Marriage vs. MGTOW/Stefan fucked up this video/Does not know what MGTOW is

[Rob_W]

Let me start off by Thanking Stefan for the books, that he has written. They have helped me a great deal.

I am NOT trying to be cruel or mean. I am just telling the truth as I know it.

So please forgive me if my wording or grammar are a little off.

 

Stefan, Please Read. It will be short. I do not think you/Stefan knows what a MGTOW is.
There's a lot of MGTOW that are married with kids. I hope you/Stefan did not pick MGTOW as a topic just because it is a large group of people/men. To learn more about MGTOW, I would start with Spetsnaz https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbbeOA5K7Hhc3I2vWG1jZ0w and work my way out from their.

I think MGTOW like Sandman and Barbarossa are Interesting, But not in the same frame of mind as MGTOW like Spetsnaz.

What is being talked about here is Post-traumatic Stress Disorder, suicide 4to1 vs woman, social exclusion, woman using the state to destroy men, western civilization clasping because woman have used the state so much to kick the shit out of man,

They are with drawing from woman by the 100s of millions, etc, etc, etc.

 

This a civil rights issue.

This is very, very real.

And this is horrifying.

Just look up the statistics.

2/3 of all Japanese men have withdrawn from woman/the state.

I do not have all the statistics for all the countries of western civilization. But if you look them up I think that you will be shocked.

 

I live in the U.S.A, White Males are the only race and sex that have laws written to sexually and racially discriminate against them.

 

The small group of good woman vs large group of good men would destroy millions of men if they took your/Stefan's advice to get married and have kids.

 

Stated differently, there are not enough woman that will not destroy men using the state.

 

Therefore millions off men are left out in the cold and are damaged from woman using the state. suffering from Post-traumatic Stress Disorder, Social Exclusion, Poverty aka Homeless.

 

What should they do?

If men are married or single, why not Men/Man Going Their Own Way?

Being seen as a human, a man and not a utility or a thing.

 

This is a very large subject. please take a deeper closer look before going out half cocked.

Please talk to good representatives of the MGTOW community before Judging them.

 

Of what I know about the Freedomain community. I am sure Stefan and the community will take a closer look.

 

Thank you.

[Rob_W]

-2 reply to this topic. But nothing to say.

 

What do you disagree with ?

[alwazqestion]

You seem to be using a different definition for MGTOW than every source I have ever seen on the topic. How do you define MGTOW? Right now, I can only intuit what you mean and it doesn't match with the mainstream understanding. Specifically, I'm confused about how a married man can be MGTOW, aside from being separated and trying to avoid the penis meat grinder that is divorce court.

 

By the way ... I did not down vote you, but your topic title is one of the most aggressive and inflammatory that I've seen in this forum. Pretty sure that's where the -2 came from.

[PatrickC]

I think some of the reasons you may have been downvoted was because of the title of this thread and when you said:

 

"I do not think you/Stefan knows what a MGTOW is."

 

This would be flat out wrong of course. Stefan has listened to Sandman and others. I believe he may have even met Sandman once (but I'm not sure). I know that he has taken the time to listen to the MGTOW community quite a bit and has been quite sympathetic towards them.

 

I personally enjoy Spetsnaz a lot. Probably the only MGTOW tuber I listen to regularly. It's true that he comes from a PTSD background which makes him the most interesting of all the exponents. Which is all the more reason for men to take the therapeutic option and try and figure out what they were doing engaging with the wrong women in the first place.

 

I get this sense from some MGTOW. Mostly from under 40's that they feel a certain helplessness. That they are completely unable to discern between a good woman and a bad one. This reminds me of the women that complain their husband became a brutal thug once they got married. That they simply had no idea he was capable of being so and were helpless in his supposed sudden change in behaviour.

 

That said, I get that men need to be more cautious these days. But throwing out the baby with the bath water when you haven't attempted to at least explore the possible psychological reasons for your poor choices in women would be a presumption too far. If you want to take that route then no problem. Just be honest about your reasons for not wanting to explore those areas (as Stefan suggests). I'd be much more willing to accept the choices of those kinds of MGTOW and mostly because they won't be inflicting their own issues or that of the mothers onto a future generation of children either.

[J. D. Stembal]

I gave you plus one for having the balls to bring up the topic.

 

 

Stated differently, there are not enough woman that will not destroy men using the state.

 

You make great points about the thanklessness of being born male, but I think this is the key (or close to it).

 

We will not have a free society until women deem it so. According to Briffault's Law, the female of the species determines the conditions of the family, and when she derives no more benefit from the male, no more association takes place. Women have always controlled the family structure, and through it, the structure of society.

 

We will always have to provide some benefit for a woman to decide to reproduce with us. If we manage to attract most men to philosophy, women will start to see reproducing with the philosophically-minded male as a benefit, perhaps because the alternative is so unattractive. Without welfare and divorce lawyers to fall back on, many women will change up their reproductive tactics out of necessity.

 

Until such a time that the state isn't looking to emasculate men financially, we must make it as hard as possible on women to take advantage of men. Stay far away from legal marriage, and always have a contractual agreement for child rearing. Men are fertile much longer than women. We can afford to wait until retirement to raise children. My sister was born, for example, when my father was 58. Keep your sex organs and the rest of your body healthy, and you should be fertile until your 70s! In the mean time, more and more women will face the prospect of childlessness, which also starves the Leviathan of future taxpayers, thus weakening the yoke of the state.

[jpahmad]

And what if you want to have a kid?  

[MMX2010]

And what if you want to have a kid?  

 

Best case scenario? 

 

(In my opinion, thus not-an-argument.)  Find a much younger woman, when you reach approximately 35-40, and have a child with her.  Don't give your current generation of women the satisfaction of marriage.  (They're always hoping that someone their own age will marry them, which led to the astute observation, "Modern American women are constantly trying to give as little of their fertility and beauty as possible to their future husbands.") 

[Matt D]

I second Patrick's remarks. You could call me a MGTOW with regard to 99% of women. I would rather say I have very high standards. Will I be disappointed if I never get married or have kids? Perhaps, but not as disappointed as I'd be if I married the wrong woman.

[Heam]

I'm pretty well-versed in all things mgtow, but have always been extremely hesitant to agree with the lifestyle. I started listening to mgtow content perhaps in 2012 and found it extremely helpful in terms of framing male-female relationships.

 

Speaking from personal experience, I've seen pretty much all of the men in my family consumed by parasitical women. That said, the men in my family were marrying women primarily based on looks, so they used women for their fertility and got used for their role as a capital-generating utility by women in return.

 

 

I still think Stefan has a point about the inevitable loneliness that mgtow men will likely suffer through in their later years. I was thinking about this today: when I'm old, do I want to be by myself or with my adult children, grandchildren, and wife? Probably the only way around the scenario of loneliness for mgtow men is if some sort of mgtow colony forms somewhere. Who knows.

[PGP]

I think Spetsnaz made one very important point (among his amazing content) and that is that MGTOW is a process that is to be gone through, it is not a destination. Part of my process is seeing that I had no business expecting an objectively quality woman in the past (in the self-knowledge sense) because I was and continue to be of low quality(though heading in the right direction now). Just a fact.

The so-called red-pill in terms of "female nature" is but a part of an all-encompassing illusion of enslavement and I think the progression to anarchy will be precipitated by MGTOW. Why should we be ruled by anyone?

Thanks feminism!!! 

[King David]

Listening to Stefan talk about dating is like listening to Kernel Sanders talk about a New York fashion show.  Marriage is not an option, women need to relearn how to make a mans life better with them in it.  Who is to say that you will not be lonely when you are married? Most women are not good companions, get a dog.  Women everywhere these days think nothing of bossing a man, this is simply not acceptable I will not even stay in the place if some female thinks she can command me, I simply withdraw as there are no viable options available to confront this mentality.  

[MagnumPI]

So, now Stef is jumping the shark. First he does this <cough MGTOW cough> jab, and now he's playing victim about everyone being risk averse? As he touts getting married to minimize risk in life(live longer, better health, etc, etc.)... I ain't even MGTOW. But come on.

[Mr. Wrong]

MGTOW definition: Men that seek to preserve their personal sovereignty (autonomy) with regard to and with an understanding of gynocentrism. No MGTOW is married.

 

MGTOW and marriage are incompatible for this reason as personal sovereignty is relinquished in marriage to women and to the state. This is due to the conflating of the relationship between marriage partners and the contractual relationship to have and raise children as one and the same. They are not. The latter is a chosen obligation while the former is a voluntary association. Yet since the law designed to enforce the contractual aspect of marriage is carried over into the voluntary relationship between both partners men find themselves essentially wage slaves if they are married. Alimony demonstrates this carry-over quite well given it's a punishment based on the contractual aspect but applying itself to the voluntary relationship. This is why Stefan views alimony rightly as what is essentially ex post facto prostitution. Furthermore it is demonstrated in no-fault divorce as 'no fault' is a perfectly justifiable reason to end a voluntary relationship but not a contractual one.

 

Until Stefan and MGTOW realize this conflation they'll be arguing at cross-purposes.

 

Furthermore, it's funny you'd mention Spetsnaz as a MGTOW of a different sort than Barbarossa when Spetsnaz would tell you that he draws inspiration and much of his knowledge of MGTOW from Barbarossa.

[RicardoMata]

MagnumPI you sound like you could have an interesting conversation with Stef about this. Care to call in ? I would love to hear what you and him have to say about Stef's "contradictions".

[MagnumPI]

I appreciate the interest, but there's not enough content for a call. I've pretty much said all I have to say about it. These are just my observations.

 

I'm rooting for him, actually. That's what's bothering me. MGTOW is winning. They provide empirical data, which even Stef has also used. The argument has to start there. Insults under the breath, and monkeys playing violins doesn't further the debate and if parenting is the most important aspect of advancing the species, you need to get people to breed first.

[KiriKaeshi]

"Stated differently, there are not enough woman that will not destroy men using the state."

 

I would say that you can't blame women for being willing to use the giant sledgehammer that is granted to them.  Sure, someone presented with the facts of the nature of the state can be held to account for using it, but the majority of women consider divorce laws etc to be an empowerment of women, not just an automatic penis squisher.  The problem here, is that the state has this penis-squashing ability at all, not that women (or any other group) are willing to utilise it, especially given the obfuscation that occurs regarding the nature of state power.  Blaming women for destroying men using the state, is akin to blaming GE for taking advantages of tax loopholes to pay no corporate income tax.  Take away that power.  Dont just condemn the poor souls who find themselves on what they think is the 'safe' end of it.  Stef talks about this issue alot when explaining why church and state were eventually separated.

[J. D. Stembal]

It is important to remember that the claim married people live longer is a description of correlation, not causation. Single people often pursue marriage because they are in poor health and want subsidized health care. My ex-girlfriend married her ex-spouse over a dental plan, for example. It stands to reason that actually pursuing a healthier lifestyle would correlate much more strongly with living longer than marrying.

 

I would be interested in knowing which studies Stefan cites to claim that married people have better health outcomes to see if the study didn't cheat the data by lumping divorcees and widowers in with the singles. Divorced men, in particular, are in a high risk group for suicide. Considering how many marriages end in divorce, and how many marriages are ended by the woman because of dissatisfaction, I anticipate that men who never marry will live much longer than men who do.

[King David]

 

"Stated differently, there are not enough woman that will not destroy men using the state."

 

I would say that you can't blame women for being willing to use the giant sledgehammer that is granted to them.  Sure, someone presented with the facts of the nature of the state can be held to account for using it, but the majority of women consider divorce laws etc to be an empowerment of women, not just an automatic penis squisher.  The problem here, is that the state has this penis-squashing ability at all, not that women (or any other group) are willing to utilise it, especially given the obfuscation that occurs regarding the nature of state power.  Blaming women for destroying men using the state, is akin to blaming GE for taking advantages of tax loopholes to pay no corporate income tax.  Take away that power.  Dont just condemn the poor souls who find themselves on what they think is the 'safe' end of it.  Stef talks about this issue alot when explaining why church and state were eventually separated.

The state is not the only problem with women today, their feminine charm muscles have become atrophy.  Women all my life have claimed they are my equal but this only occurs when I grant them equality concessions (save my uni class, I always say that the only thing a woman can do as well as a man is think).  It's akin to play fighting with a child, they think they are winning because you take it easy on them but these are not children they are adults, on some level they have to realize they are being molly coddled.  Does this slow these grown adults from perpetuating victimhood and bitch they are maltreated? nope they just keep trudging along under the pretense that everything is on perfectly even footing taking as much power as there is available.  

 

Women today have no comprehension of the rights and privilege they enjoy.   An analogy would be if the Royal family was widely indignant about their lot and being hounded by paparazzi, would I be angry with a Royal that did not recognize their privilege due to ignorance?  Not really, but I certainly wouldn't worry myself much about their well being.  Royals of course know better than to act like that because they are classy and care about self preservation...I wish with all my heart I could say the same for women.  You can just add their inability to take responsibility for their responsibility  to the long list of fails.

[Frosty]

The problem with MGTOW is that it's not precisely defined which makes deeper discussion on the issue without devolving into squabbling somewhat tricky. When I came to MGTOW some 3-4 years ago I took to observing what the community most had in common and tried to consider a general expression of these traits.

 

I think that it's fairly accurate to say that it's about maintaining male sovereignty (the ability to self govern) by minimizing your exposure to institutions and systems which are toxic to you, for example systems that significant increase your financial or legal liabilities, marriage is the typical example and is increasingly becoming agreed upon in the MGTOW community that it's simply not reasonable to be married and claim you're maintaining the ability to self govern when you've signed over a huge number of rights to the state and your partner, giving someone the ability to take you for 50% of your assets at their whim is simply not a good method of maintaining your ability to self govern.

 

Whether you agree with that or not, it's certainly true to say that MGTOW is a spectrum and people go their own way to vastly different degrees, some tried to codify this with MGTOW "levels" which is a bit cringe worthy, never the less based on how you weight your preferences you can justify going your own way to whatever degree you're happy with, some men maintain LTRs and cohabitate, these people would certainly be seen as less of a MGTOW than someone who abstains from all intimate relationships with women, and in turn these would be seen as less of a MGTOW to those who simply go galt and drop off the grid, often known as ghosting, where you're not even paying taxes etc.

 

I would say that men with a marriage and kids is not MGTOW to any meaningful degree, at this point you're on the fringe of range of behaviour expressed by MGTOWs, very few MGTOWs would agree that this is behaviour indicative of going your own way and there's a HUGE amount of discussion among the community about why that is.