Really bothered by FDR2927

[Robofox42]

When I watched FDR2927, I was very bothered.  This alone isn't an argument, I understand, but I wanted to figure out what is going on for me.  I would like to put forward some arguments that Stef doens't know what the Mormon community is like and he made bad assumptions assuming they were like benign Christan churches.

 

Stefan talks about the niceness of the community he would be leaving.  However, in Stef's podcast 476, he points out this is camoflauge.  I have been in many callings in my mormon past and when they are being nice to outsiders, 9 times out of ten, it is because of some meeting.  I have been in those meetings.  We are specifically handing out assignments to be friends and figuring out how to "build a relationship of trust."  The goal is always fellowship to bring about conversion.  I served a mission and I am very aware of the process.  There are local leaders that will act charitably for the sake of being kind, but after being in many wards on my mission and in my adult life, this is generally the exception, and not the rule.  Visinting exmormon reddit, I have found many who have expressed the same observation.  This isn't proof, but I think these samplings taken together make a strong confidence interval.  Even the caller knew the true nature of his community.  He knew they weren't kind because he knew they would reject him and cast him out if he voiced his concerns.

 

Also, Mormons don't care for philosophy or philosophical discussion.  I have even heard religious instructors (not the lay audience, but seminary and institute professionals) point out how useless philosophy is because we already have the answers.  Mormons like to talk about deep topics, but only in terms of Mormon doctrine which can get very complicated.  Early church leaders loved to pontificate on everything and trying to make sense of the mess of contradictory statements they have made hundreds (the number I have met) of members waste lots of time trying to make sense of it.  Anything that church leaders ALWAYS trumps anything else and so I have had many hundreds of these discussions with members and very rarely hear any perspective that isn't a past church leader.

 

Mormons don't use hell-fire for methods of control.  They use shaming, guilt, and social pressure.  I was taught that any sexual thoughts were evil and would lead to my eternal damnation.  Damnation means your progression is damned or stopped.  In mormonism, this means that you are separated to the third kingdom where you are separated from your family and are left to live with all the bad people.  Mormons focus on eternal families not to strengthen families but as a system of control.  You are taught that only if you obey everything and do everything the church says including paying 10% tithing, only then can you be with your family.  Otherwise you will be split up, forced to live forever in separate kingdoms.  They might be able to visit sometimes, but you won't be together forever.  This is the main evil of mormonism in my opinion, they use the family as blackmail for obedience.  It is very effective.  Obey us or you will lose your family forever.  This is child abuse.

 

I also think the caller might be lying to himself about his wife's love.  I thought my wife loved me, but the moment I pointed out I was having doubts, She immediately threatened with divorce.  I might be projecting, but I think the caller is splitting.  HIs wife is wonderful and loves him, but on the other hand, he thinks his wife would leave him for not believing.  I think after going through all I think teh best advice would be to not split up your family, but to also face the reality of how empty the love people have for you in your life really are.  This is one of the worst aspects of Mormonism.  It forcibly pushes away all reality and real connection so there is no room left.  Other Christain religions don't nearly ocupy as much of your life as mormonism does.  I think it does a huge disservice to rationality to say that the Mormon church got things right.  The reality is that Mormonism started with a horrible man who used his religious authority to force dozens of young women into his brides that were more like concubines.  He introduced a very perverted polygamy that warped the early mormon family.  It wasn't until society threatened the mormon church with extinction that the church slowly left its perverted ways.  There are still flds grouds out there with thousands of members thar are still perverted cults even worse than mainstream mormonism.  the FLDS church is much more like early mormonism.  Mormonism now just changes slowly to the pressure of societal values.  The mormon church still practiced racial segregation as late as 1978.  I think Stef's apoplogy was misplaced going toward the Mormon church.

[J-William]

I agree, could be a very interesting conversation if you call in.

 

I've experienced both sides, it's really hard to draw on personal experience to make generalizations about a group. I've had compelling philosophical discussions with atheists and religious.

And to some extent religious people in the us have been some of the strongest opponents of Marxism.

Then on the other hand Kant was interested in reconciling reason and religion, and led the way to Marxism. And a lot of Christianity isn't philosophically opposed to communism in a sense.

[Matt D]

I don't know enough about Mormonism to add anything of value. But with regards to Christianity, I don't think Stef went far enough in his apology. Without the spread of Christianity in the West it's very likely we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Some of the historical facts were surprising to me because I thought that atheists were responsible for pulling us out of the "dark ages" but that's actually not the case at all. I'd like to call into the show at some point to talk about the relationship between reason and Christianity.

[Robofox42]

Sorry for the long delay in posting, I have been extremely busy.  I think I am too much of a coward to call in.  I came to a realization that really helped me as I have thought about it over the week.  I realized that like the state, teh church doesn't exist.  I have been struggling with hating everything that has anything to do with the church, but realized that it is all just people.  There are the people I hate such as Joseph Smith and many of the church leaders.  Also, many of my local leaders growing up.  I also detest my parent's use of scriptures to justify horrendous parenting.

 

However, there are a lot of members who are just blind or can't handle the cost of seeing the truth.  These members I can see differently now because they aren't the ones that have created the doctrine.  Many of the people I know from the church are trying to be good.  It is like the state.  Not everyone who works for the state is evil.  The church trains you to see the world as black and white.  Us vs them.  I was under a false dichotomy.  This show has really helped me to be able to deal with my trauma with teh church.