jgib Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 Not sure if this has been posted here before. I am fairly new to this so I hope I have done it correctly..... She sure sums up how I feel about it. 3
John Sambrook Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 I think that's a worthwhile video. Thank you for posting it. If you discuss feminism with other women, I'd be interested in how your viewpoint is received.
Frosty Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 I've seen this video just recently and quite frankly It's stuff like this that gives me a little bit more hope for humanity, there are honest women out there who acknowledge and support logical and fact based conclusions by caring enough to look at the statistics and make their own judgement outside of the feminist politically correct rhetoric. I get the impression that this isn't a popular position however, almost no women seem to voice this opinion or back it up openly, I guess the result is kind of what Lauren experienced, backlash from hordes of angry feminists. I have a lot of respect for people actually willing to stand up and back this position, these are the people who are for true equality.
Kevin Beal Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 I wonder what y'all think about equality outside of the statist context. As far as I can tell, equality means not pointing more guns at one sex over the other, or getting the profits of this gun waving at equal rates to each sex. I'd rather not have the guns in the first place, personally. Outside of statism, I'm not sure that I really see the value in gender equity. Are people deserving of equal dignity and respect? I don't think so. Are people deserving of the same opportunities? I would argue that they do not. I can't really think of any respect in which people actually, in reality, are equal or "deserve" (whatever that means) to be equal. Certainly anything immoral, such as theft or rape or murder should be sanctioned and condemned, but I don't see how making it about equality adds anything. For example, with the mass infant murder of girls in China. The fact that they are girls shouldn't really be the issue, but rather the fact that they are murdered. Screams of "equality!" in that situation don't make any sense to me, but perhaps that's my own failing. I don't see how each sex's issues deserve equal coverage or attention or funding or whatever else. People should focus on the issues that are important to them. I'm not going to stop a group trying to free women sex slaves in India and tell them that they need to focus on men's issues too. Obviously, this is just an argument from my own ignorance. Just because I can't understand it, doesn't make it false. I'm just curious why it's something that people feel is important. I don't think I've ever heard a more widely used and supported virtue. I hear "equality" more often than I hear "integrity" or "honesty". I just don't understand it... 2
Eternal Growth Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 Outside of statism, I'm not sure that I really see the value in gender equity. Are people deserving of equal dignity and respect? I don't think so. Are people deserving of the same opportunities? I would argue that they do not What about parenting (and by extension, education)? Does a gender variant child deserve equal dignity and respect from their parents as a gender conformant one? Should boys be treated differently to girls by the adults around them?
Archimedes Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 Deserve is funny word. I don't think humans deserve anything. We just live in this universe, some things happen to us, we choose how to react and we also plan our action in advance to be proactive. If we want something, we need to work for it. And even if we put all the work in, we might not get it, because somebody else wanted the same thing and outcompeted us. 1
Kevin Beal Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 What about parenting (and by extension, education)? Does a gender variant child deserve equal dignity and respect from their parents as a gender conformant one? Should boys be treated differently to girls by the adults around them? I don't see what this has to do with gender equality. A parent, by having a child has entered into a kind of contract to meet that child's different physiological, emotional and intellectual needs, whatever they may be. Equality implies sameness, in this case being treated the same, and I don't know what special needs gender variant children have. I suspect it's different for each one of them. I am personally very skeptical of this sort of attitude of treating it like it doesn't exist, but I don't have direct experience either, so... Gender equality, I'm convinced, is actually treating people differently based on gender, because they need to be treated in some way, differently. Rejecting equality as a virtue is treating people individually, I could argue. Part of what an individual is is their sex, and if generalities don't apply to that individual, then okay, just treat them in whatever way is appropriate, makes sense. To focus on gender equality specifically is looking at the person as a sex, rather than an individual. That's appropriate at times, speaking in generalities. I just don't think that people into equality realize that. And yes, boys and girls should absolutely be treated differently. Boys and girls learn and relate to the world very differently, generally speaking. Christina Hoff Somers, in her book, The War on Boys, explains in great detail why gender segregation, or at least different treatment can help boys and girls learn and grow. 1
Mister Mister Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 I wonder what y'all think about equality outside of the statist context. As far as I can tell, equality means not pointing more guns at one sex over the other, or getting the profits of this gun waving at equal rates to each sex. I'd rather not have the guns in the first place, personally. Outside of statism, I'm not sure that I really see the value in gender equity. Are people deserving of equal dignity and respect? I don't think so. Are people deserving of the same opportunities? I would argue that they do not. I can't really think of any respect in which people actually, in reality, are equal or "deserve" (whatever that means) to be equal. Certainly anything immoral, such as theft or rape or murder should be sanctioned and condemned, but I don't see how making it about equality adds anything. For example, with the mass infant murder of girls in China. The fact that they are girls shouldn't really be the issue, but rather the fact that they are murdered. Screams of "equality!" in that situation don't make any sense to me, but perhaps that's my own failing. I don't see how each sex's issues deserve equal coverage or attention or funding or whatever else. People should focus on the issues that are important to them. I'm not going to stop a group trying to free women sex slaves in India and tell them that they need to focus on men's issues too. Obviously, this is just an argument from my own ignorance. Just because I can't understand it, doesn't make it false. I'm just curious why it's something that people feel is important. I don't think I've ever heard a more widely used and supported virtue. I hear "equality" more often than I hear "integrity" or "honesty". I just don't understand it... I totally agree that "equality" is one of these political talking points that doesn't really make sense when analyzed. Of course there is the age-old conflict between equal treatment under the law, and equality of outcome. There is this weird idea that we should treat everyone the same, which sounds nice if you don't think about it, but I think is not possible as it is completely against human nature. As much as I try to be pleasant and curious and empathetic and reciprocal, I am never going to treat an attractive woman the same as an unattractive woman the same as an old woman the same as an old man, a homeless man, a man in a suit, a kid dressed as a "gangster" and so on. There's this weird thing in feminism where, women shouldn't be expected to put all this time and energy and money into their appearance, and I say, great! But at the same time, if a woman has put all that effort into her appearance, I'm supposed to treat her exactly the same as anyone else...WTF??? But this idea of a society where men and women are treated exactly the same, outside of basic moral standards, I'm not sure if it is possible. Yes you're right that people should focus on the issues important to them, and they have no obligation or responsibility to focus on the issues important to you. But then, feminists should be honest -- if their goal is to secure political and social advantages for women, then be honest about it. It's dishonest for them to say they're all about gender equality, but to ignore male circumcision, male victims of sexual assault and domestic violence, male suicide, family courts, and so on, but to complain "you're oppressing me" when employers don't want to pay for their birth control pills. Recently I saw some feminist on the John Stossel show, supporting that Obamacare is supposed to correct gender discrimination in healthcare (women tend to use more healthcare, so their healthcare costs more). He brought up the fact that, conversely, men pay more in auto insurance, because we tend to get in more accidents. "That's different", she said. It's just dishonest, hypocritical, special pleading. Furthermore, they have actively censored, slandered, and threatened people who advocate for men's issues. So it's not quite as simple as you focus on women's issues, other people focus on men's issues. What about parenting (and by extension, education)? Does a gender variant child deserve equal dignity and respect from their parents as a gender conformant one? Should boys be treated differently to girls by the adults around them? Great question! I think the answer is - you treat boys and girls the same, while respecting the difference in trends. Parents need to be aware of the basic tendency to neglect boys, and coddle girls, which they should try to overcome, and to give both boys and girls what they need physically, emotionally intellectually. As a society, however, we have to respect that there will tend to be differences in boys and girls, and not expect them to be exactly the same. As you probably know, these days boys are being punished in schools for not being more like girls. 2
Donnadogsoth Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Not sure if this has been posted here before. I am fairly new to this so I hope I have done it correctly..... She sure sums up how I feel about it. Thanks for posting this, jgib. It's a good compilation of the basic stats needed to level feminism in the thinking mind.
Kevin Beal Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Yes you're right that people should focus on the issues important to them, and they have no obligation or responsibility to focus on the issues important to you. But then, feminists should be honest -- if their goal is to secure political and social advantages for women, then be honest about it. It's dishonest for them to say they're all about gender equality, but to ignore male circumcision, male victims of sexual assault and domestic violence, male suicide, family courts, and so on, but to complain "you're oppressing me" when employers don't want to pay for their birth control pills. Totally agree. I think pointing out the double standards is fantastic, and I really appreciate the video in the OP, and the recent video of Lauren Southern at a Slutwalk. My problem with feminism, as you rightly point out, is with the dishonesty, the hypocrisy, and also about the demonization of men, and the extreme resistance to taking even the slightest bit of responsibility for their own lives, "safe spaces". Oh, hell, I hate pretty much all of it. The part I don't care about is the lack of equality the way that many men's groups seem to want to focus on. Many people want to focus on fitting their own issues into the box called "equality", when there are plenty of other virtues that are clearer and more accurate. Some people think that getting all of their medical and school expenses paid into college is equality, for fuck's sake! Equality seems to be one of these infinitely flexible buzzwords that people can make mean anything they want to. It's a pet peeve of mine. Hearing that word makes me cringe just a little. But maybe I'm too cynical 1
Mister Mister Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Many people want to focus on fitting their own issues into the box called "equality", when there are plenty of other virtues that are clearer and more accurate. Some people think that getting all of their medical and school expenses paid into college is equality, for fuck's sake! Equality seems to be one of these infinitely flexible buzzwords that people can make mean anything they want to. It's a pet peeve of mine. Hearing that word makes me cringe just a little. But maybe I'm too cynical Yes I totally agree. I was thinking of making a list of these words and do a video/article about why their vague definitions cause problems.
jgib Posted July 15, 2015 Author Posted July 15, 2015 I think that's a worthwhile video. Thank you for posting it. If you discuss feminism with other women, I'd be interested in how your viewpoint is received. I do freely express these opinions but I will say it is not often directly connected to a discussion about feminism. I think most of the women I have as friends have similar opinions, or at least they are not opposed to having discussions about these issues. I have spent much of my life in rural settings and I am not sure if that makes a difference on perspective. I think having the same standards for morality and looking for similar virtues between the sexes is a sensible thing, but I do not think a blanket stroke of equality is healthy or doable. Men and women are very different and I think we should embrace the differences. I am at a loss why men should be more like women or vice versa. The word equality seems to be connected to privilege in some minds. Why would one want to be given something without having worked for it? Why would one take advantage of another strictly for monetary gain? Why would a women physically strike a man and not expect reciprocation? Why would parents of children use them in a power struggle? There are many things that don't make sense to me. I have been told I think logically and have a logical mind and there is just no place in this world for that kind of thinking! I have also been told I am naive, I suppose that could be true. I agree that the word equality seems to be one of those buzz words that people like to toss around without really thinking about what it actually, truly means in the big picture. RoseCodex I believe boys and girls do need to be treated differently growing up. They both need emotional, physical and intellectual support but I that can look very different for a boy than it can for a girl. Again if we generalize too much it is not a good thing so the needs of the individual child have to come into play as well. On a bit of a side note, a discussion I had a couple of days ago was about women, like Lauren, speaking out about these issues and how it certainly is the more physically attractive ones that have the larger effect. I suppose whatever it takes to get the information out and into the minds of others is a good thing.
John Sambrook Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 I agree with you, when you write that a blanket stroke of equality is not healthy or doable. People, in general, do not seem to think deeply about these issues. I think Ayn Rand once said or wrote "There is nothing quite so naive as cynicism." I like that quote very much and have had it confirmed for me on different occasions. I like the audio lectures that are available from estore.aynrand.org. I have found them to be a great value for the money. People seem to drop the context when discussing issues that concern them, such as justice, or egalitarianism, etc. It's a bit disappointing, and I've generally gotten to the point where I don't feel the need to jump in deeply on every such discussion. Life is precious and short, and I am becoming more and more mindful of how I choose to invest my time.
Mister Mister Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 RoseCodex I believe boys and girls do need to be treated differently growing up. They both need emotional, physical and intellectual support but I that can look very different for a boy than it can for a girl. Again if we generalize too much it is not a good thing so the needs of the individual child have to come into play as well. Could you elaborate? You probably have more experience in this than I do. I think I understand what you mean, and I wouldn't expect good parenting to look like treating boys and girls EXACTLY the same. In the same respect, a child who is a genius intellect will have different needs than a child who is mentally handicapped, a child who is athletic will have different needs than a child who is physically awkward, and so on. So it would seem important to me to respond to the needs of the individual child, and to recognize that these needs would be different in general between the sexes. But I think what I was getting at is that the same basic methods and standards of parenting should apply equally to all children - reasoning, negotiation, non-aggression, and to be open to the needs of the child, rather than molding them into what we think they should be.
PatrickC Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 The part I don't care about is the lack of equality the way that many men's groups seem to want to focus on. Yeah, I think the MRM see equality as their main 'gotcha' for feminists. But of course equality for feminists means equality of outcome (quota's). Whereas for the MRM it mostly means equality of opportunity (meritocracy). So the debate becomes an endless circle jerk about who gets to use this magical word 'equality'.
Donnadogsoth Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Yeah, I think the MRM see equality as their main 'gotcha' for feminists. But of course equality for feminists means equality of outcome (quota's). Whereas for the MRM it mostly means equality of opportunity (meritocracy). So the debate becomes an endless circle jerk about who gets to use this magical word 'equality'. And to the conservative it might mean equality of preference of association (discrimination).
PatrickC Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 And to the conservative it might mean equality of preference of association (discrimination). Yeah, it's funny, being thought of as 'discriminating' was once thought of as being 'learned'.
LovePrevails Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 it is literally one of the best introductory videos I have ever seen on this subject and I have been researching gender issues for a couple of years. Thank you!
jgib Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 it is literally one of the best introductory videos I have ever seen on this subject and I have been researching gender issues for a couple of years. Thank you![/size] You are welcome.
AccuTron Posted September 8, 2015 Posted September 8, 2015 I hear "equality" more often than I hear "integrity" or "honesty". I just don't understand it... Ooh, ooh, trigger word...I think I'll start a new post about how girls are soooooo coaxed to be good at achievements, but I NEVER hear girls guided by mainstream feminist efforts to be HONEST.
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