ClearConscience Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 On public forums, I've been seeing two main reactions to Bruce Jenner's transformation into Caitlyn Jenner. The first is of vitriolic disgust, where the individual holds a negative attitude toward the transition, and then attempts an ex post facto justification, e.g. he's not natural, he's creepy, etc. The other reaction is in loyal support, where the individual holds a positive attitude toward the transition, and then attempts an ex post facto justification, e.g. she's courageous, she's being honest about her true self, she's an inspiration to others who feel ashamed of who they are, on the inside, etc.However, none of these reactions have approached the situation with any level of philosophical rigor.A man who covers his entire face in tattoos is just "being himself". That doesn't mean he's not psychologically troubled and neurotic, and his socially deviant actions could be a result of this neurosis or psychosis. And if it were the case, is it appropriate to reinforce such actions? Of course, I would never suggest it is good to scorn a man for the result of psychologically traumatic experiences that were inflicted upon him, but I am questioning whether it is advisable to encourage this manner of coping with such trauma.I am questioning whether or not Bruce Jenner needs counselling. No, I'm not saying homosexuality is a psychosis. I'm not saying sexual desire for the same sex is a choice, nor psychosis. I'm saying the desire to wear dresses, wear make-up, have boobs, and employ other socially constructed, and culture specific behaviors, is not innate. It's learned from early childhood trauma.Before emotionally reacting to my comment, I want you to imagine a society where there was no gender role duality. Dresses, make-up, high heals, and purses were never invented in this society, or they were worn by both males and females alike. In such a society, the very notion of transgender could not possibly exist. Therefore, to be transgender is a product of the society that an individual lives in, and not a product of the individual herself. Transgender cannot be an innate attribute of an individual. 1 1
Donnadogsoth Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Sure it can be innate. Your hypothetical genderless society might contain members who would be what we would call transgender if they were put into a gender-binary society like ours. They might wonder what's wrong with them, that they have this psychological itch they cannot scratch. But of course it's beyond that, such a society could have cisgender people who feel likewise. Their social justice trajectory would be the movement towards a gender-binary society where they could fit in. Same goes for a heterosexual in a unisexual world, or a homosexual in a world where everybody is a unique combination of anatomy. This is the opposite of what we are moving towards in our society today. We are moving towards--did you ever perceive the film The Lawnmower Man? There's a scene where the titular character, possessed of psychic powers, transforms a living man into a mass of floating computerised bubbles. Imagine a man and a woman standing side by side. Now transform them both into bubble-masses, and have the bubble-masses mingle until there's only the odd occasional cluster of "more feminine" and "more masculine" traits, but most clusters are hopelessly intermediate.
_LiveFree_ Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 The same thing was said about homosexuality. You're wrapping bigotry up in pseudo-philosophy. How do you know he hasn't received therapy? Have you considered that transgenderism is an actual medical condition that most transgender folk hide? And that it takes an enormous amount of work and courage to go full time and be completely out as gender congruent? Also, transgender does not equal homosexual. To quote the Diane Sawyer interview, "Sexuality is who you want to go to bed with. Gender is who you want to go to bed as." It takes an incredible amount of work, money, and self-exploration to make a transition from one gender to the other. And if the person is happy and not hurting anyone else, what do you care? What's truly fascinating about having such a public figure come out like this is that it draws out the deep dysfunctions of certain people. These people typically come from a religious backgrounds, even if they are no longer religious, and want to question the public figure's authenticity. Also, the issue in question is far more often than not centered around genitals. If you "question" whether someone needs therapy or not because they are making peaceful life choices in order to increase their happiness that have zero ramifications for you, please turn that question around and put it where it belongs, on yourself. 3
labmath2 Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I imagine most of the arguments made about transgenderism can be made for most other mental illnesses. I imagine if you see people that aren't there and you know it is abnormal, you try to hide it. The difference is that non of us would defend schizophrenia as an identity (since there is no "normal" schizophrenic individual). However, for transgender, they become something that is normal for some other people. While i do not think its wrong, i think it prevents people from trying to find better solutions to the problem (one that helps you come to terms with your gender).
_LiveFree_ Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I imagine most of the arguments made about transgenderism can be made for most other mental illnesses. I imagine if you see people that aren't there and you know it is abnormal, you try to hide it. The difference is that non of us would defend schizophrenia as an identity (since there is no "normal" schizophrenic individual). However, for transgender, they become something that is normal for some other people. While i do not think its wrong, i think it prevents people from trying to find better solutions to the problem (one that helps you come to terms with your gender). I don't think you understand what it means to be transgender. It doesn't mean you don't like being your biological sex, it means you feel happy, comfortable, and right when you can express your true gender, which is not the gender you were assigned at birth. To transition is the opposite of running away. Telling a transgender person that they "need to come to terms with their assigned gender at birth" is like telling a homosexual that they need to come to terms with being sexually attracted to the opposite sex. I know this is difficult to understand for cisgender individuals as they live their whole lives in congruency. Just because something seems weird to you doesn't make it a dysfunction of the mind. Maybe, just maybe, you haven't researched enough to really understand what is going on. Also, being transgender is not a mental illness. It is a biological/physiological state. Transgender is just like being born intersex (both male and female genitalia), or conjoined twins, or having a heart defect at birth. The only difference is that the physical manifestation of it is not obvious to non-medically trained persons (just like a heart defect). We don't tell people with deformities to "find a better solution to the problem" than having corrective surgery. If you have cancer and the doctors can cut it out of you, you get it cut out. You don't "find a better solution to the problem". (I don't even know what that is supposed to mean) What solution do you think is bad? 2
J. D. Stembal Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I would not associate with a man with tattoos all over his face, but otherwise, what do I care about him? What people do to make themselves happy is not my business. 1
_LiveFree_ Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I would not associate with a man with tattoos all over his face, but otherwise, what do I care about him? What people do to make themselves happy is not my business. I'm wondering if you're implying that you would not associate with a transgender person? You are obviously free to, but I'm wondering why so. 1
J. D. Stembal Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I'm wondering if you're implying that you would not associate with a transgender person? You are obviously free to, but I'm wondering why so. I did not imply that at all. Someone with tattoos covering their face would freak me out because the face is how you determine someone's mood. I was sexually molested by a ladyboy (or so I suspected) in an alley in Bangkok. Other than that, I don't think I've been acquainted with a trans person.
_LiveFree_ Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Ok, thats why I asked. Wasn't sure. And holy crap I'm sorry to hear that 1
dayna j. Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I am questioning whether or not Bruce Jenner needs counselling. All transgendered people who choose to undergo hormone replacement therapy or sexual reassignment surgeries are required to participate in therapy/counseling. A quick google search would have revealed this fact. Why didn't you research this topic before posting about it? I'm saying the desire to wear dresses, wear make-up, have boobs, and employ other socially constructed, and culture specific behaviors, is not innate. It's learned from early childhood trauma. How do you know? You haven't made an argument here. You are merely asserting that it is the case without providing any reason or evidence. Remember your prior comment about "philosophical rigor" ? Where is your rigor? 1 1
ClearConscience Posted June 2, 2015 Author Posted June 2, 2015 You: The same thing was said about homosexuality. You're wrapping bigotry up in pseudo-philosophy. Me: Please, rephrase my comment so that it could be said of homosexuality. You haven't even put any thought into this criticism, because it cannot be said of homosexuality. Sexuality is not a social construct. How do you know he hasn't received therapy? Have you considered that transgenderism is an actual medical condition that most transgender folk hide? And that it takes an enormous amount of work and courage to go full time and be completely out as gender congruent? The point is that his behavior cannot be a function of innate things... because gender cannot be innate. I act like "a man" and wear "men's clothes" because society has defined what "a man" and "men's clothes" are. Those definitions are dependent upon the society that I live in, not the genes that I possess. Also, transgender does not equal homosexual. To quote the Diane Sawyer interview, "Sexuality is who you want to go to bed with. Gender is who you want to go to bed as." duh... It takes an incredible amount of work, money, and self-exploration to make a transition from one gender to the other. And if the person is happy and not hurting anyone else, what do you care? I don't endorse socially deviant behavior as a coping mechanism for early childhood trauma. What's truly fascinating about having such a public figure come out like this is that it draws out the deep dysfunctions of certain people. These people typically come from a religious backgrounds, even if they are no longer religious, and want to question the public figure's authenticity. Also, the issue in question is far more often than not centered around genitals. If you "question" whether someone needs therapy or not because they are making peaceful life choices in order to increase their happiness that have zero ramifications for you, please turn that question around and put it where it belongs, on yourself. I would suggest supporting your claims instead of just espousing them as if they were intuitively obvious. I don't know of anybody here who would fit into any of the descriptions you wrote. Judge a tree by it's fruits. I don't judge trees. I don't think you understand what it means to be transgender. It doesn't mean you don't like being your biological sex, it means you feel happy, comfortable, and right when you can express your true gender, which is not the gender you were assigned at birth. There is no such thing as true gender. Gender is a pattern of behaviors that societies conform with. Therefore, a transgender is somebody who feels most comfortable deviating from societal norms. How is this not an accurate statement? Why in the world would Bruce Jenner feel most comfortable dressing and behaving in a way that is typical of females. This pattern of behavior is called "feminine", and it certainly isn't innate since in other cultures, "feminine" is an entirely different pattern of behavior. To transition is the opposite of running away. Telling a transgender person that they "need to come to terms with their assigned gender at birth" is like telling a homosexual that they need to come to terms with being sexually attracted to the opposite sex. No it isn't. Sexuality is not a social construct. Sexuality is not a pattern of behavior. Sexual desire is innate in humans. Sexual desire for the opposite sex is innate in most humans. Sexual desire for the opposite sex is innate in few. These desires are not a learned social convention. I know this is difficult to understand for cisgender individuals as they live their whole lives in congruency. Conformity. There's a difference. I conform with what I see other males doing. If I grew up in old Ireland, I would wear plaid skirts, called kilts, however I live in contemporary America where plaid skirts are worn by schoolgirls. A transgender male, on the other hand, says no to plaid skirts in Ireland, and yes to them in America! Why?! The plaid skirt didn't change! The society changed! So clearly, there's nothing innate in a transgender about plaid skirts! Just because something seems weird to you doesn't make it a dysfunction of the mind. Maybe, just maybe, you haven't researched enough to really understand what is going on. No you...? Also, being transgender is not a mental illness. It is a biological/physiological state. Transgender is just like being born intersex (both male and female genitalia), or conjoined twins, or having a heart defect at birth. The genitalia you are born with and your physical heart functions are not social conventions! 2 4
utopian Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I have somewhat had this discussion before. I was planning to post my argument towards this when it was more well cited, but I also have another post I am mainly working on, so my incomplete post will have to do until then. I have concerns that their may be psychoactive drugs out there that may be able to induce these feelings of wanting to be the opposite gender, though I can't prove that. I only have circumstantial evidence for that idea so far. I think there is some kind of agenda that is interested in making men more feminine, because females demand and spend more money on products like makeup, clothes etc. Also, women seem to be more influenced by media, and the controversy surrounding transgender males, or perhaps unoperated men who simply go around dressing as a woman, allows them to go places like woman's bathrooms, and potentially protects them from being kept from other situations. There is some kind of infiltrative quality there. Specifically in the case of Bruce Jenner, I would not be surprised if it turned out one or all of those materialistic, manipulative poor excuse for human Kardashians are secretly putting hormones in Bruce's food. Now the thing about "transgender" females, is that they cannot self lubricate. This is because they never get an actual vagina: it is so far impossible to surgically graft a functioning vagina to a man who has his genitals removed. The truth about what is happening, is that a man, who "wants" to be a woman, has his penis surgically removed, and has the bodily material that is left shaped into a vagina. Although it is arguable that it may be possible to surgically graft a functioning penis to a male or female; http://www.bbc.com/n...health-31876219 The fact remains that a functioning vaginal system cannot be installed on a human body. Transgenderism is merely the surgical removal of the male genitals, with hormones and plastic surgery used to have a male body imitate that of a female. With all this, the "female" still has the bone structure of a man, prevalent bodily hair, and many of the fleshy compositions. But so what if any and all of this is true? Who does it hurt? Well, for one, the transgender in question: http://www.irishtime...icide-1.1613871 Studies show 80% of transgenders want to kill themselves, and 40% actually act on it. Now arguably, there is still a case to be made that no one should still care if these people kill themselves, but if there is indeed a chemical reason why more people are prone to transgenderism, it lends weight to the case that some part of the medical community may want to sneak these drugs into people, in order to profit from performing the very expensive transgender and plastic surgeries, as well as sell more hormone manipulating drugs. It means, the average person could be getting used as an ends for more money. The medical community is no stranger to manipulative information for profit. Just take a look at the well known story of Doctor Farid Fata, who told patients they had cancer just so he could collect on the money required to prescribe cancer treatment; http://www.clickonde...counts/28087698 Consider also that big industries, like big pharma and big media, have a collective interest in making money, and it makes sense that the media would like to spin a cover story about anti-transgenderism being hate motivated, so that big pharma can profit from surgery and pills. A media cover story like, say, Bruce Jenner's transgenderism. Also, there is the conflict of philosophies between the gay community and the transgender community. The philosophy of the gay community is that you should be happy with being yourself, happy and accepting of being born how you were. Fundamental to the gay philosophy is the idea that you cannot choose to be gay or straight, it is something you are born with. This is in conflict with the transgender philosophy, you see, because transgenderism supports the idea that YOU SHOULD NOT be happy with how you are, and that it is ok to want to be different with how you were born, as a male or female. That it is OK to try and be a woman, which would not actually be possible (and I argue, is still not possible) without human advances in the medical field, whereas homosexuality is naturally possible. If that kind of philosophy were to be applied to homosexuality, the equivalent would be "its ok to try and religiously convert yourself from homosexuality to heterosexuality". Either transgenderism follows a valid path of logic, or homosexuality does. I support homosexuality. Also, and this is where I can't find my source, but I remember reading an article several months back about a Johns Hopkins PhD publicly stating that transgenderism is a mental disorder. Johns Hopkins has since ceased performing the surgeries as it finally begins to delve into the research it should have been doing before wreaking havoc with people's lives when they do not know if these transitions are healthy. Finally, and this is probably the biggest one yet, your body knows definitively if you are supposed to be male or female. David Paige, Professor of biology at MIT, displays clearly in the following TED talk that, whether you feel like a woman or not, your being male or female is clearly defined in your DNA, if your 23rd chromosome is an "XY" pair. I have seen it argued that transgenders simply have a "feeling" that they should be one gender or the other. "Having a feeling" is not a legitimate reason to perform surgeries or take drugs. Indeed, many feelings can be induced BY taking drugs, which lends weight to the idea that whoever it is having these feelings, might be having drugs fed to them, or may be consuming drugs without knowing it. Think about that for a second. Think about the chemicals in our food and water, in our every day products. It is a well known fact that there is BPA in plastic bottles and lining tin cans, which is in fact a hormone. Who is to say it is impossible, that a small percentage of people may be having extreme reactions to these chemicals, resulting in feelings of being the wrong gender? Chemicals are so prevalent in our day to day lives, that ocean fish living near our shorelines can be studied and found to be full of chemicals that have gone through us just from our urine. Entire species of some of these fish are even being changed completely female and dying out because of the chemicals going through us. I doubt we will ever see any real research or data on the issue in the public eye, unfortunately. Corporations stand to make too much money from the brainwashed, chemically altered misled masses. Anyone actually admitting this is a giant fuck up would face, or stand against a corporation, with evidence for a massive class action law suit. But who cares right? Society will ignorantly claim its all hate rhetoric as it usually does, whether it is wrong or not. 9 2
labmath2 Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I disagree with the idea that you are assigned sex at birth. It is not assigned, but uncovered. It was already assigned the minute you developed a penis or vagina. Just because i am resistant to the transgender narative does not mean i think all sexual deviations from norm are equally suspicious. The nain poibt here to note is that due to something in the person's brain, they believe something that isn't. Now i dont deny that they truly believe their gender is wrong. What i take issue with is the narrative they truly are the opposite gender. This is tantamount to denying evidence of their senses, which is the essence of mental illness. We can correct thay anomaly by creating the narrative where we all play along, or we can try to help them cope. This is very different from having cancer or facial deformity which the individuals do not deny, but express a desire to get rid of. They can also express the desire to look like the opposite sex, but that is very diferent from believing they are the opposite sex. One is odd, the other is simply untrue. 1 1
fractional slacker Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Utopian, that is very comprehensive and detailed analysis. Mad props.My two cents FWIW.Nihilism>socialism>feminism>transgenderism. It's the social equivalent of "climate change."The 15th century had good, smart men spending millions of man hours debating Adam's belly button or non belly button. Our sentence is toiling about the virtue of sexual behavior, and the importance of gender theory. 1 1
MMX2010 Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 The most-liked comment from the RooshVForum on this very topic goes, "The one thing I have noticed about the transgender debate/issue/question, etc, is quite possibly one of my favorite left wing hypocrisy - embracing "traditional" femininity - but only for trans women.Bruce Jenner doesn't just want to be a woman, he wants to be a pretty girl. He got his hair all done up, wore a pretty swimsuit and is on the cover of a fashion magazine - and everyone approves. He wants to wear makeup and dresses - all markers of traditional femininity - and that's all good with liberals.Feminists usually rally against "traditional beauty standards" - makeup, fashion, slender figures, deeming them oppressive. But when a man becomes a woman - he doesn't become a neon haired SJW fat acceptance Lindy West freak - he wants to become a pretty girl." I have seen it argued that transgenders simply have a "feeling" that they should be one gender or the other. "Having a feeling" is not a legitimate reason to perform surgeries or take drugs. Indeed, many feelings can be induced BY taking drugs, which lends weight to the idea that whoever it is having these feelings, might be having drugs fed to them, or may be consuming drugs without knowing it. I'll go further and suggest that it's probable that merely having your transgender feelings supported by a large group of anonymous people is sufficient to encourage someone to develop stronger transgender feelings. 4 2
_LiveFree_ Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 *snip* OK, since you are attempting to really drive home the point that gender is a social construct... I found this short video to be informative. BTW, this guy agrees with you. Maybe the problem as you alluded to in your earlier post is our concept of gender and how it relates to biological sex, but also what transgender actually means. "Transgender" itself could be a poor term for the condition transfolk suffer from. Their brains are expecting to receive either testosterone or estrogen, yet receives the opposite resulting in psychological strain that is intense enough to push some transfolk to suicide. While hormone replacement therapy is enough for some transfolk, sometimes the psychological strain is not completely relieved until the body itself is also changed to match whatever the body would have developed into had it been receiving the correct hormone from birth (or a few months leading up to birth). To put it another way, what if you were not given a choice. You were forced to have your genitals operated on to be the opposite of what you have now. You are forced to go on HRT and live as the opposite sex. How would you feel about that? This is a good podcast http://www.trans-ponder.com/episodes/episode001.mp3 1 1
_LiveFree_ Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 I don't even know how to respond to someone who suggests that the transgender phenomenon is a recent development because of plastic. There have been non-binary people throughout history. There is even a commandment in the Old Testament Bible that says men can't dress like women and vice versa. If they wrote it down that means it was happening. I don't think they had hormone laden plastics back then. 1 1
_LiveFree_ Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 An article on transgenderism in ancient history. http://www.bilerico.com/2008/02/transgender_history_trans_expression_in.php http://www.transgendercare.com/guidance/what_is_gender.htm 1
labmath2 Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 Nathan can you please respond to my second comment? I would like to think i did not put effort in just to be ignored.
_LiveFree_ Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Nathan can you please respond to my second comment? I would like to think i did not put effort in just to be ignored.I'm sorry, which comment? Also, you're on a message board. You might not want to assume someone is ignoring you because they did't respond in a timeframe that suited you.
labmath2 Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 I disagree with the idea that you are assigned sex at birth. It is not assigned, but uncovered. It was already assigned the minute you developed a penis or vagina. Just because i am resistant to the transgender narative does not mean i think all sexual deviations from norm are equally suspicious. The nain poibt here to note is that due to something in the person's brain, they believe something that isn't. Now i dont deny that they truly believe their gender is wrong. What i take issue with is the narrative they truly are the opposite gender. This is tantamount to denying evidence of their senses, which is the essence of mental illness. We can correct thay anomaly by creating the narrative where we all play along, or we can try to help them cope. This is very different from having cancer or facial deformity which the individuals do not deny, but express a desire to get rid of. They can also express the desire to look like the opposite sex, but that is very diferent from believing they are the opposite sex. One is odd, the other is simply untrue.This comment.
_LiveFree_ Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 This comment. Got it, thank you. Your implied premise is incorrect: "Biological sex and gender are the same thing." Here is evidence to show that this premise is incorrect. http://www.simplypsychology.org/gender-biology.html http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf https://www.genderspectrum.org/quick-links/understanding-gender/ I think what you are referring to when you say "assigned sex at birth" is actually "assigned gender at birth". You are correct that at birth, the doctor looks at your naughty bits and sees either a vagina, penis, or some combination of both and labels you female, male, or intersex respectively. However, in doing so he is inadvertently labeling your gender, too. However, gender is not defined by what tools of the trade you possess.
MagnumPI Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/02/kris-jenner-to-bruce-why-get-married-and-have-kids-if-you-wanted-to-be-a-woman/ “Why would you want to be married and have kids if this is what you wanted since you were a little boy?" Exactly. When you lie to yourself, you necessarily lie to everyone around you, all the time. Fuck this guy for making me agree with a Kardashian, alone. Not even getting in to him being an evil parent.
labmath2 Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 From reading the articles, i am a bit confused as to what the gender spectrum is referring to and what transgender is all about. If gender is about what you look like and how you act, people already can act anyway they want and look anyway they want. If it were simply about social aspect, then i don't really see the big deal. However, that is not my understanding of the movement. If Bruce wants to change how he looks and change his name, no problem. If the movement is about stopping people from initiating force against such individuals, then i am all for it. To my knowledge, transgederism is about actually getting others to accept a different version of reality. He should not expect people to start saying he is female or using she. If people get to pick the pronoun they are called, then those pronouns lose their value, we might as well use one pronoun for all humans. If its about wanting people to treat you differently (since you now look more like the opposite sex), that is simply trying to manage people's perception of you. If this is what you mean by gender being a social construct, then the argument should be that people should not act differently to someone based on their gender. I am going to ask a few questions to try and clarify your position. Is the movement about removing what cultural expectations are associated with particular gender? Is it about getting someone born into one gender to be perceived as the other? If it is neither, how would you describe it in a clear and concise manner?
_LiveFree_ Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 From reading the articles, i am a bit confused as to what the gender spectrum is referring to and what transgender is all about. If gender is about what you look like and how you act, people already can act anyway they want and look anyway they want. If it were simply about social aspect, then i don't really see the big deal. However, that is not my understanding of the movement. If Bruce wants to change how he looks and change his name, no problem. If the movement is about stopping people from initiating force against such individuals, then i am all for it. You're doing great up to this point! You've almost identified that it's your understanding of what's happening that is the problem, but then you stop that line of thought. You put forth your own views instead of acknowledging you may not be as educated on transgender folk as you thought. Nor do you show curiosity in order to strengthen your understanding. The questions you ask only come after you've put forth your erroneous views and are asked in a way as to color the response you receive. To my knowledge, transgederism is about actually getting others to accept a different version of reality. He should not expect people to start saying he is female or using she. If people get to pick the pronoun they are called, then those pronouns lose their value, we might as well use one pronoun for all humans. If its about wanting people to treat you differently (since you now look more like the opposite sex), that is simply trying to manage people's perception of you. If this is what you mean by gender being a social construct, then the argument should be that people should not act differently to someone based on their gender. I am going to ask a few questions to try and clarify your position. Is the movement about removing what cultural expectations are associated with particular gender? Is it about getting someone born into one gender to be perceived as the other? If it is neither, how would you describe it in a clear and concise manner? One of the problems I'm seeing with the way you're perceiving this is that it's "a movement", which implies that every transgender person adheres to certain rules written down on a piece of paper titled "What Transgender People Want". This is not the case. Just as every transgender person is unique, so are their wants and needs. To treat any individual based on a perception of a group they might belong to is the definition of bigotry and antithetical to philosophy. "To my knowledge, transgenderism is about actually getting others to accept a different version of reality." - What does this even mean? How is this not inflammatory? What does "version of reality" mean? Philosophy is the study of knowledge itself. The beginning of wisdom is calling things by their proper names. There is no "version", there is only "what is actually the case"; and this is determined through empirical investigation and/or logical deduction. Scientific and philosophical progress is typically marked by throwing out what we thought we knew in favor of new theories supported by peer reviewed evidence. Scientific evidence is showing that gender identity, how an individual experiences their own gender, and biological sex are two separate phenomenons. In other words, our understanding of reality through scientific investigation, is changing in terms of gender, gender expression, and biological sex. So, since you made one sentence that is inflammatory, here is one back to you. You're interpretation of reality is incorrect, but instead of educating yourself and making the correction, you're blaming a transgender "movement" for your discomfort. This is not philosophy nor is it an exercise in self-knowledge. "He should not expect people to start saying he is female or using she." - Why? How would you feel if instead of addressing you as "labmath2" (which is what you are requesting people call you on this message board; I highly doubt that is your legal name or gender identifier) I called you "dogbiscuit69". This is a serious question, how would you feel about that? "If people get to pick the pronoun they are called, then those pronouns lose their value, we might as well use one pronoun for all humans." - This makes no logical sense whatsoever. And at this point, I'm going to assume you have done much of this philosophy stuff. People should absolutely be able to pick whatever pronoun they would like to be called so that others can properly identify them. Just as you have chosen a "handle" on a message board. If Caitlyn Jenner identifies as female, then she is doing the rest of us a favor by saying "Please use female pronouns." These pronouns do not lose their value, in fact, by using them correctly (e.g. Caitlyn Jenner is now a "she") they maintain their appropriate meaning. Pronouns are not always gender specific (e.g. this, it, that, I, me, we, us, you, they, them, these, those, etc.) We have a pronoun for addressing all humans, "Them" or "They". For individuals in regards to gender, it is entirely respectful and appropriate to ask if unsure what pronouns to use. It is disrespectful to that person to you pronouns with which only you are comfortable. Not only is it disrespectful, it is narcissistic. Empathy is the opposite of narcissism and it means relating to and understanding how another person feels. Empathy naturally occurs and proportionally increases with self-knowledge. "If its about wanting people to treat you differently (since you now look more like the opposite sex), that is simply trying to manage people's perception of you." - No. It's about being respected as a human being and not looked upon as a freak of nature. How would you treat these two ladies? As freaks of nature or with respect? Transgender folk just want to be treated with respect. They suffer not from psychological issues, but an actual physical medical condition (which due to lack of diagnosis and social stigma can lead to other psychological issues like severe depression). Maybe you do not have the training or knowledge to be able to understand that, but the thousands of doctors around the world who work in this field do. If you have any doubt about your understanding of this field, please do some reading on it. There are plenty of resources on the web. "If this is what you mean by gender being a social construct, then the argument should be that people should not act differently to someone based on their gender." - The whole line of thought leading up to this point does not follow. However, it is correct that gender should not change how you treat a person, whether they are male, female, transmale, transfemale, genderless, genderqueer, androgonous, bigender, genderfluid,... Is the movement about removing what cultural expectations are associated with particular gender? - no Is it about getting someone born into one gender to be perceived as the other? If it is neither, how would you describe it in a clear and concise manner? - no Just as there are no such thing as governments, there are so such things as movements. A "movement" is a conceptual idea in order to simplify the common desires of some folk. Only through politics do "movements" get sticky and hang around like immortal fleas. Transgender folk are being discriminated against by ignorant people who do not understand what gender really is and how it relates to biological sex. They see "biologically normal" men "mutilating" their bodies in order to "appear" female. What is really happening is that women born with a condition that makes their bodies develop as male finally have the medical technology at their disposal to change their bodies so that they can live a gender congruent life. This allows for greater happiness and a relieving of serious life threatening depression. I answered your questions. Please answer this one question.... How would you feel if you were forced to take hormones of the opposite sex that you are now, resulting in breast growth if you take estrogen or facial hair growth if taking testosterone, and have sex reassignment surgery to the opposite sex you are now and then live the rest of your life as the opposite sex but stay exactly who you are now mentally? How would you feel? (not what do you think about it, but how would that make you feel) 4 2
utopian Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 Thanks for the support fractional, and whoever was repping me. For those of you interested, I found that article about the distinguished Johns Hopkins psychiatrist explaining transgenderism is a mental disorder. The link is here; http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change Some excerpts; "...sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder." " It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh." Also in another related link, the same website puts forth a theory for the state supporting transgenderism to develop state power; http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/ben-shapiro/left-exploits-mental-illness-push-pc-agenda " If men and women are the same but for hormone therapy, implants and repeated surgical intervention, then all disparities between male and female can be attributed to societal biases. And those societally created "gender constructs" can be corrected only by massive government intervention, including re-education of children. Bruce Jenner is merely a tool in this quest for redefinition of gender." 2 1
labmath2 Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 I am sorry if my views appear to be erroneous, i am trying to discuss this the best way i know how, i am sorry if i sound very naive. I have tried looking up transgenderism, but the things i found were very different from the things you are now proposing, so maybe i did not do a very good job since i did what i was supposed to be looking for. Now on to the discussion. One of the problems I'm seeing with the way you're perceiving this is that it's "a movement", which implies that every transgender person adheres to certain rules written down on a piece of paper titled "What Transgender People Want". This is not the case. Just as every transgender person is unique, so are their wants and needs. To treat any individual based on a perception of a group they might belong to is the definition of bigotry and antithetical to philosophy. "To my knowledge, transgenderism is about actually getting others to accept a different version of reality." - What does this even mean? How is this not inflammatory? What does "version of reality" mean? Philosophy is the study of knowledge itself. The beginning of wisdom is calling things by their proper names. There is no "version", there is only "what is actually the case"; and this is determined through empirical investigation and/or logical deduction. Scientific and philosophical progress is typically marked by throwing out what we thought we knew in favor of new theories supported by peer reviewed evidence. Scientific evidence is showing that gender identity, how an individual experiences their own gender, and biological sex are two separate phenomenons. In other words, our understanding of reality through scientific investigation, is changing in terms of gender, gender expression, and biological sex. I I am calling it a movement out of convenience. It does not denote all persons involved are the same. I am merely pointing out they have a common goal defined by the "movement." When i talk about getting others to accept a different version of reality, its the part where the transgender individual rejects their biological sex. If gender is cultural, then there is no reason to attempt to change your biological sex. My confusion stems from the fact that gender is supposed to be cultural, but transgenders are actually trying to change their biology. If their problem is cultural, then there is no reason to change themselves. The moment you attempt to change your biology in an attempt to convince people that you really are the opposite gender, then are attempting to change reality. Even though you claim scientific evidence is showing that gender identity and biological sex are separate phenomenons, the very act of taking hormones and having sex change reassignment flies in the face of that. Let me restate my position, I have never thought people should be one thing because they were born into certain biological identities (color, sex, e.t.c), but i do think anyone who denies the fact that they are born into those identities, when evidence of the senses clearly contradicts what they feel, should be examined for psychological problems. We have never lived in an age where people are more free to express their identities how they want. They can love who they want, dress how they want, engage with who they want, even cross dress if they want. As for the gender pronoun, most third person singular are gender/sex specific. What happens when males can be called she/her and females he/him, then they stop telling u the sex of the person, which defeats the gender specificity. Feel free to call me dogbiscuit69, i don't mind, but it will get confusing. "If its about wanting people to treat you differently (since you now look more like the opposite sex), that is simply trying to manage people's perception of you." - No. It's about being respected as a human being and not looked upon as a freak of nature. How would you treat these two ladies? As freaks of nature or with respect? Transgender folk just want to be treated with respect. They suffer not from psychological issues, but an actual physical medical condition (which due to lack of diagnosis and social stigma can lead to other psychological issues like severe depression). Maybe you do not have the training or knowledge to be able to understand that, but the thousands of doctors around the world who work in this field do. If you have any doubt about your understanding of this field, please do some reading on it. There are plenty of resources on the web. "If this is what you mean by gender being a social construct, then the argument should be that people should not act differently to someone based on their gender." - The whole line of thought leading up to this point does not follow. However, it is correct that gender should not change how you treat a person, whether they are male, female, transmale, transfemale, genderless, genderqueer, androgonous, bigender, genderfluid,... The ladies are in fact a freak of nature (not in a derogatory way, but in a wow science way). I cannot presume to know what you mean by treat these ladies with respect, but treating them with respect does not mean pretending they are not particularly unique. I can be respectful while still maintaining its not a normal circumstance. In fact, to pretend they are normal should be an insult to them, since they know i can see them and they know they are far from normal. Just because they are not normal does not mean they should be harassed or bullied. Quick question, if they are playing a team game, should they count as two people or one? (anyways, i digress). Gender is just one of the many things that affect how you treat someone. I am not sure what you mean by gender here, but i am going with male or female. Even if you are metrosexual, being male still affects most aspects of your life. If i am interacting with an attractive female, my brain thinks good eggs. No matter how attractive a male is, my brain just thinks he looks really good, i should try to look more like him. I imagine gender is an even bigger part of a transgenders life, so you can imagine it will affect how you treat them. Just as there are no such thing as governments, there are so such things as movements. A "movement" is a conceptual idea in order to simplify the common desires of some folk. Only through politics do "movements" get sticky and hang around like immortal fleas. Transgender folk are being discriminated against by ignorant people who do not understand what gender really is and how it relates to biological sex. They see "biologically normal" men "mutilating" their bodies in order to "appear" female. What is really happening is that women born with a condition that makes their bodies develop as male finally have the medical technology at their disposal to change their bodies so that they can live a gender congruent life. This allows for greater happiness and a relieving of serious life threatening depression. I answered your questions. Please answer this one question.... How would you feel if you were forced to take hormones of the opposite sex that you are now, resulting in breast growth if you take estrogen or facial hair growth if taking testosterone, and have sex reassignment surgery to the opposite sex you are now and then live the rest of your life as the opposite sex but stay exactly who you are now mentally? How would you feel? (not what do you think about it, but how would that make you feel) The red part is why people think its a mental condition and why i think it is a denial of reality. Instead of acknowledging that you are uncomfortable with your biological identity, you construct a narrative where your bodies are wrong/accidents and hence needs to be corrected. This is not about culture, but a rejection of ones body. To reiterate, saying i like to look more like the opposite sex is very different from saying i was born into the wrong body. One is an odd preference, the other is simply untrue. To define the right body as the one you are comfortable in neglects the fact that your brain is as much a part of your body as everything else is. As for your last question, to be honest, i do not know how i would feel. I am not comfortable with everything about myself now, but i understand that i will not solve those problems by making external change since those problems are internal. I imagine it will feel the same way, except i would know its an external problem since i know i am taking hormones and had sex reassignment surgery. I was circumcised as a baby, and even thought i know a part of me was cut away, i have no great desire to get it back, and its not particularly uncomfortable for me so i imagine it will eventually feel like that. 2
Donnadogsoth Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 Question for the thread: What defines "female"? If there is that which defines female, what is it? If there is nothing that defines female, why are transgenderists so bothered about either becoming female, or escaping female?
shirgall Posted June 8, 2015 Posted June 8, 2015 Question for the thread: What defines "female"? If there is that which defines female, what is it? If there is nothing that defines female, why are transgenderists so bothered about either becoming female, or escaping female? Y-chromosome deficiency. 1
Carl Green Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 All transgendered people who choose to undergo hormone replacement therapy or sexual reassignment surgeries are required to participate in therapy/counseling. A quick google search would have revealed this fact. Why didn't you research this topic before posting about it? How do you know? You haven't made an argument here. You are merely asserting that it is the case without providing any reason or evidence. Remember your prior comment about "philosophical rigor" ? Where is your rigor? OP seems to have given up on this thread. Maybe s/he's away in counseling... Edit: I fully deserve every downvote for unempathetically replying to an unempathetic thread topic but ya know, ya just can't 'be the bigger man' every time I guess... 1 1
AncapFTW Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 I think the problem is that in society, perhaps with a bit of biology behind it, associates what we call "feminine" traits with the female body and "masculine" traits with the male body. Both body types, however, have degrees of both groups of traits. People who are more "feminine" therefore, feel like they should be a woman, and people who feel more "masculine" feel like they should be a man. I would argue that it's more a matter of society associating traits with biological gender and not simply realizing that there are shades of both traits in everyone.
MMX2010 Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 I think the problem is that in society, perhaps with a bit of biology behind it, associates what we call "feminine" traits with the female body and "masculine" traits with the male body. Both body types, however, have degrees of both groups of traits. People who are more "feminine" therefore, feel like they should be a woman, and people who feel more "masculine" feel like they should be a man. I would argue that it's more a matter of society associating traits with biological gender and not simply realizing that there are shades of both traits in everyone. The "degrees" argument is meaningless, because everyone has degrees of criminality, degrees of medical expertise, degrees of aggressive behavior, and degrees of philosophical integrity. But transgender only want to acknowledge the degrees of gender traits, without acknowledging the degrees of every other trait. Hilariously, many people do indeed want to acknowledge the degrees of many other traits. So you have transabled people - (who recognize that everyone has degrees of physical handicap by insisting that they're handicapped even though they could walk) - transracial people (not kidding, google, "transnigga") - and transhumans - (again, not kidding, google "otherkin"). 3
AncapFTW Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 The "degrees" argument is meaningless, because everyone has degrees of criminality, degrees of medical expertise, degrees of aggressive behavior, and degrees of philosophical integrity. But transgender only want to acknowledge the degrees of gender traits, without acknowledging the degrees of every other trait. Hilariously, many people do indeed want to acknowledge the degrees of many other traits. So you have transabled people - (who recognize that everyone has degrees of physical handicap by insisting that they're handicapped even though they could walk) - transracial people (not kidding, google, "transnigga") - and transhumans - (again, not kidding, google "otherkin"). So, because people have degrees of many things, you shouldn't acknowledge the degrees of this? For examples, you give people who want pity for self-inflicted injuries (an actual problem), people who feel more attached to another culture, and people who feel different in concert with other members of a subculture, and create some sort of lore about it. Interesting that in other threads you call people anti-libertarian for having a problem with possibly harmful behaviors, yet you have a problem with behaviors that don't hurt anyone but the people who do them.
_LiveFree_ Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 I am sorry if my views appear to be erroneous, i am trying to discuss this the best way i know how, i am sorry if i sound very naive. I have tried looking up transgenderism, but the things i found were very different from the things you are now proposing, so maybe i did not do a very good job since i did what i was supposed to be looking for. Now on to the discussion. I've tried looking up transgenderism, too. I guess you're right, you did not do a very good job. I I am calling it a movement out of convenience. It does not denote all persons involved are the same. I am merely pointing out they have a common goal defined by the "movement." Wait,...what? You're using an incorrect label out of convenience, recognize it's incorrect, but are going to continue to use it anyway? ..... what? What common goal are you referring to? I do not agree that there is a movement of any kind. Why do you insist on calling it that? When i talk about getting others to accept a different version of reality, its the part where the transgender individual rejects their biological sex. If gender is cultural, then there is no reason to attempt to change your biological sex. My confusion stems from the fact that gender is supposed to be cultural, but transgenders are actually trying to change their biology. If their problem is cultural, then there is no reason to change themselves. The moment you attempt to change your biology in an attempt to convince people that you really are the opposite gender, then are attempting to change reality. Even though you claim scientific evidence is showing that gender identity and biological sex are separate phenomenons, the very act of taking hormones and having sex change reassignment flies in the face of that. Let me restate my position, I have never thought people should be one thing because they were born into certain biological identities (color, sex, e.t.c), but i do think anyone who denies the fact that they are born into those identities, when evidence of the senses clearly contradicts what they feel, should be examined for psychological problems. We have never lived in an age where people are more free to express their identities how they want. They can love who they want, dress how they want, engage with who they want, even cross dress if they want. Wow, you really haven't done good research at all. http://www.transstudent.org/transvisibility That took all of 30 seconds. Here is some more... http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/ http://tgeu.org/tmm/ http://www.glaad.org/blog/violence-against-transgender-people-and-people-color-disproportionately-high-lgbtqh-murder-rate http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/27/trans-murder-rates_n_3824273.html http://planettransgender.com/trans-people-ban-together-and-ask-can-you-stop-killing-us-for-one-week/ From the PlanetTransgender.com article... "A trans woman is slain every 29 hours yet we make up less than 1% of the world’s population. " Up to 5 minutes of research. We'll call it 10 just to be sure. And to have to define terms again, "Gender Expression" may be cultural in some respects for sure. "Gender Identity" is biological in that it's how the brain is wired up. You continue to be confused due to your lack of honest research (please site me a source you've researched), and your ignorance of the terms themselves we are dealing with. It wouldn't be nearly as irritating as it has been for me if you would simply ask questions instead of putting forth conclusions. Real empathy demands curiosity, and it's amazing the degree to which those who are saying transgender folk are psychologically unstable lack curiosity about it all. They are full of conclusions. What do you mean "attempting to change reality". People change reality all the time. When you make a post on this forum, you're changing reality. You've altered reality in some way. So i'm not sure what you mean by this. "Even though you claim scientific evidence is showing that gender identity and biological sex are separate phenomenons, the very act of taking hormones and having sex change reassignment flies in the face of that." - How? You've just made an assertion with no logical argument or evidence. They can do anything they want! As you say....BUT GOD HELP THEM IF THEY WANT TO BE A DIFFERENT SEX! They can't do that! They are mentally ill! Stop them!! As for the gender pronoun, most third person singular are gender/sex specific. What happens when males can be called she/her and females he/him, then they stop telling u the sex of the person, which defeats the gender specificity. Feel free to call me dogbiscuit69, i don't mind, but it will get confusing. The ladies are in fact a freak of nature (not in a derogatory way, but in a wow science way). I cannot presume to know what you mean by treat these ladies with respect, but treating them with respect does not mean pretending they are not particularly unique. I can be respectful while still maintaining its not a normal circumstance. In fact, to pretend they are normal should be an insult to them, since they know i can see them and they know they are far from normal. Just because they are not normal does not mean they should be harassed or bullied. Quick question, if they are playing a team game, should they count as two people or one? (anyways, i digress). Gender is just one of the many things that affect how you treat someone. I am not sure what you mean by gender here, but i am going with male or female. Even if you are metrosexual, being male still affects most aspects of your life. If i am interacting with an attractive female, my brain thinks good eggs. No matter how attractive a male is, my brain just thinks he looks really good, i should try to look more like him. I imagine gender is an even bigger part of a transgenders life, so you can imagine it will affect how you treat them. The red part is why people think its a mental condition and why i think it is a denial of reality. Instead of acknowledging that you are uncomfortable with your biological identity, you construct a narrative where your bodies are wrong/accidents and hence needs to be corrected. This is not about culture, but a rejection of ones body. To reiterate, saying i like to look more like the opposite sex is very different from saying i was born into the wrong body. One is an odd preference, the other is simply untrue. To define the right body as the one you are comfortable in neglects the fact that your brain is as much a part of your body as everything else is. As for your last question, to be honest, i do not know how i would feel. I am not comfortable with everything about myself now, but i understand that i will not solve those problems by making external change since those problems are internal. I imagine it will feel the same way, except i would know its an external problem since i know i am taking hormones and had sex reassignment surgery. I was circumcised as a baby, and even thought i know a part of me was cut away, i have no great desire to get it back, and its not particularly uncomfortable for me so i imagine it will eventually feel like that. Ya know, at this point, engaging you on this topic just doesn't feel worth my time anymore. You're not doing good research. You don't know how to make a logical argument. I seriously doubt you take philosophy or self-knowledge seriously. If I'm wrong about you please PLEASE show me how I'm wrong. I care very much about being right, not about looking like I'm right. And that means I'm open to correction. Are you?
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