How to find a girlfriend

[MysterionMuffles]

 

Because a man of high survival/reproduction value is likely good at manly stuff and not so passionate about gardening. Actually the way I see it, if the woman is of low quality, he may be a heartless monster, he may even be cruel to her, it's ok as long as he brings them resources and provides security. Sorry for putting you in a category please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a thing I see in your posts. Also I'm talking from the point of view of my values - creating a good prospering family. Not living calmly with a soul mate and finding our artistic potential. I'm skeptical with the zen - like attitude. We'll build up, we'll see where it goes from there. First off I'm not sure if we have much time to wait, if we want women who are both fertile and near our age. If you want 2 kids with a woman who's 30, you may have to have the one after another and that's it, no more after that. It took my father 1 year to make a baby with woman who's 29(although she had to go to reproductive doctors also I think). The stay cool and calm attitude wont buy your 3 princesses - your wife and two daughters a big SUV to keep their asses safe in traffic. Won't buy your suns top education and won't buy you moving to another country in case of some emergency. The way I'm feeling it is that nature has made man to have desires and the too much calmness seems a bit artificial to me.  

"This seems different because she's one of the first few women who've told me about their childhood history without laughing at the traumatic parts." I'd be more concerned who's side she takes - the parent or the child. Also how the things are in my imagination is that the woman shouldn't be less open then me and I shouldn't have to pursue her. I imagine her wanting a man like me from the beginning and being ready to work her ass off in our family. I imagine it, that if I'm too persistent, she'll have grounds to be lazy. In my raising, mostly our father worked and we had to have money for stuff. I'm not sure how would I look at things if I was raised differently. 

 

 

Were you addressing me in this post? It seemed like you've missed my point if you were.

[J. D. Stembal]

Case in point, you thought I was advising J. D. Stembal to open with challenging flirtation in order to be good with women, but I was advising him to take that tactic so that he could be proud of attending the event and fearlessly hitting on women. 

 

For strong Inner Game to be develop, the rewards of PUA can never be the women you succeed with; the reward must always be You. 

 

You are right.

 

If I had taken the dance classes with the goal of bettering my dancing ability, rather than meeting women, it would have been a better experience for me. I'm coloring my experience with hindsight, of course. The problem is that I attempted to take classes in an activity that I have never enjoyed because I know it is one of the best ways to find single and attractive women.

 

In general, I love to dance and move my body. It feels great, but when you throw in the added element of having to embrace the follow while simultaneously leading, I have two left feet. This probably stems from the fact that I was not regularly touched or held as an infant. Embracing someone else is an all-consuming effort for me.

 

When Andrew talked about being prepared to join any club that could get him dates, my mistake with social dance classes came foremost to mind. It will be much more productive for Andrew to discover what he is passionate about, and then figure out which women want to follow his passion.

[MMX2010]

You are right.

 

If I had taken the dance classes with the goal of bettering my dancing ability, rather than meeting women, it would have been a better experience for me. I'm coloring my experience with hindsight, of course. The problem is that I attempted to take classes in an activity that I have never enjoyed because I know it is one of the best ways to find single and attractive women.

 

In general, I love to dance and move my body. It feels great, but when you throw in the added element of having to embrace the follow while simultaneously leading, I have two left feet. This probably stems from the fact that I was not regularly touched or held as an infant. Embracing someone else is an all-consuming effort for me.

 

When Andrew talked about being prepared to join any club that could get him dates, my mistake with social dance classes came foremost to mind. It will be much more productive for Andrew to discover what he is passionate about, and then figure out which women want to follow his passion.

 

 

Why does he have to only join social clubs that he's passionate about?  Why can't he simultaneously join social clubs that he's passionate about and social clubs that he hates? 

 

And why, when dancing with others, did you focus on your own sense of shame / non-enjoyment?  Why did you acquire self-knowledge by speculating that the lack of coordination you feel must've stemmed from not being held as an infant?  (You could've, instead, empathized with every crappy male dancer in the place.  Or empathized with every woman not enjoying herself in that place.  Or both.  And, from there, you could've focused away from your own pain by providing encouragement to the men who were struggling just as you did.  Or you could've turned your sense of shame into a joke that made you feel better.  Or you could've turned your sense of shame into a joke that made HER feel better.  Or you could've just said, "I've come here to learn about dancing, but I suck at it.  I'll do my best to ensure you have quite the crappy time.  *smirk*") 

 

You had millions of ways to behave in that social space, but the way you tell it makes me feel that you were compelled to choose the behaviors you chose. 

 

-------------------------

 

Edited to add: If you had taken the dance class with the implicit goal of facing your fears, then you would've realized that you "won" by merely showing up, and that any added enjoyment was icing.  That icing could've then been spread to others, from a genuine awareness of how great it is to face your childhood fears. 

 

From there, women may or may not have flocked to you.  They may or may not have respected you.  They may or may not have had sex with you.  But they would've provided emotionally honest feedback to a man who was emotionally honest about his intentions and goals. 

 

Mini-rant: Why the hell does it never dawn on people that facing your fears is just-as-much meant to connect you to other people's fears?  And why the hell does it never dawn on people that getting in touch with your own childhood wounds is just-as-much meant to make you aware of everyone else's childhood wounds?  Does our avoidance of pain, especially social pain, leave us blind to the fact that other people are just as hurt (if not more hurt) than we are? 

[MysterionMuffles]

You are right.

 

If I had taken the dance classes with the goal of bettering my dancing ability, rather than meeting women, it would have been a better experience for me. I'm coloring my experience with hindsight, of course. The problem is that I attempted to take classes in an activity that I have never enjoyed because I know it is one of the best ways to find single and attractive women.

 

In general, I love to dance and move my body. It feels great, but when you throw in the added element of having to embrace the follow while simultaneously leading, I have two left feet. This probably stems from the fact that I was not regularly touched or held as an infant. Embracing someone else is an all-consuming effort for me.

 

When Andrew talked about being prepared to join any club that could get him dates, my mistake with social dance classes came foremost to mind. It will be much more productive for Andrew to discover what he is passionate about, and then figure out which women want to follow his passion.

 

I'm sorry to read that you haven't been touched or held as an infant. Have you had an aversion touch since? How are you in overcoming this?

 

I can relate to your plight because I remember being on a cruiseship a few years back and thought joining the free dance club atop the captain's deck would be a good way to meet women, but because of a similar problem, I couldn't dance worth shit. And not even in that charming awkward kind of way, just plain out awkward. It felt unnatural to hold this woman and even more unnatural to try and dance with her. It was a free salsa lesson that I could have easily passed on.

 

This compared to a more...modern dance club...the whole grinding this is a whole different story. That doesn't require much skill or coordination, it's just let 'em grind up on you and sway whichever way they sway. It felt good, but also a lil dirty. I was a better "dancer" in this regard, but it seemed too primitive for my taste. It was a nice one time experience that I appreciate, but won't repeat again. Anyways, I won't provide any explicit details about my experience with that.

 

Point is, I totally agree with you. Andrew, as well as any man out there who wants to meet a woman through joining clubs, really should be genuinely interested in that activity as I have been saying. All I really am saying throughout this thread is you can find self confidence and comfortability in pursuing your passions. And if there's any clubs in your area that help gather other people with similar interests, that's a good way to meet not just women, but people in general. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one of the best ways to attract a mate is to attracte a proper support system of virtuous friends. If your friends are level headed and rational, they can give you thoughts and opinions on the type of mates you try to attract because they might see some of your blind spots and point 'em out.

[Mister Mister]

No, you will be interested in what you are interested in doing. I tried this once with social dancing classes. I fear social dance because I associate school dances with many negative memories from childhood. I thought I could fool myself into liking it or overcome my fear because you meet a ton of women there, the majority of them attractive and not overweight. It wasn't a well thought-out plan in the long run. Women are smart, and can usually figure it out when you are being phoney. It was not a fun experience overall.

 

Join a social club that you actually enjoy first, then find the women.

This is good advice

[MMX2010]

 

 

[Andrew31]

MMX2010, I'd say for now what(my values) I want is a good wife and children, good people around me. And helping good people who value truth and virtue. Not typical PUA stuff I suppose. When you talk about inner game and games, it seems distant. I believe you can add interesting material to the topic may be if you comment on places to talk to girls. I'm struggling with evaluating their age well. I don't see much point in trying to master my emotional reactions to things I dont like. Can't I be honest, not master anything and focus on making money? A rational girl should forgive me for that.

As for the mini rant, a man's fears and woman's fears are I suppose very different. I suppose the other person must be very empathetic to think beyond the normal and see your fears.

 

RainbowJamz Rethinking what you meant would be quite long for me and I really need to go to bed, but I will look again. I'll think about the idea of support system of virtuous friends. It looks interesting.

 

J.D.Stembal, I'm passionate about really manly/nerdy things like philosophy, and DIY stuff. I don't believe there will be many women in a knife forum meeting. 

[J. D. Stembal]

 

 

Why does he have to only join social clubs that he's passionate about?  Why can't he simultaneously join social clubs that he's passionate about and social clubs that he hates? 

 

And why, when dancing with others, did you focus on your own sense of shame / non-enjoyment?  Why did you acquire self-knowledge by speculating that the lack of coordination you feel must've stemmed from not being held as an infant?  (You could've, instead, empathized with every crappy male dancer in the place.  Or empathized with every woman not enjoying herself in that place.  Or both.  And, from there, you could've focused away from your own pain by providing encouragement to the men who were struggling just as you did.  Or you could've turned your sense of shame into a joke that made you feel better.  Or you could've turned your sense of shame into a joke that made HER feel better.  Or you could've just said, "I've come here to learn about dancing, but I suck at it.  I'll do my best to ensure you have quite the crappy time.  *smirk*") 

 

You had millions of ways to behave in that social space, but the way you tell it makes me feel that you were compelled to choose the behaviors you chose. 

 

For a member with -50 reputation, you ask brilliant questions.

 

Andrew does not have to avoid activities he hates, provided he knows why he dislikes those activities, and his goal is to overcome his dislike. Otherwise, why would someone pursue an activity that they dislike unless they receive adequate compensation for pursuing it? Pursuing a costly hobby at the expense of long-term happiness does not sound like a recipe for success.

 

I did not speculate that my dislike of social dance comes from my childhood. I know that it does. I don't know why I would need to empathize with other members of the dance class. It was clear that I was the worst male lead in nearly every class, and some women actually refused to dance with me a second time. I got better over time, but I eventually lost interest because I started dating a women I met at one of the classes, further proof that I was there primarily to pick up women and not improve my dancing abilities. If Andrew does not much care about the activity, social dance would be perfect for meeting women who want to date.

 

Also, I'm not a fan of self-deprecating humor. Every time you cut yourself down verbally, your self-esteem takes a hit. Other people notice this tendency and resent it, or they may try to use it against you. In PUA, you are supposed to neg other people to test how they react to it. Negging yourself before the other person has a chance does not defuse shit tests to my knowledge. It would likely invite more rigorous shit tests, and make them more frequent, especially from a female. I'm not a PUA, so correct me if I'm way off base.

I'm sorry to read that you haven't been touched or held as an infant. Have you had an aversion touch since? How are you in overcoming this?

 

I appreciate your empathy with my inner-child. It has been a long struggle opening myself up to my infant self.

 

I was held a little bit, but obviously not enough. I sucked my thumb until I was 10, so any breast feeding that occurred was limited, or none at all. My mother went back to work eight weeks after my birth. I don't know if she pumped or not. She allowed me to be circumcised without giving it a second thought, so I doubt she cared much about infant nutrition.

 

No, I absolutely love human touch. However, this desperate desire to touch and be touched has lead me into some unhealthy sexual relationships due to a lack of self-knowledge about it. There have been a handful of occasions where I was sexually molested as an adult, a couple times, in public. I have also touched strange women in ways that most people would not find appropriate at first meeting. It's like people can sense that I like to be touched, as if it were written on my face. I can also sense other people with this desire. People send out non-verbals all the time, and it is just a matter of interpreting them correctly.

 

In the sphere of social dance, my problem is that I have trouble concentrating on anything else when I am touching another. I also have "socially unacceptable" habits centered around touching myself, but I will spare you the details.

 

Did I just derail another thread? Please accept my apologies, Andrew!

[MMX2010]

For a member with -50 reputation, you ask brilliant questions.

 

My story, (and I'm sticking to it), is that my ability to ask brilliant questions causes me to have such a low reputation. 

 

 

 

For a member with -50 reputation, you ask brilliant questions.

 

Andrew does not have to avoid activities he hates, provided he knows why he dislikes those activities, and his goal is to overcome his dislike. Otherwise, why would someone pursue an activity that they dislike unless they receive adequate compensation for pursuing it? Pursuing a costly hobby at the expense of long-term happiness does not sound like a recipe for success.

 

I did not speculate that my dislike of social dance comes from my childhood. I know that it does. I don't know why I would need to empathize with other members of the dance class. It was clear that I was the worst male lead in nearly every class, and some women actually refused to dance with me a second time. I got better over time, but I eventually lost interest because I started dating a women I met at one of the classes, further proof that I was there primarily to pick up women and not improve my dancing abilities. If Andrew does not much care about the activity, social dance would be perfect for meeting women who want to date.

 

The simplest point I can make is about Andrew.  If Andrew told me that he has slept with about a hundred women, but has never formed emotional connections with them, I'd say, "Whoa, dude.  You're seeking women for self-validation purposes, rather for their value as human beings.  You need to avoid women, and look inwards to determine your motivations towards and conclusions about women." 

 

But Andrew has the opposite problem.  He is 24 and has never had a girlfriend.  Hence, my advice is opposite, "STOP examining your intentions and motivations.  And just go interact with Real Women.  Let them smile at you, curse you out, sneer at you, have sex with you, tell you they love you, and so on.  GET OUT OF YOUR HEAD."  (I despise all advice in this thread which asks, "Andrew, what are your values?  What do you want in a woman?" - because that advice requires him to go into his head.)

 

--------------------

 

The not-so-simplest points I can make concern you, J. D..

 

I get that I'm one of only a few FDR members who reads TheLastPsychiatrist.  I get that his words are challenging, his writing style slippery, and his inside-jokes obscure.  I also get that he's able to make you think he's going to eviscerate People You Hate, only to sneakily and inevitably eviscerate You.  He sledgehammers your most sensitive and important parts - the ones that have been causing problems for years. 

 

His one-liners!  Sweet, sharp, deadly, painful poison AND remedy!  "The goal of your ego is not to change."  "Narcissism is the ego's defense against change." 

 

TLP (not Stefan) made me realize that everyone has two masters: The Fearful One who makes excuses not to change, and The Strong One who needs to take over so that you can fearlessly pursue what you want by changing.  And I can spot The Fearful One in others oh-so-well now. 

 

For example, "I don't know why I would need to empathize with other members of the dance class. It was clear that I was the worst male lead in nearly every class, and some women actually refused to dance with me a second time."   

 

(Get this.  Part of you, The Strong One, was smart enough to realize you absolutely suck at emotionally connecting with women, mostly because you absolutely suck at emotionally connecting with yourself.  The only emotion you feel when self-connecting is Anxiety/Abandonment.  So The Strong One steers you into THE PERFECT METAPHOR for both your problem and the solution.  You cannot dance while you are thinking; you cannot dance when you are anxious; you cannot lead a woman when you're focused on yourself. To lead the girl, you must READ THE GIRL.  And you will screw it up royally the moment you go inside your head even just a little bit.  But if you let The Strong One bullishly, callously, determinedly lead The Fearful One through the learning process, you'll finally get that you have A Strong One inside of you.)

 

(Naturally, The Fearful One is an idiot who wants to be in control of everything.  So, of course The Fearful One makes excuses designed to make him take control.  "No!  So many women refused to dance with me a second time!"  (The Strong One doesn't give a crap.)  "No!  I don't know why I'm supposed to empathize with the women there!"  (The Strong One knows that empathy for angry women is an emotional connection with them - which is the Exact Reason you're here!)  "No!  I'm the worst dancer here!"  (The Strong One knew this was going to happen, and wants you To Do What Needs To Be Done.)) 

 

And for another example, "I got better over time, but I eventually lost interest because I started dating a women I met at one of the classes, further proof that I was there primarily to pick up women and not improve my dancing abilities." 

 

(The Strong One is seriously thinking about hanging himself now, because he knows this is just a stupid excuse from The Fearful One.  Why couldn't you have just dated the woman AND regularly attended the dance class, regardless of whether she wanted to go?  That's exactly what The Strong One would've done, because The Strong One always knows What Needs To Be Done, and then he just does it.)

 

(But the Fearful One is excellent at detecting moral violations where none exist, paralyzing the Strong One from Doing What Needs To Be Done.  "Lack of integrity!  Hypocrisy!"  Madness.) 

 

 

 

  Also, I'm not a fan of self-deprecating humor. Every time you cut yourself down verbally, your self-esteem takes a hit. Other people notice this tendency and resent it, or they may try to use it against you. In PUA, you are supposed to neg other people to test how they react to it. Negging yourself before the other person has a chance does not defuse shit tests to my knowledge. It would likely invite more rigorous shit tests, and make them more frequent, especially from a female. I'm not a PUA, so correct me if I'm way off base.

 

 

The Strong One doesn't care when other people get resentful of self-deprecating humor. 

 

Also, The Strong One is deviously clever.  What are the words?  "I've come here to learn about dancing, but I suck at it.  I'll do my best to ensure you have quite the crappy time.  *smirk*")  

 

I'm quite good at combining extremely exaggerated language with extremely exaggerated emotionally-opposite facial expressions.  The words are negative and weak, but the smirk is optimistic and strong - and the double-exaggeration creates utter confusion.  And a confused woman is in no position to insult you, because she's too confused. 

 

Now, if she likes you, she ignores the weak and assumes the strong "is really who you are".  But if she doesn't like you, she ignores the strong and assumes the weak "is really who you are". 

 

The Strong One doesn't care either way.  He's just here to practice his confusion-inducing transparently horrible acting.  The Strong One is here to do What Needs To Be Done.

 

---------------------------------------

 

My ultimate point can be summed up in three simple words: READ THE GIRL. 

 

My last thirty-six hours have been pretty intense. 

 

The first thing that happened is that I randomly bumped into a much younger girl whom I know reasonably well, while she was working in a fast food place.  I read in her interactions that she was happy to see me, but when she asked if I was still doing my job, I quickly stated, "Yes, and I'm going to be about five minutes late to my next appointment."  The speed with which she bounded to get my food made me conclude, "At least moderately interested." - but I had already said I needed to leave, so I asked her when she was working again.  She told me that she was working the next night, and I concluded, "I'm going to ask her out tomorrow, and she's smart enough to know that I'm going to do so." 

 

The second thing that happened is that the most virtuous and amazing woman I've ever loved, (who has also told me she loved me), has rapidly fallen in love with another man.  He is better than me.  So it is just that she prefers him to me.  And the way she broke up with me was so respectful, honest, open, caring...all the traits that make her so amazing were displayed at what could've been a very damaging moment in my life.  And she displayed those traits because she was protecting me from that damage. 

 

So, of course, I get practically zero sleep.  And I plow through my work day with a degree of grace and dignity that made The Strong One proud.  The question arises, "Am I going to ask the girl out?" 

 

The Fearful One gives "excellent" FDR-approved advice, "Of course not.  You need to reflect upon the mistakes that you made with the virtuous woman, because if you don't self-reflect, then you'll get stuck in a repetitive loop of specific mistakes!"  The Fearful One also gives "excellent" practical advice, "How can you reasonably expect to hit on any girl when you're so sad about what happened?  She'll easily read the sadness all over your face, then she'll reject you!  You've gotten zero sleep, and you probably look like hell.  Rest up, keep going to the place, and then ask her out." 

 

The Strong one says, "Keep your promise." 

 

So I drive to the place, but it takes about 40 minutes.  And that 40 minutes is perfect for allowing The Fearful One to develop strategies/scenarios AND worries/admonitions. 

 

I arrive, and I can instantly feel The Strong One take over.  "This must be done."  "Find the joy."  "Her Yes equals Joy; Her No also equals Joy."  "Trust." 

 

I get there, she says, "Oh you're back." - but she gives no facial expression.  I love it when girls involuntarily reveal their sexual attraction, because I love love love the Aloof Asshole Challenge responses that emerge from my mouth. 

 

Zero facial expression?  Uh oh...  But it's her voice!  That slightly-higher pitched sound, coupled with the glacial facial expressions, paint a picture of a very smart girl who doesn't emote very well. 

 

I go dead-honest, with no greeting.  "I was going to ask you out for coffee yesterday." 

 

She's not surprised, "Oh.  What time?" 

 

Acceptance.  Joy.  I read the girl. 

 

------------------------------------

 

What if all you need to do is Read The Girl?  Are you willing to drop everything else, in order to Read The Girl?  Can you see that regret is one of the things you'll need to drop, if you want to Read The Girl? 

[J. D. Stembal]

I do not have enough plus reps for you, MMX.

 

There is a bit of fearful/strong negotiation going in inside my head. It will be interesting for you to note that my mother cannot form emotional connections as far as I can tell. She cannot even connect with her own feelings of betrayal. She refuses to acknowledge serious abuse that went on in my family, and probably still goes on with my half-siblings.

 

I purposely sought the most emotionally disconnected women to date, because I did not know how to relate to emotional intelligence. It is very clear to me now. I had the ability to read other people, but only the emotionally disconnected ones. I am becoming progressively more emotionally sensitive towards my inner-child, so emotionally disconnected people grate on my nerves. The "Strong One" is coming into his own right now.

 

Is the thread well and truly derailed or is it more on-topic than ever?

[MysterionMuffles]

RainbowJamz Rethinking what you meant would be quite long for me and I really need to go to bed, but I will look again. I'll think about the idea of support system of virtuous friends. It looks interesting.

 

Yeah definitely look into it more, please. I know it sounds like a long process, but it's neccessary. You can't just be instantly gratified by getting everything you want without working toward it. MMX2010 and I may have our disagreements on methodology in attracting women, but I do respect that he does value the reality of working to improve your circumstances. Nothing is free. Everything requires some amount of investment into it.

 

So hey man, PUA or simply becoming a better person with a virtuous network--whichever way you choose, I hope you choose the way that works for you and makes you the most happy. Or a healthy balance of both.

I could dissect your answers here, Andrew

 

1 Why do you want/need a girlfriend? - I may need the experience in order to have nice family. Also my biology and ego may not like marrying the first girl fast and having kid.

2 How soon do you need to have one? - I don't know, but for know I'm developing the exotic idea that I can become less picky and be fine with only going out with women. Being platonic will ensure much less dramatic brake ups. 

3 Do you have someone in mind right now? - No

4 What would you like to offer her? - Being with me by itself should be interesting to her. 

5 What would you like for her to offer you? - Being honest. This will give me best experience and I imagine it would be very interesting. I feel girls are queens of talking, but not connecting.

 

but I would like for you to give my longer post a better read and see if you can understand it better. You're not wrong in talking about biological advantages and stuff, but that was a mere fraction compared to the bigger picture I was trying to present in my post.

[Andrew31]

Jamz, I'll use the free time in the weekends to post more. 

 

@J. D. Stembal

I'm terribly sorry for the circumcision thing. If I were you and I have kids, I wouldn't show them to the grandparents. Let these fuckers never hold a child again.

I also erased self-deprecating humor, but went as far as to try to exclude f*ck, as why would something nice to do with the person you love be used as an insult? 

 

@MMX2010 The way I see it is that both masters are there for a reason. The fearful one has saved my ass many times and I respect both of them. The idea of getting out of my head and talking to women is interesting. I talked to a girl at the mall. Her table was near mine and I was almost done eating. We looked at each other. She seemed near my age, slightly below my attractiveness expectations. I finished eating, threw the plastic dishes and till she knows it, I'm standing in front of her. Looking at her I think for a moment I don't like her. She doesn't want to look at me but I say hello,   would you like to talk to a stranger? She says no thanks. I said ok and walked. I'm on the lookout every time in the bus. The problem is most girls my age are with glasses, bags, makeup, iphones and other crap. There seems to be not much girls near my age who have a decent chance of being virtuous.

[MMX2010]

Is the thread well and truly derailed or is it more on-topic than ever?

 

The second one. 

 

 

 

 

 

There is a bit of fearful/strong negotiation going in inside my head. It will be interesting for you to note that my mother cannot form emotional connections as far as I can tell. She cannot even connect with her own feelings of betrayal. She refuses to acknowledge serious abuse that went on in my family, and probably still goes on with my half-siblings.

 

Harsh, but true: The Girl doesn't care about your origin story.  She cares about whether you've mined all of the gold, the wisdom, and motivating lessons from your origin story. 

 

I was glad to hear in a recent podcast, "How do you know when you're done with therapy?", that Stefan isn't a big fan of lifelong therapy.  Not only does his non-fandom match my harsh but true lesson above, but it also matches my negative experiences with the members of the FDR NYC Meet-Up group: the ones who had been in therapy the longest were the least objective and most insufferable. 

 

So when (and if) you tell The Girl your origin story, you'd better Frame it in terms of Heroic Growth and Ultimate Triumph.  Because if you Frame it in terms of humble, "still working on myself", and "am still learning", she will not accept you as heroic nor triumphant.  (Naturally, the fastest and firmest way to do this is to realize that your origin story legitimately deserves to be Framed in those terms.  But given the choice between "faking it, that way" and "being honest, if it isn't that way", I'd advise fakery.  Every. Single. Time.) 

 

 

 

 

 

I purposely sought the most emotionally disconnected women to date, because I did not know how to relate to emotional intelligence. It is very clear to me now. I had the ability to read other people, but only the emotionally disconnected ones. I am becoming progressively more emotionally sensitive towards my inner-child, so emotionally disconnected people grate on my nerves. The "Strong One" is coming into his own right now.

 

The people who you used to be "grate on you"?     Where's the amused mastery in that?  Where's the joy in that? 

 

My Mistress barely emotes.  The Woman Who Loves Me is beautifully emotional.  The Girl I Read barely emotes.  And The Girl I Want To Bump Into is beautifully emotional. 

 

I adore the poking, prodding, leading I have to do with women who don't emote.  But I also adore the passive observation I have to do with women who do emote.  It's all joyful. 

[J. D. Stembal]

The people who you used to be "grate on you"?     Where's the amused mastery in that?  Where's the joy in that?

 

As in grating on my nerves, or offensive to me. There is no joy in it. How it relates to amused mastery, I'm not sure.

 

Specifically, I am thinking of people who lack empathy or compassion for their inner-child and, consequently, other people, like one of my friends who laughs at extremely inappropriate topics like death, bodily harm or natural disasters. He also tells the same quirky anecdotes over and over despite the fact that everyone has heard the stories at least eight times before. Similarly, he will not remember something you told him one or two days before. He will keep asking me the same question over the course of several weeks, even though I've answered him many times.

 

My theory is that he has a selective memory problems due to abuse or being raised by a bossy single mother. He also married a Japanese woman, who are well-known for being some of the most nagging women in the history of the world.

 

It was very hard for him to open up about when he was committed to a psychiatric ward and doped up with Thorazine as a teen. He spoke of it once or twice, and then shut down completely. This discussion came about because I warned him about putting his son on ADHD meds, and told him to check out Robert Whittaker's book, The Anatomy of an Epidemic. One of his son's public school teachers suspected child abuse and a state psychiatrist mandated that his son be put on meds, under the coercion of threatening to take custody of the child.

 

Eventually, after about a year, he discontinued refilling his son's prescription or started flushing it down the toilet, so at least his family can be thankful for that.

 

I also lack the sort of empathy required to avoid these types of behaviors, but I attempt my best to work around it through self-reflection. If I am annoying or offensive, I want someone to tell me about it. No one told me that I was a stinking drunk, and that it was killing me. I had to figure it out, and quit drinking on my own. Seeing people intoxicated now bothers me in the same manner as above. This fact has ended several of my personal relationships.

 

More on the topic of finding a girlfriend, I would like to share this:

 

 

Apparently, in order to be charismatic enough to attract women, you need to be able to cook, or fight hand-to-hand combat. At least, I have one of those covered pretty well down pat!

[MMX2010]

As in grating on my nerves, or offensive to me. There is no joy in it. How it relates to amused mastery, I'm not sure.

 

Specifically, I am thinking of people who lack empathy or compassion for their inner-child and, consequently, other people, like one of my friends who laughs at extremely inappropriate topics like death, bodily harm or natural disasters. He also tells the same quirky anecdotes over and over despite the fact that everyone has heard the stories at least eight times before. Similarly, he will not remember something you told him one or two days before. He will keep asking me the same question over the course of several weeks, even though I've answered him many times.

 

My theory is that he has a selective memory problems due to abuse or being raised by a bossy single mother. He also married a Japanese woman, who are well-known for being some of the most nagging women in the history of the world.

 

It was very hard for him to open up about when he was committed to a psychiatric ward and doped up with Thorazine as a teen. He spoke of it once or twice, and then shut down completely. This discussion came about because I warned him about putting his son on ADHD meds, and told him to check out Robert Whittaker's book, The Anatomy of an Epidemic. One of his son's public school teachers suspected child abuse and a state psychiatrist mandated that his son be put on meds, under the coercion of threatening to take custody of the child.

 

 

Do you still routinely talk to this dude? 

[J. D. Stembal]

Do you still routinely talk to this dude? 

 

He is a friend, so yes.

[MMX2010]

He is a friend, so yes.

 

I don't know you well enough to have any sense of whether this is true or not.  But I would ask you to consider whether you're strong enough in your own personal development to be routinely talking to this dude.

 

I'm not saying "DeFoo" from him, but I am suggesting that limiting your exposure to him could be beneficial to your self-development. 

[PatrickC]

Apparently, in order to be charismatic enough to attract women, you need to be able to cook, or fight hand-to-hand combat.

 

And there was me thinking 'cute and funny' was enough for them..

[MMX2010]

 

@MMX2010 The way I see it is that both masters are there for a reason. The fearful one has saved my ass many times and I respect both of them. The idea of getting out of my head and talking to women is interesting. I talked to a girl at the mall. Her table was near mine and I was almost done eating. We looked at each other. She seemed near my age, slightly below my attractiveness expectations. I finished eating, threw the plastic dishes and till she knows it, I'm standing in front of her. Looking at her I think for a moment I don't like her. She doesn't want to look at me but I say hello,   would you like to talk to a stranger? She says no thanks. I said ok and walked. I'm on the lookout every time in the bus. The problem is most girls my age are with glasses, bags, makeup, iphones and other crap. There seems to be not much girls near my age who have a decent chance of being virtuous.

 

 

The Fearful One often saves your ass by lying to you.  (Not just you, specifically, but you - everyone.) 

 

For example, "Looking at her I think for a moment I don't like her. She doesn't want to look at me but I say hello, would you like to talk to a stranger? She says no thanks." 

 

"Would you like to talk to a stranger?" is terrible game, especially if you delivered it in an honest, forthright tone of voice.  In girl logic, the only reason you would ask such a question is that you're creepy and trying to over-power her creep-detector. 

 

Furthermore, your explanation is interesting.  First, you developed the impression that you didn't like her, and then you exhibited bad Game.  Did you consider that your impression caused the bad Game?  Worse, do you think, "Would you like to talk to a stranger?" is a legitimate and honest way of opening up women-you-don't-know?  Worst of all, if you didn't like her, why didn't you just NOT talk to her?  (I mean, maybe, you were trying to disconfirm your impression that she was unlikable.  But to disconfirm your impressions, you have to act as if your impressions are wrong, and then see if you're surprised.  And bad Game would, therefore, confirm your impressions.) 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm on the lookout every time in the bus. The problem is most girls my age are with glasses, bags, makeup, iphones and other crap. There seems to be not much girls near my age who have a decent chance of being virtuous.

 

That's the biggest lie of all. 

 

How do "glasses, bags, makeup, iphones, and other crap" even relate to a woman's virtue?  Do ALL (or most) Virtuous Women eschew these things completely?  (No.)  So where do you get off judging the "virtue" of women by their material possessions?  Worse, do you think your impression that "she isn't virtuous" doesn't leak into your interactions with women?  (I'm not saying I succeed with every woman I hit on, but I don't enter into those interactions thinking, "She's stupid, but..." or "She's not virtuous, but..."  Instead, I enter with the question, "How do I bring the joy to this interaction, no matter how she reacts?") 

 

The worst lie, though, is your conclusion that you have to FIND a virtuous woman.  No virtuous woman has made herself virtuous by not interacting with virtuous men.  She either had a virtuous father, or a virtuous boyfriend (or two, or three) who led her down the path of virtue via their relationship. 

 

So your expectation that you need to FIND a virtuous woman is a lie.  And it's the lie that informs all of your other lies. 

[Andrew31]

I've gone to the mall today. Talked to 4 women and one rude ignore. One right from the door gave me flyer. I stopped and asked her, got no. One was also giving flyers of burgers. Went to her, said hi. Told her "I'll wait till these people pass" or something. Asked. Got no. I thought unicorns don't ask second times. I'm moving my ass here and you don't have the balls to accept. But the I thought she might still be worth it. Went back to her, acknoliged it's weird and she's at work. Is she sure? Got I'm taken. Another I'm taken. I got a 15 minute talk and a facebook out of a 9/10. I saw her and immediately thought I have to talk to her. She was very friendly. Seemed interested. We made a talk about our jobs. She impressed me by having decent one. She was interested in me being a programmer. After a while in the talk I felt a voice in my head "she ain't no unicorn Jimmy". She asked about my school. Do you know these annoying people, that tell you they know someone in your school and ask you if you know them. She asked me for 2 guys. Anyway, I saw in her every good characteristic a good woman/wife should have except empathy, sensitivity, curiosity, much honesty and much moral standards. She preferred giving me facebook instead of a phone. I told her I wouldn't have the patience to express myself in a tiny chatbox. She indirectly told me it's my problem. Anyway, she's not important anyway, we may not see each other again. But I see more hope now. 

 

Jamz, I've read trough your answers to the 5 questions again. The whole thing looks almost state of the art post from a certain point of view. What I'd criticise is a man of philosophy and self esteem spending time with social life. Where do you find all these virtuous people? Or you have low standards. What value do they provide to you? Second, I see something that looks like a bit too much patience. I believe it's natural for a man to have needs and desires. These are topics I've spend many hours in the past talking with friends. I'm beginning to feel typing posts will take till the end of the year and we'd still have a lot a talk about. 

[MMX2010]

I've gone to the mall today. Talked to 4 women and one rude ignore. One right from the door gave me flyer. I stopped and asked her, got no. One was also giving flyers of burgers. Went to her, said hi. Told her "I'll wait till these people pass" or something. Asked. Got no. I thought unicorns don't ask second times. I'm moving my ass here and you don't have the balls to accept. But the I thought she might still be worth it. Went back to her, acknoliged it's weird and she's at work. Is she sure? Got I'm taken. Another I'm taken. I got a 15 minute talk and a facebook out of a 9/10. I saw her and immediately thought I have to talk to her. She was very friendly. Seemed interested. We made a talk about our jobs. She impressed me by having decent one. She was interested in me being a programmer. After a while in the talk I felt a voice in my head "she ain't no unicorn Jimmy". She asked about my school. Do you know these annoying people, that tell you they know someone in your school and ask you if you know them. She asked me for 2 guys. Anyway, I saw in her every good characteristic a good woman/wife should have except empathy, sensitivity, curiosity, much honesty and much moral standards. She preferred giving me facebook instead of a phone. I told her I wouldn't have the patience to express myself in a tiny chatbox. She indirectly told me it's my problem. Anyway, she's not important anyway, we may not see each other again. But I see more hope now. 

 

(1) Do you know any proper Game-based responses to, "I have a boyfriend"? 

 

The following is my favorite, and field-tested, but you need just the right attitude to pull it off.

 

Her: I have a boyfriend.

You: So I guess we're not getting married, then?

Her: I guess not.

You: I'll see you at 8pm.

Her: Okay. 

 

The following is wonderful, and field-tested, but you need just the right attitude to pull it off.

 

Her: I have a boyfriend.

You: I have a goldfish.

Her: What?

You: Oh, I thought we were talking about shit that doesn't matter. 

 

The following hasn't been tested, and is probably too long to pull off.  But it might work on really smart, observant chicks.

 

Her: I have a boyfriend.

You: So do I.  What's his name?

Her: *gives name*

You: *overblown skeptical face*  Hmm, how tall is he?

Her: *gives height* 

You: *even more skeptical face* Wow...ummm, what's his last name?

Her: *gives last name*

You: You're sleeping with my boyfriend! 

 

 

 

(2) You know that voice in your head that says, "She ain't your unicorn, Jimmy"?  That's self-sabotage.  It's also arrogant fearfulness. 

 

For one thing, it's impossible for you to know whether she's your unicorn based solely on a fifteen minute conversation with her.

 

For another thing, it's extremely needy and desperate to even consider whether she's your unicorn based solely on a fifteen minute conversation with her. 

 

Combine those two things together, and my impression of every girl's impression of you is, "He doesn't really like me.  He's just doing this whole Game thing because he's angry whenever he's alone."  There's no joy to any of your approaches, nor is there any empathy for what she wants and how she feels. 

 

Do you even like girls?  Do you like whenever they feel something you don't understand?  Do you like whenever they get super-smiley or super-angry over something that you think is legitimately not worth getting worked up about?  Because I don't get the impression that you do, nor do I get the impression that you realize that you have to at least pretend that you do in order to get her to feel comfortable with you. 

[Troubador]

Ok I'm getting lost here, game is is dating right? Or is it an oblique reference to game theory I'm not understanding? Opening a girl? Is that just introducing yourself?

 

Despite not getting a lot of this I am in agreement with MMX2010 this really does have to be joyful. Andrew you mentioned fear being healthy and we shouldn't ignore it. Up to a point I would agree with you, but fear can be one of the biggest blocks out there, so it is an essential state for you to be able to overcome when you need to.

 

Without all the complex tactics and strategy I'm seeing that is going way over my head. Boiling it down to basic interactions with women can't you just relax meet a girl and have a fun conversation, kinda like the girl you got the Facebook details for? Just rinse and repeat until you meet a girl that a) you like and b) likes you and you BOTH want to start seeing in a romantic context. Does it absolutely need to be any more complex than this?

[MMX2010]

Ok I'm getting lost here, game is is dating right? Or is it an oblique reference to game theory I'm not understanding? Opening a girl? Is that just introducing yourself?

 

Game is a specific series of learned-behaviors that begin with Pre-meeting a woman and end with either Sex (if you're a shallow man) or Relationship (if you're not a shallow man). 

 

Game is also memorizing specific jokes (or entire scripts) that can be used during important parts of a conversation. 

 

Game is the ultimate rejection of the "Just Be Yourself" advice that everyone receives, but few can realistically implement. 

 

 

 

 

Despite not getting a lot of this I am in agreement with MMX2010 this really does have to be joyful. Andrew you mentioned fear being healthy and we shouldn't ignore it. Up to a point I would agree with you, but fear can be one of the biggest blocks out there, so it is an essential state for you to be able to overcome when you need to.

 

Without all the complex tactics and strategy I'm seeing that is going way over my head. Boiling it down to basic interactions with women can't you just relax meet a girl and have a fun conversation, kinda like the girl you got the Facebook details for? Just rinse and repeat until you meet a girl that a) you like and b) likes you and you BOTH want to start seeing in a romantic context. Does it absolutely need to be any more complex than this?

 

In my opinion, no he cannot "simply" relax, meet a girl, and have fun because he's already injected the process with moralistic, identity-based language.  He actually thinks of words like, "unicorn", "Who I Really Am", "manipulation", "virtuous", and "qualities of a wife" in the first three minutes of talking to a girl.  I've joked to people, "Yes, I'm quite smart, but there's a drawback.  Imagine me staring at a pretty chick, but all I can think of is physics equations." - but Andrew's version is ten times worse and not nearly as funny (or fixable). 

 

It is fixable by learning Game and applying Game until that language leaves his brain.  But it'll take a massive effort on his part. 

[Andrew31]

Hi MMX2010, I agree, do you want to talk to a stranger is quite a meaningless question. I used, Hi I wanted to say hi or I needed to to talk to you when I saw you. And a free opener from the poor helpless victims that are cashiers and such(nowhere to run heh), to whom I only have to tell I'm interested in a talk. 

 

1) I'm interested in knowing if she's interested in talking. How would a joke help me find out? I imagine I can ask, is that exit of the conversation? I'm interested in understanding what she wants, why I'd need ways to ignore it? If she falls for such thing, what kind of person is she? If I were a woman and somebody skips over such an elephant in the room, as I have a boyfriend, I'd be skeptical. 

2) Stef said you'll get everyhing you need to know in the first 5 minutes. And I think it's normal within 15 minutes to have an idea if she has a chance to be or more likely not. 

"Combine those two things together, and my impression of every girl's impression of you is, "He doesn't really like me.  He's just doing this whole Game thing because he's angry whenever he's alone."  There's no joy to any of your approaches, nor is there any empathy for what she wants and how she feels. "

I think youre very wrong here. I told her I dislike the way she talks about schools. (I've just written to her on fb I felt we were not too attracted) I was also very concerned about what she's interested in talking about and how she can get value out of our talk. Also the biggest value I can get out of a girl is an honest talk as I said. I want to know how she feels and what she thinks. 

 

Hello, Troubador. No I haven't felt tense or unjoyous. It's the complete opposite. I've never been so calm and curious. As I don't have to manipulate and pretend and I'm having self esteem I think, there are few ways an interaction can hurt me. Only the rude ignore made me feel like a begger for a little. 

[MMX2010]

1) I'm interested in knowing if she's interested in talking. How would a joke help me find out? I imagine I can ask, is that exit of the conversation? I'm interested in understanding what she wants, why I'd need ways to ignore it? If she falls for such thing, what kind of person is she? If I were a woman and somebody skips over such an elephant in the room, as I have a boyfriend, I'd be skeptical. 

 

 

And this is the part that's extraordinarily infuriating about you. 

 

"If I were a woman...." (You're not, so why bring it up?  Why treat your sentence as if it had any intellectual merit or truth behind it?) 

 

"I'm interested in knowing if she's interested in talking.  How would a joke help me find out?"  (Seriously?  You're legitimately asking how a joke would help you decide whether a woman is interested in talking to you?  Okay, then....)

 

Worst of all, how did you derive these "oh-so-philosophically-rigorous" conclusions about a woman's nature?  By having multiple girlfriends at once, over a period of years?  No, of course not.  You've never had a girlfriend.  But does that stop you from expecting your conclusions about women's nature from being taken seriously?  Sadly, of course not. 

 

Ignorance is when you know nothing-at-all because you have no experience.  (As in, you're ignorant of what it's like to live in an Arctic desert because you've never been there.)  But you are at minus-ignorance, because you think you know things that happen to be dead wrong.  (As in, you've never had a girlfriend - but you think you understand women as much, or even better than, men who've had girlfriends.) 

 

 

 

2) Stef said you'll get everyhing you need to know in the first 5 minutes. And I think it's normal within 15 minutes to have an idea if she has a chance to be or more likely not. 

 

 

Stef is a mid-forties genius who has both dated multiple women and is married with a daughter.  You are a mid-twenties non-genius without Stefan's interpersonal skills nor experience.  Do not compare yourself to Stefan; assume, instead, that you're twisting his message because he is successful and you are not. 

 

 

 

 

I think youre very wrong here. I told her I dislike the way she talks about schools. (I've just written to her on fb I felt we were not too attracted) I was also very concerned about what she's interested in talking about and how she can get value out of our talk. Also the biggest value I can get out of a girl is an honest talk as I said. I want to know how she feels and what she thinks.

 

 

 

So, let's get this straight. 

 

You are not attracted to this girl.  But you insist on talking to her through facebook.  And the major theme of your messages are concern over her level of honesty, specifically the part where you dislike the way she talks about schools.

 

Again, you are not attracted to this girl.  But you're specifically talking to her to express your concern about her honesty, and the way she talks about schools. 

 

I'm repeating it twice because you insist that you're "honest and calm", and you've entitled this topic, "How to find a girlfriend" because (and this is an assumption on my part) you're interested in actually finding a girlfriend. 

 

Meanwhile, no reasonable guy I've ever met has concluded, "The key to finding a girlfriend is to facebook message women whom you're not attracted to, using conversational themes that make it rather obvious that you're not attracted to her, while expecting her to madly fall in love with both the criticisms and the implications that she's wholly unworthy as a person."  All reasonable people I know would call such behaviors TOXIC and STALKER-ESQUE. 

[Troubador]

Ok Andrew31 now this thread has been going on I feel a lot more more confidant as to what is going on. You don't have a problem initiating encounters with women, but there is a colossal block between progressing things past a certain point.

 

I am a little concerned you are passing the buck onto women here. By that I mean you are interpreting your lack of success as down to the absence of quality in the women. You mentioned up thread how a woman should accept you unconditionally as is, pretty much straight out of the gate.

 

This may sound harsh but the common factor in your interactions with women is you, ie that is overwhelmingly likely where the problem lies. However the good news is *you* have control of that.

 

The question of what use is a joke? Well honestly humor is an advanced, not basic nor inane human trait. You can use it to satirize, an advanced mind can do a staggering amount with humor. Look at the videos where Stef helps people navigate personal problems. He used humor to connect and put people at their ease.

 

I am concerned Andrew that you view some basic human socilisation rituals as frippery and unworthy. I would like to put forward that it is the fundamental nature of the individual that engages in them that demonstrates their value. A wise quick thinking mind will often demonstrate itself through humor.

 

Basically not every dimension of life requires the utmost solemnity at all times. Social interactions (of any kind), essentially thrive on relaxed and fun shared moments, particularly early on. No one is saying you can't be deep, reflective and virtuous, but dear heavens if you intend to have children one day it will pay dividends to be able to radiate boundless fun energy.

Also to MMX2010 apologies if I judged you too harshly earlier. Taking your posts in totality wether you and I would agree on every point is doubtful, but it's increasingly clear you genuinely wish to assist Andrew, and I respect that tremendously.

[Andrew31]

I'd joke whenever would be nice. I only have problem with jokes to push the conversation in a certain way, specially over important stuff.

" the common factor in your interactions with women is you" But may be 95% of the women can't handle philosphy. I'm highly philosophical, so they can't hadle me. Unless I become less philosophical, I'm destined to "fail" ~95% of the times. I thought of being less philosophical and being more generic beer commercial guy, but that means rejecting myself. The bitterness of being rejected after you rejected yourself should be immense I feel. 

 

MMX, the tone you hold reminds me of crap from my childhood. You've also twisted things witch will take half a page text to untwist. I won't spend time composing a reply. 

Hey you said my judgement in 15 minutes can't tell much. I knew she wasn't philosophical and now I checked my facebook. I made a nice long message for her this morning, it's been read and I have an ignore. In future if I feel again "she ain't your unicorn jimmy", that's how crappy she probably is. 

[Troubador]

I'm going to play the semantics card here, philosophy means friend/lover of wisdom. If by philosophical you mean you live in a mental landscape of high concepts, then fair enough, but to me wisdom requires engagement in the real world, as mucky, dirty and chaotic as it can be.

 

I worry you are using your ideals as an excuse to divorce yourself from wider humanity. Now of course your response I predict is that any watering down of your principles is somehow the opposite of virtue. Well I would never argue for a watering down of virtue, but I would however question what leaves you so isolated you felt the need to post your original request for advice.

 

I guess and it is only a guess on my part that you pursue perfection which a lot of philosophers do, but that pursuit leaves you reticent to engage with life for fear of making a less than perfect decision. Might I suggest you look at Shakespeare's Hamlet as the eponymous character suffers from just that flaw.

 

If we come back to wisdom the wise thing isn't to have never made any mistakes ever, as such is impossible to the point of actually being foolish in and of itself. What wisdom is is to be able to make mistakes take responsibility for them and to learn and grow.

[MMX2010]

But may be 95% of the women can't handle philosphy. I'm highly philosophical, so they can't hadle me. Unless I become less philosophical, I'm destined to "fail" ~95% of the times. I thought of being less philosophical and being more generic beer commercial guy, but that means rejecting myself. The bitterness of being rejected after you rejected yourself should be immense I feel. 

 

 

You are not highly philosophical.

 

You are a 24 year old man who has never had a girlfriend, who expects his conclusions about female nature - especially female intelligence and female philosophicality - to be taken equally seriously as men who've had girlfriends.  That alone should indicate that you're not-at-all highly philosophical.  But it doesn't.

I'm going to play the semantics card here, philosophy means friend/lover of wisdom. If by philosophical you mean you live in a mental landscape of high concepts, then fair enough, but to me wisdom requires engagement in the real world, as mucky, dirty and chaotic as it can be.

 

I worry you are using your ideals as an excuse to divorce yourself from wider humanity. Now of course your response I predict is that any watering down of your principles is somehow the opposite of virtue. Well I would never argue for a watering down of virtue, but I would however question what leaves you so isolated you felt the need to post your original request for advice.

 

I guess and it is only a guess on my part that you pursue perfection which a lot of philosophers do, but that pursuit leaves you reticent to engage with life for fear of making a less than perfect decision. Might I suggest you look at Shakespeare's Hamlet as the eponymous character suffers from just that flaw.

 

If we come back to wisdom the wise thing isn't to have never made any mistakes ever, as such is impossible to the point of actually being foolish in and of itself. What wisdom is is to be able to make mistakes take responsibility for them and to learn and grow.

 

 

Your emotional read of the situation is correct, but your assessment is wrong. 

 

I've posted this article-snippet by TheLastPsychiatrist many times on this (and other) message boards, and people are either highly helped or extremely enraged by it.  (I love it so much that I have this memorized, and can recite it in face-to-face conversations.)

 

 

"Say you yell every day at an/your eight year old girl for sloppy homework, admittedly a terrible thing to do but not uncommon, and eventually she thinks, "I'm terrible at everything" and gives up, so the standard interpretation of this is that she has lost self-confidence, she's been demoralized, and case by case you may be right, but there's another possibility which you should consider: she chooses to focus on "I'm terrible at everything" so that she can give up.  "If I agree to hate myself I only need a 60?  I'll be done in 10 minutes. "

 

It is precisely at this instant that a parent fails or succeeds, i.e. fails: do they teach the kid to prefer (find reinforcement in) the drudgery of boring, difficult work with little daily evidence of improvement, or do they teach the kid to prefer (find reinforcement in) about 20 minutes of sobbing hysterically and then off to Facebook and a sandwich?  Each human being is only able to learn to prefer one of those at a time.  Which one does the parent incentivize?

 

If you read this as laziness you have utterly missed the point. It's not laziness, because you're still working hard, but you are working purposelessly on purpose. The goal of your work is to be done the work, not to be better at work.

 

For a great many people this leads to an unconscious, default hierarchy in the mind, I'm not an epidemiologist but you got it in you sometime between the ages of 5 and 10:

 

 

<doing awesome>

 

is better than

 

<feeling terrible about yourself>

 

is better than

 

<the mental work of change>

You should memorize this, it is running your life.  "I'm constantly thinking about ways to improve myself."  No, you're gunning the engine while you're up on blocks.  Obsessing and ruminating is a skill at which we are all tremendously accomplished, and admittedly that feels like mental work because it's exhausting and unrewarding, but you can no more ruminate your way through a life crisis than a differential equation.  So the parents unknowingly teach you to opt for Choice B, and after a few years of childhood insecurity, you'll choose the Blue Pill  and begin the dreaming: someday and someplace you'll show someone how great you somehow are.  And after a few months with that someone they will eventually turn to you, look deep into your eyes, and say, "look, I don't have a swimming pool, but if I did I'd drown myself in it.  Holy Christ are you toxic."

 

"Well, my parents were really strict, they made me--"  Keep telling yourself that.  Chances are if your parents are between 50 and 90 they were simply terrible.  Great expectations; epic fail.  Your parents were dutifully strict about their arbitrary and expedient rules, not about making you a better person.  "Clean your plate!  Go to college!"   Words fail me.  They weren't tough, they were rigidly self-aggrandizing.  "They made me practice piano an hour every day!" as if the fact of practice was the whole point; what they did not teach you is to try and sound better every practice. They meant well, they loved you, but the generation that invented grade inflation is not also going to know about self-monitoring and paedeia, which is roughly translated, "making yourself better at piano."

 

"You don't know how hard it is to raise kids," says someone whose main cultural influence in life was the Beatles.   The fact that you will inevitably fail in creating Superman is not a reason not to try.   Oh:  I bet I know what you chose when you were 8.

 

The mistake is in thinking that misery and self-loathing are the "bad" things you are trying to get away from with Ambien and Abilify or drinking or therapy or whatever, but you have this completely backwards. Self-loathing is the defense against change, self-loathing is preferable to <mental work.> You choose misery so that nothing changes, and the Ambien and the drinking and the therapy placate the misery so that you can go on not changing. That's why when you look in the mirror and don't like what you see, you don't immediately crank out 30 pushups, you open a bag of chips. You don't even try, you only plan to try. The appearance of mental work, aka masturbation.   The goal of your ego is not to change, but what you don't realize is that time is moving on regardless.  Ian Anderson wrote a poem about this, you should study it carefully.

 

Coincidentally, four days after Amy told her story I heard Howard Stern railing about an uncle who liked to play golf. "It infuriated me that he never took a lesson, never tried to get better. He was happy just playing, he didn't care if he got any better. It made no sense to me. How can you enjoy something and not want to get better at it?"  Answer: some people are happy with par.  He isn't, which is why he succeeded. The retort is, "well, I don't want to have to improve on everything, some things I just want to mindlessly enjoy." I sympathize, but I also own a clock, and there are only 24hrs in a day.  Look on how many of those hours go to true self-improvement vs. mindless enjoyment, and despair.

 

That hierarchy you learned-- and yes, it was learned in childhood-- applies to everything, including addictions.  Addiction may be biological, but no one ever claims that getting clean is biological.  "When I hit 45, my testosterone levels fell which also lowered the dopaminergic activity in the reinforcement pathways of the brain, so I was able to get off dope."  Wait, is that true?  HA!   No.  It's a decision, made at that time in those circumstances.  I know it's a hard decision, but like every other decision in life it is ultimately a binary one.  Biology is pulling you towards 0, learning pulls you towards 1.

 

"All this happens at age 8?!"  Think of how many years you've since practiced that hierarchy.  "So after childhood, you're screwed?  You can't change?"  Oh, no, people change all the time, once they figure out how they're sabotaging themselves.  Now it's your turn.

 

 

--------------------------

 

Andrew is what medieval people used to call a "scold" - someone who deliberately places himself in situations where he always comes out morally superior, because that's the goal.  He doesn't really want our advice on how to find a girlfriend.  He wants us to tell him how morally superior he is to every woman on the planet. 

 

He is, quite simply, more comfortable feeling terrible about the situation than he is in doing the productive work of change. 

 

[MMX2010]

 

Hey you said my judgement in 15 minutes can't tell much. I knew she wasn't philosophical and now I checked my facebook. I made a nice long message for her this morning, it's been read and I have an ignore. In future if I feel again "she ain't your unicorn jimmy", that's how crappy she probably is. 

 

 

My latest post to you didn't make it past the moderators. 

 

So I'll say this as nicely as I can. 

 

What do I do when I chat up a woman and don't find her attractive?  I leave her alone for the rest of our lives, then I find a more attractive chick and chat her up with a smile.   

 

What do you do when you chat up a woman and don't find her attractive?  You find her facebook page and give her a stern lecture as to how you don't admire certain traits about her.  Then, when she puts you on ignore, you say, "AHA, THIS IS PROOF THAT SHE CAN'T HANDLE PHILOSOPHY!" 

 

If you sincerely don't realize how toxic, stalker-esque, and potentially deserving-of-worse-adjectives that response is, I really don't know what to tell you.  Someone - Rainbow Jamz, Troubador, J. D. Stembal, anyone - back me up here. 

[J. D. Stembal]

I don't know you well enough to have any sense of whether this is true or not.  But I would ask you to consider whether you're strong enough in your own personal development to be routinely talking to this dude.

 

I'm not saying "DeFoo" from him, but I am suggesting that limiting your exposure to him could be beneficial to your self-development. 

 

You are right on the money. When he is being particularly annoying, I have to distance myself from him, and remind him of my feelings. When he discussed his mom spanking him, he was laughing delightfully, and I had to say, "Hey, I don't find that to be funny," and then I said it again when he persisted. At that point, he dropped it.

 

And there was me thinking 'cute and funny' was enough for them..

 

You may already be aware, but the cute and funny angle is specious. Cute and funny is code for the woman liking a man because he is not intimidating to her. If women are honest with themselves and recognize evolutionary biology, they will likely go for the tall, physically intimidating, and strong spoken man before the smaller, yet delightfully witty gentleman. Being of average stature and build, I am acutely aware of the female preference for dominant male characteristics. Having a sharp wit is not a detriment, but a women is going to scratch you off her sex list long before you have the chance to tell her a joke.

 

Andrew, did you watch the video I linked? The important bit is toward the beginning where Tucker talks about a woman deciding if she is willing to sleep with a man in a matter of ten seconds or less, usually before you have said one word to her. I have a funny feeling that you are going into these interactions asking many women out on dates while unprepared. Don't get me wrong, it is fantastic that you are facing routine rejection, so that it doesn't dissuade you in the future. Let's be honest; most guys don't deal well with female rejection, or can make improvements.

 

Rejection from women still stings me, perhaps more than most because my mother approved my genital mutilation as a baby. Circumcision is a savage and cruel rejection of manhood during a time when the man is the most vulnerable to it.

 

You don't actually have to flirt, come on to a woman or ask her out on a date to see if she's rejecting you sexually. First, you have to look at her for an extended period of time. If she refuses to make eye contact other than a quick glance or sideways glance, that is a bad sign. If you say hello to her, and she purposefully ignores you (most people leave earbuds in at all times so they can pretend to ignore people talking to them), looks down or laughs nervously, that is a bad sign. If you approach her, and she goes to the other side of the room or crosses the street, this is an extremely bad sign! I routinely see all of these reactions, not only from women, but from other men.

 

The lesson is that you would have been better off avoiding these women anyway because you already know that they aren't buying what you are selling. Get fit, get lean, and walk with shoulders wide everywhere you go. Eye fuck the nerves out of everyone's faces. People will start to take notice. Most people will likely avoid you like the plague, but those that aren't fearful will quickly demonstrate to you that they are not.

 

Maybe one time in fifty or hundred interactions, you will find a person that actually seems happy and enthusiastic to see you, and want to talk to you. That's the person with which you can have a satisfying conversation.

 

 

[Andrew31]

Stef: high quality woman's legs open with reliability, low quality woman's legs open with unreliability. I imagine being myself. If I'm anxious and shaky, then I won't hide it(except if it's to a degree to cause huge unconfortability to a highly likely not interested person). My smartphone is cheap, but I like it that way. My clothes also, a woman who seeks status won't like me. Btw, I'm not too interested in sex itself(at least I feel that way for a while now). 

Btw the girl from the mall who I thought ignored me wrote me. Told me she has a bf, wouldn't want to talk.

[Andrew31]

I went to a therapist/sexologist. It took us an hour to barely dig only on the topic of the girlfriend. One of her points is was I'm drawn to trying ways that would get me rejected. Also, that I'm more like focused on trying and doing attempts, and maybe repulsed by what will actually get me a girl. She said I'd be in better position if I let the girl have more space by being more indirect in a club/event or something. She'll be traveling and I won't be able to meet her in a while. 

[MMX2010]

I went to a therapist/sexologist. It took us an hour to barely dig only on the topic of the girlfriend. One of her points is was I'm drawn to trying ways that would get me rejected. Also, that I'm more like focused on trying and doing attempts, and maybe repulsed by what will actually get me a girl. She said I'd be in better position if I let the girl have more space by being more indirect in a club/event or something. She'll be traveling and I won't be able to meet her in a while. 

 

Clubbing has a very specific set of rules that isolated individuals do not know - and always botch.  If you're going to go dance club, you must read Bang! by Roosh.  (Though you should read it anyway.)

[snapdragon]

y