Friendships with Exes

[notsomeguy]

Hey folks. On a recent call-in show, Stefan said that honest friendships with exes are 'not possible'. And no, I'm not talking about executables. Well, I'm friends with an ex of mine. We're both in long-term relationships, and I don't see how it is unhealthy or deceptive.

 

But I have some history of my own with people staying friends after break-ups... My parents, after divorcing (+1 ACE points), remained on very good terms. My attitude is that they fucked up in not working out their issues, but I did not mind them remaining friendly. But clearly I might have a bias here, so I'd like some input on this matter.

 

what do you guys think? Why can't one remain friends with an ex?

[notsomeguy]

I got the impression that Stefan was saying that "it is not possible" to have a mutually healthy friendship with an ex. I interpreted this as an unconditional statement, So I was wondering if someone had an unconditional case to make about it. It's like abusive relationships are unconditionally bad -- you don't have to know the specifics to know it's bad (though the details help in determining how bad). And, as an aside, Stefan was saying this in the context of a relationship with an ex which was clearly unhealthy.

 

So - definitions: a "friend" is someone with whom I share an intellectual and emotional connection, and an "ex" is -- well, this seems a bit redundant, but -- someone with whom I used to have a friend connection plus a sexual connection.

 

But there might be a wider-ranging conversation to be had here, so here are the details of my situation:

I'm late 20s, we had this relationship back in my college days, and it laster for 2 (3?) years. We ended it mutually -- in the abstract, our childhood trauma experiences did not mesh. She wanted validation and tended towards the superstitious, and I had little to no tolerance for vanity (this is still the case), and was dismissive of her issues with superstition. I also was quite against tokens of affection -- flowers, valentine's day cards, etc. I much prefer to say 'i love you' with actions, rather than words or things. She had a pretty fucked up family dynamic, which I recognized and called out at the time, but I did not connect it to her hangups until much later (thanks, FDR!).

 

That's the short of it. I listened to some of this Tom Leykis thing -- you could say I'm a bit conservative for this player lifestyle perspective ("you're 19 -- why do you have a girlfriend?" is an attutude it'd probably stay the hell away from) he's coming from, but we don't talk avery day or borrow cars. We meet up once every month or two, talk about interesting stuff, I don't think either one of us is supplanting our romantic relationships with this friendship. My girlfriend (of 4 years) was suspicous at first, but not anymore.

 

To sum things up, our histories made a long-term relationship too grating for both of us, but we can maintain a pretty solid friendship, and good friends are hard to come by.

[PatrickC]

Hey folks. On a recent call-in show, Stefan said that honest friendships with exes are 'not possible'. And no, I'm not talking about executables. Well, I'm friends with an ex of mine. We're both in long-term relationships, and I don't see how it is unhealthy or deceptive.

 

Well in the context of that call, it was pretty clear that the boyfriend was dabbling with unprocessed feelings for his ex. He had also admitted to his girlfriend that this ex had ripped his heart out in the past. So the caller would have had every reason to tell him it was a bad idea.

 

In this regard remaining friends with the ex was both deceptive and unhealthy. The fact that you say it works for you, doesn't mean anything. My question would be, why do you want to be friends with your ex, when you both decided to break up?

[Drew.]

I certainly haven't listened to the call, but I do have some thoughts about remaining friends afterwards.

 

Generally, I think that it's a bad idea. In most relationships, there is a lot of projection and fusion by fantasy fulfilment for unmet childhood needs. I think that splitting but remaining friends will inhibit self-exploration and healing--why did the relationship fail?

 

If I understand correctly, you split up with this woman years ago, and now you meet her every so often. I think that's more of a grey situation. I hope that both of you have grown as people since then, and if that's the case then you're not really the same people who dated in the first place. On the other hand, maybe there are some relationship dynamics going on like there was in your college age.

 

But hey, I don't know the specifics of the situation nor have I really given this subject much thought, so take my perspectives for what it's worth.

[notsomeguy]

I don't want to turn this into a discussion about Tom Leykis, just that his suggestion that it's ridiculous to have a girlfriend at 19 sounded, well, ridiculous to me. I don't know what you mean about 'my answer being "we have unprocessed childhood trauma"'. It was a comment on his attitude towards relationships, so I don't think you understood me correctly -- or perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

 

 

What does your current girlfriend think and feel about you spending time with your ex now and are they friends with one another?

My gf was uncomfortable with it when we first got together, but not anymore. They're friendly, but not friends. These days my gf interested in how she's doing and such, the way one would be intested in a significant other's friends one does not see often. ("Hey, have you spoken to Bob lately? How's he doing?")

 

 

Does your current girlfriend know you made this post and are engaged in this thread?

 No, but I just sent her a link. We're apart for a week due to a work/vacation incongruity, and she fell asleep early last night, so I hadn't yet shared this post with her.

 

 

(As an aside, the moderation delay makes it tough for me to engage in this conversation -- my response had preempred PatrickC's questions, but he was unable to see it at the time.)

[notsomeguy]

While my other respone is in moderator limbo, let me reference the call-in-show so you can check it yourself.

Here's what prompted my question:
 

@40:25 : You don't get to downgrade lovers to just 'oh they're friends now'. I mean that's all Seinfeld and Friends nonsense. It's corrosive.

@41:55 : When you're lovers, you're united, and you're one, and you're intimate, and you share everything, right? And you can't then downgrade that kind of relationship to friendship. The reason being -- because you've been lovers you can't talk about any of your current romantic relationships with your ex-lovers. Which means there's a huge chunk of non-intimacy in what was formerly the most intimate relationship you have. So trying to be friends with your ex-lovers is like starting in the mail room, working your way all the way up to CEO, and then applying for a job in the mail room again. Nope! Can't downgrade it. You can't go from "We talk about everything" to "Now we can't talk about most of the things going on in my life because you're an ex."

The context of that conversation is that the caller's boyfriend was fooling around with an ex, and lying about it, but I think the statement at 41:55 was stated as true regardless of circumstances.

[PatrickC]

The thing about ex's, is why continue engaging with them. What is the real benefit? You say that it's because you share an intellectual and emotional bond, but to what end? But you can share these bonds with other people that you weren't so intimately involved with once.

 

You said one of the reasons you couldn't deal with her as a girlfriend was because of her draw to superstition and vanity. This is important because what has changed in that regard? Certainly your opinion of these issues as you stated has not changed. So has she now changed and no longer drawn to these issues? More often than not having ex's as friends even if you can deal with it platonically, doesn't mean the ex necessarily can, even if he or she says they can.

 

By the way, something that crops up a lot when Stefan says something, is people often feel that he is laying down the law. This isn't a moral issue at all just an important observation to make in a partner you are dating. 

 

I can definitely say that it would be a red flag for me, if a women I was dating was hanging out with her ex. Not necessarily a deal breaker if she then processed her real reasons for it and then decided to give up the friendship. But I personally wouldn't go near her romantically until she had.

[notsomeguy]

The thing about ex's, is why continue engaging with them. What is the real benefit? You say that it's because you share an intellectual and emotional bond, but to what end? But you can share these bonds with other people that you weren't so intimately involved with once.

To what end are bonds shared with people, if not for self-fulfillment for each person? Like I said, good people are in short supply, and of course I can share these bonds with other people as well. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

You said one of the reasons you couldn't deal with her as a girlfriend was because of her draw to superstition and vanity. This is important because what has changed in that regard? Certainly your opinion of these issues as you stated has not changed. So has she now changed and no longer drawn to these issues?

My opinion of those issues has not changed (that is, they are counter-rational), but my understanding of them has changed indeed, as I now recognize these mental habits as adaptations to traumatic experiences. For me, these qualities are too repellent for an intimate long-term relationship, but are tolerable in an otherwise rewarding friendship.

For example, vanity as an expression of the need for validation is much stronger in an intimate relationship than a friendship.

 

To take the mailroom to CEO to mailroom analogy: What if after working up to CEO level, you find that the board members are too difficult to deal with? What if you step down from CEO to midlevel employee, or part-time contractor? This way you don't need to deal with the board members, but can stick around if you appreciate the other employees and the work you do.

(I like my analogies stretchy.)

 

More often than not having ex's as friends even if you can deal with it platonically, doesn't mean the ex necessarily can, even if he or she says they can.

This is definitely worth exploring. I'll get back to you on this.

 

By the way, something that crops up a lot when Stefan says something, is people often feel that he is laying down the law. This isn't a moral issue at all just an important observation to make in a partner you are dating.

Yeah, I get that. It still sounded to me like Stefan was making an unconditional (i.e. universal) argument. It was not hedged with "in this situation", or "in your case" or "if this were happening to me". The argument clearly applied in the caller's case. I'm checking if it is universalizable and if it applies in my case as well.

 

I can definitely say that it would be a red flag for me, if a women I was dating was hanging out with her ex. Not necessarily a deal breaker if she then processed her real reasons for it and then decided to give up the friendship. But I personally wouldn't go near her romantically until she had.

I'm with you until the "and then decided to give up the friendship" part. Thanks for your perspective. I think I'm going to challenge my ex to consider whether she's supplementing her intimate relationship with our friendship, and see how she responds.

[A Madman Person Guy]

The context of that conversation is that the caller's boyfriend was fooling around with an ex, and lying about it, but I think the statement at 41:55 was stated as true regardless of circumstances.

I think that I actually have to disagree with that, if for no other reason than the anecdotal (not that I won't try and make a plausible logical explanation). In my experience, and the way I see things, it's actually the other way around. At least, as far as male-female relationships are concerned. Because a man can't be a genuine friend of a woman he's attracted to without either being used or becoming miserable, and a woman can't be a genuine friend of a man she's attracted to without feeding some serious insecurity issues or, again, becoming miserable. The man wants to act on the sexual tension immediately, because male sexuality works like that, wants confirmation of his masculinity and wants not to be used. The woman, conversely, traditionally doesn't have to worry nearly as much about getting exploited, and has a much easier time staying "just friends" when the situation isn't reciprocal, but if she can't confirm her attractiveness or "anchor" her emotions through some other means she will likely start developing a devastating inferiority complex. And from either position it's a short step between unrequited love and spite. Usually it's only when the sexual tension of the situation has been disarmed, either through them already having sex or some other coincidence, that they can view each other in a more rational, emotionally calm manner.

 

I do contradict my own theory at times, I'll admit. Particularly back in school I had mainly female friends, some of which I've kept, several of whose bones I'd jump with a good enough excuse. But looking at those relationships, I would maintain that they're atypical for any average male. And I would maintain that the reason I'm able to do this sort of thing isn't because of a healthy, normal male mentality; rather, I can act like this because I'm one of those unpleasant people who has that little "Emotions On/Off" toggle in my head for me to flip at will. A dissociation that most guys don't have, and which isn't stable in the long run. Which I'd argue is a good thing; if people could completely put a lid on their feelings for one another for the sake of proximate reasons we'd have stopped breeding a long time ago.

Sex gets in the way, as usual. Without it complicating the equation of human interaction, you suspect that people would suddenly be able to think a lot more clearly. Though the further implications of that should be stuff for another thread, I suspect.

[Bouncelot]

I have been attempting to define/maintain a friendship with an ex. This is my first time attempting this, and it has brought up some interesting questions.

 

If you look at it as "Love is an involuntary response to virtue.", which is the way I have always looked at things. Then "Why did you break up?"

becomes an important question. If you no longer love them, was it because they turned out to not be as virtuous as you thought?  If so, why would you want that person as a friend?

 

To me, I find friendship to not be very different from a romantic relationship. The only difference is that in a romantic relationship there is physical/chemical attraction that leads to slightly more expectations. But at its base it follows all the same rules as a friendship.

As I don't believe physical/chemical attraction "goes away" IF you entered into the relationship with a clear mind and long term goals (it wasn't just some fling)

 

Based on this I don't really think it is under "normal" circumstances possible. If you are not longer together, there were reasons, and those same reasons should make you question the friendship.

 

Can Ex's be civil? can they hang out in the same groups? Can they be acquaintances? sure! But good friends? If the attraction is there then it does not make sense to be friends, when you could be more; and if it isn't you need to understand why.

 

 

That said, I think there are always exceptions. In the case of my Ex, she is not in a very good place, extremely inundated with family issues (she is in the process of swallowing the red pill), and simply does not have the capacity. So I thought I would give it a try.

What I wasn't expecting (which I should have), is that those same issues also prevent her from maintaining a proper friendship as well.

[perrytheplat]

I agree with Stefan that you cannot downgrade relationships. You either have the best type of relationships possible or you have no relationship at all. It's a fraud and it's damaging to pretend to be friends with someone who was your lover.

 

My ex left me last August. She wanted to remain friends. After taking some time to think about that, I told her that it just was not possible. It made no sense. We were going to love each other and have wonderful experiences except "here", "here", and "here ... and she decided that we were incompatiblbe somehow? She didn't want to discuss anything or communicate feelings at all. She wanted to ask about my feelings after I had felt taken advantage of ... and then use them to attack me?

 

If we were somehow incompatible as lovers after 6 months ... what would make her in the same phrase ... think that we would even be remotely compatible as friends?