Andrew31 Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Hello everyone. I'm 24 and I want to move my ass and find a girlfriend because I've never had one. There's some bitterness in me, when Stef talks about dating with people near my age. I guess I'll never know what it is someone to date you only because spending time with you is interesting. At my age a girl's time is a precious investment, with a desired outcome, not just memories. I'd rate myself I'm 8 or at least 7. In my dark past I've tried PUA and the idea of getting a girl without manipulation was has given me only bitterness and anxiety. Now I consider myself pretty healthy but normal healthy people have good people around them. They know/are known by healthy girls. I don't want the girls from the circles of the people that were around me. I recently I talked to a good and healthy looking cashier at the mall and a girl at the park. I'm feeling may be it's too awkarad to be effective. Stef suggests clubs, but I'd feel awkward signing to a club and bailing on the second time when I've talked to the two out of 5 women near my age. I know the topic is tough, but I'd like to hear if you have any thoughts on the subject.
Susana Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 So what happened with those two girls? Did you get their contact info? talk or date at all? You can also do a meetup dot com club. and when there is an event you get an email. but question there is absolutely no sport or hobby club you are interested in?
MMX2010 Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 Which PUA teacher did you study PUA under? And how did you go about studying PUA? 1 2
Andrew31 Posted June 5, 2015 Author Posted June 5, 2015 Those two said they are taken. At univeristy I took about 15 phones and got 5 dates, two of witch were girls from a sect disguised as American English club(I'm in eastern Europe). What I try to do now is I'd say PUA without manipulation. If she can't handle the truth, she's probably not a unicorn anyway. As for hobbies, I'll become interested in what I have to. Thanks for the idea SeriousSusana, I'm now feeling that such meetings can be with 80% dating utility, with the women not having to explicitly admit they are trying to find a man and not feeling obliged to talk to a men they don't like and explain themselves why they don't like him. 1
J. D. Stembal Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 As for hobbies, I'll become interested in what I have to. No, you will be interested in what you are interested in doing. I tried this once with social dancing classes. I fear social dance because I associate school dances with many negative memories from childhood. I thought I could fool myself into liking it or overcome my fear because you meet a ton of women there, the majority of them attractive and not overweight. It wasn't a well thought-out plan in the long run. Women are smart, and can usually figure it out when you are being phoney. It was not a fun experience overall. Join a social club that you actually enjoy first, then find the women.
Susana Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 also what self work have you done to know yourself and be ready to find someone compatible? This is actually a very important step for many reasons, which I can explain but first want to know where you are on this
MMX2010 Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 No, you will be interested in what you are interested in doing. I tried this once with social dancing classes. I fear social dance because I associate school dances with many negative memories from childhood. I thought I could fool myself into liking it or overcome my fear because you meet a ton of women there, the majority of them attractive and not overweight. It wasn't a well thought-out plan in the long run. Women are smart, and can usually figure it out when you are being phoney. It was not a fun experience overall. Join a social club that you actually enjoy first, then find the women. That's interesting to me, because if you hadn't cared whether women would've seen through the "phoniness", you'd have played your cards much better. Realistically, you can't simultaneously "fool yourself into liking an activity" you hate and "overcome your fears of an activity". So a more genuine perspective would've been, "I'm doing this, even though I dislike it, because I'm looking to overcome my fears." From here, a woman's reaction to your presentation is irrelevant, since you're only approaching them to get over your fears of approaching. And from here, you can use aloof asshole personas to hit on the women, "I only came here because I was bored; maybe you dance well-enough to fix that, but we'll see." 1 7
Troubador Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 I dunno how much mileage you'll get out of this, but I'll give it a shot: Take a bit of a step back and dial back the "I must get a gf, I'm 24 for heaven's sake" attitude. I understand it can feel like a bit of a void, as it is incredibly difficult to buck the societal trends that beam out you *must* be successful with the opposite sex (a pressure both genders have in common). Fill your life up with cool experiences and even cooler people, of both genders. Life is too precious and short not to, besides it also serves to make you more interesting. I'd say actually having some good mates is a real boon as quality people tend to congregate, and will point you at stuff you can work on. Now I can't speak for all the PUA stuff it really isn't my area, but if you have a good social circle that contains some good female friends, I'd say their insights on where you might be able to improve may have more value than a random sample of men trying to work it all out on their own. As successful as some of them may well be with it. Managing a sort of Zen like attitude can pay off dividends, if you'll forgive a quick sampling of my own personal experiences. Back when I was younger and tended to meet more people with greater frequency, I can't think of a single occasion I went out specifically to hook up with anyone. My goal was to meet interesting people of either gender and shoot the breeze with them, sometimes that included women I could see myself being attracted to, and I could tell initially sometimes the assumption was I was just trying to get into their pants, once they figured out that wasn't my objective several interesting things would happen. Sometimes they'd just be cool with it and relax and we'd hang, or even become good friends, but on occasion there seemed to be this subtle shift as if the fact I *wasn't* interested suddenly became a personal affront, and then they might start being a bit more flirty, charming or whatever qualties they had that they liked to use to get men interested. Then there was a beautiful sense of do I go along with that flow and become a bit more assertive myself? or just dial it back if I didn't feel a connection I wanted to pursue. In short it is like this dance of intimacy, there are points where you are pushing things foward, and other times you shift to a more receptive pattern. All of this is really difficult to get to if the number one thought in your head is "must find romantic mate immediately!". All of it is a mix of interpersonal, creative and communication skills, all of which are learnable, but all the harder to chillout and learn when you put yourself under fear and pressure. The whole process can be pretty exhilerating and fun if you let it be. Perhaps counterinutitively be *really* *really* picky, in the dating market we all have something to sell, but if you don't realise the great value that you bring to the table other people are rarely going to point it out to you (although see my point of getting some high quality friends around you above!). I don't really know you, but if you want one objective observation if you don't want to manipulate then that is demonstrative of the fact you have some measure of personal integrity about you, and that right there is as rare as rocking horse shit in the dating scene these days, if you pair that up with just a small measure of confidence, it's practically rocket fuel! Anyhow sorry that was so long, but best of luck, and I hope there was something in all that of use. 3
Andrew31 Posted June 6, 2015 Author Posted June 6, 2015 Thank you for all the responses you did. First off I think I'm targeting only unicorns to some degree. @J. D. Stembal I'm sorry you were trough this sh*t man. I can't imagine it not being painful. With I'll become interested I wanted to express motivation. I imagine being honest about why I'm there-to find a girlfriend. As a working man(and lazy), I don't feel like spending my Saturday for some doodles. I'd imagine that a woman good for me would accept the truth about me and wouldn't be bothered by me not being too excited about the hobby thing. @SeriousSusana I've read and listened a lot. I'm not scanning to find a borken person for a codependend high of illusions. I know how to stay away from women like my mother, step mother and the girlfriends of my friends of childhood. I'd gladly discuss believes with you. @MMX2010 "I only came here because I was bored; maybe you dance well-enough to fix that, but we'll see." - I see this as beginning with a challenge to the woman and ego/social status games. You're giving this advice to a man who's not good with social gatherings and pretending. Man I hate PUA. It sells something impossible - learn a few tricks and become good with women(yeah the whole luxury items industry can replaced with tehnuques). First off, those who are interested are proboboly naive and broken souls who've been already trough bitterness. Then that game thing - a man outmanipulating a woman would require many years of experince(in dysfunctional home maybe) and a good amount of talent. PUA are crows and vlutures. Zombies eating zombies by lying to them how to eat other zombies by lying. @Troubador, 1)I don't think there's much to dial back. Dysfunctional and healthy, good and bad people are having relationships in their young years left and right and I didn't get this potentially quite pleasurable and valuable experience. As a result when I talk about relationships, to a large degree I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm loosing the possibility of getting a woman in her young and fertile years and still be at my mental deveopment age, se we can be somewhat egalitarian. Will I act to change that like crazy or stay passive and wait for chance is a different story. I feel that's the objective state of the things. 2)Sorry for being insulting but for a man with standards, it's very difficult to find friends, as Stef has found also. As for the cool experiences, what value do they bring me? One cool experience will keep me smiling during one date? Or will keep me from being depressed? Or will make me interesting to a woman who would otherwise not be that interested? Sorry again for sounding extra critical, but that is similar to what I've read in the PUA literature. 3)I suppose I can either be interested and want to know more about the person or not be. Isn't this sitting back/going with the flow/Zen - pretending to not care about something about witch I care? 4)The thing that bothers me about this "dance of intimacy" is that the actual state of things is not being admitted. I'd imagine my unicorn not having to dance, to want to know more about me. All the train wrecks around me are that way - the actual communication is non verbal. The truth is behind mists. "interpersonal, creative and communication skills"? The way I'd imagine a good wife, is a women who'd be interested in a good dad. You don't have to have those to be a good dad. It sounds like sugarcoating yourself. 5)Well thanks, I also feel that way, but only about my value towards very small amounts of women. For most I'm painful. My step mother says I'm like a stuck record for not giving up on principles and accepting new age crap. 3
MMX2010 Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 @MMX2010 "I only came here because I was bored; maybe you dance well-enough to fix that, but we'll see." - I see this as beginning with a challenge to the woman and ego/social status games. You're giving this advice to a man who's not good with social gatherings and pretending. Man I hate PUA. It sells something impossible - learn a few tricks and become good with women(yeah the whole luxury items industry can replaced with tehnuques). First off, those who are interested are proboboly naive and broken souls who've been already trough bitterness. Then that game thing - a man outmanipulating a woman would require many years of experince(in dysfunctional home maybe) and a good amount of talent. PUA are crows and vlutures. Zombies eating zombies by lying to them how to eat other zombies by lying. I asked you earlier what PUA teacher you trained under, because only some of them focus on Inner Game, particularly questions about why you're learning PUA in the first place. If you don't focus on Inner Game, you a-s-s-u-m-e that there's only one reason to practice PUA, and that everyone else is, therefore, following your reasons. Case in point, you thought I was advising J. D. Stembal to open with challenging flirtation in order to be good with women, but I was advising him to take that tactic so that he could be proud of attending the event and fearlessly hitting on women. For strong Inner Game to be develop, the rewards of PUA can never be the women you succeed with; the reward must always be You. 2 5
MMX2010 Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 2)Sorry for being insulting but for a man with standards, it's very difficult to find friends, as Stef has found also. As for the cool experiences, what value do they bring me? One cool experience will keep me smiling during one date? Or will keep me from being depressed? Or will make me interesting to a woman who would otherwise not be that interested? Sorry again for sounding extra critical, but that is similar to what I've read in the PUA literature. It's so much easier to find friends when you're more focused on being a friend.
Andrew31 Posted June 7, 2015 Author Posted June 7, 2015 @MMX2010 I'd like to give you the respect of answering, but in my view, you are bringing arguments coming from a different world. It's like getting into a car shop and advising the technicians how to turn a car they are fixing in to a boat the way I see it. 1
MMX2010 Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 @MMX2010 I'd like to give you the respect of answering, but in my view, you are bringing arguments coming from a different world. It's like getting into a car shop and advising the technicians how to turn a car they are fixing in to a boat the way I see it. Now THAT'S highly revealing, isn't it? You're withholding "the respect of answering" my questions solely because I'm "coming from a different world". You can't give an ultra-simple answer to the ultra-simple question, "Under which teacher did you study PUA?", because "MMX2010 argues from a different world."? Really!? I'll be blunt. If you think such a response conveys, "I, Andrew31, am an upstanding individual, dedicated to discovering truth above all else.", that response conveys the exact opposite. And if you think such a response conveys, "I, Andrew31, am so strong and so confident in my ability to identify and live truth!", that response conveys the exact opposite. 4 6
Susana Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 So what are the beliefs that you have? What are you looking to avoid exactly (the characteristics) and for example what would you ask potential women to find out if they have what you need? @SeriousSusana I've read and listened a lot. I'm not scanning to find a borken person for a codependend high of illusions. I know how to stay away from women like my mother, step mother and the girlfriends of my friends of childhood. I'd gladly discuss believes with you.
Andrew31 Posted June 7, 2015 Author Posted June 7, 2015 @MMX2010 By coming from a different world I elegantly tried to tell you, for me you're a manipulative PUA who's arguments for inner games can't possibly contribute to this topic. You just value different ways and different kind of relationship to the other sex and to the self(I don't think people who I 'judge' should take my opinion too serousely). I have the thought in my head - "this guy grabbed my post of honesty and kindness and tries to use it against me. He also provokes me by saying I'm not conveing this and that". I've read some stupid master DJ Fingers and Mystery method along with a whole bunch of guys at youtube. @SeriousSusana By discussing believes, I had in mind philosophy chat not in that thread. I've seen narcissistic, entitled, ego maniac, hypocritical for witch I have some patterns in mind. I'll be looking mostly when she talks about things, how is she seeing them. Does she have empathy for herself as a child. Does she have empathy and is she careful when talking about other people. Can she be morally and philosophically challenged? Can she take criticism? Is she open and honest? Will she be interested in my story? I've been rejected quite a few dosens of times, how concerned will she be knowing that I'm in the situation of being wounded the same way again? Does she have carrier plans, if only her father works, how does she sees it? If we talk about her friends being scumbaggy, to what extend she normalises it? If she's dysfunctional, but in some foggy way and is not very interested in knowing exactly how - no. If we are together and I will make nice sandwiches but she goes to her friends and family for shit sandwiches also, I'll tell her I'm losing interest. As Stef said good people ignite when shown the truth, average people fog and attack it. Dysfunctional people are defensive in inconfident with honesty. They see their inner world as a dirty secret or something and don't suspect it can be of great value to someone. Has she taken to heart the bullshit of society? Is she empathetic towards children is schools and kindergarden? Is she ragefufl toward criminals in jails? Does she blame computer games and guns for violence? 2
Troubador Posted June 8, 2015 Posted June 8, 2015 Ok if you're willing, let's examine some fundementals. You have said you have been rejected dozens of times. Did any of these women give specifics on why they would not entertain a relationship with you? If so did any of the women give similar reasons for not pursuing a romance? I also hate to keep banging on about it, but you really are getting held back by your fear of rejection. If you are talking in terms of "fear of getting hurt again", in context of being rejected that says a great deal. This is a particular problem for us men as generally more relationships will have begun with the man asking the woman out first. The main thing that separates you and I is sheer dumb luck believe it or not. First girl I had an attraction to at the tender age of 16 I did precisely fuck and all about it, and in that order!! Two years I did the pining thing, only to discover on the day I finished school that she had carried a bit of a torch for me too! I did a fair bit of soul searching before I started university and arrived at a few conclusions, firstly I wasn't ever going to let timidity and fear get in the way of being happy, and secondly in correlation to that I figured there would be times when I conversed with women I would come off as a gibbering moron, but there would also be times I'd pull of charming and erudite, and it seemed to me batshit insane to *completely* rob myself of experiences where I managed the latter simply for fear of the former. Long story short we all need the space to let the better angels of our nature shine forth, and touch those around us. So let me pose this question to you, what stops yours? 1
MysterionMuffles Posted June 8, 2015 Posted June 8, 2015 When it comes to joining clubs, it should be a club for something you genuinely DO enjoy. This could just be me, but I really love seeing people truly enjoy the things they like to do. The love they put into gardening, cooking, writing, painting, etc. it's a sign of healthy life in someone's pursuit of happiness and fulfillment. If there's a specific hobby you've been meaning to get into and end up really enjoying it, perhaps you can find a woman that way. Like joining a book club which often include very great philosophical discussions on the material the group is meant to read on a weekly or monthly basis. Another ironic way to getting a woman truly is investing in yourself. Work on the self-knowledge and bridging some gaps between your thinking andbehaviour. If you have virtuous thoughts, but not so virtuous actions, can you learn to become more congruent? The more kinks you work out of your dysfunctions, the healthier you obviously will become, which in turn will attract more healthy people around you. I think you're more than halfway there being as self aware as you are based on your first post. But yeah. You find a good girlfriend by first developing a good network around you of men who can spot the crazy, and women who you can also develop platonic friendships with who can be generous enough to give you wisdom on the female psyche. What's worked with me so far as well is become who I want to date. Now I get it, in relationships there is a Ying and Yang balance between filling each other's gaps, but hear me out. I don't think you can attract what you don't display first. It took a while, but since I have been wanting to date women who are empathetic, authentic, and confident, these are three qualities I had to work on in myself (and still continue to) before I could even afford to have the relationships I have now. Not that I have numerous romantic relationships, I'm talking more about friends. The kind who can hear me out about specific women and then challenge me on whether or not they are worth it. Now, I'm at a point where my own friend is encouraging that I date one of his family members, and I'm in the middle of exploring where that goes. I do not think for a second that she would have even been a possibility, had I not spent the past decade undoing my illusions and removing my dysfunctions because virtue attracts virtue. 2
MMX2010 Posted June 8, 2015 Posted June 8, 2015 @MMX2010 By coming from a different world I elegantly tried to tell you, for me you're a manipulative PUA who's arguments for inner games can't possibly contribute to this topic. You just value different ways and different kind of relationship to the other sex and to the self(I don't think people who I 'judge' should take my opinion too serousely). I have the thought in my head - "this guy grabbed my post of honesty and kindness and tries to use it against me. He also provokes me by saying I'm not conveing this and that". I've read some stupid master DJ Fingers and Mystery method along with a whole bunch of guys at youtube. Right. Meaning, you elegantly tried to tell me off. You are 24. You've never had a girlfriend. You've studied the most manipulative PUAs on the planet, without realizing that there are other, far more honest, far less manipulative PUAs out there. Meanwhile, I am 39. I've had girlfriends. I've had one-night-stands. I've had mistresses. I study the least manipulative and most honest PUAs out there. And yet you have the nerve to tell me BEFORE YOU HAVE EVEN HEARD WHAT I HAVE TO SAY that, "you're a manipulative PUA who's arguments for inner games can't possibly contribute to this topic." while also saying, "(I don't think people who I 'judge' should take my opinion too serousely)." Spelling errors, aside, Andrew31, telling someone their arguments are wrong before you've even heard them is the most serious thing you can do. It seriously shows all reasonable and rational people that you're not interested in hearing out alternative opinions. Instead, you're interested in shouting down all people who disagree with you - (who might, just might, know more than you do because they have what you want in real life). And if this attitude leaks into your interactions with women, (because how can it not?), you've just answered your question, "Why haven't I had a girlfriend?" --------------------------------------- What's worked with me so far as well is become who I want to date. Now that's funny. This is an ancap message board, right? So if a random poster were to come on here and say, "I'm trying to sell this product, what should I do?", we'd give him ancap marketing advice. Chief among this, we'd say: (1) You're not entitled to any profits, nor sales. (2) Your customers make the ultimate decision as to whether your product is worthwhile, and how much they're willing to pay for it. (3) So the ultimate truth is that you have to understand your customers: know what they want and provide it to them at the right price. Your feelings and thoughts about the product are irrelevant compared to those of your customers. Meanwhile, on this ancap message board, some random male dude just asked, "I'm trying to sell myself as a product, but it has never worked. What should I do?" And you've just given him the opposite of ancap advice! (1) You're entitled to any profits and sales, provided that you're doing what you enjoy. (2) Focus solely on your own thoughts and desires. Never change yourself to be more marketable to woman's desires. (3) Whenever there's a conflict between what women want and what you want, assume you're always right. Granted, you're not the only one on this board who thinks this way. Kevin Beal's rant about how he's tired of pretending to be someone he isn't comes to mind. But it is still amusing how little many male FDR members apply ancap-philosophy to relationships (and shout down the men, like me, who do). 2 4
utopian Posted June 8, 2015 Posted June 8, 2015 Here Andrew, this is quite possibly the best video I have found on explaining what women really want. There is a class of "secondary" things most guys develop thinking it's what women want, and really maybe they should want, but it's not what gets the girl. Give this a good look; And I think some of you others should give it a look too 1 1
MMX2010 Posted June 8, 2015 Posted June 8, 2015 Here Andrew, this is quite possibly the best video I have found on explaining what women really want. There is a class of "secondary" things most guys develop thinking it's what women want, and really maybe they should want, but it's not what gets the girl. Give this a good look; What's this guy's name? Is he married or not-married? How many women has he slept with? So I did a bit of Google sleuthing. His name is Leo Gura. His website is actualized.org. He doesn't list his age anywhere. He doesn't list whether he's ever been married. I don't expect him to list how many women he's slept with, but I was hoping that utopian (assuming that he's watched much more of Leo's videos) would know whether he's ever hinted. 1 2
MysterionMuffles Posted June 8, 2015 Posted June 8, 2015 OH I should also add that the reason why this works is because if you learn to be comfortable with yourself and love yourself, people in general will respond to that accordingly. A certain way you carry yourself will attract certain types of people. So if you're gonna be open, honest, and confident--since like attracts like, you will attract others who will be willing to reciprocate what they see as a mimic of themselves. Obviously, there's gonna be aesthetic and personal differences between you and others, but if you run on the basic principle of being at ease with yourself, people will be at ease with you and themselves because they don't have to manage their responses in an attempt to avoid hurting you or even blowing up your ego. If you have little to no confidence, people will generally feel the need to manage your emotions or be inclined to disengage due to their discomfort If you have an excess of confidence, the false kind, people will have to manage their own emotions and walk on egg shells, afraid to say things that might burst your bubble. The reason why self-knowledge is paramount to romantic relationships is because you need to develop an objective or as close to objective view and portrayal of yourself. This is what being true to yourself is all about. Knowing about your strengths and weaknesses, being honest about them, but not embellishing either of them extremely that people can see the inconsistency between your words and actions. Simply put, you can't sell a product you're not passionate about. (In a weird way, we do sell ourselves to others. We have things to offer, but expect a profit in return to maintain the relationship.) Likewise, if you're passionate about your own dreams and desires, I would imagine you'd expect others to be supportive of those dreams and desires, thus validating what you already feel secure about within yourself. A few questions I would like to ask you though are: Why do you want/need a girlfriend? How soon do you need to have one? Do you have someone in mind right now? What would you like to offer her? What would you like for her to offer you? 2
MMX2010 Posted June 8, 2015 Posted June 8, 2015 OH I should also add that the reason why this works is because if you learn to be comfortable with yourself and love yourself, people in general will respond to that accordingly. This is easily proven wrong through multiple examples, but I'll just pick one. Loser males who play video games all day, thereby contributing nothing to either the economy nor the advancement of the human species, are extremely "comfortable with themselves, to the point of loving themselves". Are these men surrounded with beautiful women who adore them? No. They're largely solitary. Why? Because relationships don't begin with the question, "Am I comfortable with myself?"; they begin with, "What does the other person want, and how do I provide it for them without breaking any moral rules?" The reason why self-knowledge is paramount to romantic relationships is because you need to develop an objective or as close to objective view and portrayal of yourself. This is what being true to yourself is all about. Knowing about your strengths and weaknesses, being honest about them, but not embellishing either of them extremely that people can see the inconsistency between your words and actions. Do you think it's surprising that your position, which begins, "Self-Knowledge is paramount to romantic relationships." leads to your conclusion that, " So if you're gonna be open, honest, and confident--since like attracts like, you will attract others who will be willing to reciprocate what they see as a mimic of themselves."? (From where I sit, your conclusion isn't surprising at all. You began this quest by looking at yourself, and your conclusion is that yourself is the answer. ) Meanwhile, my position begins, "Knowledge-of-the-Other is paramount to romantic relationships. Know who your woman is, know what she wants, and learn how to provide it to her without breaking any moral rules." What are the results of my initial position? Well, I can flirt just as easily with smart women as with stupid women. I can romance just-as-easily naïve twenty-somethings as hardened thirty-somethings. I can date multiple different types of women at once, knowing how their differences are more easily flattered and catered to (as well as how these differences inevitably close these women off to certain viewpoints). The man who presumes that romance happens when a woman likes what she sees because it's a mimic of herself inevitably finds himself less and less compatible with more and more women, simply because they're Not Like Him. 4 3
Andrew31 Posted June 8, 2015 Author Posted June 8, 2015 I really wanted to make a good response, but I had things to do and I'm very tired for a good post. I wander if the need to make a whole post to explain myself makes you guys feel like a bomb that I'm trying to defuse, not risking you thinking negative of me.
Lens Posted June 8, 2015 Posted June 8, 2015 Andrew, I hope that you will care less of what people think of you and care more of what you think about yourself and work on it. Your last statement shows that you lack, self validation and good self-esteem and this has its origin in childhood. Maybe what I am telling you here is new for you but the lack of trust we have within us attracts exploitive people with poor self-image of themselves. Also we tend to view people as source of approval or disapproval like in childhood. I recommend you the books of Nathaniel Branden all of them it will help you to raise your self-esteem and attract high self-esteem girls. To help you out I quote down below Nathaniel Branden about relationships this is from his book Six Pillars of Self Esteem page 21. "An important principle of human relationships is that we tend to feel most comfortable, most "at home," with persons whose self-esteem level resembles our own. Opposites may attract about some issues, but not about this one. High-self-esteem individuals tend to be drawn to high-self- esteem individuals. We do not see a passionate love affair, for example, between persons at opposite ends of the self-esteem continuum just as we are not likely to see a passionate romance between intelligence and stupidity. (I am not saying we might never see a "one-night stand," but that is another matter. Note I am speaking of passionate love, not a brief infatuation or sexual episode, which can operate by a different ~t of dynamics.) Medium-self-esteem individuals are typically attracted to medium-self-esteem individuals. Low self-esteem seeks low self-esteem in others-not consciously, to be sure, but by the logic of that which leads us to feel we have encountered a "soul mate." The most disastrous relationships are those between persons who think poorly of themselves; the union of two abysses does not produce a height." 2
MMX2010 Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Andrew, I hope that you will care less of what people think of you and care more of what you think about yourself and work on it. Your last statement shows that you lack, self validation and good self-esteem and this has its origin in childhood. Maybe what I am telling you here is new for you but the lack of trust we have within us attracts exploitive people with poor self-image of themselves. Also we tend to view people as source of approval or disapproval like in childhood. I recommend you the books of Nathaniel Branden all of them it will help you to raise your self-esteem and attract high self-esteem girls. To help you out I quote down below Nathaniel Branden about relationships this is from his book Six Pillars of Self Esteem page 21. Most men who have poor self-esteem tend to assume that acquiring the virtuous love of an attractive chick will validate them somehow. But women aren't biologically designed to provide men with this type of love; they're (barely!) biologically designed to provide this type of love to their children. So when a man wants validating-love from a woman, he inadvertently casts himself into the childhood role, which is a massive turn-off for women. Your proposed solution is to have Andrew31 "no longer care about what other people think about him" - but that's a pitfall trap, too. Because when Andrew31 proposes a very wrong solution to any particular problem, we need him to care enough about what we think about him in order for him to realize that his solution is wrong. (If he doesn't care about us, and if he doesn't care about what we think, he'll implement that wrong solution - hurting everyone in his path.) So the actual solution is to pursue the truth in all cases, and the confidence that results will be the consequence of acquiring that truth. And this confidence will be extremely different from the confidence that Rainbow Jamz proposes ("comfort with self, via self-examination") and from the confidence that you propose ("comfort with self, via shedding off what other people think about you"). The truth of the matter with regard to male/female relationships is, "If you don't please her, she'll find someone else who will." From there, the first and most crucial question is, "What do women want, and how do I provide those things without violating any moral rules?" (You'll notice that this solution runs contrary to both your's and Rainbow Jamz's proposals.) 1 2
Lens Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Most men who have poor self-esteem tend to assume that acquiring the virtuous love of an attractive chick will validate them somehow. But women aren't biologically designed to provide men with this type of love; they're (barely!) biologically designed to provide this type of love to their children. So when a man wants validating-love from a woman, he inadvertently casts himself into the childhood role, which is a massive turn-off for women. Your proposed solution is to have Andrew31 "no longer care about what other people think about him" - but that's a pitfall trap, too. Because when Andrew31 proposes a very wrong solution to any particular problem, we need him to care enough about what we think about him in order for him to realize that his solution is wrong. (If he doesn't care about us, and if he doesn't care about what we think, he'll implement that wrong solution - hurting everyone in his path.) So the actual solution is to pursue the truth in all cases, and the confidence that results will be the consequence of acquiring that truth. And this confidence will be extremely different from the confidence that Rainbow Jamz proposes ("comfort with self, via self-examination") and from the confidence that you propose ("comfort with self, via shedding off what other people think about you"). The truth of the matter with regard to male/female relationships is, "If you don't please her, she'll find someone else who will." From there, the first and most crucial question is, "What do women want, and how do I provide those things without violating any moral rules?" (You'll notice that this solution runs contrary to both your's and Rainbow Jamz's proposals.) Not all women are like your mother or female caregiver and not every man is like your father or male caregiver. Good people do exist FDR is one good example where you can find support, empathy, love... and a girlfriend! Isolation is a choice not a fate. 3
MMX2010 Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Not all women are like your mother or female caregiver and not every man is like your father or male caregiver. Good people do exist FDR is one good example where you can find support, empathy, love... and a girlfriend! Isolation is a choice not a fate. Every woman is not biologically programmed to give unconditional love and emotional support to grown men. Every....single....one. No exceptions. Do you agree with this or not?
MysterionMuffles Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 I really wanted to make a good response, but I had things to do and I'm very tired for a good post. I wander if the need to make a whole post to explain myself makes you guys feel like a bomb that I'm trying to defuse, not risking you thinking negative of me. You don't have to answer to us. You're completely free to no longer engage in your thread if you're not finding any value or what you needed from it. Whatever we think of you doesn't matter as much as what you think of yourself and what you decide to do with that in developing/creating/maintaing relationships. If it makes you feel more comfortable, though, would you like to know how I would answer to the questions I listed for you? 1
MMX2010 Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 You don't have to answer to us. You're completely free to no longer engage in your thread if you're not finding any value or what you needed from it. Whatever we think of you doesn't matter as much as what you think of yourself and what you decide to do with that in developing/creating/maintaing relationships. If it makes you feel more comfortable, though, would you like to know how I would answer to the questions I listed for you? If we're providing truths that the OP doesn't want to acknowledge, then his leaving the thread is an act of moral cowardice for which we're morally obligated to ostracize him. Saying, "you're completely free to leave if you're not finding any value in what we're saying places his own emotional-desire-for-comfort above his moral-obligation-to-pursue-the-truth. I'm not surprised that you, who counsels the value of comfort, are appealing to his own comfort ahead of his pursuit of truth. 1 4
Troubador Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Morally obliged ostracism? Really!? If some guy posts he's having trouble attracting a decent sort of woman, but doesn't elect to take advice that's freely given is grounds for ostracising? I mean if you don't want to freely associate with him by engaging in this thread by all means stop doing so, but unless he starts advocating rape or kidnapping I really don't see as he's harming anyone to the point we should all give him a wide berth. The path towards truth is arduous enough without actively throwing obstacles in the path of people who are struggling yet not actively harming anyone. The world is also slip sliding away from basic humanity and racing towards a narcissistic oblivion, so I'm more than willing to take a scant few minutes out of my day to post in support of someone who is looking for a bit of help. Even if they choose to ignore my advice that's cool, the thread may well be read by a lurker who does derive something of value from it. Even if not I've lost nothing. 2
MMX2010 Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Morally obliged ostracism? Really!? If some guy posts he's having trouble attracting a decent sort of woman, but doesn't elect to take advice that's freely given is grounds for ostracising? First of all, you didn't read me accurately. Secondly, if a piece of advice is objectively true, but the OP refuses to follow it without providing a rational counter-argument, then you know he's not really interested in obtaining/pursuing the truth about both himself and male/female relationships. He, instead, prefers an imaginary domain where the women comport themselves to his fantasies about How They Should Be. That, alone, is grounds for moral ostracism. I mean if you don't want to freely associate with him by engaging in this thread by all means stop doing so, but unless he starts advocating rape or kidnapping I really don't see as he's harming anyone to the point we should all give him a wide berth. Rape and kidnapping aren't the only forms of aggression, Troubador. Refusal to acknowledge truth always leads to aggression, which is why you should morally ostracize people who don't acknowledge truths. Now, if you want to state that no forms of advice given were objectively true, then: (1) make that argument, (2) allow me to counter-argue, and then (3) we'll see what happens. The path towards truth is arduous enough without actively throwing obstacles in the path of people who are struggling yet not actively harming anyone. Anyone who refuses to accept truth is harming himself. From there, he will inevitably try to harm others by advocating that his falsehood is true. Anyone who refuses to accept non-objectively-true advice isn't harming himself. You need to distinguish between the two types of advice. 5
Andrew31 Posted June 9, 2015 Author Posted June 9, 2015 Thank you for the responses everybody @Troubador At the time I was targeting dysfunction, low self esteem and a narrow range of attractiveness. I didn't have much of a chance to meet such people who'd explain what do they think and feel. I'm not sure ignoring something natural as fear is a good idea. As for the better nature shining forth, I think I'm on the outside pretty much how I'm on the inside. @Rainbow Jamz I'm sure enjoying a hobby can be sexy, but a passionate gardener will probably have lower chance of high survival and reproduction value(even for a virtuous woman) then a passionate IT professional who's there(at a club) just to find a girlfriend and is honest about it. The network of good man can be tough. I have yet to know one in person. I'm sure in this forum I can get better opinions then the least dysfunctional people I can think of. @MMX2010 "Meanwhile, I am 39. I've had girlfriends. I've had one-night-stands. I've had mistresses. I study the least manipulative and most honest PUAs out there." - for my point of view, a time you've not spend in self knowledge and becoming virtuous. Being from a different world, why should my opinion be taken seriousely and I can be wrong. I think we are talking from the point of view of different values. As for not hearing the other man's arguments, my father can't possibly tell me an advice with women, when he hasn't at least admitted his family is broken. @utopian I know this guy, he seems pretty generic. @Rainbow Jamz 1 Why do you want/need a girlfriend? - I may need the experience in order to have nice family. Also my biology and ego may not like marrying the first girl fast and having kid. 2 How soon do you need to have one? - I don't know, but for know I'm developing the exotic idea that I can become less picky and be fine with only going out with women. Being platonic will ensure much less dramatic brake ups. 3 Do you have someone in mind right now? - No 4 What would you like to offer her? - Being with me by itself should be interesting to her. 5 What would you like for her to offer you? - Being honest. This will give me best experience and I imagine it would be very interesting. I feel girls are queens of talking, but not connecting. @Lens I've read NB and have him as a voice in my head. I use man instead of person 1 1
MysterionMuffles Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Alright I appreciate your answers, but I don't understand what you mean when you say I'm sure enjoying a hobby can be sexy, but a passionate gardener will probably have lower chance of high survival and reproduction value(even for a virtuous woman) then a passionate IT professional who's there(at a club) just to find a girlfriend and is honest about it. Why would they have a lower chance of survival and reproduction value? Here are the answers to my own questions. They are not hard fast rules and do not guarantee that you find a mate, but having had this attitude has helped me so far. Hope it helps give you some perspective. I'm not talking from a high place of authority, but experience with having dated unhealthy women the past 8 years, I've taken a long break from cold approaching and pursuing women and instead invested in self-knowledge up to where I am now; having met more philosophically inclined and emotionally healthy women. All of which I do find great platonic friendships in and have little to no sexual attraction to for most of them, because well...I'll get to that later in my answers. 1. Why do you want/need a girlfriend?/4. What would you like to offer her? I don't need one. Every time I felt a strong need to be with someone, it was more for loneliness avoidance, and that didn't make me any happier than I intended. Whether I dated them or not, there has always been this feeling of anxiety around them. A lot of the anxiety of course was self generated based on my personal hang ups due to childhood and previous romantic relationships. Once I've dealt with those, then I was able to see what it was about these women that provoked some anxiety in me. Long stories short, they were not of quality women. The most common underlining problem in all of them? They've had dysfunctions they weren't willing to resolve because hey that's what I settled for when I wasn't willing to deal with my pain either. But I do want a girlfriend. I have a much happier and healthier lifestyle now than I had last year around this time. I've got two jobs I love, a healthy handful of work and personal friends I can see for most of the week, and a couple days in the week I can spend completely on my own without feeling lonely, but in fact satisfied and fulfilled. I am still recovering from years of social anxiety/asshole proximity disorder, so sometimes I need a few days off to rejuvinate my social stamina. Days alone are a nice touch to pause and reflect on what I am grateful for in life, and are done whether or not I'm triggered by anything in the week. With all that said, I want to share my happiness with someone so I can amplify the overall good vibes I've been feeling for numerous months now. And since I'm happier now, I'm also attracting happier women than my previous list of regrets. Answering questions 1 and 4 together, I would just like to add that that's what I want to offer: to share my happiness with someone who is already happy. And since we can't always be happy 100% of the time and we're bound to run into conflicts, I would also like to offer a different mode of handling conflicts: The Real-Time Relationship method of communicating honesty in relationships. Look into that book of Stef's if you haven't, it's immensely helpful. I've used it in most of my relationships lately, many of them dissolved, but the ones that matter have remained. 2. How soon do you need to have one? I'm in no rush. I'm still pretty young. Got lots of time. Not that I'll go at snail's pace, but somewhere in the next five years I would like to find someone I do hit it off well naturally and build something from there. I have no definite date or criteria for when I'd be ready to get married, I believe it's just all a work in progress I get to work at day in and day out. 3. Do you have someone in mind right now?/5. What would you like for her to offer you? Yes, I most certainly do I'm just getting to know her better to make sure I'm not reasoning myself into another attraction. Ya know, kinda like ascribing virtues and qualities where they may not be there. I'm in the middle of acquiring evidence. So far, though, I have been feeling energized and comfortable engaging with her. There's an ease to how we interact compared to what I used to have which was very fear laden. This seems different because she's one of the first few women who've told me about their childhood history without laughing at the traumatic parts. Well, part. There's only one incident she told me about, but I really appreciated that she didn't laugh at or minimize it. We've also talked about our romantic histories, I was more open than her, while she was a bit more reserved with that information. Which is fine, I already know I'm probably more into her than she is into me. This isn't sufficient for the basis in which a relationship to start from, obviously, but it's a very good start. But I don't want to detract too much from your topic, so I won't go on and on about myself here. So yes, I do have someone in mind. I just didn't realize how naturally flirtacious we've been til recently so now I'm exploring the possibilities. What I would like for her to offer me is support in my endeavours. And so far she's been supportive of the music I've written as well as the novel I've been writing. It's nice to have a good woman who's got your back in what you want to pursue. Most especially if you use that same amount of fearlessness and ambition to pursue her. If she can see that in you, and you apply it in numerous aspects of your life, that makes for some awesomeness to come your way! It's a sign of resource acquisition, provision and maintenance. Let me know what you think!
Andrew31 Posted June 10, 2015 Author Posted June 10, 2015 Because a man of high survival/reproduction value is likely good at manly stuff and not so passionate about gardening. Actually the way I see it, if the woman is of low quality, he may be a heartless monster, he may even be cruel to her, it's ok as long as he brings them resources and provides security. Sorry for putting you in a category please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a thing I see in your posts. Also I'm talking from the point of view of my values - creating a good prospering family. Not living calmly with a soul mate and finding our artistic potential. I'm skeptical with the zen - like attitude. We'll build up, we'll see where it goes from there. First off I'm not sure if we have much time to wait, if we want women who are both fertile and near our age. If you want 2 kids with a woman who's 30, you may have to have the one after another and that's it, no more after that. It took my father 1 year to make a baby with woman who's 29(although she had to go to reproductive doctors also I think). The stay cool and calm attitude wont buy your 3 princesses - your wife and two daughters a big SUV to keep their asses safe in traffic. Won't buy your suns top education and won't buy you moving to another country in case of some emergency. The way I'm feeling it is that nature has made man to have desires and the too much calmness seems a bit artificial to me. "This seems different because she's one of the first few women who've told me about their childhood history without laughing at the traumatic parts." I'd be more concerned who's side she takes - the parent or the child. Also how the things are in my imagination is that the woman shouldn't be less open then me and I shouldn't have to pursue her. I imagine her wanting a man like me from the beginning and being ready to work her ass off in our family. I imagine it, that if I'm too persistent, she'll have grounds to be lazy. In my raising, mostly our father worked and we had to have money for stuff. I'm not sure how would I look at things if I was raised differently.
MMX2010 Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 @MMX2010 "Meanwhile, I am 39. I've had girlfriends. I've had one-night-stands. I've had mistresses. I study the least manipulative and most honest PUAs out there." - for my point of view, a time you've not spend in self knowledge and becoming virtuous. Being from a different world, why should my opinion be taken seriousely and I can be wrong. I think we are talking from the point of view of different values. Okay. So what values do you have? What values do you think I have? And what are you going to do if/when I insist that those aren't my values?
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