If only for your own happiness. Best of luck.

[MMX2010]

Best of luck; keep us updated. 

[Tweak]

One thing that I think you need to consider is the fact that she comes from a dirt poor country. And since the other guy as you said was " emotionlessness and passivity of her current boyfriend" might not be the one offering a ring and a stay in the country...

 

You also said that she has been the dominant one in her previous relationships and on top of that offered to go to her place to cook.

 

Some women from poorer countries are very good at letting one hear what one wants. 

 

These things, I have to say screams greencard. 

 

You seem like a very good guy so please don´t be a NoNuts kind of guy thats being taken advantaged of.

 

I don´t know what she is like except from what you wrote so I hope that I just shined a possibility at you and in no way saying that "this is the way it is".

[firefop]

One thing that I think you need to consider is the fact that she comes from a dirt poor country. And since the other guy as you said was " emotionlessness and passivity of her current boyfriend" might not be the one offering a ring and a stay in the country...

 

You also said that she has been the dominant one in her previous relationships and on top of that offered to go to her place to cook.

 

Some women from poorer countries are very good at letting one hear what one wants. 

 

These things, I have to say screams greencard. 

 

You seem like a very good guy so please don´t be a NoNuts kind of guy thats being taken advantaged of.

 

I don´t know what she is like except from what you wrote so I hope that I just shined a possibility at you and in no way saying that "this is the way it is".

I'm finding it difficult to disagree with your feeling that it might be greencard related. But I don't really think that's a difficult question to answer. At some point (promptly after starting any sort of relationship?) the truth becomes very easy to get to. Either she's going to accept being confronted on the previously mentioned emotional issue around her friendships & betrayal or she won't. If she doesn't it can only be because she isn't willing to seriously invest in the new relationship. If she responds well to that (and other times that issues are pursued) then he'll know that she's willing to invest emotionally... in which case the greencard question becomes moot.

[J. D. Stembal]

Best of luck; keep us updated. 

 

This is the shortest MMX reply I have ever seen. How are you feeling?

 

 

She had wanted to take her time to think and break up due to the boyfriend's birthday occurring on the 18th and that she was living in his apartment

 

That is one cagey exit strategy to break up with a live-in boyfriend the day before his birthday.

 

Your latest post, in conjunction with your previous posts, has all the trappings of a propaganda piece. I will elaborate.

 

 

I found out last time that the reason why she was with this guy in the first place was due to her friend group at the time. Initially, she had 4 other "friends" who were into this guy, but unlike her friends this girl is an extrovert. As a result, she began dating the boyfriend she broke up with and her "friends" essentially shunned her.

 

This makes no sense, and you should be very concerned about it especially since she doesn't want to talk about it. It is an ex post facto whitewash. If it is true that all five women were after the same man (highly unlikely), the other four would be very happy for her and try to live vicariously through her happiness. It is more likely that she shunned her friends when she began seeing her ex-boyfriend for some as yet unknown reason.

 

I would talk with one of these former friends if you are able.

 

The above also contradicts an earlier observation of her:

 

 

 

She is emotionally present and expresses them freely with me

 

 

My theory is that the major reason why she kept with this guy was because of the sunken loss fallacy and wanting to justify loosing her friends with any possible positive.

 

With the real status of the four other women in question, this theory also has a shaky foundation. How long was she living with the ex? It is more likely that the sunken loss fallacy applies to boyfriend, unless she paid for exactly half of everything while living with him. What are the chances she was selling herself to the man for subsidized rent?

 

 

...she stated his attractiveness was about 25%. She does fine me attractive, but want time to process everything that has happened over the last two weeks.

 

Why would she date anyone to which she was only 1/4 attracted? This also casts doubt on the likelihood that four other women were attracted to him at the same time. If she likes dating an unattractive man while living in his apartment, why is she remotely interested in dating you?

 

It is likely that she needs more time to think about it, so she can 1) find a new place to live 2) find a more suitable man to date.

 

I would also like to re-introduce into the discussion that she spent one whole evening with you making out when she was living with another man.

 

Also, check this out from reply #19:

 

I have been in 5 relationships that have lasted no more than 9 months the longest, but most around 3-5 months. Most of these were with manipulate women.

 

...

 

One of my relationships was the inadvertent result of cheating with a girl who was still dating a guy but told me that she broke up with him before we began dating. She was my first lay, which blinded me to the reality of the situation.

 

...

 

Not being able to take personal responsibility is certainly a form of dishonesty.

 

Are you being honest with yourself? From where I'm standing, it appears as though this girl fits precisely into your dating history. I could be wrong, but there are already at least three red flags waving in front of your face.

 

I really do like this girl, she seems to like me, and I believe (I should get a thesaurus) that we like each other because of our characters and personalities rather than just baseline physical lusts.

 

I will update occasionally to let others know about how things are going on this end. However, short of any questions or some sort of flame war, I probably won't be on this topic for a while. Still, anyone who has advice, either for me or for others in a similar situation, are more than welcome to reply/comment.

 

I don't see any evidence that this relationship is based on character. There's also the very long discussion about her citizenship to consider. I will speculate without any evidence that the reason she started flirting and making out with you is because her ex-boyfriend had no interested in marrying her or having children.

 

Please don't wander too far from this thread! I think you are swimming in barracuda infested waters.