Andre1332 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I would like to hear your toughs on the https://freestateproject.org/. The low tax and free market parts sure caught my attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_NH Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I'm sure others will answer as well as there are a lot of opinions out in the wild that speculate whether the FSP will eventually succeed or fail. For those of us already in NH, it is pretty clear that for what matters in our day to day lives, the FSP has already succeeded. The FSP is no longer proof of concept, alpha testing or beta testing. It is here and real. As you probably know, the idea behind the FSP is that once 20,000 people sign a statement of intent everyone who has signed is supposed to move to NH within 5 years. > 1600 people have moved early and are already living in the state. There have been successes and failures over the years but one thing that has succeeded is that there is a large/active community of pro-liberty people here. On almost any day, you can find an FSP or liberty related meet up event to go to. Sometimes they are small, sometimes they are large but they are always happening. The annual Liberty Forum event just came to a close this morning. In manchester NH, the weekly bitcoin meetup will still be happening tonight. If you go, probably >50% of the people at that meetup will be people who did not even bother to go to Liberty Forum. At the same time, just 15 minutes away in Nashua the weekly Nashua social meetup will be going on. My wife and I will be a few minutes late to it because she'll be at the monthly women's defense league shoot providing entry level firearms training and a social meetup event where there will probably be > 20 women shooters at least half of which will be first time or very early in their experiences. One thing I found interesting at Liberty Forum is that there were no explicit talks about Peaceful Parenting but oddly enough I think on the whole this was a positive thing - I know, hard to believe around here. How can I say that? Well, I only was in a small number of the various talks at the event. In two of those events as we went to the Q & A section and people starting discussing the best way to move forward with some aspect of the topic at hand, several people would suggest that peaceful parenting would play some role in it and there was wide agreement and additional discussions on the topic - so much so that although we clearly have a long way to go, it is starting to become part of the culter that we want to take for granted that everyone in the community agrees with (Obviously this is a bit optimistic on the part of people but libertarians tend to be an optimistic bunch). Still I thought it was cool how much this is starting to become part of the culture. Still I wish we had a specific session on it for people from out of state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zurtweiter Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I have some issues with the project, tell me if you object to any of my points. 1st: Definition of goals: Do you simply want a slightly looser leach? Because that's what it is. A factory farm where people are sold freedom in the form of a couple more inches of space in their cages. Maybe if you have kids and are an american citizent it could be a different story, if it "succeeds", it could be the freest place on earth, but it's important not to think of it as the paradise they claim it to be. And, lets do the math:Total pop: 1,326,813(in case every participant actually moves) Moverpop: ~20.000 We are talking 1 "libertarian" in about 68 peasants (jk), Do you want Sparta? 'cause that's how you get Sparta! Even if it's deemed possible to define rational people by faith, about 26% of the people in NH consider themselves non religious. Lets do a bizarre overestimation and believe half of them are somewhat close to the moverpop in values, ideals and intellectual capacity and can by the grace of the holy spirit be converted into great people, we are still talking in something along the lines of a 1 in 8 proportion. Since the project didn't mention creating a city in the middle of nowhere, i am assuming the moverpop would be somewhat evenly spread throughout the state. And it should be considered that such a number of high IQ people moving into the state would skyrocket the economy along with migration of people from other parts of the country. Changing the proportions once again. It's like a bank vault without a door, it's a fucking drug trip to think that simply piling up our livestock in a plain field, without fences, is going to keep them safe from the Chupacabra. 2nd: The inherent exclusion of foreign people: Also described as "me as a Brazilian guy not wanting to miss all the fun" aspect of this. Anyhow, the simple fact that the FSP is to be located in NH excludes the european, latin and asian libertarian communities. If you guys think living on what is left of the free market is horrible enough to make you move, try and consider those who don't even have that to live on. If FSP is about uniting people based on commonly shared beliefs and values, how the hell can that fundamental principle and people's lives be let aside for mere geographic convenience for the american share of the libertarian community? There are a couple other things i have to say about it, but i'll be late for my shift. I'll finish writing tonight Edit: spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jer Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 One thing I found interesting at Liberty Forum is that there were no explicit talks about Peaceful Parenting but oddly enough I think on the whole this was a positive thing. From what I've read they seem more into political solutions than principles. I also find it troubling that they kicked out Chris Cantwell and threatened to call the police on him because they didn't like his views on self defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_NH Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 From what I've read they seem more into political solutions than principles. I also find it troubling that they kicked out Chris Cantwell and threatened to call the police on him because they didn't like his views on self defense. As anarchists we certainly have a way to go when we think we can read something and immediately understands the hearts of minds of 16,000 people - collectivism is certainly runs deep in the human mind. FSP participants include people who ignore the state, people who engage the state via civil disobedience and people who fight within the state trying to change things. I am not aware of any study, survey or other metrics that would allow one two write 'authoritatively' (pun intended) on the topic to know what 'they' think. Of course it is possible that in making this claim, you are not intended to claim to know the minds of FSP participants (the people, culture and community that would actually impact your life if you moved here) and are instead making claims about FSP, Inc - the entity and small group of people that have organized, run two promotional events each year (Liberty Forum and Porcfest) and host a website. Even when narrowing the scope to this smaller group it is not clear to me that there is sufficient evidence to support the claim. Some will occasionally offer anecdotal evidence of FSP participants or FSP, Inc claims of improvements in the state that were 'won' through the political process. Fair enough - of course that is partially because these tend to be visible and tangible improvements (i.e. painting the cage walls and or making the cage a little bigger). Whenever this topic comes up I ask for examples of meaningful metrics that I could collect to demonstrate improvements (or lack of improvements) in stateless solutions or mindsets - I have yet to have anyone take me up on that request. Perhaps people think I am asking rhetorically solely in an attempt to demean the arguments of the other people in the conversation. That is certainly not my primary goal though admittedly if I am fully truthful with myself I am sure that is part of it. Finally, as for 'kicking out' people... The results of a kicking out are that individuals are not welcome at FSP events (generally the two outreach events that I previously discussed). In terms of people's day to day lives FSP, Inc makes no claims and holds no sway over the activities of FSP participants or others in the state. They are free to choose to associate or not associate with anyone for any reason. For those that believe in property rights, I also think it is fair for individuals or organizations that own space or lease space to include or exclude anyone for any reason. There are lots of reasons one might choose to associate or not associate with FSP, Inc. This decision should really have very little impact on whether or not one thinks that concentrating people in a geographical area who claim to believe in the FSP statement of intent is a good thing, a bad thing, something one wants to participate in or something one does not want to participate in. If wherever you are now you are happy with the philosophy of those around you and believe that you are making progress towards a freer world (or are not making progress but are on the precipice of a quantum leap that can't possibly be achieved incrementally) then great! Congratulations! If however you find yourself frustrated by being surrounded by people who regularly advocate the initiation of force in order to build a library, then take a look at NH. Consider whether or not you'd like to sign the statement of intent and move here or perhaps just move here. Either way for the vast majority of people in the minarchist+ to anarchist spectrum, I suspect once you get here and step away from the keyboard of doom, you'd find that life can be better than where you currently are. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jer Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 As anarchists we certainly have a way to go when we think we can read something and immediately understands the hearts of minds of 16,000 people - collectivism is certainly runs deep in the human mind. Finally, as for 'kicking out' people... The results of a kicking out are that individuals are not welcome at FSP events (generally the two outreach events that I previously discussed). In terms of people's day to day lives FSP, Inc makes no claims and holds no sway over the activities of FSP participants or others in the state. They are free to choose to associate or not associate with anyone for any reason. For those that believe in property rights, I also think it is fair for individuals or organizations that own space or lease space to include or exclude anyone for any reason. The leaders who have the authority to exclude people would be the ones I am referring to and not every person who is a member. I hope you guys take over the state and show the rest of the country how great liberty can be. Of course property owners have the right to exclude a person I just think it was dumb if Cantwell's story is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagnumPI Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yeah, guys. Maybe start with La Jolla. http://www.lajollalight.com/news/2012/jan/31/la-jolla-group-still-pushing-for-village-to/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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