BaylorPRSer Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 The Mason symbol was brought up in a different thread. With all the rebel flag business lately, I've been wondering about symbols a lot, so I'll bring some questions here: 1. What is a symbol? 2. Is a symbol in the realm of philosophy? I guess another way to ask that would be is a symbol in the realm of sense data? 3. If they are not in the realm of philosophy, then are they in the realm of interpretation and subjective experience? 4. Can it be objectively determined that X is a symbol for Y? If so, how? 5. If it is in the realm of subjective experience and interpretation, then what would that mean as far as the rebel flag is concerned? Would it be valid for one to interpret it as a symbol of racism and another to not?
WasatchMan Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 2. Is a symbol in the realm of philosophy? I guess another way to ask that would be is a symbol in the realm of sense data? Yes, symbols exist in the realm of philosophy called epistemology. Just like concepts, they do not exist (besides their physical representation in some cases - but the ideas don't exist), however they integrate information and abstractions together which allow man to perceive what does exist at a higher level of cognition. They integrate a lot of language into a small package, which usually results in a loss of precision. Think of how information is contained in some symbols. All have to do is put out this symbol "$" and I have transmitted tons of information to you. Think of how much information the Cross transmits to Christians when they see that symbol. 1 1
shirgall Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 "Symbols are for the symbol-minded." -- George Carlin 1
PatrickC Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 YouTuber Justicar gives an interesting perspective on the confederate flag debarkle and the way symbols and flags are read and understood by individuals for often quite opposite reasons. The most compelling part starts at 9:36 when he discuses the use of the Star of David by Jewish American GI's during the second world war. Symbols can also be ceremonial too. Take the one minute silence that will take place this weekend in Britain, after the recent massacre of 30 Britons in Tunisia by Islamist terrorists. This is a way for people not connected to the tragedy personally. But is our best attempt at collectively showing empathy and compassion for the victims of that heinous crime. As well as a way to connect with each other over a dreadful event that could have happened to any one of us. Symbols are always subjective and can be used for good and bad. They can also be sentimental or ornamental too, which has often put me off them. They certainly can't replace philosophy in any meaningful and rational way of course, but they can have a place at times. 2
BaylorPRSer Posted July 3, 2015 Author Posted July 3, 2015 Video gave me some closure on this topic. With the $ example mentioned, there has to be a degree of objectivity to that, no? If over 99.9% of people in a given area are able to instantly know what a symbol means, how can we say they're completely subjective? Isn't a symbol somewhere in between subjective and objective?
PatrickC Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 Isn't a symbol somewhere in between subjective and objective? Well you could say their meaning is subjective, but they may have an objective purpose perhaps.
WasatchMan Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 With the $ example mentioned, there has to be a degree of objectivity to that, no? If over 99.9% of people in a given area are able to instantly know what a symbol means, how can we say they're completely subjective? Isn't a symbol somewhere in between subjective and objective? I think what Patrick is trying to say is that subjective is a subset to objective... Just kidding.. couldn't resist myself (inside joke) I believe he is making the argument that symbols are just containers for meaning and only hold that meaning as far as people understand and accept that meaning. There is nothing intrinsic in the symbol "$" that would make someone with no prior knowledge know that that meant a medium that stores value. I think an example would be to take gold. As has been argued a lot, gold has no intrinsic value, it only holds value in that it is a rare earth metal that is rather unique in its properties which make it a good store of value. If all of a sudden an asteroid got captured in the earth's orbit that was a quarter the size of the moon and was solid gold, gold we cease to be valuable (assuming we had something better than NASA to get us up into space ) The follow-up question would be, is all language then subjective as such? I think you could say that language is objective in the sense that a dictionary defines its meaning, but then how objective are dictionaries? They obviously change with time and evolve, so there is some subjectivity to it, but if we were to say all language is subjective, then we couldn't have conversations on this forum. A good way to think about may be that symbols are less precise than language, and are therefore more subjective than language.
Pepin Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 The Mason symbol was brought up in a different thread. With all the rebel flag business lately, I've been wondering about symbols a lot, so I'll bring some questions here: 1. What is a symbol? 2. Is a symbol in the realm of philosophy? I guess another way to ask that would be is a symbol in the realm of sense data? 3. If they are not in the realm of philosophy, then are they in the realm of interpretation and subjective experience? 4. Can it be objectively determined that X is a symbol for Y? If so, how? 5. If it is in the realm of subjective experience and interpretation, then what would that mean as far as the rebel flag is concerned? Would it be valid for one to interpret it as a symbol of racism and another to not? 1. A symbol is an existent to which a person projects abstracts properties. For instance, on my sink I have two handles, one with a blue symbol, the other with a red symbol. In my mind, I have abstracted the concept of heat, and subdivided it into the ranges of: hot, cold, and warm. I take this abstraction of hot, and for whatever reason decide that the color red will mean hot within the context of the sink. Likewise, I decide that the color blue will represent cold. So now when I come to that sink and am wondering what side is hot and what side is cold, I look at handle and recall the mental association I made, and I can figure out what side is what based off the association. When many people agree on the same association, the symbol can be used widely. Most everyone goes with the hot and cold symbols and will assume that they apply when going to just about any bathroom. 2. It is certainly in the realm of philosophy, read An Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology for more on that. A symbol is sense data which the mind perceives as a discrete entity. All this means is that it is something we can isolate from everything else. Letters are a good example of this because they are a basic unit which can be individually identified. I don't have to put much work into seeing the letter 'a' and telling it apart from everything else. 3. If you are trying to ask if the ascription of properties and behaviors is arbitrary, well it can be, but it doesn't really matter. For instance, we ascribe the property of "hot" to the color red. This isn't exactly arbitrary as there are many hot things which are red. Likewise, cold things are often blue, such as water and ice. It doesn't mean that "all hot things are red" or that "blue things can't be hot", but it does mean that those colors work a bit better than others. In other cases, it is completely arbitrary as to what symbol is chosen to represent something. What symbols we use to represent numbers is completely arbitrary, there is just as much reason for 'e' to mean 7 as 'i'. This doesn't mean that the symbol can't affect the viewer. A mathematician who works with a particularly badass looking number for instance might start to feel badass. 4. It can be determined that a symbol has a particular meaning for a particular person, but there is no objective meaning. For instance, we can easily establish that for me, red means hot. We can also establish that for the majority of the population, that red means hot. But this doesn't mean that there is any objectivity in the association, as the symbol is somewhat arbitrary. Getting to the topic of flags, it can be objectively determined that the majority of people associate the swastika with genocide. Some people might associate it with other things, such as the buddhist symbol for peace. Despite there being no objective meaning, it does not mean that it would be wise to get a swastika tattooed on your forehead, because even if you project something else onto a symbol, it is essential to know how other people to perceive it. I don't perceive the confederate flag as anything positive. 5. This gets into a weird area because of social norms. I don't like a lot of social norms, but I follow them because I understand that this is how the perception of the general population. I might disagree about tipping (which I don't), but I realize that I am going to come off as an asshold if I don't tip, so I follow the convention anyway. Though I think racial slurs are idiotic to find offensive, I still refrain from saying them because others find them offensive. My own pet peeve is the word "cunt". This is a word that people have projected so much disgust and horror onto, and I can't even to start to understand it. I think cunt is a beautiful word. It has this squareness to it, and even better, it has a punch to it. It is a word that have to put at the end of sentence just because of how it sounds. There is satisfaction to saying it, just like the word "alliteration". Yet despite this, I don't go around saying cunt because I acknowledge the general consensus about the word where I live. TLDR: Cunt is my confederate flag. 1
adamNJ Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 "Symbols are for the symbol-minded." -- George Carlin Aww, I was going to post exactly this
utopian Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 David Ottinger put together a very interesting post about symbolism used in a movie, and how symbolism is being used to persuade the masses in the media. I have not read it all as it is quite the long post, but I am sure you will find it just as interesting a read as I do. https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/44212-marxist-max-the-feminist-road-spoiler-central/
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