Studies on Race and IQ?

[andkon]

1. Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA) has IQs that are quite low. Now, are they measuring the IQ of people who live then and there? If so, how do they factor out the environment (war, famine, lack of education, worse parents, etc)? Are there any scores of SSA children who moved into higher IQ areas, etc?

 

2. Some people are innately better at singing. Likewise, some people could be innately better at what IQ tests for (e.g., pattern recognition). The real question is: just as with singing ability, how much flexibility is there in improving IQ scores? Can innately untalented singers be made better, by how much? Analogously, what studies are there on trying to improve IQ scores through education?

[SigmaTau]

Funny how the IQ test themselves are not subject to discussions, anyway.

 

Thomas Sowell 1990 CSPAN. (I suggest you watch the whole video , below I posted some conclusions)

 

Timestamp: 25:24  

"I restisted throught the 60's all efforts from people who were trying to get me

 to write about race,..,because i was not an expert in the field, but then I read

 what the so called experts were writing, and what kind of nonsense it was"

 

when i got into it, there so many terrible things that the general public was so

 unaware off"

 

And there so many bills of goods sold to the public by people who personally gain

from this stuff 

 

Timestamp 26:54

A terrible thing happened on CBS where they accused me of writing that bal

cks are genticly inferior

 

"I have written at least a least a half of dozen articles attacking the thesis or Arthur Jensen, So much so, that the BBC once wanted to arrange a debate with me and Jensen , why is it that in London they understand what my position is but in Washington they cant find out what it is."

 

Timestamp 27:26

there was a large survay of IQ, 20 years ago, over 100.000 people, when i

wrote all this stuff up so it is a matter of public record.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TrFafy_q28

[Danske]

I tend to find race/IQ discussions rather inane. Until severe IQ-shaving child abuse is no longer extremely common, I don't think we can have a clear discussion about race and IQ. And with the rate at which it is being eliminated (i.e. hardly, if at all), perhaps humanity will be entirely racially assimilated by the time that point is reached.

 

Who can say how different races respond to abuse without extremely unethical experiments either? Perhaps (and I'll use alien examples here so as to avoid any triggers) a green alien has an IQ of 90 with abuse, and 100 without. Whereas a blue alien has an IQ of 93 with abuse and 97 without. In a society where abuse is common, the blue alien appears to be smarter, even though it may have a a lower potential intelligence than the green alien.

[MrNlul77]

Eugenics springs to mind.

 

 

Edit: Not sure why somebody has gave me a down vote?. Perhaps the person who did would like to explain their reasoning as my comment is valid. If you'd like to talk about why you felt the need to hit and run, or maybe youd like me to help you understand the relevance of my comment, Im willing to do so. If you'd prepare not to address your issue that's fine too.

 

Have a great day

[Guest Gee]

I tend to find race/IQ discussions rather inane. Until severe IQ-shaving child abuse is no longer extremely common, I don't think we can have a clear discussion about race and IQ. And with the rate at which it is being eliminated (i.e. hardly, if at all), perhaps humanity will be entirely racially assimilated by the time that point is reached.

 

Who can say how different races respond to abuse without extremely unethical experiments either? Perhaps (and I'll use alien examples here so as to avoid any triggers) a green alien has an IQ of 90 with abuse, and 100 without. Whereas a blue alien has an IQ of 93 with abuse and 97 without. In a society where abuse is common, the blue alien appears to be smarter, even though it may have a a lower potential intelligence than the green alien.

 

Given the sample size of the ACE study, assuming ethnicity was recorded and given also the known effect of child abuse on IQ this would be an extraordinarily trivial correction to make.

The discussion may proceed in the absence of the realization of an anarchistic utopia.

[David Ottinger]

Variety in skin pigmentation is one of many genetic mutations that exists within our species.  Is it really worth isolating insofar is to create a category called 'race'?  And why stop at skin color?   Why not eye color and hair color?  I mean, since we're using color coding to categorize people into groups. 

Is there really any reasonable grounds for evaluating intelligence based on how one's body absorbs and refracts light?  How do you even begin to quantify that?  How did such a hypothesis even arise?


Isn't the whole dilemma just utter nonsense?

[MrNlul77]

Variety in skin pigmentation is one of many genetic mutations that exists within our species. Is it really worth isolating insofar is to create a category called 'race'? And why stop at skin color? Why not eye color and hair color? I mean, since we're using color coding to categorize people into groups.

Is there really any reasonable grounds for evaluating intelligence based on how one's body absorbs and refracts light? How do you even begin to quantify that? How did such a hypothesis even arise?

Isn't the whole dilemma just utter nonsense?

There is no dilemma, Racism is perpetuated by the state, it isn't just nonsense it has a very real and immoral evil purpose, to control the "livestock".

 

Racism is a result of religiously biased scientist, twisting scientific theories to justify slavery.

 

Studies on race and IQ are ridiculous, immoral and a perpetuation of the ignorance and control of the "livestock".

[SigmaTau]

Variety in skin pigmentation is one of many genetic mutations that exists within our species.  Is it really worth isolating insofar is to create a category called 'race'?  And why stop at skin color?   Why not eye color and hair color?  I mean, since we're using color coding to categorize people into groups. 

 

Is there really any reasonable grounds for evaluating intelligence based on how one's body absorbs and refracts light?  How do you even begin to quantify that?  How did such a hypothesis even arise?

 

 

Isn't the whole dilemma just utter nonsense?

Indeed! 

Isee the link has been removed , here is a new one from youtube 

[Euphoric]

Studies on race and IQ are ridiculous, immoral and a perpetuation of the ignorance and control of the "livestock".

 

It's important to know the general statistics on IQ averages between the races so that things like "white privilege" aren't given as the first and immediate explanation for some negative social phenomenon. That (the white as original sin idea) has fed into far more delusions and bad habits, and has been continued to snowball into the disaster was see today in race relations.

[Mister Mister]

Variety in skin pigmentation is one of many genetic mutations that exists within our species.  Is it really worth isolating insofar is to create a category called 'race'?  And why stop at skin color?   Why not eye color and hair color?  I mean, since we're using color coding to categorize people into groups. 

 

Is there really any reasonable grounds for evaluating intelligence based on how one's body absorbs and refracts light?  How do you even begin to quantify that?  How did such a hypothesis even arise?

 

 

Isn't the whole dilemma just utter nonsense?

No because race doesn't mean skin color.  It means a group of people who have genetic similarity based on having lived in a certain area for a long time.  See Stef's latest interview with Charles Murray.  Intelligence is one of the similarities.  Height is another.  Penis size is another.  Susceptibility to certain diseases is yet another.  A doctor who ignored race could be charged with malpractice. 

There is no dilemma, Racism is perpetuated by the state, it isn't just nonsense it has a very real and immoral evil purpose, to control the "livestock".

 

Racism is a result of religiously biased scientist, twisting scientific theories to justify slavery.

 

Studies on race and IQ are ridiculous, immoral and a perpetuation of the ignorance and control of the "livestock".

How can a study be immoral, or perpetuate ignorance.  Acquiring knowledge can only help.  I don't know what ridiculous means in a philosophical conversation.

 

If I understand this argument, which I've heard before, it is: "Scientific racism was used by some people in the past to justify slavery.  Therefore any scientific inquiry into biological difference between the races is racist and evil and meant to justify slavery".  That is so intellectually lazy.  You are begging the question, just assuming that you are right that there is no biological difference between races, and trying to scare people from thinking clearly about this challenging issue.

[SigmaTau]

Thomas Sowell debunks the race and IQ myth (note this is based on Army tests done since the 1910's up till 1970 incuding 100'000 !!! people)

Interview 1983.

 

Timestamp 2:54 (Sowell)

Jenkins seems to operate from the premise there seems to be something unique about the black IQ. What I tried to look at is if that uniqueness was there in the first place ...if the pattern and level of black IQ was significantly different in the past from any other ethnic group in simular stages of developement

 

What i found was, that there was NONE.

 

 

Timestamp 3:26 (Sowell)

One of the most striking things to me, is that as of WW1 jewish soldiers scored

WELL BELOW the national average for the "middle-test" in the army, within a decade orso that had all changed.

 

Seem to me to indicate that these IQ levels are not written in stone. Even for a

 large group.

 

Timestamp 4:12 (Sowell)

The IQ difference between black and whites is 15 Points and there are groups ..

Polish Americans come to mind.. whos IQ have risen more then 20 points in a period of 2 generations.

 

TimeStamp 4:36 (Willam F Buckley -- this is 1981)

Poles went up 20 points

Blacks went down 6 points (down to 85)

Mexicans went down 3 points.

 

4:50 (Thomas Sowell answers)

One of the problems of  the data on blacks in that study, a higher percentage of

 the data was taken from blacks in Southern schools. Where the IQ tend to be low

er in general (all races)

 

 

Firing Line talkshow with Thomas Sowell (1981)

 

[labmath2]

There are quite a few nonsense studies and conclusions floating around regarding IQ - some of those are covered in the conversation with Linda Gottfredson.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZPsXYo7gpc

 

If you want to debunk IQ - you need to do better than provide a link to Thomas Sowell saying something decades ago.

Not an argument.

[pretzelogik]

Let us know when you find a Mensa meeting full of anarchists.

[SigmaTau]

Hi MMD,

your quote ("..If you want to debunk IQ -  you need to do better than provide a link to Thomas Sowell saying something decades ago. ..")

 

Thomas Sowell 1983 ( "..The IQ difference between black and whites is 15 Points ..." )
 

Seems Thomas is as honest as can be in 1983. objective Data is objective data, 

Btw Dr Flyn (Dr Flyn (the Flynn effect) supports Dr Sowell conclusions of the data..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

 

QUOTE '...Flynn took the position that the very large increase indicates that IQ tests do not measure intelligence but only a minor sort of "abstract problem-solving ability" with little practical significance. He argued that if IQ gains do reflect intelligence increases, there would have been consequent changes of our society that have not been observed (a presumed non-occurrence of a "cultural renaissance").^[7] Flynn no longer endorses this view of intelligence and has since elaborated and refined his view of what rising IQ scores mean.

 

Linda Gottfredson 2007 (the same women in the interview with Stef)

(http://www.cato-unbound.org/2007/11/26/linda-s-gottfredson/flynn-ceci-turkheimer-race-intelligence-opening-moves)
 

Quote (  IQ tests measure only phenotypic (developed) differences in general intelligence (g), not what causes them. Ability differences among groups can be real without necessarily being genetic, either in whole or part. When scientists speak of race or sex differences, this is short-hand for average differences between the groups—just as when we refer to men being taller than women or Americans being fatter today than decades back. There is no implication that the observed differences are caused by genetic rather than non-genetic differences between the groups.)

 

 

So even the women interviewed by Stef is in agreement with Dr Thomas Sowell and Dr Flynn.


 

[SigmaTau]

Let us know when you find a Mensa meeting full of anarchists.

 

Interesting jest, What do you yourself think of the intelligence of the average ancap in your circle of friends?

 

 

  

 

 

[pretzelogik]

Interesting jest, What do you yourself think of the intelligence of the average ancap in your circle of friends?

 

 

  

 

 

 Would that I had ancaps in my real life social circle.  The ones that i have connected with virtually have evidenced an ability to critically evaluate things with consistency in a way that I have not necessarily seen demonstrated by those that identify themselves as having a high IQ, especially in regard to statism.  i would hazard a guess that this is due to the relationship of academia to the state.  I would be curious to know how many Mensa members have not matriculated through academia.

 

As far as IQ and race, I don't see any value in generalizing.

[David Ottinger]

No because race doesn't mean skin color.  It means a group of people who have genetic similarity based on having lived in a certain area for a long time.  See Stef's latest interview with Charles Murray.  Intelligence is one of the similarities.  Height is another.  Penis size is another.  Susceptibility to certain diseases is yet another.  A doctor who ignored race could be charged with malpractice. 

 

 

And yet skin color is the primary identifier people use to categories people according to race. 

 

Also, since you brought it up, a doctor charged with malpractice is a legal dispute, not a biological one.   As far as biology and medical practice goes, here is Dr. Rick Kittles pointing out how race is a crude proxy. 

 

[Guest Gee]

Let us know when you find a Mensa meeting full of anarchists.

Let me know when you find the libertarian meeting full of blacks, arabs and latinos.

[pretzelogik]

Let me know when you find the libertarian meeting full of blacks, arabs and latinos.

 

Touche!

 

Edit:  After having a prolonged and no doubt politically incorrect laugh about my upbraiding, I realized it may have been at the expense of insensitivity toward those with more than the median level of melanin in their skin. 

 

I don't think it would be going out on a limb to suggest that the ethnic groups listed above may be demographically underrepresented in Mensa, but I don't know that would hold true for libertarians/anarchists. (Why even bother with libertarians? I'd as soon play just the tip) 

 

My experience with those who would be identified as "white" has been near 100% rejection of anarchy, so I am not sure that assuming a near 100% anarchy rejection rate of those who would be identified as being "of color" is instructive.  It sure is funny, though.  La Raza Panthers of ISIL for Abolition of Government - LRPIAG for short.  I'll keep an eye out.

[mishochu]

Let me know when you find the libertarian meeting full of blacks, arabs and latinos.

 

Ha, we don't meet. At times it seems as if there are only a handful of us out there (and we don't all know each other). I live in the US and would guess that most of you have more black friends than I do. When so many African Americans insist that I'm not black (even though I can tell you that I'm not only African, but Nigerian, and even more specifically Ebira) what's the point in cultivating friendships like that?

 

In any case, what a friend said to me has become true. I declared one day midway through 2015 that I was a libertarian and it took just about six months to realize that being libertarian isn't nearly enough.

 

Edit: What that friend indicated was that it takes about 6 months for a libertarian to become an anarchist (if they're honest with themselves)

[Guest Gee]

Touche!

 

Edit:  After having a prolonged and no doubt politically incorrect laugh about my upbraiding, I realized it may have been at the expense of insensitivity toward those with more than the median level of melanin in their skin. 

 

I don't think it would be going out on a limb to suggest that the ethnic groups listed above may be demographically underrepresented in Mensa, but I don't know that would hold true for libertarians/anarchists. (Why even bother with libertarians? I'd as soon play just the tip) 

 

My experience with those who would be identified as "white" has been near 100% rejection of anarchy, so I am not sure that assuming a near 100% anarchy rejection rate of those who would be identified as being "of color" is instructive.  It sure is funny, though.  La Raza Panthers of ISIL for Abolition of Government - LRPIAG for short.  I'll keep an eye out.

 

These kind of things make a difference when you look at large numbers.

 

Ha, we don't meet. At times it seems as if there are only a handful of us out there (and we don't all know each other). I live in the US and would guess that most of you have more black friends than I do. When so many African Americans insist that I'm not black (even though I can tell you that I'm not only African, but Nigerian, and even more specifically Ebira) what's the point in cultivating friendships like that?

 

In any case, what a friend said to me has become true. I declared one day midway through 2015 that I was a libertarian and it took just about six months to realize that being libertarian isn't nearly enough.

 

What a friend said to you became true? I'm sorry I don't follow.

[rosencrantz]

Here are some links: 

http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v16/n10/abs/mp201185a.html(Heritability of IQ)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289608000305(IQ tests are not culturally biased)

http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html(Poor whites score the same as wealthy blacks)

http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1994egalitarianfiction.pdf(Scientists have different beliefs than what they say in public)

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1977-07996-001(The role of nurture when it comes to IQ)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886912003741(The average African IQ)

http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html(IQ scores drift apart)

http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/PPPL1.pdf(Heritability of IQ)

[st434u]

Now, are they measuring the IQ of people who live then and there? If so, how do they factor out the environment (war, famine, lack of education, worse parents, etc)? Are there any scores of SSA children who moved into higher IQ areas, etc?

Yes, there are scores of SSA children who moved elsewhere and scores of SSA children raised by parents of other races and of other socioeconomic statuses. Also, you're forgetting that part of what makes the environment and quality of parents is also captured by IQ scores. That is, a society made up of people with lower IQ will on average and all other things being equal, have more war, famine, etc, and parents with lower IQ will on average be worse parents by our standards.

 

Likewise, some people could be innately better at what IQ tests for (e.g., pattern recognition). The real question is: just as with singing ability, how much flexibility is there in improving IQ scores? Can innately untalented singers be made better, by how much? Analogously, what studies are there on trying to improve IQ scores through education?

Yes, some people are better at taking IQ tests than others. IQ only measures a subset of what intelligence is, not everything. Studies on education have found that you can increase the IQ of young children, but by the time they reach a certain age (around 9 iirc), almost all of the increases vanish. On the other hand, you can train especifically on performing better at IQ tests, by taking lots of IQ tests over and over again, and in that way you'll improve your IQ with most known tests. However, if someone comes up with an entirely new test, your score will only be affected slightly.

Let me know when you find the libertarian meeting full of blacks, arabs and latinos.

 

What is a "latino"? I think you mean mestizos. That is, people who are a roughly 50% and 50% mix of south or central american indian and european.

[mishochu]

What a friend said to you became true? I'm sorry I don't follow.

 

Sorry, I didn't actually state what my friend said...he essentially stated that it takes a libertarian about 6 months to become an anarchist if they are honest with themselves.