utopian Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 I remember Stef once talking about mirror neurons, and that they have something to do with the ability to emphasize. They are developed during childhood when parents make eye contact with their children. I have been looking at some videos where mothers are looking at their children. There is even one of them where a woman is singing to her baby, and he starts crying happily. This thread of thought is all about me, because I dont think I am able to empathize. I can sympathize. I can deduce that I would not like if something happened to me, and thus that another person must not enjoy if something happened to them. But I can't understand how people are feeling. It makes me think of my childhood. I can't remember my parents ever looking at me, like a human. I can remember being treated like an object. I can remember my dad hitting me when I was 2. But I cant remember them ever looking at me in the eye. Part of why I am on this forum is to explore problems like this, and see if I can do anything about it, but Stef often says things like "a person who has not grown mirror neurons his whole life is not going to suddenly grow them and start doing good things". This seems to make sense, as I have always had people problems. I wonder, if I always will.
J. D. Stembal Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 Try an experiment. Attempt to make eye contact with as many people around you as you can, and take notes on who looks at you and sees you, and who looks at you and quickly avoids seeing you by looking away. I've started doing this and I'm finding that a lot more strangers want to talk to me. You don't have to start or carry on conversations with everyone because no one has the time for that. It's easy to see how many people are closed off in public which doesn't exactly demonstrate individual lack of empathy, but a general measurement of people's willingness to empathize or be curious. This may help put your feelings about empathy in perspective. I've also noticed that women are far quicker to avert their gaze where men are more likely to not ever look at me directly. I am male, just to point out.
Matt D Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 I remember Stef once talking about mirror neurons, and that they have something to do with the ability to emphasize. They are developed during childhood when parents make eye contact with their children. I have been looking at some videos where mothers are looking at their children. There is even one of them where a woman is singing to her baby, and he starts crying happily. This thread of thought is all about me, because I dont think I am able to empathize. I can sympathize. I can deduce that I would not like if something happened to me, and thus that another person must not enjoy if something happened to them. But I can't understand how people are feeling. It makes me think of my childhood. I can't remember my parents ever looking at me, like a human. I can remember being treated like an object. I can remember my dad hitting me when I was 2. But I cant remember them ever looking at me in the eye. Part of why I am on this forum is to explore problems like this, and see if I can do anything about it, but Stef often says things like "a person who has not grown mirror neurons his whole life is not going to suddenly grow them and start doing good things". This seems to make sense, as I have always had people problems. I wonder, if I always will. The following is information from the book 'Empathy' by Roman Krznaric. Simon Baron-Cohen, a Cambridge psychologist, says: "Some people are quick to assume that mirror neurons alone can be equated with empathy, but in reality the mirror neuron system may simply be the building blocks for empathy." Neuroscientists at the University of Washington have extended our understanding of the circuit. They have found core brain areas closely associated with cognitive or perspective-taking empathy, which stimulate activity in regions known as the posterior cingulate/precuneus and the right temporoparietal junction. In practice this means, for example, that particular parts of the brain are active when we think about getting one of our fingers pinched in a door, but when we think about this happening to another person, alongside some of the same pain-processing regions being active, there are other cognitive empathy hotspots that are switched on. According to the researchers, these distinctive ways in which our brains respond to our own and other people's pain reveals that "empathy does not involve a complete Self-Other merging," and may be "what allows us to distinguish empathic responses to others versus our own personal distress." (Empathy, 25) People with boderline personality disorder have developed smaller than average amygdalas and experience less neural activity in the frontal and temporal cortex. In cases of extreme damage it can be difficult for the person to recognize emotions like fear in others' faces. Krznaric analogizes empathic skill to musical ability. The younger you are exposed to it the easier it is to pick up. But a fifty year old can still learn to play piano. Your parents may not have exhibited this towards you but perhaps you had another teacher or caregiver who demonstrated empathy. Children, like seeds, can take root even with precious little nourishment. My first guess would not be that you lack the ability to empathize with others. My instinct says that you have an internal block where a part of you doesn't want to feel what other's feel. Let me ask you: do you find that you can empathize with yourself as a child?
Pepin Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 I'm quite sorry about your experience. Sounds very difficult. Have you considered going to see a therapist? Often times we cannot feel the emotions of others when we don't allow ourselves to feel our own emotions. If we repress sadness within ourselves, when someone tells us something sad, we are unable to empathize because we are still blocking sadness. I was somewhat similar, and with self-work and therapy have gotten much better. I used to think I didn't have really have emotions, but it was rather that I didn't really experience them. Ironically, I think I understand people a little too well as I always have a good idea of how they are going to act and what they are going to say. It is pretty easy to understand their emotional states. My issue is more with being open with them and connecting. What I don't understand very well is social convention and what people find offensive.
utopian Posted March 8, 2015 Author Posted March 8, 2015 Try an experiment... I tried this today, and noticed two things. One, I noticed that I hardly ever look at people. I only really look at people when its necessary to do business or trade information. Two, when I do look at people eye to eye, I feel like they can read my mind. I feel ashamed, or strange, feeling what I am feeling, and feeling like people can know what I am thinking. I have certain beliefs and follow certain sciences that suggest its actually possible, though not yet provable. I think this principle is most obvious with women, the "women intuition" thing. I feel like they can certainly tell what I am thinking, and for me to look at people when it seems so obvious is too intense for me, and I cant look at people. It doesnt help I have no social skills. No one has talked to me today though. Even at work. My first guess would not be that you lack the ability to empathize with others. My instinct says that you have an internal block where a part of you doesn't want to feel what other's feel. Let me ask you: do you find that you can empathize with yourself as a child? First off thank you for that well cited response Matt, I really appreciate it. Second, there may be something to this "internal block" thing. I often feel like no one cares about me, and so I have no reason to care about others. I feel it is fairly evident given that absolutely no one strives to talk and interact with me, like complete strangers. It has never made sense. I know in order for people to have friends, someone must have had to initiate a first reaction with someone. But it never happens with me. Now I am thinking, perhaps the not looking at people thing has something to do with it. Third, the "empathize with MYSELF as a CHILD" thing... is mind blowing. I feel at such a loss. I have a hard time grasping this concept. To empathize with myself, as a child. To UNDERSTAND how I was feeling as a child? I know what I was feeling at the time. When my dad hit me at 2 for example, I had absolutely no idea why he was hitting me. It just came out of nowhere all of the sudden. I did not have words to describe, or ask, or understand. All I could do was feel, and what I was feeling was a desperation, a dramatic desire to know why? I love you! Why are you hitting me?!? I remember after he hit me I started crying and held desperately to his leg. I dont remember much else. Does that answer your question? Have you considered going to see a therapist? Often times we cannot feel the emotions of others when we don't allow ourselves to feel our own emotions. If we repress sadness within ourselves, when someone tells us something sad, we are unable to empathize because we are still blocking sadness. I was somewhat similar, and with self-work and therapy have gotten much better. I used to think I didn't have really have emotions, but it was rather that I didn't really experience them. Ironically, I think I understand people a little too well as I always have a good idea of how they are going to act and what they are going to say. I have been in and out of therapy my whole life, it has never helped me. I am here because philosophy has been the most helpful thing I have ever found. I do have emotions, and I express them in certain ways, but never to people. There is no one I even have in my life that would care to hear it.
Filip Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 I can really back up what Pipin said. I was exactly in your situation, and I was quite afraid that empathy would be something that is forever lost to me. Interestengly though, after having explored (and empathized with) my painful childhood memories, I began feeling empathy for the experiences of others. I'm still in the process of learning this skill, but what truly opened up the floodgate was when I first allowed myself to feel the genuine pain that I have been suppressing for so long. Having a therapist as witness made that a lot easier, but I don't think it was an absolutely necessary condition.
Omegahero09 Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Utopian, can you empathize with fictional characters? Do you feel their loss, or their anger, or their joy etc when you consume visual media?
utopian Posted March 9, 2015 Author Posted March 9, 2015 Utopian, can you empathize with fictional characters? Do you feel their loss, or their anger, or their joy etc when you consume visual media? Often, I cannot. The most prominent character I can think of empathizing with was a character named Rastlin in the Dragonlance series, when I read it a good long while ago. Some other books, to a lesser extent. Any visual media however I genuinely do not empathize with.
Matt D Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 Third, the "empathize with MYSELF as a CHILD" thing... is mind blowing. I feel at such a loss. I have a hard time grasping this concept. To empathize with myself, as a child. To UNDERSTAND how I was feeling as a child? I know what I was feeling at the time. When my dad hit me at 2 for example, I had absolutely no idea why he was hitting me. It just came out of nowhere all of the sudden. I did not have words to describe, or ask, or understand. All I could do was feel, and what I was feeling was a desperation, a dramatic desire to know why? I love you! Why are you hitting me?!? I remember after he hit me I started crying and held desperately to his leg. I dont remember much else. Does that answer your question? I have been in and out of therapy my whole life, it has never helped me. I am here because philosophy has been the most helpful thing I have ever found. I do have emotions, and I express them in certain ways, but never to people. There is no one I even have in my life that would care to hear it. No, I don't mean understanding his feeling at the time. As was mentioned in the paragraph I quoted from above, imagining how you felt when you were the child and empathizing with that child today, like he is in the room beside you, activate differently in our brains. You indicate that you can do the former but you short circuit when thinking about the latter. Which means, I think, that's where you need to go. You say there is no one in your life who cares to hear it -- so be that person who does care to hear it! If you can get your hands on John Bradshaw's 'Homecoming' audio recording meditation, that would be where I would start. Going to therapy is rarely a bad idea in these cases, but if you can get in touch with your emotions for yourself as a child that will save a lot of time should you eventually, as I hope you will, find the right therapist to help when you're ready to empathize with others.
Omegahero09 Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Often, I cannot. The most prominent character I can think of empathizing with was a character named Rastlin in the Dragonlance series, when I read it a good long while ago. Some other books, to a lesser extent. Any visual media however I genuinely do not empathize with. What was it in Rastlin that you found empathy in?
utopian Posted March 10, 2015 Author Posted March 10, 2015 Thanks love, thats some interesting food for thought. I like that bit about reflecting between people. I often don't, but neither do others towards me, or ask questions as if they are curious and such. As was mentioned in the paragraph I quoted from above, imagining how you felt when you were the child and empathizing with that child today, like he is in the room beside you, activate differently in our brains. You indicate that you can do the former but you short circuit when thinking about the latter. Which means, I think, that's where you need to go. You say there is no one in your life who cares to hear it -- so be that person who does care to hear it! If you can get your hands on John Bradshaw's 'Homecoming' audio recording meditation, that would be where I would start. Going to therapy is rarely a bad idea in these cases, but if you can get in touch with your emotions for yourself as a child that will save a lot of time should you eventually, as I hope you will, find the right therapist to help when you're ready to empathize with others. Hmm... I think if I started to empathize with what happened to me as a child today, I would be fairly angry and violent. There was some fucked up shit. I will see about John's recording. What was it in Rastlin that you found empathy in? His weakness, his desire for greatness, his struggles in that endeavor. Its a medieval fantasy novel where he becomes a god, but he starts out as human, and lives a life as an intelligent, physically frail and hurt person, surrounded by unthinking strong neanderthals. There are several novels he is in I might go for days talking about it.
Matt D Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 Hmm... I think if I started to empathize with what happened to me as a child today, I would be fairly angry and violent. There was some fucked up shit. I will see about John's recording. I'm sure you have good reason to be angry. Pm me if you want to skype about this.
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