WasatchMan Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 From FDR2440: Collectivism is isolation… It’s the Lonely Crowd, a book written years ago “To share a delusion is not to be close to anyone or anything.” If you join the we believe there are leprechaun society and everyone goes there dressed as a leprechaun and talks all about leprechauns they are not getting to know each other. All they are doing is reinforcing their shared delusion which means reinforcing their isolation from each other, which is bad, but reinforcing their isolation and rejection of reality which is even worse. Human beings can only meet where things are real. Human beings can only meet in reality. In shared collective delusions there is only isolation its spits you out like a cannon into the interstellar void of loneliness, which reinforces the need to reinforce the illusion, which reinforces the loneliness. Repeat, repeat, repeat, die. That is the great tragedy of people who believe. You end up isolated because you believe in things that aren’t true, which means that you get addicted to reinforcing those beliefs because that is all you think of as intimacy is going together to sing the same hymns, or the same national anthem, or the same sports song, or whatever it is, or the same song that some band is playing in a club or something like that. Getting together and all chanting nonsense with other people is what people mistake for a tribe. They mistake that for intimacy. They mistake that for connection. Connection is person to person. Not two people standing together facing a delusion, and reinforcing it in each other. That’s actually called enabling. That’s like two drunk people telling each other how great drinking is. That is not the same as getting to know someone, or being curious about them in a unpolluted, uncontaminated, undeluded state of facing each other clear, direct, in reality. Not manipulating the hand puppets of delusion and thinking that you are hugging. That is not reality, that is not intimacy, and the shared delusion approach of trying to solve the problem of loneliness like all addictions makes it worse, and makes the addiction stronger. And pulling yourself away and recognizing the fact that shared delusions continue to isolate you in the same way that that an addiction is fundamentally predicated on isolation, and all addicts end up alone if they continue. It’s really painful, but it is an essential thing to let go of the false solution so that you can actually grab onto the real solution. And that’s as terrifying to people as letting go of the only log that is keeping them floating in an ocean and striking out to where they hope the shore might be somewhere over the horizon. It is terrifying, but it is essential. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaVinci Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 This makes me think of when a friend in high school wanted me to come to church with him. When I asked "Why? What's the point?" He said, "Because there is a great loving community there". I was hesitant to go, but I found that idea appealing and so I went. While standing outside the church I found myself hoping somehwere deep in the back of my mind that there was a kernel of truth in his promise and that I would be greeted like a long lost friend. At the same time I can't say I was shocked when people started showing up and I passively watched as everyone walked past me into the church. Not a single person acknowledged my existence. They all just sort of shuffled in through the doors of the church like merchandise riding a conveyor belt. I could have been a marble statue standing beside that door and gotten the same cold reception. I didn't see the promised community and I certainly didn't feel loved. In fact, I felt the opposite. That familiar sting of rejection. I didn't go back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalmia Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I was born to church-going parents. I continued to go into adulthood hoping for connection and community that I never found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FattyWatt Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Is there a question/statement posed for this initial-post? I agree with the quote. I'm just wondering why this thread was started? Does WasatchMan want us to tell our knowlege/experience, in relation to this quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBakerII Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 As someone escaping the "loving community of church" I can state the experiences vary depending on the church. Some of the churches I have been to in my life had many people greeting you as you entered and talking with you after, some even had people go to your house if you were an admitted first time attendee. I do believe this is all a trap of sorts... well the bait at least. to keep you in the cycle of going to re affirm your delusions. The question I have is can a Community of Shared delusions exist? yes the delusion is not there in reality, but the people and the relationships that can and do develop are there and isn't that the definition of a community? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labmath2 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I think its about fdr2927 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Amen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WasatchMan Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Is there a question/statement posed for this initial-post? I agree with the quote. I'm just wondering why this thread was started? Does WasatchMan want us to tell our knowlege/experience, in relation to this quote? The statement is the title ("Religion is not a community, it is a shared delusion enabling isolation"), and the text was meant to be the background to the statement. I intended for the thread to be more of an open dialogue around the idea of Religion being a value as a community. Since this (in particular Christianity being of value as a community) was discussed in FDR2927, I am interested in digging deeper into the idea to see if it should be thrown out as an actual consideration. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WasatchMan Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 As someone escaping the "loving community of church" I can state the experiences vary depending on the church. Some of the churches I have been to in my life had many people greeting you as you entered and talking with you after, some even had people go to your house if you were an admitted first time attendee. I do believe this is all a trap of sorts... well the bait at least. to keep you in the cycle of going to re affirm your delusions. The question I have is can a Community of Shared delusions exist? yes the delusion is not there in reality, but the people and the relationships that can and do develop are there and isn't that the definition of a community? I think the point of the quote would be that you cannot connect with people over a shared delusion and therefore you cannot have a community around a delusion. That is not to say religious people cannot have a connection with other people. It means they cannot have a connection to other people based on a delusion, and therefore any connection they have is over things not to do with religion. I think religion gets a lot of of credit for the good left in people, and it is important not to assign value or virtue to evil ideologies based on good things people who claim to follow the ideology do. I would claim the good comes in-spite of the error, not as some accidental consequence of it, and therefore I do not see how a good community could be the accidental consequence of a shared delusion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powder Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I think the point of the quote would be that you cannot connect with people over a shared delusion and therefore you cannot have a community around a delusion. That is not to say religious people cannot have a connection with other people. It means they cannot have a connection to other people based on a delusion, and therefore any connection they have is over things not to do with religion. I think religion gets a lot of of credit for the good left in people, and it is important not to assign value or virtue to evil ideologies based on good things people who claim to follow the ideology do. I would claim the good comes in-spite of the error, not as some accidental consequence of it, and therefore I do not see how a good community could be the accidental consequence of a shared delusion. I have friends that are Christians, and it is true that they are simply good people and would be with or without the religion. But the gathering place for them to get together is centered around church activities outside of church services - they call these social interactions 'fellowship' and it sure does make it easier to have a 'community' where relationships and friendships can develop. That is a good thing and like Stef said, where else are you going to get that? Not too many anarchist 'communities'. My nephew is living alone in Toronto on disability $ from the government - he is badly messed up from a traumatic childhood. I think the best option for him might be to join some sort of church community where he can have social interaction with people that will look out for him. There isn't much in society that can do that for him outside of churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I think what constitutes a community means different things to different people. Deep down church-goers know that they are avoiding real connection because (A) they believe in something without evidence or consistency and (B) there is an unspoken threat of attack should you express doubt in the religious doctrine. But you have to admit that church-goers are often very active people and will band together to support one of their own who is suffering and even help people outside the church. It's interesting to me that in podcast 2927 Stef mentioned that Christians are some of the nicest people out there. However, nicety can be a form of passive aggression, which I think dovetails with the quote posted here. If you think you can "out-community" religion, more power to you! I've not seen anything close to that kind of togetherness (even if you grant that it's fake or forced) among atheists. For more on the topic I made a video response to that particular call-in show: http://unraise.com/2015/03/16/pim005-an-atheist-weighs-in-on-religion/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannahbanana Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 My mom has said more than once that she doesn't care so much about WHAT religion her kids believe in, but that she thinks the community of a religion is good for a family. Maybe for her, it felt like that. She has/has had a lot of friends that she met through church...but that doesn't mean it's the same for me. I went to Youth Group as a teen a couple times, then stopped because I felt excluded by all the other kids; they all went to the same school together, and were friends there already. Youth Group was basically just a continuation of that. I did not feel like they gave a shit as to whether I went over to their group and talked to them. My brother, before he stopped believing in Christianity, went to NCYC (National Youth Convention) and got beaten up by a few kids there. He went to his chaperone, and they told him to "forgive and forget." He stopped going to church after that. It's bad experiences like that that really reveal the truth about these communities. It might seem like sunshine and rainbows at first glance, but when you realize that there is really nothing binding you together other than faith in a thing that doesn't exist, it all seems sort of empty. Like you're all clinging to denial together. It feels really important, because to stop denying would turn your life upside down. That's why people feel like it's so different from other communities (like book club, band, sports, acting....why can't those be just as good for a family?). That's my opinion on it, at least. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaVinci Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I went to Youth Group as a teen a couple times, then stopped because I felt excluded by all the other kids; they all went to the same school together, and were friends there already. Youth Group was basically just a continuation of that. I did not feel like they gave a shit as to whether I went over to their group and talked to them. I'm sorry that happened to you. I had a similar experience. You go to these places where you are told you will be accepted for being you, but then you see the clique groups and you realize it was all a lie. That's why people feel like it's so different from other communities (like book club, band, sports, acting....why can't those be just as good for a family?). Book club doesn't usually reinforce the notion that people should bow to authority in an unquestioning manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBakerII Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 My nephew is living alone in Toronto on disability $ from the government - he is badly messed up from a traumatic childhood. I think the best option for him might be to join some sort of church community where he can have social interaction with people that will look out for him. There isn't much in society that can do that for him outside of churches. I am sorry for your Nephews situation, does he not have any family he can move near/in with? if he had a poor childhood I would assume the parent's aren't a good option, but you or someone else that could help him? also why would we continue to suggest to use the church for community when We have the opportunity to create our own communities? we do not need a church building or specific meeting place, we need to gather together in the locations we are at. I would love to have a philosophy group that would meet and discuss personal and social issues in my area. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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