Conservatives win Uk elections... The UK could leave the EU

[surfingthoughts]

The conservatives won the elections in the UK, why am I talking about this in Libertarian section or even at all as a libertarian myself you may be asking. (I didn't vote I am in Australia but even if I was in the Uk I don't think I would have voted) Well this is interesting to me as it means presuming they don't go back on their word there will be a vote to stay or leave the EU. When this referendum happens the results could indicate the people's preference to be ruled over or to be (more) free. Like I said I don't normally vote but for this referendum I think I just might as leaving the EU would be a step in the right direction, in my opinion. What are your thoughts on this?

[PatrickC]

Personally I have not much interest in politics. But I found the results from yesterdays vote to exemplify rather well how dysfunctional democratic systems really are. Even by their own standards.

 

[Better Future]

 

The system is proportional here in nz. The classical liberal guy I voted for only got 0.7% of the vote but he still got 1 seat in parliament and is in coalition with government.

 

[Tweak]

The conservatives won the elections in the UK, why am I talking about this in Libertarian section or even at all as a libertarian myself you may be asking. (I didn't vote I am in Australia but even if I was in the Uk I don't think I would have voted) Well this is interesting to me as it means presuming they don't go back on their word there will be a vote to stay or leave the EU. When this referendum happens the results could indicate the people's preference to be ruled over or to be (more) free. Like I said I don't normally vote but for this referendum I think I just might as leaving the EU would be a step in the right direction, in my opinion. What are your thoughts on this?

The only way for the UK to leave the EU will be if they put in place a "shadow EU" where the elite can continue to prosper. Every time a party in Europe gains momentum they become less and less critical of the monster EU. 

 

Most of the things will not change its more like: "Would you like me to wear a blue or red T- shirt while I spank you" thing...

[surfingthoughts]

The eu to function in the same way needs the uk they are 1 of the 2 countries (maybe 3 dunno how france is doing) that make a net positive contribution all the other countries apart from germany take money. If the uk left it would change the eu allot but i bet the uk would still end up paying money to the eu.

[PatrickC]

The eu to function in the same way needs the uk they are 1 of the 2 countries (maybe 3 dunno how france is doing) that make a net positive contribution all the other countries apart from germany take money. If the uk left it would change the eu allot but i bet the uk would still end up paying money to the eu.

 

From a purely pragmatic stance, the EU is just another tier of govt that we could do without. It's not really so much about the money as it is the legislation it imposes and mostly the effects on immigration it has. However, it seems that similar to national govts around the world, the EU is prone to taking it's legislative lead from the UN. So leaving the EU is unlikely to change things a lot in that regard.

 

However, it is likely (at least in the short term) to stem the flow of current immigration. Whereby immigrants that enter other countries in the EU who then descend on Britain (with relative ease) as their go to place for eventual settlement will have to go through the normal channels to enter the country. Of course it's highly feasible that successive British govts can just open the doors wider to non EU residents. Given current govts obsessive need to see continued GDP growth in their economies which population increases nearly always provide, it's potentially a given that they will do this, regardless of having EU membership. So it's a lot of ifs, buts and maybes of course.

 

One reason the EU remains is because it provides many ex european national MP's with some nice ready made cushy jobs for them. For which the renumeration and benefits are enormous to them.

[Thomasio]

The only ones needing the UK within the EU are the Germans, because without duty free export of German products into the UK and other European states, the industry in Germany would collapse and unemployment rates would raise drastically.

You might say, Germany has exported their unemployment and if their exports are reduced this unemployment would come back to them.

The rest of the EU has understood this by now, but most of the EU countries depend on the money Germany pays into the EU, that's why Germany rules the EU and can push its demands.

 

The UK would heavily benefit from leaving the EU, not only saving their payments to the EU, not only getting control over their borders, but also reducing their unemployment big time.

The friendship between the UK and the US will keep them their influence internationally, so no problem there either.

 

I believe even Cameron got the point by now and I'm really curious to know what the Germans will do, to influence the outcome of the upcoming referendum.

It will be loads of propaganda, that's for sure.

I believe the Germans will offer further special favors for the UK, just to keep them in the EU.

[PatrickC]

The only ones needing the UK within the EU are the Germans, because without duty free export of German products into the UK and other European states, the industry in Germany would collapse and unemployment rates would raise drastically.

You might say, Germany has exported their unemployment and if their exports are reduced this unemployment would come back to them.

 

Interesting, I'm very curious about this unemployment factor, as it's not an argument I've heard for leaving the EU before. On the contrary it's been an argument for remaining, but for different reasons than the one you're suggesting. Can you extrapolate on this duty free export for me.

[shirgall]

I think the best system is: "only the people that vote for a tax should have to pay it."

[PatrickC]

I think the best system is: "only the people that vote for a tax should have to pay it."

 

Ha ha Shirgal. Forever the jester, shining a light on masters corruption.

[Thomasio]

Interesting, I'm very curious about this unemployment factor, as it's not an argument I've heard for leaving the EU before. On the contrary it's been an argument for remaining, but for different reasons than the one you're suggesting. Can you extrapolate on this duty free export for me.

 

Fairly easy.

Within the EU there is no import duty, free trade without borders from any country to any other country.

 

Germany can maintain its gigantic export surplus only because in Germany the relation between productivity and wages is better than in any other country of the EU, meaning without import duty German products are cheaper than local products in all other EU countries, meaning people in other countries prefer German products over local products.

This way the Germans have the jobs to produce what people in other countries consume, or in other words, the Germans are exporting their unemployment.

 

Obviously this only works until the countries Germany exports to are bankrupt, because the permanent trade deficit in other European countries without an own currency to devalue can only be paid by ever increasing debt, which is what we see in Greece, Spain, Italy, etc., meaning Germany is largely responsible for the poverty in southern Europe.

 

Even though the UK have their own currency, if they would leave the EU, they could charge import duty on German products, so people would buy less German products, jobs would return to the UK and unemployment would return to Germany.

 

Take a wild guess, why Germans as well as Americans are so keen on TTIP?

After they have ruined Europe, Germany is now seeking a new victim and while the US pays exclusively with debt, they are the next target, where the US even volunteer, because they got used to importing whatever they need and pay with debt.

The only problem the Germans have missed is, the US have an own currency to devalue, which makes the German export surplus a plain gift while exporting to non EU countries.

The only problem the Americans have missed is, the German unemployment will still be exported to the US.

[surfingthoughts]

Sorry for not replying there has been some interesting points that I have thumbed up thanks guys.

[EuanM]

Here's some material for anyone who's interested in the EU issue. 

 

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85040

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfEo_TNllk4

 

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85550

[iBlagg]

Excellent points made here. But I'd like to add my own view.

 

 

Fairly easy.

Within the EU there is no import duty, free trade without borders from any country to any other country.

 

Germany can maintain its gigantic export surplus only because in Germany the relation between productivity and wages is better than in any other country of the EU, meaning without import duty German products are cheaper than local products in all other EU countries, meaning people in other countries prefer German products over local products.

This way the Germans have the jobs to produce what people in other countries consume, or in other words, the Germans are exporting their unemployment.

 

Obviously this only works until the countries Germany exports to are bankrupt, because the permanent trade deficit in other European countries without an own currency to devalue can only be paid by ever increasing debt, which is what we see in Greece, Spain, Italy, etc., meaning Germany is largely responsible for the poverty in southern Europe.

 

Even though the UK have their own currency, if they would leave the EU, they could charge import duty on German products, so people would buy less German products, jobs would return to the UK and unemployment would return to Germany.

 

Take a wild guess, why Germans as well as Americans are so keen on TTIP?

After they have ruined Europe, Germany is now seeking a new victim and while the US pays exclusively with debt, they are the next target, where the US even volunteer, because they got used to importing whatever they need and pay with debt.

The only problem the Germans have missed is, the US have an own currency to devalue, which makes the German export surplus a plain gift while exporting to non EU countries.

The only problem the Americans have missed is, the German unemployment will still be exported to the US.

 

 

Everything here is spot on, to build on this and other posts. The UK imports more then it exports from the EU. With Spain, Italy Greece (and Ireland?) on the brink; the UK could leave with a free trade deal in place. And I think everyone would want that. Germany could continue to export unemployment. Countries on the brink wouldn't be pushed over.

 

Joblessness in the UK would fall. Wages might rise a little. Trade could stay the same.

 

So why are Germany so keen to keep the UK in the fold?

 

The EU is a level(ish) playing field. Without Brussels the UK could start shredding legislation. Making the UK a more attractive place to do business. Which means more business more competition. Better for the consumer, not so for the multi nationals.

 

Multi nationals are happy with free movement of labour, keeps wages low. They're happy with the burden of regulation chokes competition. 

 

So to answer my question, if the UK leaves we can keep the benefits of free trade with EU without the expense. Make the UK enterprise friendly in a way that might not help the FTSE100 but increase living standards on the whole. And this wouldn't look good for the other countries trapped inside the EU.

 

But they've already started to rig the referendum by excluding young people from voting and allowing common wealth citizens living in the UK to vote. Multi nationals will says it's all doom and gloom, politicians will say the same. Banks will threaten to flee to China. They'll repeat 3.5 million unemployed if we leave (this is the number of people working within businesses who mainly export to EU) until people believe it.

 

The no vote will win on pure fear and slander.