Bruce Jenner Needs Counselling, Not Support

[MMX2010]

 

Interesting that in other threads you call people anti-libertarian for having a problem with possibly harmful behaviors, yet you have a problem with behaviors that don't hurt anyone but the people who do them.

 

My argument here is a little subtle, so bear with me. 

 

When labmath2 calls transgenderism a "movement", he's referring to the combination of movies depicting transgender in a positive way, media shaming people who think transgender is stupid as "transphobic", and people arguing that "Transgender doesn't harm anyone".  Those are political goals to normalize transgender, as if, "It's always been around..." is a proper argument for normalizing anything. 

 

Back in the day, it used to be that transgendered individuals could "do their thing", and everyone else could either ignore them, point and laugh at them, overtly feel disgusted by them, or actively support them.  And nobody really cared what those non-transgender individuals did, so long as transgender had its own space outside of normal, respectable society. 

 

I've no beef with transgender individuals, but I've massive beef with the normalization of transgender behavior - (to the point where children as young as eight are allowed to identify as transgender and get hormonal treatment). 

 

=============

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sex-change-treatment-for-kids-on-the-rise/

 

 

 

A small but growing number of teens and even younger children who think they were born the wrong sex are getting support from parents and from doctors who give them sex-changing treatments, according to reports in the medical journal Pediatrics.

 

It's an issue that raises ethical questions, and some experts urge caution in treating children with puberty-blocking drugs and hormones.

 

An 8-year-old second-grader in Los Angeles is a typical patient. Born a girl, the child announced at 18 months, "I a boy" and has stuck with that belief. The family was shocked but now refers to the child as a boy and is watching for the first signs of puberty to begin treatment, his mother told The Associated Press.

 

 

 

Guidelines from the Endocrine Society endorse transgender hormone treatment but say it should not be given before puberty begins. At that point, the guidelines recommend puberty-blocking drugs until age 16, then lifelong sex-changing hormones with monitoring for potential health risks. Mental health professionals should be involved in the process, the guidelines say. The group's members are doctors who treat hormonal conditions.

 

Those guidelines, along with YouTube videos by sex-changing teens and other media attention, have helped raise awareness about treatment and led more families to seek help, Spack said.

 

His report details a fourfold increase in patients at the Boston hospital. His Gender Management Service clinic, which opened at the hospital in 2007, averages about 19 patients each year, compared with about four per year treated for gender issues at the hospital in the late 1990s.

 

The report details 97 girls and boys treated between 1998 and 2010; the youngest was 4 years old. Kids that young and their families get psychological counseling and are monitored until the first signs of puberty emerge, usually around age 11 or 12. Then children are given puberty-blocking drugs, in monthly $1,000 injections or implants imbedded in the arm.

 

In another Pediatrics report, a Texas doctor says he's also provided sex-changing treatment to an increasing number of children; so has a clinic at Children's Hospital Los Angeles where the 8-year-old is a patient.

 

The drugs used by the clinics are approved for delaying puberty in kids who start maturing too soon. The drugs' effects are reversible, and Spack said they've caused no complications in his patients. The idea is to give these children time to mature emotionally and make sure they want to proceed with a permanent sex change. Only 1 of the 97 opted out of permanent treatment, Spack said.

[Funkmaster_A]

If a woman gets $100,000 surgery to look like Barbie and takes drugs to change her appearance, then she probably has some issues that need worked out.  If a man gets $100,000 surgery to look like Barbie and takes drugs to change his appearance, then he's perfectly fine!

[Carl Green]

Y-chromosome deficiency.

 

Note: I'm not directing this at you, shirgall, just pulling it in for context.

 

Defining feminine and masculine is a bit trickier, and seems to be the other part of the equation here that's being left out as a lot of people are just pointing at the biology and saying "see, that's a man because he has a penis so he should think/act like a man (masculine) and if he doesn't he needs counseling, not support"

 

Also, continuing to call someone something they don't want to be called any more isn't exactly empathetic either, regardless of any of the rest of this.

[MMX2010]

Note: I'm not directing this at you, shirgall, just pulling it in for context.

 

Defining feminine and masculine is a bit trickier, and seems to be the other part of the equation here that's being left out as a lot of people are just pointing at the biology and saying "see, that's a man because he has a penis so he should think/act like a man (masculine) and if he doesn't he needs counseling, not support"

 

Pointing at biology is exactly like pointing at the moon and saying, "Do you see that large, bright circular object in an otherwise dark sky?"  And when the transgenders and their supporters say, "No?  What object are you talking about?", we reply, "You can't see the object?  There must be something wrong with your vision." 

 

 

 

 

Also, continuing to call someone something they don't want to be called any more isn't exactly empathetic either, regardless of any of the rest of this.

 

Calling someone non-empathetic because they don't want to acknowledge lies-as-truth is a perversion of philosophy.  It also places empathy and "mystical revelations of feelings" above truth, which is why it's a perversion of philosophy. 

[AncapFTW]

Pointing at biology is exactly like pointing at the moon and saying, "Do you see that large, bright circular object in an otherwise dark sky?"  And when the transgenders and their supporters say, "No?  What object are you talking about?", we reply, "You can't see the object?  There must be something wrong with your vision."

Wow.  Terrible analogy, tough it helps us understand your view.

 

A better analogy would be you pointing at the object, saying it's the moon, and them saying "well, no, I think that's Mars, or maybe Venus, as it doesn't fit the definition of the moon perfectly."

 

If they identify more with Group B when you think they should identify with Group A, and want to fully become a member of that group B, why do you care?  What makes a person insane for not identifying with Group A?

 

 

Calling someone non-empathetic because they don't want to acknowledge lies-as-truth is a perversion of philosophy.  It also places empathy and "mystical revelations of feelings" above truth, which is why it's a perversion of philosophy. 

It's not about lies being portrayed as truth, it's about them, as a shade of green, wanting to be thought of as a shade of yellow while you see them as a shade of blue.  True, you can point out that they started as blue, and had yellow added, but that's not the point.

 

Where people are concerned feelings are important.  They don't deny that they are biologically a certain gender, only that they are mentally and personality-wise that gender.  As long as we use words to mean such a wide range of things, there will always be fuzzy areas where the words don't fit perfectly.

[shirgall]

Note: I'm not directing this at you, shirgall, just pulling it in for context.

 

Defining feminine and masculine is a bit trickier, and seems to be the other part of the equation here that's being left out as a lot of people are just pointing at the biology and saying "see, that's a man because he has a penis so he should think/act like a man (masculine) and if he doesn't he needs counseling, not support"

 

Also, continuing to call someone something they don't want to be called any more isn't exactly empathetic either, regardless of any of the rest of this.

 

Indeed, I was answering the "what is female" question in an objective, if somewhat snarky, way. Your question on "what is feminine" is a question about behavior, and that's going to be subjective, of course.

[Donnadogsoth]

Indeed, I was answering the "what is female" question in an objective, if somewhat snarky, way. Your question on "what is feminine" is a question about behavior, and that's going to be subjective, of course.

 

My point in asking it, shirgall, was to ask why transgender people so feel the need to change gender, if there is no rock-solid definition of "female" or "male" to judge by?  They appear to be stereotypical in their gender swap (girls with glitter, women with heels and dresses, men with tattoos, etc.)

 

Suppose I, as a male, decided I was a woman, but altered nothing about my appearance, anatomy, speech, or behaviour.  Do I count as a woman, then?  Are there transgender people like this?  At what point does it blend into being an absurdity?

[shirgall]

My point in asking it, shirgall, was to ask why transgender people so feel the need to change gender, if there is no rock-solid definition of "female" or "male" to judge by?  They appear to be stereotypical in their gender swap (girls with glitter, women with heels and dresses, men with tattoos, etc.)

 

Suppose I, as a male, decided I was a woman, but altered nothing about my appearance, anatomy, speech, or behaviour.  Do I count as a woman, then?  Are there transgender people like this?  At what point does it blend into being an absurdity?

 

Adam Curry touched on this in a recent No Agenda podcast. He insisted that his co-host (John C. Dvorak) refer to him as "she" from that point onward, with no other changes apparent. John replied that he doesn't usually refer to him, but if he does in the future he'll be sure to call him "it".

[labmath2]

Nathan, it seems we are talking past each other here, so it will probably not do much good to continue the discussion.

[fractional slacker]

Take a look down the rabbit hole of LBGTQRSTU&V and its closest ally the gender identity folk, who BTW have a weird habit of telling you about their use of pronouns. SMH It's only 6 minutes long. If in hurry, the good part is between 2:10 and 4:00.

 

[jpahmad]

what if I thought I was a dinosaur and demanded to be regarded as one?

[Alice Amell]

Full Disclosure: I am a transwoman, identify as female, prefer female pronouns, and am undergoing hormone replacement therapy.

 

I have concerns that their may be psychoactive drugs out there that may be able to induce these feelings of wanting to be the opposite gender, though I can't prove that. I only have circumstantial evidence for that idea so far. I think there is some kind of agenda that is interested in making men more feminine, because females demand and spend more money on products like makeup, clothes etc. Also, women seem to be more influenced by media, and the controversy surrounding transgender males, or perhaps unoperated men who simply go around dressing as a woman, allows them to go places like woman's bathrooms, and potentially protects them from being kept from other situations. There is some kind of infiltrative quality there. Specifically in the case of Bruce Jenner, I would not be surprised if it turned out one or all of those materialistic, manipulative poor excuse for human Kardashians are secretly putting hormones in Bruce's food.

 

Now the thing about "transgender" females, is that they cannot self lubricate. This is because they never get an actual vagina: it is so far impossible to surgically graft a functioning vagina to a man who has his genitals removed. The truth about what is happening, is that a man, who "wants" to be a woman, has his penis surgically removed, and has the bodily material that is left shaped into a vagina. Although it is arguable that it may be possible to surgically graft a functioning penis to a male or female;

http://www.irishtime...icide-1.1613871

 

Studies show 80% of transgenders want to kill themselves, and 40% actually act on it. Now arguably, there is still a case to be made that no one should still care if these people kill themselves, but if there is indeed a chemical reason why more people are prone to transgenderism, it lends weight to the case that some part of the medical community may want to sneak these drugs into people, in order to profit from performing the very expensive transgender and plastic surgeries, as well as sell more hormone manipulating drugs. It means, the average person could be getting used as an ends for more money.

 

The medical community is no stranger to manipulative information for profit. Just take a look at the well known story of Doctor Farid Fata, who told patients they had cancer just so he could collect on the money required to prescribe cancer treatment;

 

http://www.clickonde...counts/28087698

 

Consider also that big industries, like big pharma and big media, have a collective interest in making money, and it makes sense that the media would like to spin a cover story about anti-transgenderism being hate motivated, so that big pharma can profit from surgery and pills. A media cover story like, say, Bruce Jenner's transgenderism.

 

Also, there is the conflict of philosophies between the gay community and the transgender community. The philosophy of the gay community is that you should be happy with being yourself, happy and accepting of being born how you were. Fundamental to the gay philosophy is the idea that you cannot choose to be gay or straight, it is something you are born with.

 

This is in conflict with the transgender philosophy, you see, because transgenderism supports the idea that YOU SHOULD NOT be happy with how you are, and that it is ok to want to be different with how you were born, as a male or female. That it is OK to try and be a woman, which would not actually be possible (and I argue, is still not possible) without human advances in the medical field, whereas homosexuality is naturally possible. If that kind of philosophy were to be applied to homosexuality, the equivalent would be "its ok to try and religiously convert yourself from homosexuality to heterosexuality". Either transgenderism follows a valid path of logic, or homosexuality does. I support homosexuality. 

 

Finally, and this is probably the biggest one yet, your body knows definitively if you are supposed to be male or female.

David Paige, Professor of biology at MIT, displays clearly in the following TED talk that, whether you feel like a woman or not, your being male or female is clearly defined in your DNA, if your 23rd chromosome is an "XY" pair.

 

 

I have seen it argued that transgenders simply have a "feeling" that they should be one gender or the other. "Having a feeling" is not a legitimate reason to perform surgeries or take drugs. Indeed, many feelings can be induced BY taking drugs, which lends weight to the idea that whoever it is having these feelings, might be having drugs fed to them, or may be consuming drugs without knowing it. 

 

Think about that for a second. Think about the chemicals in our food and water, in our every day products. It is a well known fact that there is BPA in plastic bottles and lining tin cans, which is in fact a hormone. Who is to say it is impossible, that a small percentage of people may be having extreme reactions to these chemicals, resulting in feelings of being the wrong gender? Chemicals are so prevalent in our day to day lives, that ocean fish living near our shorelines can be studied and found to be full of chemicals that have gone through us just from our urine. Entire species of some of these fish are even being changed completely female and dying out because of the chemicals going through us.

 

I doubt we will ever see any real research or data on the issue in the public eye, unfortunately. Corporations stand to make too much money from the brainwashed, chemically altered misled masses. Anyone actually admitting this is a giant fuck up would face, or stand against a corporation, with evidence for a massive class action law suit. 

 

But who cares right? Society will ignorantly claim its all hate rhetoric as it usually does, whether it is wrong or not.

 

Is there an agenda to make women more masculine? Transmen exist as well even if they aren't a well represented in media. That would go against the whole turning men into women to make money idea. Would it not be a huge investment to poison our food and water and market trans-positive stuff (of which I honestly haven't seen too much - most transwomen I see in media are mocked) just to get more make-up sales? While also driving away customers (transmen)? Transwomen are an extreme minority and that would, to me, seem like a small return on investment.

 

Perhaps Caitlyn Jenner is vain but is that a problem of transgender people or the female gender in general? 

 

The penis is not removed in surgery; it is inverted and used to create a vagina via vaginoplasty. However, the testicles are removed.

 

High suicide rates are a huge problem in the transgender community. It is not to me a sign of pharmaceutical conspiracy- I'm not sure how you made that leap. Assuming there is a maliciously induced chemical causing people to identify as another gender, I think the burden of proof is on you to give evidence for that. It is certainly not the case that it would make more money from the "average person." Transgender people are not average people; they are a minority. I suspect the high suicide rates are because many (dare I say most?) people are unaccepting of transpeople. Many are disowned by their parents, and become homeless. Or become victims of violence. It is so socially unacceptable, many turn to suicide. Not only for that reason, but so much comes with it as well: having to hide it from people for so long, being rejected by some people (perhaps your family) when you come out, experiencing body dysphoria, knowing that you can't, as you said, change your sex. I will never give birth. I won't have two X chromosomes. And that sucks, but I have to live with it.

 

I have no idea where you go making these assertions with nothing but a reference about one doctor who exploited his patients. Taken from your own source:

 

""It is the most egregious case of health care fraud I have ever seen," said U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade. "I think what makes this case different is this is not just a case of a doctor billing Medicare for extra treatments or treatments that weren't rendered in order to make a profit. This was a case of a doctor exploiting patients, using them as commodities in order to make money."

 

He pleaded guilty to 16 counts, and that is the most egregious case, according to this attorney? I don't see how this is evidence that big pharma AND big media are therefore conspiring to trick people into accepting a very socially unacceptable and life-changing diagnosis. Yes, they profit from pills. What is that evidence of? The fact that they sell them, nothing more. And I don't follow your logic - the media intends to use Caitlyn Jenner to show to the world that others hate transgender people? Is that what you said? And that is supposed to make people more likely to buy pills?

 

There is no contradiction between gay and transgender acceptance - both are an affirmation of unchanging characteristics of a person. It is consistent to say you cannot change your sexuality, nor your gender/sex identification, and that identity must be affirmed. In the case of transgender people, they may change their body, which CAN change, unlike their identification. Changing my body is a means to reduce bodily dysphoria - a feeling that my body is wrong, an incongruence between how I feel I should be and how I know I am. I can not speak for anyone else, but for me, I do not like my sex. I acknowledge I am biologically male. I do not deny that. But I also don't like it. I wish I had been born as the female sex. I struggle a lot to deal with my body, and taking hormones helps to change my body in alignment with how I feel, how I've always felt.

 

Actually no, not everyone's body knows definitively if they are male or female because there is not just a binary. Intersex people exist as well, with chromosomes such as XXY or XXX. Gender identity is separate, as well. People may identify more with one gender than another, even if that gender is not associated with their sex.

 

Could I just say, "having a feeling of being straight isn't enough to have sex with a woman (if you're a man) and have a baby." I'm not sure how else to respond to such an argument. What IS a legitimate reason to take drugs? What do you mean by legitimate? Are my feelings illegitimate? Or is it wrong to get surgery or take drugs due to feelings?

 

It is an unfounded claim to suggest that chemicals implanted in food and drink produce feelings of transgenderism. You say we may never see real research, but I'm not sure you cited much to support your belief that transgender people are all being duped by some corporation that wants money. Do you have it elsewhere? May I see it? If true this is important to me and I'm willing to entertain such a notion even if I am off-put by it.

 

The most-liked comment from the RooshVForum on this very topic goes, "The one thing I have noticed about the transgender debate/issue/question, etc, is quite possibly one of my favorite left wing hypocrisy - embracing "traditional" femininity - but only for trans women.

Bruce Jenner doesn't just want to be a woman, he wants to be a pretty girl. He got his hair all done up, wore a pretty swimsuit and is on the cover of a fashion magazine - and everyone approves. He wants to wear makeup and dresses - all markers of traditional femininity - and that's all good with liberals.

Feminists usually rally against "traditional beauty standards" - makeup, fashion, slender figures, deeming them oppressive. But when a man becomes a woman - he doesn't become a neon haired SJW fat acceptance Lindy West freak - he wants to become a pretty girl."
 

 

 

I'll go further and suggest that it's probable that merely having your transgender feelings supported by a large group of anonymous people is sufficient to encourage someone to develop stronger transgender feelings. 

I agree on Feminist hypocrisy there. And perhaps I agree with your last statement. If I didn't realize there was a term for what I was feeling, and that it was a legitimate thing and there was treatment for it (hormones), then I would probably have suppressed my feelings. However I do not think, if you implied this, that the existence of pro-transpeople creates more transpeople. It is not something to be taken lightly. Transitioning is a life-changing decision, and to be faced with a lot of opposition and social scrutiny. Of course when it's more socially acceptable, more people are comfortable coming out. But it is by no means easy or beneficial to be trans, in my opinion.

 

I disagree with the idea that you are assigned sex at birth. It is not assigned, but uncovered. It was already assigned the minute you developed a penis or vagina. Just because i am resistant to the transgender narative does not mean i think all sexual deviations from norm are equally suspicious. The nain poibt here to note is that due to something in the person's brain, they believe something that isn't. Now i dont deny that they truly believe their gender is wrong. What i take issue with is the narrative they truly are the opposite gender. This is tantamount to denying evidence of their senses, which is the essence of mental illness. We can correct thay anomaly by creating the narrative where we all play along, or we can try to help them cope. This is very different from having cancer or facial deformity which the individuals do not deny, but express a desire to get rid of. They can also express the desire to look like the opposite sex, but that is very diferent from believing they are the opposite sex. One is odd, the other is simply untrue.

You are conflating sex and gender. I was discovered to be biologically male, XY chromosomes, at birth. I do not deny that is what I am. But gender is another thing entirely, the behaviors and attributes usually associated with someone's sex. Men in suits, women in dresses, etc. That is gender. I do not believe I am the opposite sex. But I wish I was. I identify more with the opposite sex as well as the female gender. I like female clothes, pink cute stuff (gender), and I want breasts, a vagina (sex) etc. I feel dysphoria with my body and I want to change (and am changing) it so it is in congruence with my feelings.

 

Thanks for the support fractional, and whoever was repping me. 

 

For those of you interested, I found that article about the distinguished Johns Hopkins psychiatrist explaining transgenderism is a mental disorder. The link is here;

 

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

 

Some excerpts;

 

"...sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder."

 

" It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh."

 

 

Also in another related link, the same website puts forth a theory for the state supporting transgenderism to develop state power;

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/ben-shapiro/left-exploits-mental-illness-push-pc-agenda

 

" If men and women are the same but for hormone therapy, implants and repeated surgical intervention, then all disparities between male and female can be attributed to societal biases. And those societally created "gender constructs" can be corrected only by massive government intervention, including re-education of children. Bruce Jenner is merely a tool in this quest for redefinition of gender."

"He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people. Dr. McHugh further noted studies from Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic of children who had expressed transgender feelings but for whom, over time, 70%-80% “spontaneously lost those feelings.”"

 

I would like to see the suicide rate of transgender people pre-op; I'm not sure what he thinks his suicide rate comparison proves. I haven't read his study about children so I want to look into that more before I comment on it, but I would want to look at the age of those children and how long they tracked them.

 

"The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken – it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.”

 

I am not sure how my idea (or feelings, or identity) is mistaken - I feel this way BECAUSE it does not correspond with physical reality. It leads to grim outcomes because it often is grim and transpeople face a lot of discrimination. It is not similar to anorexia as he says - I do not deny reality, I am upset because I dislike reality, precise because I do recognize reality, unlike an anorexic person who deludes themself on their own weight.

 

If a woman gets $100,000 surgery to look like Barbie and takes drugs to change her appearance, then she probably has some issues that need worked out.  If a man gets $100,000 surgery to look like Barbie and takes drugs to change his appearance, then he's perfectly fine!

I am not sure if you are trolling or not. Few people are getting surgery to look like Barbie. They just get surgery to look more feminine, to reduce dysphoria and to change their body so it is more aligned with how they identify. Which is very different from an obsession with beauty.

[GuzzyBone]

Alice, thank you for giving us your personal inside perspective. It is definitely important when discussing a subject that we are not necessarily directly emotionally invested in, to always hear from people who are. I think the importance of this often goes overlooked.

However, I think the core of this issue is not being rebutted by one side. I see it mentioned over and over, but it is simply being ignored.

Let's take for example:

An African American woman who identifies herself as Caucasian. This is something that actually happens.

If a "black" person were to engage in plastic surgery (for white skin), drugs (for white skin) and other physical enhancements (for straight hair) to become a "white" person. What is going on here, and why should it be viewed as "wrong".

Well let me state my case plainly, and please do not simply ignore it and get into a detailed conflation of what is "black" and what is "white".

Many black people (women mostly) will straighten their hair and stylize it to look as straight and white as possible. When young black women see that the most successful black women have straightened "white people" hair (Oprah, Condileeza Rice, Michelle Obama) then it is a reasonable assumption that a degree of "assimilation to white culture" will gain them success.

No one frowns upon this practice. No one tries to intervene. No one tries to explain to them that curly African hair can be absolutely gorgeous on black women. No one tries to appeal to them to stop what they are doing. In fact, most people just simply ignore it.

In my personal opinion, I think they are denying their beautiful biology for cultural ("me plus" syndrome) acceptance and perceived advantage.

Regardless, in this example NO ONE IS BEING HURT. No violence is involved.

But if the same black woman were to take this a step further and obsessively use skin whitening drugs (which can upset biology and cause any number of damaging side effects) and use plastic surgery (bodily mutilation) to change her nose or lips, then we have violence being committed onto oneself.

It may seem abundantly obvious that cultural and psychological factors are what is really at play. It is not very likely that her biology is saying "You're white!!! Be that white woman you've always dreamed of being!!!"... yet when it comes to Transgender we have an emotional bias that can prevent us from seeing this.

The mutilation (violence/damage) or self-inflicted punishment through drugs, is a much more serious issue than the clothes you wear or the straightening of your hair.

When this kind of behavior is spotted in another person, the empathetic response is typically to intervene by appealing to the person to seek help or actually try and help them to accept who they are, without the need for inflicting self-violence and abusing their physical body.

The irrational, comfortable, easy and selfish response is to encourage their self-destructive behavior. It is much harder to approach a person who is inflicting or considering self-violence and to help convince them that it is dangerous.

It is well known that this kind of self-violence and these feelings of insecurity can escalate rapidly and become an addiction. It is not hard to find examples of plastic surgery addiction, anorexia, and body mod addictions, and to see where they lead.

Michael Jackson had an addiction to self-inflicted abuse. He may have had Vitiligo, but his response to this disease caused him to develop a neurosis that destroyed his self-esteem and escalated his self-hatred. He talked about his self-hatred rather candidly, while vehemently denying his addiction to self-mutilation and assimilation to the "white"-image.

Now you could argue that ALL surgery or even hair straightening is "damage" to the body and therefore self-abuse, but we have to remember that everything is relative and found in degrees... Sex change surgery is not a surgery performed to "save your life" in the now, it is a cosmetic ritualistic surgery. It is the belief that "looking different" will somehow change things, and you are willing to risk permanent injury, death, and deformity to achieve something that can be addressed through self-knowledge and loving oneself for who you already ARE.

Sex change surgery is viewed by many to be the extreme manifestation of an escalating addiction to self-abuse.

The right thing to do is to empathize, sympathesize, and encourage self-knowledge of why you would be so desperate to commit violence upon yourself.
Encouraging self-violence and telling the victim to wear the violence as a badge of pride is destructive to everyone.

 

[shirgall]

what if I thought I was a dinosaur and demanded to be regarded as one?

 

As the risk of drawing a flame war, the real question is what distinguishes the behavior from borderline personality disorder. Is it that this particular requirement that a boundary be crossed is forced to be socially acceptable? If you insist on being referred to as JPasaurus (Rex), and that you be allowed to ravage raw warm-blooded food in a restaurant is not yet socially acceptable, by law, but if enough trannosaurs gather enough lobbying resources I'm sure we'll need a mammalian buffet added to the local cafeteria.

 

Most of us deal with our eating quirks in quiet desperate silence.

[labmath2]

Alice, thank you for giving us your personal inside perspective. It is definitely important when discussing a subject that we are not necessarily directly emotionally invested in, to always hear from people who are. I think the importance of this often goes overlooked.

 

However, I think the core of this issue is not being rebutted by one side. I see it mentioned over and over, but it is simply being ignored.

 

Let's take for example:

 

An African American woman who identifies herself as Caucasian. This is something that actually happens.

 

If a "black" person were to engage in plastic surgery (for white skin), drugs (for white skin) and other physical enhancements (for straight hair) to become a "white" person. What is going on here, and why should it be viewed as "wrong".

 

Well let me state my case plainly, and please do not simply ignore it and get into a detailed conflation of what is "black" and what is "white".

 

Many black people (women mostly) will straighten their hair and stylize it to look as straight and white as possible. When young black women see that the most successful black women have straightened "white people" hair (Oprah, Condileeza Rice, Michelle Obama) then it is a reasonable assumption that a degree of "assimilation to white culture" will gain them success.

 

No one frowns upon this practice. No one tries to intervene. No one tries to explain to them that curly African hair can be absolutely gorgeous on black women. No one tries to appeal to them to stop what they are doing. In fact, most people just simply ignore it.

 

In my personal opinion, I think they are denying their beautiful biology for cultural ("me plus" syndrome) acceptance and perceived advantage.

 

Regardless, in this example NO ONE IS BEING HURT. No violence is involved.

 

But if the same black woman were to take this a step further and obsessively use skin whitening drugs (which can upset biology and cause any number of damaging side effects) and use plastic surgery (bodily mutilation) to change her nose or lips, then we have violence being committed onto oneself.

 

It may seem abundantly obvious that cultural and psychological factors are what is really at play. It is not very likely that her biology is saying "You're white!!! Be that white woman you've always dreamed of being!!!"... yet when it comes to Transgender we have an emotional bias that can prevent us from seeing this.

 

The mutilation (violence/damage) or self-inflicted punishment through drugs, is a much more serious issue than the clothes you wear or the straightening of your hair.

 

When this kind of behavior is spotted in another person, the empathetic response is typically to intervene by appealing to the person to seek help or actually try and help them to accept who they are, without the need for inflicting self-violence and abusing their physical body.

 

The irrational, comfortable, easy and selfish response is to encourage their self-destructive behavior. It is much harder to approach a person who is inflicting or considering self-violence and to help convince them that it is dangerous.

 

It is well known that this kind of self-violence and these feelings of insecurity can escalate rapidly and become an addiction. It is not hard to find examples of plastic surgery addiction, anorexia, and body mod addictions, and to see where they lead.

 

Michael Jackson had an addiction to self-inflicted abuse. He may have had Vitiligo, but his response to this disease caused him to develop a neurosis that destroyed his self-esteem and escalated his self-hatred. He talked about his self-hatred rather candidly, while vehemently denying his addiction to self-mutilation and assimilation to the "white"-image.

 

Now you could argue that ALL surgery or even hair straightening is "damage" to the body and therefore self-abuse, but we have to remember that everything is relative and found in degrees... Sex change surgery is not a surgery performed to "save your life" in the now, it is a cosmetic ritualistic surgery. It is the belief that "looking different" will somehow change things, and you are willing to risk permanent injury, death, and deformity to achieve something that can be addressed through self-knowledge and loving oneself for who you already ARE.

 

Sex change surgery is viewed by many to be the extreme manifestation of an escalating addiction to self-abuse.

 

The right thing to do is to empathize, sympathesize, and encourage self-knowledge of why you would be so desperate to commit violence upon yourself.

Encouraging self-violence and telling the victim to wear the violence as a badge of pride is destructive to everyone.

 

 

At least she still acknowledges that she is black, but prefers to look white.

[jpahmad]

As the risk of drawing a flame war, the real question is what distinguishes the behavior from borderline personality disorder. Is it that this particular requirement that a boundary be crossed is forced to be socially acceptable? If you insist on being referred to as JPasaurus (Rex), and that you be allowed to ravage raw warm-blooded food in a restaurant is not yet socially acceptable, by law, but if enough trannosaurs gather enough lobbying resources I'm sure we'll need a mammalian buffet added to the local cafeteria.

 

Most of us deal with our eating quirks in quiet desperate silence.

 

Don't forget that I want my own land for grazing and/or chasing game (if I am a meat-eater)

Here's the real question.  Shouldn't all objects, including "living" objects, be able to be objectively defined?  If not, then there goes philosophy.

[AncapFTW]

Don't forget that I want my own land for grazing and/or chasing game (if I am a meat-eater)

Here's the real question.  Shouldn't all objects, including "living" objects, be able to be objectively defined?  If not, then there goes philosophy.

If you bought the land and aren't using it to hurt people, who cares if you chase wild game and bite them to death?

 

Also, there are objective definitions for living objects, but because living beings, especially sapient ones, have both a mental and a physical state, you have to define both.  The problem comes when you assume that because the physical part can be described with a certain word, the mental aspect must also be capable of being described with that word, and if it isn't, then they have serious mental problems.

 

Let me give you an example:

There are certain behavioral aspects that are stereotypically associated with certain races.  What if we said that any black person that "acted white" was insane?  What if I said an Asian guy was insane because he adopted an accent, converted to Judaism, and started using Yiddish words?

Few people would agree with me if I said that, but if someone is biologically one gender and associate with and adopt another gender, it is perfectly fine to some people to say they are crazy.  Can you tell me the difference?

[Alice Amell]

Alice, thank you for giving us your personal inside perspective. It is definitely important when discussing a subject that we are not necessarily directly emotionally invested in, to always hear from people who are. I think the importance of this often goes overlooked.

 

However, I think the core of this issue is not being rebutted by one side. I see it mentioned over and over, but it is simply being ignored.

 

Let's take for example:

 

An African American woman who identifies herself as Caucasian. This is something that actually happens.

 

If a "black" person were to engage in plastic surgery (for white skin), drugs (for white skin) and other physical enhancements (for straight hair) to become a "white" person. What is going on here, and why should it be viewed as "wrong".

 

Well let me state my case plainly, and please do not simply ignore it and get into a detailed conflation of what is "black" and what is "white".

 

Many black people (women mostly) will straighten their hair and stylize it to look as straight and white as possible. When young black women see that the most successful black women have straightened "white people" hair (Oprah, Condileeza Rice, Michelle Obama) then it is a reasonable assumption that a degree of "assimilation to white culture" will gain them success.

 

No one frowns upon this practice. No one tries to intervene. No one tries to explain to them that curly African hair can be absolutely gorgeous on black women. No one tries to appeal to them to stop what they are doing. In fact, most people just simply ignore it.

 

In my personal opinion, I think they are denying their beautiful biology for cultural ("me plus" syndrome) acceptance and perceived advantage.

 

Regardless, in this example NO ONE IS BEING HURT. No violence is involved.

 

But if the same black woman were to take this a step further and obsessively use skin whitening drugs (which can upset biology and cause any number of damaging side effects) and use plastic surgery (bodily mutilation) to change her nose or lips, then we have violence being committed onto oneself.

Thank you for listening to my perspective on it.

 

I do not know in what sense it is violence - that it causes physical damage? Is surgery to save a life violence? Would you describe it using that word? If not, calling voluntary surgery or voluntary body-altering violence is inconsistent. Let me repeat that is it voluntary; there is no force being used.

 

I also do not think straightening one's hair is necessarily assimilating to white culture. White people straighten their hair too. Are they trying to be more white? No, they are already accepted as white - because they are white. I do not see how changing hair styles is evidence of assimilation or idealization of white culture. Do you think no black women can straighten their hair less they be trying to be white? Should no one change their hair less they are denying their natural self? How far does this go - straightening, curling, cutting, dyeing, etc. Both black and white men and women do this.

 

Changing skin tone is nothing new either. Some people want to be lighter and some want to be darker - white people get tans all the time. However, I agree there is discrimination against black people and so there may be an incentive for them that there isn't for white people - but to what extent that is the reason for this behavior I can't quantify. But if I get a tan no one accuses me of trying to be more black.

 

I am not familiar with transracial people. I tried to look it up but found very little, just some satire. If you could link me to what you were referring then I'd feel better about commenting on it. Race is socially constructed as is gender (Race is skin tone and culture, while ethnicity is origin of birth). What is wrong with someone wanting to change appearance or behavior to be in another culture / group? However I couldn't find much about it so I think if it does exist is not as common as transgender, though that may be my assumption.

 

 

It may seem abundantly obvious that cultural and psychological factors are what is really at play. It is not very likely that her biology is saying "You're white!!! Be that white woman you've always dreamed of being!!!"... yet when it comes to Transgender we have an emotional bias that can prevent us from seeing this.

 

The mutilation (violence/damage) or self-inflicted punishment through drugs, is a much more serious issue than the clothes you wear or the straightening of your hair.

 

When this kind of behavior is spotted in another person, the empathetic response is typically to intervene by appealing to the person to seek help or actually try and help them to accept who they are, without the need for inflicting self-violence and abusing their physical body.

 

The irrational, comfortable, easy and selfish response is to encourage their self-destructive behavior. It is much harder to approach a person who is inflicting or considering self-violence and to help convince them that it is dangerous.

 

It is well known that this kind of self-violence and these feelings of insecurity can escalate rapidly and become an addiction. It is not hard to find examples of plastic surgery addiction, anorexia, and body mod addictions, and to see where they lead.

 

Michael Jackson had an addiction to self-inflicted abuse. He may have had Vitiligo, but his response to this disease caused him to develop a neurosis that destroyed his self-esteem and escalated his self-hatred. He talked about his self-hatred rather candidly, while vehemently denying his addiction to self-mutilation and assimilation to the "white"-image.

 

Now you could argue that ALL surgery or even hair straightening is "damage" to the body and therefore self-abuse, but we have to remember that everything is relative and found in degrees... Sex change surgery is not a surgery performed to "save your life" in the now, it is a cosmetic ritualistic surgery. It is the belief that "looking different" will somehow change things, and you are willing to risk permanent injury, death, and deformity to achieve something that can be addressed through self-knowledge and loving oneself for who you already ARE.

 

Sex change surgery is viewed by many to be the extreme manifestation of an escalating addiction to self-abuse.

 

The right thing to do is to empathize, sympathesize, and encourage self-knowledge of why you would be so desperate to commit violence upon yourself.

Encouraging self-violence and telling the victim to wear the violence as a badge of pride is destructive to everyone.

 

 

I wouldn't say it is abundantly obvious. I also do not know what psychology or cultural factors would make me want to be a woman - no, transpeople face a lot of discrimination. To suggest that black people would gain cultural approval or that I would gain any for being trans I think is a false claim. Skin lightening is a serious topic and people who have done it face a lot of scrutiny.  There was a big controversy over whether Michael Jackson was trying to be more white. I can't say I know the answer. He did get surgery on his nose, but I understand his Vitiligo may have been the cause of skin lightening.

 

I agree that taking hormones and having surgery is a much more serious issue. By taking hormones, I've done irreversible things to my body (infertility, breast growth - though I could have frozen sperm if I had wanted to). You say that it is self-abuse, but would you call someone who has plastic surgery to fix a deformity or a scar self-abusive? Would you tell them to accept who they are and not change themself?

 

From my perspective, I think I am accepting myself by going through these changes; I don't see it as a denial of my self. I felt like I was suppressing myself until I finally came out and started living as and going by and being accepted as a woman.

 

I don't know how self-knowledge can help me stop being trans. Self-knowledge, in my opinion, was what led me to accept my transgender identity. I had feelings of discomfort with my body and gender for as long as I can remember, but I suppressed it. The feeling never subsided and after 19 years I finally did something about it, and started taking hormones. I have felt much better since coming out and have been less self-abusive.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by self-violence, as I mentioned earlier. It may be irreversible and risky, yes, but to me the choice is clear - I want to do this and be who I want to be and finally feel better. I can see how that sounds bad, something an addict might say, though I'm not sure what else I should say.

 

I do appreciate this conversation and your openness about it, GuzzyBone. 

 

Don't forget that I want my own land for grazing and/or chasing game (if I am a meat-eater)

Here's the real question.  Shouldn't all objects, including "living" objects, be able to be objectively defined?  If not, then there goes philosophy.

Yes, they are able to. Did anyone claim they weren't?

 

As the risk of drawing a flame war, the real question is what distinguishes the behavior from borderline personality disorder. Is it that this particular requirement that a boundary be crossed is forced to be socially acceptable? If you insist on being referred to as JPasaurus (Rex), and that you be allowed to ravage raw warm-blooded food in a restaurant is not yet socially acceptable, by law, but if enough trannosaurs gather enough lobbying resources I'm sure we'll need a mammalian buffet added to the local cafeteria.

 

Most of us deal with our eating quirks in quiet desperate silence.

Taken verbatim from Abnormal Psychology by Ann M. Kring, Sheri L. Johnson, Gerald C. Davson and John M. Neale:

 

     DSM-5 Criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder

Presence of five or more of the following in many contexts beginning in early adulthood:

• Frantic efforts to avoid abandonment
• Unstable interpersonal relationships in which others are either idealized or devalued
• Unstable sense of self
• Self-damaging, impulsive behavior in at least two areas, such as spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, and binge eating
• Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures or self-injurious behaviors (e.g., cutting self)
• Marked mood reactivity
• Chronic feelings of emptiness
• Recurrent bouts of intense or poorly controlled anger
• During stress, a tendency to experience transient paranoid thoughts and dissociative symptoms

 

I do not see a direct overlap between being transgender and having BPD. The unstable sense of self is actually contradictory toward being trans because I have a stable sense of sense - in terms of my gender/sex, that is.

[_LiveFree_]

Scientific study using brain scans of transgender people

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.VXoUiqjZWyE

[Funkmaster_A]

I am not sure if you are trolling or not. Few people are getting surgery to look like Barbie. They just get surgery to look more feminine, to reduce dysphoria and to change their body so it is more aligned with how they identify. Which is very different from an obsession with beauty.

1) Sooo.... they get surgery and take drugs to look like "females," even though a "female" can be like anyone, and not just like 50% of the population?

 

2) I was specifically talking about Caitlyn Jenner, anyway.

 

 

If you bought the land and aren't using it to hurt people, who cares if you chase wild game and bite them to death?

 

Also, there are objective definitions for living objects, but because living beings, especially sapient ones, have both a mental and a physical state, you have to define both. The problem comes when you assume that because the physical part can be described with a certain word, the mental aspect must also be capable of being described with that word, and if it isn't, then they have serious mental problems.

Well, the pro-trans crowd are the ones saying "that because the physical part can be described with a certain word, the mental aspect must also be capable of being described with that word" by talking about biological "man"/"woman" and mental "man"/"woman."

 

Let me give you an example:

There are certain behavioral aspects that are stereotypically associated with certain races. What if we said that any black person that "acted white" was insane? What if I said an Asian guy was insane because he adopted an accent, converted to Judaism, and started using Yiddish words?

Few people would agree with me if I said that, but if someone is biologically one gender and associate with and adopt another gender, it is perfectly fine to some people to say they are crazy. Can you tell me the difference?

The insanity doesn't come from acting like xyz. The insanity comes from claiming to be an xyz, and then when someone asks them what makes them an xyz, they say "well, every dictionary ever written is wrong; an xyz is a person who acts like an xyz."

[jpahmad]

Let me give you an example:

There are certain behavioral aspects that are stereotypically associated with certain races.  What if we said that any black person that "acted white" was insane?  What if I said an Asian guy was insane because he adopted an accent, converted to Judaism, and started using Yiddish words?

Few people would agree with me if I said that, but if someone is biologically one gender and associate with and adopt another gender, it is perfectly fine to some people to say they are crazy.  Can you tell me the difference?

 How does a man know what it is like to not be a man?  More specifically, how does a future transgendered person identify with something they have never experienced?  Caitlyn Jenner, for example, may say that she identifies with females more, but how does she know what it feels like to be a female?  

[_LiveFree_]

what if I thought I was a dinosaur and demanded to be regarded as one?

 

 

As the risk of drawing a flame war, the real question is what distinguishes the behavior from borderline personality disorder. Is it that this particular requirement that a boundary be crossed is forced to be socially acceptable? If you insist on being referred to as JPasaurus (Rex), and that you be allowed to ravage raw warm-blooded food in a restaurant is not yet socially acceptable, by law, but if enough trannosaurs gather enough lobbying resources I'm sure we'll need a mammalian buffet added to the local cafeteria.

 

Most of us deal with our eating quirks in quiet desperate silence.

 

 

 

There is zero scientific evidence to suggest that any human being has the brain makeup of a dinosaur. Humans and dinosaurs are a completely different species. Dinosaurs are also extinct. 

 

jpahmad, to answer your question, you'd have a mental disorder that required psychological treatment. However, your question has nothing to do with transgenderism since brain scans have been conducted showing that the brains of, for instance, transmen, reflects those of cismen, and the same for transwomen and ciswomen. It's a loaded question you're asking filled with incorrect implied premises. 

 

What separates transgenderism from borderline personality disorder? 

 

1. Borderling personality disorder cannot be treated with hormone replacement therapy. 

2. Not all people with borderline personality disorder are transgender / Not all transgender people are free of borderline personality disorder especially with abuse and murder rates as high as they are for transfolk. 

3. Here's some more science...

http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/

[shirgall]

What separates transgenderism from borderline personality disorder? 

 

1. Borderling personality disorder cannot be treated with hormone replacement therapy. 

2. Not all people with borderline personality disorder are transgender / Not all transgender people are free of borderline personality disorder especially with abuse and murder rates as high as they are for transfolk. 

3. Here's some more science...

http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/

 

My tongue was pretty firmly in cheek.

[Alice Amell]

 How does a man know what it is like to not be a man?  More specifically, how does a future transgendered person identify with something they have never experienced?  Caitlyn Jenner, for example, may say that she identifies with females more, but how does she know what it feels like to be a female?  

That is like me asking you "how do you know what it feels like to be a man?" Caitlyn Jenner is of the male sex, but identifies with the female gender. Only she can make that decision of what gender she wants to be, not you. You are saying she is a man and therefore can't know what it is like to be a woman; but she is a woman, in that she identifies with the female gender, the same way you identify with the male gender. But unlike you, her gender is not associated with her sex and therefore it is not as acceptable for her to express that identity and she hid it for a long time.

 

If instead you mean, how can a transgender person know what it feels like to be of the female sex, to have a vagina and so on, I don't know that we necessarily do. Do you necessarily feel the same as other men do about being of the male sex? I can only speak to what I personally feel. I know I have a desire to have a vagina, and to use it for sex. It is hard to explain. I feel dysphoric with my current body and have a desire to change it - I have a desire to have a more feminine body. I am averse to my penis and do not want to use it for sex. But I still feel sexual urges - I want to have sex as a woman. I want someone inside me, not the other way around.

 

I apologize for being graphic but I do not know how else to explain it. I hope that answers your question.

[GuzzyBone]

God help me but I feel like this conversation is just going "well what is a man that is a female that has a gender that has a sex that is a man that is a woman that is a gender that is a man"..... My head is spinning.

This all reminds me of the people who purposely amputate perfectly healthy limbs because they have an irrational and overwhelming dysphoria for some limb of their body.

I will not suppose to know what is going through their head, what their childhood was like, but this is still behavior that often leads down a rabbit hole of addictive self-abuse. To purposely handicap oneself in order to gain some perceived advantage is an act of desperation.

You obviously feel there is an advantage to this elective surgery and taking of hormones, because otherwise you would not be doing it and then you would accept yourself as who you are, no matter what you look like.

Instead of pursuing self-knowledge (as in why you might feel this way, what might have happened in your life, what lead to this point, what childhood factors have made the person) you are electing to undergo permanent irreversible self-mutilation in the hope/wish/belief that this will address the issue.

Surgery is not taken lightly. It is extremely risky and dangerous. It is permanent and can result in injury, disfigurement, or death. You are not handicapped, you are a perfectly functioning healthy human being, you only THINK you are handicapped. The problem is in the mind, not the body. Your condition is not life-threatening unless you let it become life-threatening (which you are choosing to do). The mind can be worked with, but the body is permanent, and when you start amputating and damaging things instead of turning to alternative solutions for your mind, you are committing self-violence. Right now you are not in danger, except from hurting yourself. You do not have a life-threatening disease, you have a condition, a state of the mind. There have been amazing developments in this field, and you would be amazed at how we can lie, deceive, and deny to ourselves, but by working through these things we can learn to truly love who we are, exactly AS we are.

I want to help you. I want to stop you from hurting yourself any further. Ultimately that is your decision. I cannot possibly know what you are going through, but if you can't see that you are made exactly as you should be, then I really hope someone can help you see that.

There is nothing wrong with being different. You don't have to conform to a gender. You don't have to be anyone or anything but yourself. If your mind is not in harmony with your body, this is an issue with self-acceptance and self-esteem. Self-acceptance does not involve picking up a knife and carving up your body, so please don't try to twist self-mutilation into some form of self-acceptance

Please please please think about what you are doing. Think about the consequences. Think about the risks. Think about the inability to have children. This is gene-death. It is sacrificing the future for now. Having children is the most profound experience in the world and gives people's lives meaning. Biologically this is the only reason we have for existing, and everything we do revolves around child birth/raising.

Find someone who can accept you for who you are, but you will not find this without first accepting your physical appearance. You cannot love someone else until you love yourself. Do you have a partner, or husband/wife? If you do and they want you to change yourself through mutilation, then they are a shameful person.

You say that you suppressed these woman feelings for years, but by undergoing surgery and self-medicating you are only avoiding the real issue and trying to suppress your anxiety towards your biology and appearance.

In the video about the straight Transgender (no genital surgery) couple that had children, the newscaster interviewed the transgender couple and asked the woman "Do you feel happier now that you have made this change?" and the woman responded "I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders". This is not happiness, this is suppression. This is the same thing an addict to Xanax would say about taking Xanax to ignore the real problems that are causing the anxiety in the first place.

Pain is a motivating factor. It says something is wrong, and you need to change it. There is obviously something that needs to change, but you are trying to bring your body into an issue that exclusively about the mind. You would also feel extremely traumatizing pain if you were to mutilate your body, but if you do the procedure I am sure you would choose to be put under with drugs, and ignore that the pain is saying "STOP this is wrong"!!!

Please stop looking for reasons not to seek therapy, to read about self-acceptance, to seek out support groups dedicated to self-acceptance. I am not a therapist or qualified in any way, but even I would be willing to try and talk with you through this process if it means I can stop you from picking up the knife and help you learn to love yourself exactly how you are.

[_LiveFree_]

Downvoted. GuzzyBone, you have absolutely no idea what your doing or saying. Your head spinning is not a sign that things are amiss "out here" but "in there". You made so many assumptions about Alice, her struggle, her journey, her choices, and her history that you have no idea about. You think you're trying to help, but you're being very destructive.

 

Reparative therapy alive and well here at Freedomain Radio.

 

sheesh.

[PatrickC]

I have to admit to personally struggling with understanding this topic. I do have a lot of sympathy for people that find themselves in the position of considering transgender as something they want to go through. I don't have any personal moral issue with it either, since it's entirely voluntary (at least for adults). In no way can I equate transablism or transracism with that of transgender either. But it does concern me that we are somehow compelled to normalise it, without question. That we are told that all those questions have been answered. When a lot of evidence shows many transgenders often regret having surgery afterwards. The suicide rate I don't think can be entirely correlated to transphobism alone either. Admittedly anecdotal, but I've seen and met transgenders and they were rarely if ever discriminated against.

 

My main concern with normalisation, is that many children are being put through this process, with little questioning. Often as young as 9 years old. It's one thing for adults to choose this process, but quite another for children I think. Until there is overwelming evidence that this is more than just a pschological issue with some messed up brain chemistry. Brain chemistry possibly caused by childhood trauma, either in the womb or in infancy I have to remain skeptical. This of course does not excuse being hateful or hurtful towards those that identify as transgender of course.

[GuzzyBone]

My head is spinning because you guys are dancing in circles with abstract, subjective, intangible, or relative concepts, labels, and names rather than sticking to the actual issue (SELF-MUTILATION). We're all human, and gender/sex/orientation whatever is merely degrees (we all start as Female in the womb and we all have both Testosterone and Estrogen to varying degrees). You guys are arguing over where to "draw the line" with dictionary labels instead of focusing on the self-violence which is most important issue at hand.

Nathan, you conveniently avoided addressing anything I've said and instead decided to make a statement that has no rational foundation whatsoever, and with no evidence to back it up.

~ Welcome to Reality ~

THIS IS ME: Please don't pick up a knife and mutilate your body, You are perfect how you are, and you should love yourself for who you are, exactly how you are. Do not injure your body in hopes you will somehow feel better afterwards.

THIS IS YOU: It's perfectly reasonable to pick up that knife and let the amputation and mutilation begin! You will feel better afterwards and be your TRUE self.

Let's see, which side is "destructive"....

- My stance is to discourage the permanent physical damaging of flesh, organs, and body.

- Your stance is to encourage the permanent physical destruction of flesh, organs, and body.

So when exactly did up become down and the sky turn red? I must have missed this dramatic reversal.

Man it's really sick... Have some responsibility for your twisted values. If she were a cutter, suicidal, or anorexic, you wouldn't even dream of condoning this behavior (I'd hope).

Truly shameful.

I don't assume to know anything about Alice and I have stated that plainly. All I know is what she has told me, which includes the intention to commit an act of violence upon oneself (with the belief that this action will bring happiness or satisfaction).

Violence: "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, AGAINST ONESELF, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation"

Surgery is self-violence by very definition. Healthy people don't commit self-violence (undergo surgery).

[MMX2010]

Downvoted. GuzzyBone, you have absolutely no idea what your doing or saying. Your head spinning is not a sign that things are amiss "out here" but "in there". You made so many assumptions about Alice, her struggle, her journey, her choices, and her history that you have no idea about. You think you're trying to help, but you're being very destructive.

 

Reparative therapy alive and well here at Freedomain Radio.

 

sheesh.

 

No, Nathan.  That's not the problem.  The problem is that Alice is just one person, but transgenders are hundreds or thousands of people. 

 

Jpahmad listed the following:

 

DSM-5 Criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder

Presence of five or more of the following in many contexts beginning in early adulthood:

• Frantic efforts to avoid abandonment
• Unstable interpersonal relationships in which others are either idealized or devalued
• Unstable sense of self
• Self-damaging, impulsive behavior in at least two areas, such as spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, and binge eating
• Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures or self-injurious behaviors (e.g., cutting self)
• Marked mood reactivity
• Chronic feelings of emptiness
• Recurrent bouts of intense or poorly controlled anger
• During stress, a tendency to experience transient paranoid thoughts and dissociative symptoms

 

In response, Alice Amell said, "But I'm not like that, and I'm not like that, and I'm certainly not like THAT."  But none of these are the point.

 

Do the overwhelming majority of transgender individuals experience: "Frantic efforts to avoid abandonment"?  (Absolutely.)  Do the overwhelming majority of transgender individuals experience: "Unstable interpersonal relationships, in which individuals are either idealized or devalued?"  (Definitely.)  Do the majority of transgender individuals experience, "Unstable sense of self?"  (Yes.) 

 

The entire list reads, "Definitely.  Of course.  Yes.  Absolutely." for the majority of transgender individuals. 

 

But in response you want us to say, "Oh, but Alice Amell isn't like that.  And iHuman isn't like that.  So, because they're not like that, please look the other way as five year olds are taught there's no such thing as gender and eight year olds are given puberty-delaying drugs."

 

We're not going to do that, Nathan.  We're going to protect our children. 

 

Transgender individuals can be transgender all they want, but they can't claim equality with non-transgender individuals.  A 71% (or higher) suicide rate automatically disqualifies their claim of equality. 

[jpahmad]

 

jpahmad, to answer your question, you'd have a mental disorder that required psychological treatment. However, your question has nothing to do with transgenderism since brain scans have been conducted showing that the brains of, for instance, transmen, reflects those of cismen, and the same for transwomen and ciswomen. It's a loaded question you're asking filled with incorrect implied premises. 

 

 

http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/

 

Nathan, saying that the brain scans "reflect" does not mean that the brain scans are identical.  "Reflect" is a slippery word, does it just mean "similar" in this case, or "sort-of like", or "identical"?

 

There is nothing wrong with being a man who "feels like a women." And there is nothing wrong with being a woman who "feels like a man."  We define woman as XX and man as XY.  This is an objective definition.  The definition could change, sure, because it's arbitrary really.  We could say a woman is someone with a particular brain scan and a man is someone with a different brain scan, but what would be the impetus to do this?  Science or force?

 

 I have no problem with Caitlyn Jenner.  I'm sure I would get along just fine with her assuming she is a good person, but I'm sorry, in my mind, I don't regard her as a female.  Feminine?  Perhaps, but I'm not even sure about that.  Now, I wouldn't insult her by refusing to address her as she wishes, because that would obviously be disrespectful.  But I won't teach my children that "she" is a woman, I will teach them that Caitlyn Jenner is a man who "feels" like a women and wants to be a women.  There is nothing wrong with Caitlyn Jenner as long as she is happy with herself.  If she has the money to do all sorts of cosmetic surgery then that's great. 

 

However, my suspicion is that if Bruce Jenner lived in a world where people lived and let live, were empathetic and respectful of all the varieties of the human condition, then he probably wouldn't have a complex.  He would just be accepting of his body and live contently as a gay man, or a man who feels and acts like a women, without the self mutilation.  This is just a theory though, and I may be completely wrong about this.  It may be that, outside of any social context, Bruce Jenner felt completely alien in his own skin and would never have a happy life without the transformative surgery, without becoming Caitlyn Jenner.

[MMX2010]

However, none of these reactions have approached the situation with any level of philosophical rigor.

 

 

Here's an article from advice-columnist "Dear Prudence". 

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dear_prudence/2015/06/dear_prudence_parents_forcing_a_boy_to_be_a_girl_for_gender_enlightenment.html

 

 

My wife owns a dance school and recently received an unusual request for private ballet lessons. At first, she believed the inquiring father was seeking instruction for a male child (around 10) who self-identifies as female. No problem in that case. However, the father revealed that the boy (let’s call him Daniel) is being raised as a girl for two years as a “project” so he’ll be a more enlightened adult. The ballet lesson experience was to include dressing him in a pink tutu and calling him Danielle. My wife declined, saying this contradicts her professional ethic of promoting her art as a vehicle for healthy self-expression.

 

Problem solved, I suppose, except as parents, we can’t shake the idea that this is emotional abusive (our son would certainly find it a form of torture). But I don’t know that there’s anything illegal about it. Is there any way to help this poor kid, short of mildly implying (as my wife did in her last message) that this may not be in his best interests?

 

 

-------------------

 

What do Alice Amell, Nathan Diehl, iHuman, AncapFTW, Rainbow Jamz, and other pro-transgender individuals have to say now?  "Oh, but we had no idea things like this would happen!"  (Really?  You stand behind a lobby that repeatedly calls its critics "hateful", "transphobic", and "unenlightened" - while claiming that you couldn't predict that such extreme moralistic language would produce results like the one's above?) 

 

It's mean of me to predict your responses, so I'll let you respond for yourselves.  But if you respond with silent apathy, you'll know why I'll never support a transgender or pro-transgender individual, no matter how noble he presents himself.  Because once a ten year old gets emotionally abused so that his parents can feel "enlightened", all bets are off.  AND if you're not perceptive enough to realize that no ten year old girl will ever be forced to do masculine activities in order to become "gender enlightened", then you're a pawn in the war against masculinity and side with Stefan's repeated admonition, "Man bad; woman good." 

[AncapFTW]

Here's an article from advice-columnist "Dear Prudence". 

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dear_prudence/2015/06/dear_prudence_parents_forcing_a_boy_to_be_a_girl_for_gender_enlightenment.html

 

 

 

 

-------------------

 

What do Alice Amell, Nathan Diehl, iHuman, AncapFTW, Rainbow Jamz, and other pro-transgender individuals have to say now?  "Oh, but we had no idea things like this would happen!"  (Really?  You stand behind a lobby that repeatedly calls its critics "hateful", "transphobic", and "unenlightened" - while claiming that you couldn't predict that such extreme moralistic language would produce results like the one's above?) 

 

It's mean of me to predict your responses, so I'll let you respond for yourselves.  But if you respond with silent apathy, you'll know why I'll never support a transgender or pro-transgender individual, no matter how noble he presents himself.  Because once a ten year old gets emotionally abused so that his parents can feel "enlightened", all bets are off.  AND if you're not perceptive enough to realize that no ten year old girl will ever be forced to do masculine activities in order to become "gender enlightened", then you're a pawn in the war against masculinity and side with Stefan's repeated admonition, "Man bad; woman good." 

Once again putting words in other people's mouths. [insert straw man symbol here]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies  : Because I don't want to bother responding to your "one person was harmed in a way that is slightly similar to the group, therefore every member of group deserves no respect."

 

Let's use your method to deal with anarchy.  "Several psychotic people have called themselves anarchists, therefore, I'll never support an anarchist or pro-anarchist individual, no matter how noble he presents himself."

[GuzzyBone]

Respect and empathy towards a fellow human being involves discouraging self-destructive behavior, not supplying encouragement and support.

Like I said, healthy people do not get surgery (self-mutilation), only those who are truly sick and desperate will risk injury, death, and disfigurement in hopes of a better outcome.

The pursuit of any kind of elective surgery is a mental disorder akin to anorexia or elective amputation. The problem lies in the head, not the body, and the head can be fixed without violence.

Just remember that when you support and encourage someone who is considering elective surgery, you are encouraging self-violence. Have the decency and moral responsibility to admit it.

Honestly... you're arguing about whether or not someone is a man or a woman, when sometimes I can't even tell if we're all human anymore!

When the world encourages or accepts violence as a solution, we all watch the world fall. Isn't this the major point that this website tries to point out?


Alice, if you are reading this, I am sorry for getting emotional but it chills me to the bone to watch people choose to willingly hurt themselves. I really am here for you if you ever want to talk about it.

[utopian]

Alice, before I respond to you, I need you to seriously consider and answer a question for me.

 

 

What if, in whatever discussion we have, I just happen to prove transgenderism completely wrong? 

 

 

 

I ask this because I am concerned that, if I do have this discussion with you, and it does in fact turn out that transgenderism is a mental disorder, you may regret the actions you have taken so far, and start feeling suicidal. It is not my intent to drive anyone to such measures, and if you think you could not handle the idea that transgenderism is wrong, I don't want to discuss it directly.

[MMX2010]

Once again putting words in other people's mouths. [insert straw man symbol here]

 

Here's what's funny.  I get that my posts are sometimes subtle and hard to understand, but I made it easy for you.

 

I admitted that it was "mean of me to predict your responses, so I'll let you respond instead."  And I even warned you that, "If you respond with silent apathy, then you'll know why I'll never support a transgender or pro-transgender individual." 

 

Thus, you were invited to give your opinions OR get offended and withdraw your opinions.

 

So what did you do?  Withdraw your opinions and down-vote. 

 

 

 

 

 

Because I don't want to bother responding to your "one person was harmed in a way that is slightly similar to the group, therefore every member of group deserves no respect."

 

Not "one person".  A ten-year old boy.  A child.  This is FDR, right?  The place where Peaceful Parenting is our most important mission? 

 

*shrugs*