Dad Bod

[MagnumPI]

Some might not like the humor, or something else about the guy's approach but I do and you can find dry, boring articles anywhere on the topic. Which is new to me. I've never heard of this dad bod thing. Being where I am, I see pretty girls with douches of all kinds, all the time, but never considering it was a thing. I just figured it's a desperation move from people afraid to leave a small town.

 

This bothers me a lot. More than I can even clearly understand why. It's like a turning point. It's one thing when feminists and the like demand to be accepted for being fat and unhealthy. If they start demanding it of men too, it just seems like the last straw before absolute failure as a species. In a shallow society, we already know women don't value intelligence as much as they should. But when they don't even want attractive men anymore, where else is there to go?

 

Anyway, those are my initial thoughts. Love to hear commentary on this from the board.

[J. D. Stembal]

You can't strike out if you keep hitting foul balls.

 

The use of irony is brilliant! I enjoyed the pizza burrito/shotgun skit. I used to do that during my freshman year in college and gained the "freshman fifteen" with beer to wash it down, of course.

 

I don't believe his conclusion about women is correct, however. He is so close to seeing it. Women aren't idolizing the "dad bod" in an attempt to make themselves feel better or superior than men. That does not explain the reason why. Women who don't deny their natural instincts are repulsed by the flabby, and turned on by the toned. It's hardwired into our genes. Just as men are attracted to the natural features of female fertility, the eggs will seek to swap spit with the male signs of virility - height, low body fat, significant hair growth, healthy skin glow, and prominent muscles.

 

However, women also know that the more virile the male, the more able he is pursue sex with multiple women, or "trade up" when her eggs go sour. This throws a wrench into the plans of women who want to settle down and raise a family. While she won't think too hard about boning the stud, she knows that she may have to settle for a lesser mate, who is willing to stick around and provide for her family. Perhaps she can cuckold her "dad bod" husband into helping pass along the genetic product of her union with the studly male.

 

Personal anecdote: When I was still dating her, my ex had a picture of Rich Froning as her background on her laptop. Was this the man she really wanted? Was she turning off the lights and imaging that she was screwing him? She told me I was "hot" when she first met me. Why wasn't there a shirtless picture of me on her laptop? Perhaps it was the absence of a biblical tattoo? I wonder.

 

 

As a footnote, the prevalence of fit-shaming in the media - the "dad bod craze" being the latest incarnation - is an attempt to camouflage Briffault's Law, hypergamy, and women's desire for virile men. Consider the name of the podcast, Bro Science, which is in itself a crack at the modern science of nutrition, health and fitness. Women are saying they do not want to date men like Rich Froning because they are desperate to reproduce with men like Rich Froning! They don't want their merely mortal husbands to find out. It would prompt a conversation that they do not wish to have, except with their gossiping girlfriends during a girl's night out.

[WasatchMan]

Sounds like a guy that is pissed because he put most of his identity into having a ripped and chiseled body and is worried that the value of this decision is going to be eroded by "dad bod" (whatever the hell that really is and means)

 

In a shallow society, we already know women don't value intelligence as much as they should. But when they don't even want attractive men anymore, where else is there to go?
 

 

I don't think there is any reason to fear that women are going to decide that they are attracted to non-intelligent jelly fish, ever.

[J. D. Stembal]

Sounds like a guy that is pissed because he put most of his identity into having a ripped and chiseled body and is worried that the value of this decision is going to be eroded by "dad bod" (whatever the hell that really is and means)

 

 

I don't think there is any reason to fear that women are going to decide that they are attracted to non-intelligent jelly fish, ever.

 

How much time, effort, and resources do you think it takes to have a physique like the Bro Science Life podcaster?

 

Please explain how his displeasure is different than investing in philosophy, self-knowledge, and virtue only to find out that the value of this decision is eroded by the existence of a state that extracts resources from the most honorable and productive by force, and gives much of it to single mothers.

[WasatchMan]

Please explain how his displeasure is different than investing in philosophy, self-knowledge, and virtue only to find out that the value of this decision is eroded by the existence of a state that extracts resources from the most honorable and productive by force, and gives much of it to single mothers.

 

I don't think my original statement is opposed to your analogy.  All I was doing is pointing to the motivation in the agitation to "dad bods", not saying he didn't have the right to be agitated.  Both scenarios can cause agitation.

 

However, there are fundamental differences between the two scenarios:

 

When you invest in philosophy, self-knowledge, and virtue, and therefore discover the truth that the society you live in is caged by an inherently evil and predatory system run by wrong philosophy and worse parenting, it is a pretty perspective altering event that should change how you view and react to every single situation you find yourself in from that moment on.

 

When you invest in waste size biceps to attract women, and discover that some women are actually not attracted to that, you....???? I don't know, pick up the next blonde that does?

[shirgall]

No matter how they are grown, apparently someone will get a sour grape.

[J. D. Stembal]

I don't think my original statement is opposed to your analogy.  All I was doing is pointing to the motivation in the agitation to "dad bods", not saying he didn't have the right to be agitated.  Both scenarios can cause agitation.

 

However, there are fundamental differences between the two scenarios:

 

When you invest in philosophy, self-knowledge, and virtue, and therefore discover the truth that the society you live in is caged by an inherently evil and predatory system run by wrong philosophy and worse parenting, it is a pretty perspective altering event that should change how you view and react to every single situation you find yourself in from that moment on.

 

When you invest in waste size biceps to attract women, and discover that some women are actually not attracted to that, you....???? I don't know, pick up the next blonde that does?

 

How can you be so certain what his motivation is? Perhaps he wants to live a long and healthy life, and the constant furtive glances he gets from women is the icing on the cake of being a fit man?

 

The podcaster is displeased with the vocal bandwagon shaming of fitness, when he knows that women naturally prefer healthy and fit men. Biologically, men prefer to mate with fertile women just as women prefer to mate with virile men. However, since women dictate all the conditions of the family, if they don't want to start families with the fitter men, they will praise the opposite - "the real man" - while covertly mating with the more desirable ones.

 

What if a man claimed that he liked Rosanne Barr because she's more realistic looking than Taylor Swift? If anyone even listened to the message, they would die of laughter. Everyone knows that men adore the young and pretty girls for their fertility. This is why strip clubs exists. Gyms exist, too.

 

Are you saying that making healthy and active lifestyle choices isn't a foundational and perspective altering discovery, like pursuing philosophy and self-knowledge is? All of the Americans that lost their health care insurance plan under ACA would probably object. Not only do people that make foundational choices based on their future health get reamed in the wallet by Obamacare and pay for the irresponsibility of the willfully sick and ignorant, they get shamed for their relative healthiness in the media, and in the eyes of women.

 

How much time, effort and resources does it take to have the healthy physique of the Bro Science Life podcaster?

 

How much time, effort and resources are being sucked into the morally hazardous black hole of Obamacare?

 

Which of the above costs more? Keep in mind that preventable diseases account for at least 80% of all illness and 90% of health care costs. http://www.preventdisease.com/worksite_wellness/health_stats.shtml

[WasatchMan]

How can you be so certain what his motivation is? Perhaps he wants to live a long and healthy life, and the constant furtive glances he gets from women is the icing on the cake of being a fit man?

 

The podcaster is displeased with the vocal bandwagon shaming of fitness, when he knows that women naturally prefer healthy and fit men. Biologically, men prefer to mate with fertile women just as women prefer to mate with virile men. However, since women dictate all the conditions of the family, if they don't want to start families with the fitter men, they will praise the opposite - "the real man" - while covertly mating with the more desirable ones.

 

What if a man claimed that he liked Rosanne Barr because she's more realistic looking than Taylor Swift? If anyone even listened to the message, they would die of laughter. Everyone knows that men adore the young and pretty girls for their fertility. This is why strip clubs exists. Gyms exist, too.

 

Are you saying that making healthy and active lifestyle choices isn't a foundational and perspective altering discovery, like pursuing philosophy and self-knowledge is? All of the Americans that lost their health care insurance plan under ACA would probably object. Not only do people that make foundational choices based on their future health get reamed in the wallet by Obamacare and pay for the irresponsibility of the willfully sick and ignorant (95% of all disease is caused by lifestyle choice), they get shamed for their relative healthiness in the media, and in the eyes of women.

 

How much time, effort and resources does it take to have the healthy physique of the Bro Science Life podcaster?

 

How much time, effort and resources are being sucked into the morally hazardous black hole of Obamacare?

 

Which of the above costs more?

 

I think you are taking what I said to an extreme that I wasn't trying to connote.  I wasn't trying to say fitness is not important or anything of that matter.  I myself do support clean eating and healthy living with my own lifestyle.  I was talking about my opinions (key word opinion, please feel free to have your own) around the motivations of someone upset about the standard of fitness being eroded. Not whether it is good or bad to have a high standard of fitness.

 

All I was trying to point out in my second statement was that there is a difference in an aesthetic appreciation for fitness vs. an ethical understanding of good and evil.

[J. D. Stembal]

All I was trying to point out in my second statement was that there is a difference in an aesthetic appreciation for fitness vs. an ethical understanding of good and evil.

 

I wholly agree with this statement.

 

While health and fitness are aesthetically preferable behaviors rather than ethical issues within the UPB framework, they are existentially more relevant and more important to human life than ethics or philosophy. Without health and a laundry list of other critical items, you will die prematurely. Ethics, good and evil cease to matter if you are dead.

 

Exhibit A: Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

 

 

Health is clearly more foundational to the human experience meaning that it is a priority over morality, which is a higher order necessity. Likewise, health is nothing compared to air, food, sleep and water. If you don't have those first, you will never achieve health.

 

However, under the coercive yoke of the current state apparatus, health becomes an afterthought. When people have their health care subsidized by others, they no longer feel the necessity to pursue health and fitness and it disappears from their hierarchy of needs. Health care becomes infected by moral hazard, which is a moral issue because it involves the theft and redistribution of property, a violation of the NAP.

 

This offers a possible explanation as to why your first reaction was:

 

Sounds like a guy that is pissed because he put most of his identity into having a ripped and chiseled body and is worried that the value of this decision is going to be eroded...

 

Who wouldn't be pissed if he invested time, effort, and resources into attaining health, and then gets smacked down with ACA, which disproportionally steals money from young men and gives it the elderly and women?

 

His complaints about women idolizing pudgy fathers are slightly off the mark. It would be more productive and accurate to discuss how the whims of women ultimately become state-organized crusades against men, of which fit-shaming is just the latest manifestation.

 

Going back to the video, this is probably the most insightful and salient quote, the rest consisting of largly farce, flair and fluff:

 

 

 

It's easy, it's all about me, and it tells me exactly what I want to hear. It's an attraction to the physical manifestation of complacency, which is [essentially the same as saying?] I plagiarized from a textbook. Though I 100% disagree with their lifestyle choice to be [bitchmate?], believe it or not, there are some dudes with beer guts that have goals and strong personalities, but thanks to the dad bod craze, being a person of worth is just as unattractive as being in shape.

 

If this was a video about voluntarism within the family, instead of health and fitness, we would still have to point out the relevance of female nature, hypergamy, Briffault's Law, and how it relates to the expansion of state power, alimony, child support, and division of the family unit.

[Pepin]

Now that I have a decent amount of muscle on my frame now, my dating pool is more limited, but perhaps in a good way. I think I'd try to get my partner to go to the gym all the time, and I would probably blather on about exercise form and progression schemes, and not everyone can deal with that. I would have trouble dating someone who was fat.

 

I talk about it with my coworkers and friends a decent amount, and most aren't that interested, though they like hearing me talk about what I am doing on more of a surface level.

[James Dean]

I had a wholly different reaction to this whole dad bod thing. As im sure a lot of you here can relate to, unfortunately one of my first significant experiences of sexuality was via lingerie ads and pornography. As i got older and more experienced, I noticed real women in the real world don't look so much like lingerie models and porn stars... And the ones who have invested the time and energy into looking like that havent invested the time and energy into philosophy and practicing consistent virtue. I personally feel the attraction to women who have that kind of ridiculous and often airbrushed body to be kinda false-self, as those things are markers of fertility and perhaps health to some extent (if being fucking anorexic is healthy) and find myself much more attracted to women who were good people first. Now that's not to suggest physical appearance is not at all important, of course it is, but people who place a lot of emphasis on their partner having the perfect body are focusing on the wrong thing. If anything this is a positive thing as perhaps it suggests that women are beginning to focus less on things that are more or less inconsequential (not that fitness is, but the difference between being in shape and this muscled monstrosity is) and more on far more important qualities, a man that can provide, is emotionally stable, is a kind and loving father etc.

 

Just my thoughts, let me know what you think.

[MagnumPI]

I had a wholly different reaction to this whole dad bod thing. As im sure a lot of you here can relate to, unfortunately one of my first significant experiences of sexuality was via lingerie ads and pornography. As i got older and more experienced, I noticed real women in the real world don't look so much like lingerie models and porn stars... And the ones who have invested the time and energy into looking like that havent invested the time and energy into philosophy and practicing consistent virtue. I personally feel the attraction to women who have that kind of ridiculous and often airbrushed body to be kinda false-self, as those things are markers of fertility and perhaps health to some extent (if being fucking anorexic is healthy) and find myself much more attracted to women who were good people first. Now that's not to suggest physical appearance is not at all important, of course it is, but people who place a lot of emphasis on their partner having the perfect body are focusing on the wrong thing. If anything this is a positive thing as perhaps it suggests that women are beginning to focus less on things that are more or less inconsequential (not that fitness is, but the difference between being in shape and this muscled monstrosity is) and more on far more important qualities, a man that can provide, is emotionally stable, is a kind and loving father etc.

 

Just my thoughts, let me know what you think.

 

I'm mixed on this perspective. If it were true that women are becoming 'deeper' then, fantastic! I don't think it happens to be the case, but regardless, time will tell.

 

My thing about working out is like anything else. If you're going to do it at all, do it well. And if you're adhering to that, it only takes a few hours a week to get pretty jacked. Like the most ripped guy in the gym gets in about an hour a day. If he's got extra low body-fat, like below 8, he might get 2. But then, he might bike to work and jog with his dog or swim or something, which is technically a second hobby or activity.

 

So, it's about more than just "abs are hot". Then if we look at the average time someone spends in front of the TV, well, guess what else they could be doing? According to the CDC, 80% of Americans don't get the measly 2.5 hours of recommended exercise per week.

 

Working out isn't necessarily virtuous or anything, but what it tells me about a person is that they care more about their body than whatever the hell is happening on Survivor Island or how some Kardashian's ass looks this week. If I meet a woman and she's read like 10 books this year, she doesn't need to be rock solid, certainly. But I haven't dated many women who are in really great shape and none who read a lot or seeks vast amounts of knowledge, even many who pursue a skill. I don't even know any men in either category. If there are any numbers on those things, I'd like to see them. But I bet they wouldn't be good.

 

This dad bod, according to the referenced articles in the video, seem to be less about a man who is more virtuous but simply a man who is less serious. He doesn't take his life too seriously, eats junk food, but gets a little exercise on the weekend. From what I've read, it's just a desire for someone with a lifestyle without any real definition, no extreme ambition or drive toward anything specific. Admittedly, I haven't done a ton of research or anything.

[J. D. Stembal]

Just my thoughts, let me know what you think.

 

It is important to consider that bodybuilders, power lifters, athletes, and their ilk do what they do for themselves first. Of course, most of them are going to also be interested in how it relates to their sexual marketplace value.

 

The BroScienceLife spokesman says in this video, "You started off lifting to get chicks, but now you do it to be better than everyone else." According to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, health comes before self-esteem, which is two levels higher on the pyramid, one level higher than sex.

 

Here is the logic of it:

 

0. I am alive!

 

1. Being strong and healthy is beneficial for my vitality and constitution, so I will work toward this goal.

2. Being strong and healthy is appealing in a mate, so I will increase my chances of reproducing.

3. Once I am strong and healthy, I will raise children that will have a positive role model.

4. My children will likely be strong and healthy and reproduce.

5. All of these aspects of being strong and healthy are beneficial to my self-esteem.

 

All of this takes priority over philosophy, which resides at the highest level of needs. Philosophy is not required for life or reproduction, hence why there are few female philosophers. Women are concerned with reproduction, first and foremost.

 

When women praise and idealize the Dad Bod, they short-circuit this logical progression. If women are no longer selecting for strength and health in fathers, what will be the result after ten generations? What we have now is discouraging, and I don't expect that it will be improving.

 

The assessment that women are now searching for the big dick of philosophy at the expense of shredded ab muscles is a little hard to swallow. What are the odds that they would choose to sacrifice crucial parts of the three middle layers of Maslow's Hierarchy in order to have more higher order needs? Remember, these are the people with the eggs.

 

What are the odds?

[James Dean]

The assessment that women are now searching for the big dick of philosophy at the expense of shredded ab muscles is a little hard to swallow. What are the odds that they would choose to sacrifice crucial parts of the three middle layers of Maslow's Hierarchy in order to have more higher order needs? Remember, these are the people with the eggs.

 

What are the odds?

That's a really good point, I can certainly see a natural selection argument in that women are going to want to choose mates who are most suited to the environment. And yes, for a long time that trait was largely physical strength... but as the paradigm of society shifts from being mostly manual labor and material goods to more of a technology and information based economy, wouldn't the most desireable traits change as well? As (average, non politically connected) men are more able to provide for families without slaving in a mine, field, or construction site, having chiseled abbs becomes less valuable in the sexual marketplace. And again, isn't this a good thing? I'm not saying that the dad Bob phenomenon is definitively indicative of that, it's impossible to know for sure, just another way to interpret the data.

 

Edit: As an afterthought, I don't think not having chiseled abs is the same as being unhealthy. From what I have read the whole point of the "dad bod" is that you're not out of shape, youre just not ripped. Again, I would compare it to a man having a more realistic standard of beauty and not lusting after the dehydrated slabs of bikini-jerky modern culture calls "super- models"

 

And just because this body type is gaining more popularity doesn't mean that it will completely displace other standards of attraction. While the scientific input is important, let's remember were talking about the personal preferences of women, there will always be a fascination and deep attraction to a sculpted physique, like you pointed out, it's embedded in our biology.

[J. D. Stembal]

Edit: As an afterthought, I don't think not having chiseled abs is the same as being unhealthy. From what I have read the whole point of the "dad bod" is that you're not out of shape, youre just not ripped. Again, I would compare it to a man having a more realistic standard of beauty and not lusting after the dehydrated slabs of bikini-jerky modern culture calls "super- models"

 

Barbell Shrugged weigh in on the question of the Dad Bod. Perhaps this video will offer some clarity to the thread, since my words did not.

 

[shirgall]

@JDStembal, I think a lot of others are in agreement with you:

 

http://anymanfitness.com/its-not-the-dad-bod-thats-the-problem-its-the-dad-mindset/

 

 

The problem with the “Dad Bod” isn’t that I’m judgmental of other’s shortcomings.

The problem with the “Dad Bod” is that the message is fake as hell.

It’s a complete fabrication. It’s a facade. It’s hiding behind a mask of lies, and a wall of bullshit. It’s proclaiming “I have a ‘Dad Bod’ and I’m okay with that” when you are actually hurting inside. Doing this is extremely dangerous to your own psyche and your ultimate goals of self-improvement.

[AustinJames]

But... Do you guys even lift?  Like, seriously... do you even lift, bro?

[MagnumPI]

I do. Less right now, since the only gym I can afford at the moment is the one at my apartment complex(included in rent). I get some work in, but they don't have the equipment to max.

[J. D. Stembal]

@JDStembal, I think a lot of others are in agreement with you:

 

http://anymanfitness.com/its-not-the-dad-bod-thats-the-problem-its-the-dad-mindset/

 

Thank you so much for that link, but I did not appreciate how he frames his quest for fitness as providing a positive role model for his two young daughters while also leaving them in daycare. His daughters are probably not particularly concerned if he has a beer gut or not. However, I imagine that they would like more time with their father and mother.

 

My dad had a bit of an athletic build when I was very young (I noticed by looking photographs), but I also only spent eight to ten hours a week with him at the most during my formative years (0-5). Currently, he's still struggling along with the complications resulting from a heart attack he had in 1998 at age 47, incurring tens of thousands of dollars in medical costs, and I no longer speak to him. Perhaps it would have paid off better for him in the long run if he didn't go to night school for an MBA, spending so much time away from his son, and running many miles a week to stay fit. I'm not going to continue to shield him from the consequences of his terrible choices. The same policy goes for my mother who doesn't understand why I'm angry about being circumcised against my will before I could even comprehend what was happening to me.

 

Take what you want and pay for it.

 

There are many female "body positivity" videos rolling out as of late. This is the female flip side of the Dad Bod. Notice how she addresses her male detractors, and not her female critics. For every person, male or female, sending LoeyLane messages of support for her bravery and confidence in her flab, I'll show you a person who probably also wants to criticize BroScienceLife for his "obsession" with fitness. To be that ripped, you have to be obsessed, right?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA3ij7Qx26A

 

Here's another popular body positivity blogger, Sarah Rae Vargus:

 

 

Edit: Finally, some female common sense was displayed over the internet on the matter of Dad Bod.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4lBldKWN6k

[fractional slacker]

Extremely opinionated opinion warning.
This video style of cut and start is impossible to watch. The woman is incredibly obnoxious and comes off as a total douche. I could only take 2 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=125&v=l4lBldKWN6k

[Mister Mister]

There are many female "body positivity" videos rolling out as of late. This is the female flip side of the Dad Bod. Notice how she addresses her male detractors, and not her female critics. For every person, male or female, sending LoeyLane messages of support for her bravery and confidence in her flab, I'll show you a person who probably also wants to criticize BroScienceLife for his "obsession" with fitness. To be that ripped, you have to be obsessed, right?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA3ij7Qx26A

 

I don't quite see what you are getting at.  She seems pretty reasonable, encourages healthy eating and exercise, quite lovely and happily married, but happens to have a larger body type.  And she is pointing out some real, pretty nasty and cruel bigotry out there.  My major criticism is she is pretending to know the psychological motivations of mean people.  A lot of the stuff on this topic is pretty ridiculous, claiming that all standards of attractiveness are social constructs, as well as standards of health.  Given what we know about how overeating can be another compulsive addiction to manage pain from childhood trauma, we should have sympathy, but contempt for those who would enable them.  But this woman doesn't seem to be doing that.  I just wouldn't want to get caught in some kind of false dichotomy, on the side of mean people.

[J. D. Stembal]

I don't quite see what you are getting at.  She seems pretty reasonable, encourages healthy eating and exercise, quite lovely and happily married, but happens to have a larger body type.  And she is pointing out some real, pretty nasty and cruel bigotry out there.  My major criticism is she is pretending to know the psychological motivations of mean people.  A lot of the stuff on this topic is pretty ridiculous, claiming that all standards of attractiveness are social constructs, as well as standards of health.  Given what we know about how overeating can be another compulsive addiction to manage pain from childhood trauma, we should have sympathy, but contempt for those who would enable them.  But this woman doesn't seem to be doing that.  I just wouldn't want to get caught in some kind of false dichotomy, on the side of mean people.

 

How does LoeyLane encourage healthy eating and exercise when she doesn't follow her own advice? Like Stefan is apt to point out, you don't see many diet books with a fat person on the cover. Objectively, neither of these women are healthy even though they might look somewhat attractive once they put on make-up.

 

I get that eating patterns are influenced by hormones, mainly, as well as human psychology, but a painful childhood of being teased about your weight, or sexually molested, does not give you a license to tell other people that it's OK to be objectively unhealthy. I have empathy for addictions because I was addicted to alcohol and drugs for twenty years.

 

Empathy only goes so far. Healthy people, such as myself, have to pay for the damage people like LoeyLane and Sarah Rae Vargus are doing to the socialized health care economy, which will only get worse when they age. In one of Sarah's videos - not the one I linked - she briefly mentions that she has four different doctors that she sees. She is twenty-five years old, and I don't think she's ever been pregnant.

 

I watched the LoeyLane video again just to be sure. She is actively enabling women to ignore male comments while she deletes the negative comments from her videos. She thinks that she is pretty damn healthy and she doesn't care what anyone else thinks because her husband thinks she is bangin'. How is this a good attitude?

[Mister Mister]

How does LoeyLane encourage healthy eating and exercise when she doesn't follow her own advice? Like Stefan is apt to point out, you don't see many diet books with a fat person on the cover. Objectively, neither of these women are healthy even though they might look somewhat attractive once they put on make-up.

 

I get that eating patterns are influenced by hormones, mainly, as well as human psychology, but a painful childhood of being teased about your weight, or sexually molested, does not give you a license to tell other people that it's OK to be objectively unhealthy. I have empathy for addictions because I was addicted to alcohol and drugs for twenty years.

 

I watched the LoeyLane video again just to be sure. She is actively enabling women to ignore male comments while she deletes the negative comments from her videos. She thinks that she is pretty damn healthy and she doesn't care what anyone else thinks because her husband thinks she is bangin'. How is this a good attitude?

Well I can only go by what she says, which is that she eats well and exercises, but has the figure she has.  Some people have bigger bone structures and different metabolism.  A lot of skinny people are very unhealthy.  I can eat lots of crap and I won't get fat, but I feel crappy and get gas.  Yes maybe the makeup is silly, but otherwise looks like she has good skin, and if she is active, and feels good, I don't really see what the problem is.

 

"Objectively, neither of these women are healthy".  Are you some kind of magic doctor that can diagnose people from watching a video?  I agree that childhood trauma does not give you a license to tell other people it's okay to be unhealthy.  Didn't I say that?  Can you point out where she does this, I could be missing something.

 

How is it a good attitude to do your best to be physically healthy, and be confident in yourself, and satisfied that your spouse finds you attractive, and not care what mean assholes think about your appearance?  Do I really have to answer that?  Would you suggest she self-attacks and feels bad when some random guy says "god I hate fat people"?

 

Anyways I agree that enabling self-destructive behavior is bad, but also this obsession with a particular kind of body-type and attractiveness is gross and stupid.  Model types are nice to look at but probably not nice to bang.  That's what I meant when I said we should be careful to fall into a false dichotomy.

[J. D. Stembal]

Well I can only go by what she says, which is that she eats well and exercises, but has the figure she has.  Some people have bigger bone structures and different metabolism.  A lot of skinny people are very unhealthy.

 

Please explain how obesity is a marker of health. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. Can you also point out where I use a false dilemma?

 

All I need is sight to observe that someone, including me, is obese. It's not magic, or medicine. It's objective reality.

 

I wouldn't trust what LoeyLane says in assessing her own health because she, and many others like her, have this cognitive dissonance which leads them to believe that being obese is something to take pride in, rather than a detriment to their health. All you have to do is see how she dismisses logical criticisms of her weight. She admits to deleting comments critical of her, especially those from men. She admits to using click bait thumbnail pictures of her wearing two-piece swimsuits, which tend to attract those criticisms. She's running a scam.

 

I don't hate fat people, but if you consider voluntarism, self-autonomy, human psychology and physiology, you can only come to the conclusion that people choose to be how they are. No one gets as obese as LoeyLane accidentally. She chose this lifestyle, or perhaps she is perpetuating a choice made for her in childhood. It is up to her to acquire the requisite self-knowledge to understand why she is slowly killing herself. If she loved herself, as she claims, she would reduce her exposure to future health risks by losing weight.

 

The fact that her husband thinks she's hot gives her a built-in excuse to continue remaining obese, but she isn't asking herself why he prefers her that way. When I see someone try to lose weight and then abruptly quit trying, I know that there are people, usually family members, around him (or inside his head) who don't want him to lose weight.

 

I experienced this phenomenon when one of my ex-girlfriends felt threatened that I was losing weight. She would tell me often how she wanted me to have a beer gut, but she was not clear on the reasons behind her preference for my flab. It's probably revealing that she was incredibly jealous of other women who would talk to me. She did not want me to lose weight and then leave her for another woman.

 

I can remember all the other passing comments and shaming I received from people around me when I started tweaking my nutrition and habits in order to lose 40 pounds. Then, a couple years into it, someone sees me shirtless and exclaims, "Holy shit, you've got abs! When did that happen?"

 

For all these reasons, obese people break my heart. I cannot look at them closely in person unless I want to tear up. I hold no ill-will, but when the obese can have hundreds of thousands of subscribers on a health and beauty channel while they are peddling nonsensical and deterministic body positivity messages, I can't abide that kind of irresponsibility.

 

Social ostracism should be allowed to kick in and help the suffering people. The body positivity movement (and, economically, socialized health care) is preventing people from feeling the negative effects of their behaviors until it is too late.

 

Edit: Also, compare the message of LoeyLane with Alisa Vitti. Which sounds more empowering to women? To me, this is the difference between night and day.

 

[Mister Mister]

Hrrrmmm that's a very interesting and emotionally compelling argument, thanks J.D., I'll have to think about it.

[James Dean]

Idk I guess I'm confused. I could be using the terms wrong. Is dad-bod synonymous with being physically unfit?

 

Physical "fitness" is relative. I am physically fit for the activities and hobbies I enjoy like hiking, kayaking, camping in general, but I am not physically fit to run a marathon or bench 250lbs. So I don't know if I would say I have a "dad bod." I don't have a beer gut but I certainly don't have a six pack and I eat pretty much whatever I want. I've found a balance that works for me and as I age, my body will change, and the balance will readjust. Health in general is relative this way, what constitutes "healthy" for a 18 year old boy is not the same as what is "healthy" for an 89 year old woman. 

 

I think a lot of the fitness culture focuses on aesthetics and not the actual health of the individual. I am not overly athletic, but I am healthy. Those things are different. 

 

I guess what I mean is that once you get to the point where you are not obese and not unhealthy, why go any further if you don't want to? sure it might provide some additional benefit, but isn't there a diminishing returns? frankly I'd rather spend that time studying languages, or philosophy, or journaling, etc... things that improve my human capital in ways other than the physical... especially since we live in a society where incredible physical strength is not needed nearly as much as it was in the past. 

[shirgall]

Idk I guess I'm confused. I could be using the terms wrong. Is dad-bod synonymous with being physically unfit?

 

The way some people spin it, yes, it's tantamount to metabolic syndrome.

[J. D. Stembal]

Idk I guess I'm confused. I could be using the terms wrong. Is dad-bod synonymous with being physically unfit?

 

Physical "fitness" is relative. I am physically fit for the activities and hobbies I enjoy like hiking, kayaking, camping in general, but I am not physically fit to run a marathon or bench 250lbs. So I don't know if I would say I have a "dad bod." I don't have a beer gut but I certainly don't have a six pack and I eat pretty much whatever I want. I've found a balance that works for me and as I age, my body will change, and the balance will readjust. Health in general is relative this way, what constitutes "healthy" for a 18 year old boy is not the same as what is "healthy" for an 89 year old woman. 

 

I think a lot of the fitness culture focuses on aesthetics and not the actual health of the individual. I am not overly athletic, but I am healthy. Those things are different. 

 

I guess what I mean is that once you get to the point where you are not obese and not unhealthy, why go any further if you don't want to? sure it might provide some additional benefit, but isn't there a diminishing returns? frankly I'd rather spend that time studying languages, or philosophy, or journaling, etc... things that improve my human capital in ways other than the physical... especially since we live in a society where incredible physical strength is not needed nearly as much as it was in the past. 

 

Sure, take what you want and pay for it. No one has to see your rectus abdominus if you don't want them to see. I'm not going to shame you for your chosen priorities of language and philosophy. Are you offended when someone else has different goals than you?

 

I am concerned that you are echoing the sentiments of the hosts of Free Domain Radio, who subtly shun males with prominent ab muscles nearly every episode where they can fit it into the discussion. Apparently, being physically fit as a man is the analog of wearing high heels as a woman, or at least that is a small example of the impression that I have experienced thus far.

 

How do you know that you are healthy? What is your body fat percentage? How about your fasting blood glucose or Hemoglobin A1c? How can you eat "whatever I want"? There is a large contradiction in premises in those two statements, meaning you cannot eat whatever you want if you wish to remain healthful. Modern food is largely poisonous to humans, hence the plague of diabesity across the world, the rise of Obamacare in the United States, and the phenomenon of the "dad bod" and "feminine body positivity" to account for it in the sexual marketplace.

[cager]

The argument that attaining a lean, muscular physique necessarily comes at the expense of learning and expanding your mind is ridiculous. In order to develop muscle and gain strength consistently, you only need to work out around 3x a week for 45 minutes to an hour. So is it really that difficult to spend 3 hours a week at a gym? You can even listen to audiobooks and podcasts while working out--I do it all the time, Stefan even podcasted from a gym.

[shirgall]

No matter what, the time you spend doing something is not spent doing something else. That being said, it only takes minimal effort to attain a healthy level of activity. 3 hours a week at a gym is excessive for most people, but extra walking and bodyweight exercises are not.

[James Dean]

Are you offended when someone else has different goals than you?

 

Not at all. I'm curious as to the value of having chiseled abs when you don't need them to be healthy. As I said before, obviously you want to avoid obesity, but there is a point of diminishing returns.

 

 

I am concerned that you are echoing the sentiments of the hosts of Free Domain Radio, who subtly shun males with prominent ab muscles nearly every episode where they can fit it into the discussion. Apparently, being physically fit as a man is the analog of wearing high heels as a woman, or at least that is a small example of the impression that I have experienced thus far.

 

I appreciate your concern. I can assure you that whenever I am in agreement with Stef or Mike, it is because we have both independently come to the same conclusion. Honestly, I'm a little offended at the suggestion that I am "echoing" their sentiments, as it diminishes my agency in coming to my own conclusions.

 

Again you conflate having visible ab muscles, which can take a lot of time and effort to achieve depending on your age and metabolism, with physical fitness. Do you have evidence to suggest that people with flat but undefined stomachs are physically unfit? Physical fitness is relative. Since I see no additional benefit to having this feature, it appears to be an aesthetic choice to make yourself more attractive to the desired sex, this is why I would see it as being on the same level as high heels or make up for women. I have no problem with people who choose to get defined abs or with people who wear high heels and makeup, however all the time you spend doing crunches is time your not doing other things, and until you can provide evidence that the additional muscle mass is beneficial besides the visual appeal, I will choose to spend the time doing other things. (more on this later)

 

How do you know that you are healthy? What is your body fat percentage? How about your fasting blood glucose or Hemoglobin A1c? How can you eat "whatever I want"? There is a large contradiction in premises in those two statements, meaning you cannot eat whatever you want if you wish to remain healthful. Modern food is largely poisonous to humans, hence the plague of diabesity across the world, the rise of Obamacare in the United States, and the phenomenon of the "dad bod" and "feminine body positivity" to account for it in the sexual marketplace.

 

I know that I am healthy because I have markers of health. I can sustain physical activity for a long period of time without becoming exhausted. I don't know my exact body fat percentage or even what those other things mean, because that level of detail is not necessary for me to sustain health. As an analogy, when I ask for directions, I just need the street address, not the exact coordinates. Do I actually need to know my fasting blood glucose or Hemoglobin A1c or did you just put that in knowing I wouldn't know what that was? If its some metric of health I haven't heard of then I'd like to hear more about it, It just seemed to me like a rhetorical appeal to insecurity.

 

Eating whatever I want doesn't necessarily mean eating poorly, it means I am not overly restrictive with my diet. If I ate McDonald's every day I would feel like a piece of shit, so I don't do that. I rarely eat red meat, and eat out only as much as my wallet allows, so I say I eat fairly healthy, I'm just not counting calories because frankly I don't really need to. I am also not in the sexual marketplace anymore, I have one very loyal client. beyond keeping myself fit enough that I feel confident and my significant other sexually interested, the aesthetic aspect just doesn't appeal to me.

 

 

The argument that attaining a lean, muscular physique necessarily comes at the expense of learning and expanding your mind is ridiculous. In order to develop muscle and gain strength consistently, you only need to work out around 3x a week for 45 minutes to an hour. So is it really that difficult to spend 3 hours a week at a gym? You can even listen to audiobooks and podcasts while working out--I do it all the time, Stefan even podcasted from a gym.

 

I prefer to work out in other ways, like I said before, hiking, kayaking, biking etc. Do I spend the equivalent of 3 hours a week doing those things? I have no idea. I suppose you could listen to podcasts in the gym and I often listen to podcasts while doing menial tasks, but honestly what provides me the most benefit philosophically is not listening to podcasts, it's practicing philosophy in my life and investing time into self knowledge, podcasts and audiobooks are like snacks on the side. I agree that getting physically fit doesn't take a lot of time per week, but in my experience people who are into building visible muscle are working out more than that. That's obviously not an argument, just my experience of friends.

[MagnumPI]

Just to chime in a little on the 'getting into shape only takes x hours a week' thing, it's not so much the time but the actual activity that gets you either jacked, stamina or just maintaining. Lifting heavy will bulk you up at only 3 hours a week, provided you replenish nutrients and get 1g of protein per lb of bodyweight.

 

The hard part isn't going from Dad Bod to fit(say, for example, 17% body fat to 11%), it's getting from fit to jacked(down around 8% body fat or lower and higher levels of lean muscle mass) that takes a little more time and a lot more effort & dedication. All of course dependent on doing it right. Proper form, diet, routine, sleep habits, stress levels, etc.

Not that everyone needs to or should be fit, or anything. Just sayin'. From someone who went from skinny and low fat, to Dad Bod, to fit, to getting pretty ripped, I've got a little experience here for anyone interested in my insight.

[James Dean]

The hard part isn't going from Dad Bod to fit(say, for example, 17% body fat to 11%), it's getting from fit to jacked(down around 8% body fat or lower and higher levels of lean muscle mass) that takes a little more time and a lot more effort & dedication. All of course dependent on doing it right. Proper form, diet, routine, sleep habits, stress levels, etc.

Not that everyone needs to or should be fit, or anything. Just sayin'. From someone who went from skinny and low fat, to Dad Bod, to fit, to getting pretty ripped, I've got a little experience here for anyone interested in my insight.

 

I couldn't agree more. I think maintaining a healthy weight isn't all that time consuming, but the additional effort to get "jacked" is significant. Some choose to put in this additional effort and that's ok with me, just not really my cup of tea...er... protein shake. 

 

Again, I might be confused by the terminology, but what do we mean when we say fit? To me, fitness would be the minimum everyone should be at, the Aristotelian mean if you like. I don't see what's wrong with everyone being fit, as was pointed out earlier, being overweight causes serious health problems and puts you at much higher risk for a lot of different diseases so people who care about their life should be fit. My argument would be beyond negating negative health effects and maybe garnering a few positives as a bonus, what do you gain besides aesthetics? Most people don't use the muscle they gain for anything other than gaining more muscle. I'm happy to hear how I'm wrong, but it just seems motivated by vanity.

[MagnumPI]

It's not necessarily vanity. I would probably agree that it's true for the majority of people, but when does anyone on this site fit in to that category? So, if we're talking about the average idiot, well, who fuckin cares about them anyway. And then still, they've accomplished a good deal even if they only know it to be game-building or whatever. Getting strong is hard work.

It's like why get good at ping-pong? Or Tetris? For its own sake. That's the way it is with getting stronger. Ditto for endurance, if that's your thing. It manifests itself all over the place, too. Like for me, I'm into woodworking and working on cars. When I can bust something loose with little effort or carry twice as much from the garage, it's pretty cool. Or helping someone move, moving my own stuff, shooting guns, changing the Arrowhead jug in the breakroom, helping someone push their car off the road.

In a lot of ways it plays into self-knowledge, self-improvement and celebration of the body. Mastery of not one, but many more tools and of my own life.

Now, if we get back to the average asshole. In a perfect world, I could just bypass all of them, all the time. But that's not how it is. Everyday, it seems like, I have to deal with passive and active aggressive douches. If they're big, they think they're king shit. If they're small, they're whiney bitches think they can run their snotty mouths without getting told and once in a while try getting pushy. This is, of course, not everybody I run into, but it's like in Fight Club. Every guy wants to act hostile until it comes to being responsible for their actions. Or princesses expecting me get on my knees every time they snap their fingers. Is it the mangina that kisses their ass who they remember? No, it's the asshole at the bar who wouldn't get up and move or cater to their insecurity after he sat and listened to their inane non-conversations for half a fucking hour. They're all a lot less likely to pitch a fit if they think I'm an untouchable alpha or if they think they might get hurt for starting some shit.
... So there's that.

[James Dean]

Fair enough, man, excellent points. I don't think there's anything I can say about that besides "right on."

 

I'll be honest and say that it would be nice to be jacked, but like everything in my life it's a cost/benefit analysis. I'm currently in the middle of trying to get organized in other ways so hopefully more regular and deliberate exercise is something that makes its way in to my routine as well. It's certainly something I'd like to do and you've given some excellent reasons to do it. 

 

I think the thing that I wanted to highlight since the beginning of this thread is that those perks that you mentioned are just that; perks. I think it's important to note that the reason it's even called "dad bod" in the first place is that it describes someone who doesn't go to the gym every day because they are spending a lot of time being a father and focusing on their kids. I think in the grand scheme of life's priorities the difference between 11% body fat and 8% is way below being a positive and philosophical parent... not that the people who talk about dad bob usually have any idea what that means, but still it's worth pointing out. 

 

And just as a disclaimer I think all the feminist body positivity is nonsense, and basically an excuse not to have self knowledge... just in case that wasn't clear.