Working Parents

[Koroviev]

I'm looking for some advice on how to handle this situation. My wife and I went to school with this couple who just moved to a big (read expensive) city and just bought a big (read expensive) house that they can only afford if both of them work. It has been her dream to have a big house and this is the house they plan on living in until they retire. They also plan on having children as this has also always been part of her plan (not necessarily his plan but that's another topic). The way they are planning to make this work is hiring a nanny who will take care of their children while they work.

Anyway we're looking for some advice on how to handle this situation as a 3rd party friend. As well as any research there might be that we could give them on the effects that 2 working parents has on children. Or what effect having a nanny raise your children has, etc.

 

-Thanks TYFYC

[AMR]

This is not a situation for you to handle, they are living their lives, you can give your opinion but that is about it.  Are you living in the same city as they are? 

[Koroviev]

Thanks AMO,

 

While I agree that it is their life and there is not much we can do to change their decisions, isn't it our responsibility as their friends to help them to make the best decisions for their future? I'm looking for any research that has been done on the subject so I can present as much evidence as possible as opposed to just my opinion. Then it is up to them to decide how to act and what decisions to make.

 

To answer your other question, although we have thought about moving to the big city my wife and I decided it would be a better decision to stay in the smaller city where we can afford to live. Even though there would be many opportunities for us to make more money in the bigger city we would also likely be stuck in the same situation they have gotten themselves into, in that we would be "forced" to live beyond our means.

 

-TYFYC

[J. D. Stembal]

I'm looking for some advice on how to handle this situation. My wife and I went to school with this couple who just moved to a big (read expensive) city and just bought a big (read expensive) house that they can only afford if both of them work. It has been her dream to have a big house and this is the house they plan on living in until they retire. They also plan on having children as this has also always been part of her plan (not necessarily his plan but that's another topic). The way they are planning to make this work is hiring a nanny who will take care of their children while they work.

Anyway we're looking for some advice on how to handle this situation as a 3rd party friend. As well as any research there might be that we could give them on the effects that 2 working parents has on children. Or what effect having a nanny raise your children has, etc.

 

-Thanks TYFYC

 

This was my own parents solution.

 

Some years before I was born, my parents moved into a three-bedroom house. No, they didn't sleep in separate rooms. They had planned on having two children, but the second child was never born. When I was seven, they moved into yet a larger house with four bedrooms, and filled the closets of the other rooms with old clothes.

 

When not in school, I spent my childhood up until age nine with a middle-aged female nanny in her home. She was disinterested in me or my desires other than feeding me and forcing me to take naps in the middle of the afternoon. I played outside in the yard, watched television, or played with toys, generally by myself. I had a distinct feeling of being a burden, or an unwanted problem.

 

Instead of buying a home much too large for them, it would pay them greater dividends with their children to expand as needed, perhaps keeping one parent at home, at least on a part time basis. Someone could be hired to help out part time that actually has enthusiasm for other people's children.

 

Perhaps when your friends' future children become adults, they will appreciate that they could grow up so close instead of feeling like an unwanted step-child.

[Koroviev]

This was my own parents solution.

 

Some years before I was born, my parents moved into a three-bedroom house. No, they didn't sleep in separate rooms. They had planned on having two children, but the second child was never born. When I was seven, they moved into yet a larger house with four bedrooms, and filled the closets of the other rooms with old clothes.

 

When not in school, I spent my childhood up until age nine with a middle-aged female nanny in her home. She was disinterested in me or my desires other than feeding me and forcing me to take naps in the middle of the afternoon. I played outside in the yard, watched television, or played with toys, generally by myself. I had a distinct feeling of being a burden, or an unwanted problem.

 

Instead of buying a home much too large for them, it would pay them greater dividends with their children to expand as needed, perhaps keeping one parent at home, at least on a part time basis. Someone could be hired to help out part time that actually has enthusiasm for other people's children.

 

Perhaps when your friends' future children become adults, they will appreciate that they could grow up so close instead of feeling like an unwanted step-child.

 

Wow, thanks for sharing your story, and I'm really sorry you had to go through all of that. It's definitely something no one deserves to live through, and exactly the situation I hope to help them avoid. If you don't mind me asking, is there something in particular you think helped you overcome that trauma, and/or made you realize you didn't want to repeat their mistakes?

[Matthew Ed Moran]

Hopefully someone else has research at their hands, but appealing to their innate sense of love and justice might do some good.

 

Tell them children are incredibly perceptive and digest all information accessible to them about their environment to understand how secure they are. Tell them secure children are those who feel strongly attached, who do not have doubts about being loved, and who therefore are able to express their truest, most artistic and sophisticated thoughts and feelings without "blockage" or worry about the fact that they are vulnerable. Let them know that love is not just a saying, and that a child will not be convinced that they are loved merely by hearing the words stated to them over and over. Children want and need to exchange feelings and ideals with their parents, to exchange laughs, love, to offer their curiosity. Tell them that these interactions pave the way for the child to become open and honest, and that when they face difficulties later in life, they will come back to the parents for knowledge and perspective. Tell them the opposite of this - the opposite of a child who has the security to be honest and open - is a child who is timid, anxious, and prone to emotional repression and rebellion. If the child is with caregivers who are not the parents, they will not develop the trust to be open and honest with their parents, because they will perceive, quite astutely, that the parents do not see the value in their honesty and openness, and would rather substitute a stranger to look over them to actually avoid these honest exchanges of emotions and ideas.

 

Tell them this will lead to great suffering for the child, who wants desperately to have the security to be honest. Tell them the child, once grown, will act on the momentum of the past and internalize the notion that they must go elsewhere for their connection, and this will lead to peer-bonding and dysfunctional relationships, and the parent will be able to do little to influence otherwise, because they presented for years that they were not the people to go to for wisdom and honesty when they substituted a nanny for themselves in their child's most critical years.

 

Okay, those are just some ideas that I wrote free-flow. I hope they are at least mildly useful. I think provoking their conscience, their sense of morality and empathy might be effective, though. If you can make them feel guilty at the idea of leaving their child with a nanny for hours upon hours, maybe this will increase the costs for them, and even if they are selfish, it at least might point out the difficulties they will face if they do not bond with their children and thus appeal to their self interest in a productive way.

[Merrifield]

Steph has done the research and the shows. I can't remember the numbers but I'm sure you could find them. Maybe turn them on to those podcasts or videos. YouTube videos can be downloaded using free MP4 converters available online. Turn them on to FDR in general.

[Koroviev]

Hopefully someone else has research at their hands, but appealing to their innate sense of love and justice might do some good.

 

Tell them children are incredibly perceptive and digest all information accessible to them about their environment to understand how secure they are. Tell them secure children are those who feel strongly attached, who do not have doubts about being loved, and who therefore are able to express their truest, most artistic and sophisticated thoughts and feelings without "blockage" or worry about the fact that they are vulnerable. Let them know that love is not just a saying, and that a child will not be convinced that they are loved merely by hearing the words stated to them over and over. Children want and need to exchange feelings and ideals with their parents, to exchange laughs, love, to offer their curiosity. Tell them that these interactions pave the way for the child to become open and honest, and that when they face difficulties later in life, they will come back to the parents for knowledge and perspective. Tell them the opposite of this - the opposite of a child who has the security to be honest and open - is a child who is timid, anxious, and prone to emotional repression and rebellion. If the child is with caregivers who are not the parents, they will not develop the trust to be open and honest with their parents, because they will perceive, quite astutely, that the parents do not see the value in their honesty and openness, and would rather substitute a stranger to look over them to actually avoid these honest exchanges of emotions and ideas.

 

Tell them this will lead to great suffering for the child, who wants desperately to have the security to be honest. Tell them the child, once grown, will act on the momentum of the past and internalize the notion that they must go elsewhere for their connection, and this will lead to peer-bonding and dysfunctional relationships, and the parent will be able to do little to influence otherwise, because they presented for years that they were not the people to go to for wisdom and honesty when they substituted a nanny for themselves in their child's most critical years.

 

Okay, those are just some ideas that I wrote free-flow. I hope they are at least mildly useful. I think provoking their conscience, their sense of morality and empathy might be effective, though. If you can make them feel guilty at the idea of leaving their child with a nanny for hours upon hours, maybe this will increase the costs for them, and even if they are selfish, it at least might point out the difficulties they will face if they do not bond with their children and thus appeal to their self interest in a productive way.

Matthew M. this is beautiful, thank you. It's definitely a huge help!

 

 

Steph has done the research and the shows. I can't remember the numbers but I'm sure you could find them. Maybe turn them on to those podcasts or videos. YouTube videos can be downloaded using free MP4 converters available online. Turn them on to FDR in general.

Thanks Merrifield, I'm working on getting them interested in FDR. Unfortunately he seems to be very afraid of change, even though he's a finance major (sorry couldn't hold back the bad pun) or anything that seems to go against the crowd. He listens to NPR almost religiously and the couple times I've mentioned FDR or any other show that questions what is accepted I get this look of terror. 

 

She on the other hand seems to be a little more open minded, however it seems like sticking to her life plan (graduate, work, big house, work, baby, work some more) is at the top of her priority list. It feels like a hopeless cause, but my wife and I have agreed that we'd give it our best shot for the eventual baby's sake. We're working on turning them on to RTR and the Peaceful Parenting series, but just being very careful about how we go about it.

 

Again you guys have been a huge help and any other advise or research is much appreciated!!

 

-TYFYC 

[hannahbanana]

Stef did an interesting rebuttal of an article that criticizes stay-at-home parenting:

In which he gives some statistics about the benefits. I found it a compelling listen, and hopefully it has something that may be helpful to you

[J. D. Stembal]

Wow, thanks for sharing your story, and I'm really sorry you had to go through all of that. It's definitely something no one deserves to live through, and exactly the situation I hope to help them avoid. If you don't mind me asking, is there something in particular you think helped you overcome that trauma, and/or made you realize you didn't want to repeat their mistakes?

 

Thank you for asking. I had to think about it for several days.

 

I don't think I have overcome the trauma, and I often have frequent doubts about my ability to overcome it. Self-knowledge tells me that I was close (once or twice) to settling down with a decent woman and making babies, and I called off the relationship. It did not feel right to me. I also know that there were several women who had designs on snaring me with a fallopian tube. Those, in retrospect, did not feel right either and there were many good reasons to believe this. But suppose no woman will ever feel right to me because of this trauma?

 

As of now, the only surefire method I have to not repeat the mistakes of my parents is to not have children. It's not an ideal resolution, I realize (the inevitable result is likely dying alone), but until I burrow deeper into myself, I cannot, in good conscience, knock a woman up. Since my father is working on his second family, I am off the hook, so to speak, for furthering the family DNA, not that this is a responsibility that I think I owe to my parents. They will never be allowed to meet my hypothetical children.

[MMX2010]

Do you think the man is strong enough to stand up against his wife in this situation? 

 

When you said, "They also plan on having children as this has also always been part of her plan (not necessarily his plan but that's another topic).", I got the impression that she's calling the shots, and he's just going along with what she wants.  (In other words, the most common male/female marriage dynamic.) 

 

So you're basically A Guy She Isn't Sleeping With trying to directly tell her that she's not allowed to have what she wants.  Matthew M's argument is good, so it "should" work on a logical, rational person - but I don't think it'll work on another man's wife.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't tell her what you feel, but I wouldn't go all-in with an attitude of utmost certainty. 

 

At best, you slowly (meaning multiple conversations over a series of weeks) convince the man to stand up to her - but you didn't give me the impression that he's able or willing to stand up to his wife over this issue. 

[MMX2010]

I didn't communicate clearly enough in my previous post.  (1) I am *NOT* encouraging you to just walk away from this interaction, (even though I, personally would do so).  (2) I *AM* warning you that you're unlikely to succeed so that you won't either blame the entire female gender for the actions of this woman or blame yourself for your inability to convince her to follow your advice. 

 

It's tough to be emotionally detached from this situation, especially when children are involved.  But you must be emotionally detached, because you have very little influence over what she (or any woman who isn't your wife) does. 

[Koroviev]

Stef did an interesting rebuttal of an article that criticizes stay-at-home parenting:

In which he gives some statistics about the benefits. I found it a compelling listen, and hopefully it has something that may be helpful to you

 

Thanks hannabanna, I'd completely forgotten about this show, but it's exactly in line with what I'm looking for. Has anyone done research into attachment theory? I think this may be a good course to take with them. I'm going to look more into it but if anyone has knowledge on the subject or a good jumping off point it'd be much appreciated.

 

 

Thank you for asking. I had to think about it for several days.

 

I don't think I have overcome the trauma, and I often have frequent doubts about my ability to overcome it. Self-knowledge tells me that I was close (once or twice) to settling down with a decent woman and making babies, and I called off the relationship. It did not feel right to me. I also know that there were several women who had designs on snaring me with a fallopian tube. Those, in retrospect, did not feel right either and there were many good reasons to believe this. But suppose no woman will ever feel right to me because of this trauma?

 

As of now, the only surefire method I have to not repeat the mistakes of my parents is to not have children. It's not an ideal resolution, I realize (the inevitable result is likely dying alone), but until I burrow deeper into myself, I cannot, in good conscience, knock a woman up. Since my father is working on his second family, I am off the hook, so to speak, for furthering the family DNA, not that this is a responsibility that I think I owe to my parents. They will never be allowed to meet my hypothetical children.

 

I find your story very interesting, and extremely heart wrenching, no one should be subjected to that. Especially since it seems likely that such a small lifestyle change, or really change in thought process, may have changed your entire life. I'm curious though, and please do not answer if you don't want to, if I'm understanding correctly it sounds like there were some women in your life who you were thinking about settling down with and were not trying to trap you with their fallopian tubes, "Penis Fly Traps" as my wife likes to call them, yet you still called it off. Was this after conversations with them about what you were feeling? If not do you think having that conversation may have changed the outcome? Also, do you think if you had a support group who were comfortable enough to keep you in check, I guess that's the best way of putting it, the outcome may have been different? By "Keep you in check" what I mean is friends or family you could talk to about what you were going through who would be able to rationally tell you, with evidence, whether or not you're making a good decision.

 

 

 

Do you think the man is strong enough to stand up against his wife in this situation? 

 

When you said, "They also plan on having children as this has also always been part of her plan (not necessarily his plan but that's another topic).", I got the impression that she's calling the shots, and he's just going along with what she wants.  (In other words, the most common male/female marriage dynamic.) 

 

So you're basically A Guy She Isn't Sleeping With trying to directly tell her that she's not allowed to have what she wants.  Matthew M's argument is good, so it "should" work on a logical, rational person - but I don't think it'll work on another man's wife.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't tell her what you feel, but I wouldn't go all-in with an attitude of utmost certainty. 

 

At best, you slowly (meaning multiple conversations over a series of weeks) convince the man to stand up to her - but you didn't give me the impression that he's able or willing to stand up to his wife over this issue. 

 

 

I didn't communicate clearly enough in my previous post.  (1) I am *NOT* encouraging you to just walk away from this interaction, (even though I, personally would do so).  (2) I *AM* warning you that you're unlikely to succeed so that you won't either blame the entire female gender for the actions of this woman or blame yourself for your inability to convince her to follow your advice. 

 

It's tough to be emotionally detached from this situation, especially when children are involved.  But you must be emotionally detached, because you have very little influence over what she (or any woman who isn't your wife) does. 

 

MMX2010 Thanks for the input. First off no I don't think the guy would "stand up" to her. From what I understand he never really wanted kids and kind of got sucked into it because she really does want kids. So yes he's just following along with whatever she wants to do (Happy wife, happy life right?). I think it's more we're trying to help people we care about make the best decisions for themselves and their future offspring, not necessarily directly telling them what they can or cannot do. I agree that approach would get nowhere. I also, definitely agree that it probably won't get anywhere anyway but I still think I would regret not giving it my best effort. I feel like a lot of the issues these days stem from too many people just "walking away" and not helping each other make better decisions in their lives (please understand I mean absolutely no offence by this). Thanks for the clarification!!

 

That sort of leads to what I think may be an underlying topic, and maybe another thread, but as a friend it seems to me like it's your responsibility to help each other when you "go astray." Think skinny jeans or bad haircuts in the short term, but also relationships and life decisions (i.e. the situation I'm in) in the long run. How much is it really your "responsibility" to help those close to you? Is it better to potentially offend or hurt someone's feelings to try to keep them from making a potentially dumb choice or to keep your opinions to yourself and let them make their own choices? Do you think having a support group of friends could alleviate some of the issues we have due to our parents' poor choices? How much advise is too much? What if you, the advise giver, are wrong? Or am I completely off base?

 

Also, just to clarify, this is in no way me trying to get in the way of some other guy and his wife. I am happily married myself, and wouldn't trade her for the world. This is my wife's really close friend, they were each other's maids of honor, so I've become close with them as a couple over the past few years. I'm simply helping my wife find ways to help her friend make good decisions and I offered to post here on her behalf to get some more input.

[J. D. Stembal]

Also, just to clarify, this is in no way me trying to get in the way of some other guy and his wife. I am happily married myself, and wouldn't trade her for the world. This is my wife's really close friend, they were each other's maids of honor, so I've become close with them as a couple over the past few years. I'm simply helping my wife find ways to help her friend make good decisions and I offered to post here on her behalf to get some more input.

 

You are always welcome!

 

I will respond via private message regarding my dirty laundry. I don't want to derail this thread as it seems like you might be playing with fire. A woman's loyalty is not to her man, but to her eggs. Women also protect the eggs of other women. What happens to your marriage if you do or say something that leads the husband to stand up and say, "No, I don't want kids, baby."

 

 

 

First off no I don't think the guy would "stand up" to her. From what I understand he never really wanted kids and kind of got sucked into it because she really does want kids. So yes he's just following along with whatever she wants to do (Happy wife, happy life right?).

 

It is very obvious that this couple is deliberately avoiding self-knowledge. Why else would they get married when one of the two does not want children?

[MMX2010]

 

MMX2010 Thanks for the input. First off no I don't think the guy would "stand up" to her. From what I understand he never really wanted kids and kind of got sucked into it because she really does want kids. So yes he's just following along with whatever she wants to do (Happy wife, happy life right?). I think it's more we're trying to help people we care about make the best decisions for themselves and their future offspring, not necessarily directly telling them what they can or cannot do. I agree that approach would get nowhere. I also, definitely agree that it probably won't get anywhere anyway but I still think I would regret not giving it my best effort. I feel like a lot of the issues these days stem from too many people just "walking away" and not helping each other make better decisions in their lives (please understand I mean absolutely no offence by this). Thanks for the clarification!!

 

It's not your fault, dude.  She's a morally free women with her own moral agency making a choice.  I mentioned in another thread that women have very simple classification systems for men, and two of those categories are Man That I'm Sleeping With versus Man That I'm NOT Sleeping With.  And no woman makes major life-altering decisions - particularly decisions about children - by following the advice of a Man She Isn't Sleeping With. 

 

 

 

 That sort of leads to what I think may be an underlying topic, and maybe another thread, but as a friend it seems to me like it's your responsibility to help each other when you "go astray." Think skinny jeans or bad haircuts in the short term, but also relationships and life decisions (i.e. the situation I'm in) in the long run. How much is it really your "responsibility" to help those close to you? Is it better to potentially offend or hurt someone's feelings to try to keep them from making a potentially dumb choice or to keep your opinions to yourself and let them make their own choices? Do you think having a support group of friends could alleviate some of the issues we have due to our parents' poor choices? How much advise is too much? What if you, the advise giver, are wrong? Or am I completely off base?

 

Also, just to clarify, this is in no way me trying to get in the way of some other guy and his wife. I am happily married myself, and wouldn't trade her for the world. This is my wife's really close friend, they were each other's maids of honor, so I've become close with them as a couple over the past few years. I'm simply helping my wife find ways to help her friend make good decisions and I offered to post here on her behalf to get some more input.

 

 

You're off-base only in your expectations.  You see her as a friend; she sees you as a Man She Isn't Sleeping With. 

 

You expect your friendship to have strong influence over her.  I'm telling you that you have close-to-zero influence. 

 

So, if you're entering this conversation expecting her to follow your advice, don't say anything because you'll beat yourself up when she doesn't follow your advice.  But if you're entering this conversation not caring about whether she follows your advice, then speak up and let her make up her own mind. 

 

Expect, also, your wife to find out about this.  Then decide whether your wife is strong enough to handle the most vicious personal attacks that The Woman You're Trying To Influence could launch against you. 

 

------------------------

 

Have you thought about convincing Your Wife of your argument, and then advising Your Wife to talk to her friend? 

[Koroviev]

 

It's not your fault, dude.  She's a morally free women with her own moral agency making a choice.  I mentioned in another thread that women have very simple classification systems for men, and two of those categories are Man That I'm Sleeping With versus Man That I'm NOT Sleeping With.  And no woman makes major life-altering decisions - particularly decisions about children - by following the advice of a Man She Isn't Sleeping With. 

 

 

 

 

 

You're off-base only in your expectations.  You see her as a friend; she sees you as a Man She Isn't Sleeping With. 

 

You expect your friendship to have strong influence over her.  I'm telling you that you have close-to-zero influence. 

 

So, if you're entering this conversation expecting her to follow your advice, don't say anything because you'll beat yourself up when she doesn't follow your advice.  But if you're entering this conversation not caring about whether she follows your advice, then speak up and let her make up her own mind. 

 

Expect, also, your wife to find out about this.  Then decide whether your wife is strong enough to handle the most vicious personal attacks that The Woman You're Trying To Influence could launch against you. 

 

------------------------

 

Have you thought about convincing Your Wife of your argument, and then advising Your Wife to talk to her friend? 

 

Ah, sorry, and I probably didn't make this clear enough, but my wife and I are collaborating on this, and have been the entire time. Whatever choice they make will have no effect on me since our friends will be the ones who have to live with those decisions (in this case for the rest of their lives). My wife understands and agrees with my argument, that households with two working parents are damaging for children, and damaging to your relationship with your children. Which stems from our shared opinion of "why even have children if you aren't going to be around to raise them." We both understand that 1. this is a very sensitive topic and could potentially strain or end our relationship with this other couple if we overstep our bounds, and 2. to avoid that it's best to avoid being confrontational about it so we are hoping to discreetly sway their opinion by presenting the best evidence we have as indirectly as possible. 

 

My personal opinion, as "Man she isn't sleeping with" not only has close to zero influence over what they think or do, it probably as a negative influence on what they think or do. Meaning they would most likely do the opposite of whatever I personally suggested. My wife on the other hand has some influence, since they are close friends, which is why the original goal was get more evidence on the effect of households with 2 working parents for my wife to suggest her friend looking into since this other couple seems relatively rational and want to at least appear to be doing what is best for their future offspring. I (we) are still looking for more evidence both to share with this other couple, in hopes of helping them to see the potential mistake (if it even is a mistake) they are making, and for our own knowledge because there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence (aside from what Stef has presented), which means we could potentially be completely wrong.

 

The problem, and I assume it's a very common problem, is that the people we care about are lead by popular culture and current trends to believe that something which is (potentially) damaging is what is best. This is where I was trying to get in my last post, and as I said it may be a topic for a different thread, but is it our (in general not my wife and myself specifically) responsibility as moral, rational, and educated people to help to nudge those we care about in the right direction? If so, to what extent? Should we (again "we" in general) be ready to overstep the bounds of what is acceptable if it means those we care about may make better life choices? A very simplistic example would be if your friend showed up wearing skinny jeans is it your responsibility to tell him he looks ridiculous wearing them? What if he or she is marrying someone you know just wants him/her for his/her money? What if he or she is spanking his/her kid? It seems to me like a lot of problems in the world could be completely avoided if we all had people who cared about us enough to not be afraid to tell us we're making a big mistake.

[MMX2010]

Ah, sorry, and I probably didn't make this clear enough, but my wife and I are collaborating on this, and have been the entire time. Whatever choice they make will have no effect on me since our friends will be the ones who have to live with those decisions (in this case for the rest of their lives). My wife understands and agrees with my argument, that households with two working parents are damaging for children, and damaging to your relationship with your children. Which stems from our shared opinion of "why even have children if you aren't going to be around to raise them." We both understand that 1. this is a very sensitive topic and could potentially strain or end our relationship with this other couple if we overstep our bounds, and 2. to avoid that it's best to avoid being confrontational about it so we are hoping to discreetly sway their opinion by presenting the best evidence we have as indirectly as possible. 

 

 

 

Okay, cool.  *sigh of relief* 

 

I can't give specific advice, but the goal is to combine your ability to handle multiple facts at once with your wife's ability to naturally sense a woman's emotional state, so that you both deliver the best possible message to the Other Woman.  I strongly suggest that your wife delivers the message, after practicing reading the most important paragraphs in front of a mirror multiple times so that she communicates calmly, collectedly, and confidently. 

 

Best of luck.  You're doing the right thing.  Just don't become so overburdened with expectations that she'll listen that you become enraged when she doesn't. 

[J. D. Stembal]

Children are very smart and intuitively know that these are the real reasons you don't spend more time with them and I'm sick of people not acknowledging it. 

 

I have never heard a child say they prefer vacation time over playing with their parents. I have never heard a child say they prefer a "good" school over staying at home and learning with their parents. I have never heard a child say they want more toys and less time with Mom or Dad. I have never heard a child say they need their own bedroom, playroom, or huge backyard vs more time spent with their parents. What I have seen and heard time and time again are desperate cries and pleading for more time with their parents reducing the child into tears on, sometimes, a daily basis. This is tragic. Can you imagine? Your child, literally, crying out for help love and attention and still it provokes no response from you, the parent. Do you want to have no bond with your child because your "need" a bigger house? Do you want them raised by a stranger because your job "fulfills" you? Do you want to watch them cry daily missing you because you "have" to pay for vacations and gym lessons? 

 

Then I gotta ask, and you should probably ask yourself, if you think the latter is necessary "Why even have children?" 

 

This parental folly is everywhere.

 

The upstairs neighbor is a single mom. Nearly every morning, I am awakened by her daughter screaming and crying at the top of her lungs, "I want my daddy!" It breaks my heart every time I hear her cry. Maybe someday, her mother and father will get back together, but I doubt it.

 

One of my friends has two children, and buys the most unnecessary trinkets in order to prove his worth as a father. The last thing he was thinking about buying was a drone. His family also has $20,000 in credit card debt. When I asked why the debt was so high, he blamed his children by saying "Kids are expensive!"

 

I am fairly certain he buys the toys for himself and not his kids because when I asked him about his buying habits, he claimed it was because he didn't have many toys growing up. No amount of toys made me happy when I was young.

 

Why even have children? This is a very important question. I don't think many parents contemplate the gravity of it before procreating. I attempted to do this with my ex-girlfriend, and she was completely unwilling to negotiate about family at all, which doesn't surprise me since she holds the eggs. Eggs don't have to negotiate if they don't want to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

[Koroviev]

Ugh this really is heart wrenching, and I really do appreciate you guys sharing. I can't imagine what it must be like to be in a situation where you care so much about these children, which it sounds like you do, but are relatively helpless in making the situation better. Have you tried talking to the parents, or do you think that would just lead to a worse situation for you and the children? My wife's younger (much younger) sisters are in a somewhat similar situation and we just feel like our hands are tied because of how manipulative her mother is.

 

So the question is if you see your friends and/or people you care about heading down this path how much is it your responsibility, for lack of a better term, to get them to see what these choices almost always lead to, and what resources have people found to help get people to see that?

[J. D. Stembal]

Ugh this really is heart wrenching, and I really do appreciate you guys sharing. I can't imagine what it must be like to be in a situation where you care so much about these children, which it sounds like you do, but are relatively helpless in making the situation better. Have you tried talking to the parents, or do you think that would just lead to a worse situation for you and the children? My wife's younger (much younger) sisters are in a somewhat similar situation and we just feel like our hands are tied because of how manipulative her mother is.

 

So the question is if you see your friends and/or people you care about heading down this path how much is it your responsibility, for lack of a better term, to get them to see what these choices almost always lead to, and what resources have people found to help get people to see that?

 

I haven't talked to my neighbor about her daughter and family, but she knows that I am not an ally. She has likely heard Stefan's voice wafting through the bedroom window on occasion.

 

She tried being flirty and friendly with me when we first met after I moved in, but I was not receptive to her charms. Single moms don't turn me on. I'm more likely to reach one of the males that come in and our of her life like a revolving door. I'm not exactly sure if they are friends, lovers, or extended family members, but they tend to hang out and drink from time to time. It's a three-generation family, and they still put the daughter in daycare every day. Her parents will not say word one to me besides an acknowledging grunt. I don't think it's a language barrier, but it could be.

 

I've talked to my friend about possibly changing his family around. Something I said last year connected with him, and he stopped giving his son ADD meds, so there was hope. His two children are rapidly approaching puberty, and he will soon have to pay for years of public school and the extensive boarding of his children in daycare programs. When he tried to blame his family's $20,000 debt on his children, I said, "You can't lay your debt on your children. That's exactly how the government works!" He responded, "You have no idea how expensive kids are because you don't have any."

 

Yes, because playing with RC drones and going to Disneyworld is so necessary as a responsible parent!

 

My friend, who has been talking to me less and less often, is the last one remaining from my alcoholic past. The last time we talked on the phone on Monday, he made sure that the first thing he told me was how drunk he got over the holiday weekend. I made an excuse and hung up the call immediately. I'm done with speaking to him.

 

I'm convinced that you can't change people, only yourself, your actions, and with whom you choose to associate or shame.

[ebznflows]

Chances of convincing the wife to stay home: close to zero. I say this because I am the wife of a diplomat, and none of us trailing spouses financially need to work yet the vast majority work BS administrative embassy jobs and put their kids in daycare, because feeling a sense of agency and having respect as an adult with a job is more important. They think there will be no negative effect on the kids because everyone does it.

 

Anyway, better to recommend a high quality nanny such as a graduate of this school:

Http://WWW.nanny-governess.com

[J. D. Stembal]

J.D. Stembal - Good gracious your upstairs neighbor sounds like a piece of work I can imagine living below her would be hard. Her poor daughter... when you talked about you overhearing her crying missing her Father, gosh, that really broke my heart as it did yours.

 

It breaks my heart nearly every day because I must have also cried like this when I was her age. My bedroom is just below hers, so unless I wear earplugs, her cries wake me up most mornings. I can hear her pain through the ceiling, which has at least a foot of concrete flooring separating us. She cries so loudly that I can make out the words, "I want my daddy!"

 

 

By the way I wanted to say too, congratulations with your sobriety and the changes you've made in your personal relationships. I can really appreciate and sympathize with the work that must have gone in to acknowledging your problems and doing something about it. Also amazing that you got this man to take his son off of ADD meds it's not an easy thing to to talk about with anyone let alone the parent who is medicating their child his son will benefit because of your words. Very honorable.

 

Thank you so much for your words of support! No one in my personal life said these words to me, and when I tell people about how I quit drinking, they usually have a specific look on their face like they don't understand what I'm saying (a squinting of the eyes, and furrowing of the brow). I need to say these words to me. I did that just now, and it feels great.

 

I'm going to give this man full credit for discontinuing the medication of his son. It's not like I commanded him to do it. I only suggested how damaging psychoactive pharmaceuticals are to the brain. We had one or two conversations about how he was institutionalized and likely doped up on thorazine for a week when he was a teenager, and he made the move to discontinue the medication for his son himself. On the other hand, he takes Chantix because he's trying to quit smoking, which has also been correlated to suicide, so the story doesn't yet have a happy ending.

[Kurtis]

I don't know the specific episodes, but there are many that Stef brings up the same research which shows that children who are left by their parents for something like 22 hours a week demonstrate the same trauma as complete orphans. Perhaps pointing them to this research might be enough to shock them into thought.

 

As a child of a single mother who went back to full time work when I was 6 months old, I can attest to the harm caused by absent parents. Those early experiences of feeling re-abandoned 5 days a week are still something I'm working on.

 

From the description of this couple I doubt you'll have much luck in intervening. If you could get them into the peaceful parenting podcasts under the guise of "general preparing to be parents", the message that is unavoidable in them is the importance of being with your young children. However, as has been said above, you cannot help change somebody who is not open and willing to change themselves.

 

Has your wife thought about what will become of this friendship if they do not change? In my experience, the self erasure required to maintain relationships with people who live lives opposed to the core virtues you hold dearly is not worth it.

[Artist707]

Hi Koroviev,

 

First, I would like to commend you for trying to reach out to these people. I think it takes courage and goodness of character to try to help someone who you profess to be friends with.

 

I have certainly read through the entire posts that precede mine and I hope they help you.

 

What I would suggest is to sit them down and have an honest conversation with them. If you were to sit them down for maybe an hour or two and ask them about their situation, maybe that can help you get some more information to act from there. My thoughts are that your curiosity might open up their hearts to their own situations. Maybe you can ask them questions like : "Why do you want kids?", "Do you want your kids to like you?", "What are the advantages of having a big house for your child?", "Why would you rather work than we with your child?", "How many options do you see in your life?", "What is the end goal you are trying to achieve with having kids and a bigger house?". Some questions like this might help them understand themselves better. And also, I think will it help with your relationships with them too

 

I hope this suggestion helps! I'm curious to see how everything turns out. Maybe it will be good ending!

[Koroviev]

First off thanks to everyone who has shared,this has been a massive help and has reaffirmed our desire to raise our children differently.

 

Second, an update for anyone who might be interested. The couple has found out they are pregnant. With this, from what I hear, has come a massive change in the husband (as is generally the case) and he is apparently much more motivated to do what's best, reading books, etc. Our plan is to continue to chip away by sending them research and different articles whenever we come across them, knowing full well we'll probably never change their mind but hopefully we can have some impact on how he or she is raised. Any blogs/articles/podcasts/etc. you guys come across are greatly appreciated!!

 

I haven't talked to my neighbor about her daughter and family, but she knows that I am not an ally. She has likely heard Stefan's voice wafting through the bedroom window on occasion.

 

She tried being flirty and friendly with me when we first met after I moved in, but I was not receptive to her charms. Single moms don't turn me on. I'm more likely to reach one of the males that come in and our of her life like a revolving door. I'm not exactly sure if they are friends, lovers, or extended family members, but they tend to hang out and drink from time to time. It's a three-generation family, and they still put the daughter in daycare every day. Her parents will not say word one to me besides an acknowledging grunt. I don't think it's a language barrier, but it could be.

 

I've talked to my friend about possibly changing his family around. Something I said last year connected with him, and he stopped giving his son ADD meds, so there was hope. His two children are rapidly approaching puberty, and he will soon have to pay for years of public school and the extensive boarding of his children in daycare programs. When he tried to blame his family's $20,000 debt on his children, I said, "You can't lay your debt on your children. That's exactly how the government works!" He responded, "You have no idea how expensive kids are because you don't have any."

 

Yes, because playing with RC drones and going to Disneyworld is so necessary as a responsible parent!

 

My friend, who has been talking to me less and less often, is the last one remaining from my alcoholic past. The last time we talked on the phone on Monday, he made sure that the first thing he told me was how drunk he got over the holiday weekend. I made an excuse and hung up the call immediately. I'm done with speaking to him.

 

I'm convinced that you can't change people, only yourself, your actions, and with whom you choose to associate or shame.

 

I've always found it interesting how most parents don't see the irony in most of the things they say. I wonder how much your friend's buying habits stem from him feeling bad about having to work all the time (to afford the buying habits...), and/or if it's more he doesn't know of any other way to connect with his children? I also find it interesting how much people who drink, especially parents, complain about not ever having money....as they are spending it all on booze. 

 

I definitely agree @J.D. Stembal that you cannot change other people it has to come from themselves, but I keep coming back to what I feel more and more to be the underlying question which is how much is it our responsibility to help our friends change? Talking to my wife the other day I think a good strategy might be to sit them down and get all of your honest thoughts, opinions, and facts out there, like the gun in the room talk. Then kind of group them based on their reactions. Some people you'll find out can be your deep thinking friends who realize and admit their faults (for lack of a better word) and those people will be much closer than the people who are just fun to go bowling with,or others who you might realize are just "friends" because of proximity. Sticking to your principles will then weed them out further. 

 

Koroviev -  I did actually talk with the children's mother, I knew it would not change anything but I could not leave with a clean conscience if I did not call her on her crazy. Unfortunately your hands are tied in a situation like this, and because you can not get anyone to change there is little to no hope with someone who does not value reason, virtue and integrity. To echo a bit of what J.D. Stembal said you can't make anyone do anything so creating an ultimatum is pointless and illogical. The best someone can do in situations like this is go to the person. Be honest with them about your thoughts and feelings and then provide suggestions accordingly. If you have rapport with that person they should welcome this informational criticism and consider or implement your suggestions should they prove to be rational and valid. If, however, they do not value your thoughts, feelings and suggestions it will become all to clear very quickly. Put forward your standards and see how someone responds then respond accordingly.

 

I put emphasis on that last bit because it's, in my opinion the most important part to remember and something I struggled with personally for a long time. I used to think it would be best for me to stay with the kids so they would have someone in their lives that was a positive influence. There was even times I felt she could change. These thoughts however are an illusion and hypocrisy. How could I be a positive influence on the children I love so much if I let an evil and manipulative person (their mother) push me around, use me, and degrade me? How could I claim to be logical if I illogically held on to a hope that was not supported by an evidence? 

 

Anything more than that can not be done. Again, I want to say how much I sympathize and feel, down to the core how hard this situation is. I commend you for wanting to try and broach these topics with your friends and I hope you found this of some value to you. 

 

Good on you for coming to that realization, it must have been a really hard choice to come to, hopefully it didn't have to much impact on you getting future work. I'm curious, not knowing anything about the kids you were nannying, do you think they'll realize that you left because you were enabling the parents? We're going through kind of a similar situation with my mother in law. She is a terribly manipulative person and a horrible parent (and yes she and her new husband work all the time), so my wife sat down and explained this to her along with everything she went through growing up, and how she does not want that for her sisters. Because of my mother in law's reaction we've decided it's not even worth speaking to her any longer. Our concern is still her sisters, however. We know, based on things she's done in the past, my mother in law is going to try to turn this around to make my wife look like the bad guy so her sisters feel sorry for their mom seemingly negating any positive effect we may have had. So my question is do you think the kids were old enough to understand your reasoning, or will might they understand later on in life? If not, is it worth it? I think for us it definitely was because my mother in law was such a negative force in our lives. Not trying to undermine your decision or say you were wrong at all just curious

 

Chances of convincing the wife to stay home: close to zero. I say this because I am the wife of a diplomat, and none of us trailing spouses financially need to work yet the vast majority work BS administrative embassy jobs and put their kids in daycare, because feeling a sense of agency and having respect as an adult with a job is more important. They think there will be no negative effect on the kids because everyone does it.

Anyway, better to recommend a high quality nanny such as a graduate of this school:
Http://WWW.nanny-governess.com

 

Thanks ebznflows, I'll check it out. I suppose if you're going to have a nanny anyway it should be the absolute best you can get. Although, do you think that's kind of enabling, putting you into a similar situation as to what bluberriesinabundance was in? Also, I think I know what you mean but just to clarify are you saying that the sense of agency and respect as an adult are more important, or that is just how it is viewed?

 

I don't know the specific episodes, but there are many that Stef brings up the same research which shows that children who are left by their parents for something like 22 hours a week demonstrate the same trauma as complete orphans. Perhaps pointing them to this research might be enough to shock them into thought.

As a child of a single mother who went back to full time work when I was 6 months old, I can attest to the harm caused by absent parents. Those early experiences of feeling re-abandoned 5 days a week are still something I'm working on.

From the description of this couple I doubt you'll have much luck in intervening. If you could get them into the peaceful parenting podcasts under the guise of "general preparing to be parents", the message that is unavoidable in them is the importance of being with your young children. However, as has been said above, you cannot help change somebody who is not open and willing to change themselves.

Has your wife thought about what will become of this friendship if they do not change? In my experience, the self erasure required to maintain relationships with people who live lives opposed to the core virtues you hold dearly is not worth it.

 

Thanks Kurtis. We've been trying to get as much research to them as possible, this was the main reason behind starting this thread. Unfortunately they, or at least the husband, seems to have a fear of anything that counters NPR or mainstream media, so although I'm still throwing as much Stef into the mix as possible it seems like we have a better chance with other sources (as I think is the point of everything Stef and the guys put out there). To answer your question though, yes my wife has thought about what might become of their friendship, and it kind of goes back to what I was saying above about grouping or categorizing your friends. We have been at least able to get our thoughts out to them without them completely shutting down, so there's a chance (albeit small) that something they find or something we show them may change their minds. The way I'm looking at it is we're surrounded by people who have been brainwashed their entire lives. Some of them will immediately shut you down and treat you like you have the plague, while others will listen. Although they might not agree immediately, which in many cases may be a bad sign as well, you can slowly chip away and hopefully will have some effect eventually. If nothing else lead by example.

 

Hi Koroviev,

 

First, I would like to commend you for trying to reach out to these people. I think it takes courage and goodness of character to try to help someone who you profess to be friends with.

 

I have certainly read through the entire posts that precede mine and I hope they help you.

 

What I would suggest is to sit them down and have an honest conversation with them. If you were to sit them down for maybe an hour or two and ask them about their situation, maybe that can help you get some more information to act from there. My thoughts are that your curiosity might open up their hearts to their own situations. Maybe you can ask them questions like : "Why do you want kids?", "Do you want your kids to like you?", "What are the advantages of having a big house for your child?", "Why would you rather work than we with your child?", "How many options do you see in your life?", "What is the end goal you are trying to achieve with having kids and a bigger house?". Some questions like this might help them understand themselves better. And also, I think will it help with your relationships with them too

 

I hope this suggestion helps! I'm curious to see how everything turns out. Maybe it will be good ending!

 

Thanks, I really do appreciate your kind words. As I'm sure you know it's sometimes hard to know if you really are doing the right thing. I think I've hit on everything above, but let me know if I've missed anything.

[Kurtis]

 

The way I'm looking at it is we're surrounded by people who have been brainwashed their entire lives. 

....

 If nothing else lead by example.

 

 

 

I agree Koroviev.  It's a bit disorienting sometimes, after leaving the sane conversations at FDR, to witness the extent that people are unwilling or unable to respond to reason and evidence.  The one thing we can do, and it may be the most effective too, is to incorporate what we learn into our own lives, to lead by example.  I like the way Stef describes this, "To shine so brightly..."

 

Keep up the good work.  I hope these people do come around eventually to realize how lucky they are to have you and your wife in their lives.

[Koroviev]

Thanks Kurtis I really do appreciate the kind words

[Koroviev]

I am having a little difficulty understanding part of your question, would you mind clarifying it before I go on to answer your other questions? I'd really appreciate it 

 

When you said "If not, is it worth it?" What do you mean by that? Are you asking if the kids could not understand my reasoning, or might never, was it worth bringing it up with the mother? Just want to clarify because I don't want to answer questions based on assumptions. 

 

Yes, no problem. So the argument that you put forward was that you could not be a positive influence on the children if you let their mom manipulate you. Stef has made this argument as well, and if I understand it correctly it's basically, why would the children want to be "good people" if the only "good people" they have in their lives are pushed around and manipulated by not so good people. Therefore, good people need to get out of that situation in order to show that "good people" don't always, or have to, be manipulated by not so good people. But, if the kids are to young to understand why you are leaving them, or never are able to come to that conclusion, is it still worth it to leave them, or would you be able to do more good by continuing to be a direct positive influence on them?

[Koroviev]

I am having a little difficulty understanding part of your question, would you mind clarifying it before I go on to answer your other questions? I'd really appreciate it 

When you said "If not, is it worth it?" What do you mean by that? Are you asking if the kids could not understand my reasoning, or might never, was it worth bringing it up with the mother? Just want to clarify because I don't want to answer questions based on assumptions. 

 

Also, just to clarify, I'm not trying to say you made the wrong decision, in fact an 100% agree with the choice you made for lots of reasons, I just think it's an interesting question and wanted to get your thoughts.

[Koroviev]

I also think they are interesting questions and I don't mind answering them. Sorry it took me a while to respond my personal life has been very busy recently.

P.S. - Even if you thought I had made the wrong decision I would have been totally fine with that. I would have disagreed with you, but I wouldn't take it personally if you respectfully disagreed. 

 

I am really sorry to hear about the situation you are in with your mother in law. Though I have to say how admirable it was that your wife sat down with her to talk about her experience as a child and how she wanted better for her sisters. That kind of conversation takes so much courage. Given the little information you've told me about your wife's mother I wouldn't be surprised if she tried to make your wife out to be the bad one here. There is no doubt in my mind that the mother of the children I cared for did the same. I know how badly that hurts and how horribly unjust it all is and for that I deeply sympathize with what you two must be going through. 

 

As for my decision to leave the kids, it was a really hard choice no doubt about that. To answer your question of do I think the children will one day realize the real reason as to why I left, well it's hard to say. I am just going to go with reason and odds to answer this one to the best of my ability.

 

I think their youngest probably will not. She was 2 months old when I took on care with her full time and I left before she turned two (13 months). Given the fact that I doubt she will even remember me there is little to no chance she will come to this realization as she was just a baby at the time I was apart of her family. The son I believe has better chances, while still admittedly low. I believe this to be the case because he was almost five when I left. We spent 4 years bonding with one another, he saw the interactions I had with his mother, and we had many age appropriate conversations together about his mother and family life. He is also exceptionally bright, and very curious. It wouldn't surprise me if there came a day where he wanted to know more about what happened and came to me to find out more. 

 

I believe leaving them was worth it, whether they find out the reason or not, yes. I miss the children terribly and I still suffer the loss to this day but the reason I chose to leave more than anything had to do with what was best for me not what was best for the children. I was not happy there, and more than that, I was no longer living by my morals and values. I was depressed and physically ill around them and there was no way I could move forward in my life or in my healing while still being there. So that is why it was absolutely worth it to me. 

 

Sorry for the delayed reply, apparently I just stopped getting notifications for replys

 

But I completely agree, it's an extremely tough situation to be put into. For us we just knew as soon as we cut ties, my mother-in-law would find some new, terrible, influence to bring into their lives but the emotional roller-coaster she was putting my wife through was not fair. Also, I think a large part if it is that although her sisters may never really understand the why behind it, if we had stuck around and gone along with my mother-in-law, it would absolutely have been a reinforcement of her behavior.