iBlagg Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Had started a topic elsewhere from the assumption that we don't have free will. The discussion of how much free will we do or don't have was so good I felt it deserved it's own thread. Plus lot's people know a lot more on this than me and I'd like to hear what you think. Personally I can't see how we can have free will. Our minds work like complex pieces of machinery that can be predicted and manipulated to an extent. Practically in the moment it doesn't matter, we have the illusion of free will and have to make decisions based on whatever we think is relevant at the time. And a little prediction, we hear people say 'we went to the moon and discovered the Earth.' In the future I think we'll say 'We developed Artificial Intelligence and discovered ourselves'. How much Free Will do you think we have?
neeeel Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 determinism is pretty much a banned subject here, so dont be surprised if you get little or no response.
TheRobin Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 The whole topic of determinism/free will is actually banned here (see board rules). Reason being that it never leads anywhere productive and just takes up space (short version). Anyway, if you desperately want to discuss it, feel free to do so in the chat. I'm happy to give you some thoughts on it should I be there by chance 1
Agalloch Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 FYI, determinism, and therefore lack of freewill, isn't an acceptable topic on the forums, and it says so during sign up. The topic has been done to death, is completely self-contradictary and wastes server resources.I know you couldn't help posting about it, because you have no free will, but the admins couldn't help banning it, I can't help making this post and you probably can't help being critical of all this, despite the fact your there was therefore no point in you making this case in the first place... 4
Carl Green Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Our minds work like complex pieces of machinery that can be predicted and manipulated to an extent. What exactly do you mean by "like ... machinery" and how has this been scientifically proven to your satisfaction? 1
iBlagg Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 The post is more of a question. I'm saying I believe we'll find that we don't have it. But I'm asking what do you think? As a lot of people round here know more on the subject than me. I certainly don't have the definitive answer. But to argue against Free Will with all the references and what not. It'll have to wait until at least Saturday before I have the time to do it justice. Until then I hope people dive in and share there thoughts
Carl Green Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Is the reason you believe either side, (and with this I'm not trying to convince you of either) based on the idea that "minds are like complex machinery". If that's the case, and you don't have a good idea of what that means, what's the reason for your belief either way?
iBlagg Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 my afternoon has just been freed up. Why do I think we don't have freewill? Part 1 My own untested, uneducated thoughts on the subject. It's clear we don't have absolute freewill. We can't change who we are at the drop of a hat It's impossible. We're defined by our life experiences, genetics, hormones what we saw on the news this morning. Theirs a book called Buddism Plain and Simple by Steve Hagan. He in a describes thoughts like travelling through a Jungle. The first time is slow and difficult you have to hack your way through some tough bush. The next time isn't so bad cos' you already cleared stuff. Keep travelling to the same place and eventually you could run on a path cleared by constantly going to this place. Although not a scientific book it makes a lot of sense. When you learn a new skill like kicking a field goal you're terrible at first you have to consciously think about it. Keep doing it and you get better. What's happening is the neurons in your brain are firing off in a way they're not used to. They're hacking through the Jungle, one day they might run. As a baby our brains are much more supple at forming connections or killing connections as we grow old this ability fades (until one day we're lecturing grandchildren about why our generation had good taste in music). If this is what happens when we learn a muscle memory skill what about when we get angry? What if we get angry watching the news and we always watch the news. You can apply this to everything, I guess it's your attitudes (that's right plural) to everything. Through the course of our lives we create responses to everything. We copy our parents, friends and family, are influenced by media. Did all those girls decide Ugg Boots are great out of freewill? Or was it more to do with the herd mentality that is genetic in us? Another section in same book talks about trying to pin down who you are. We consciously think 'I am me, I think therefore I am'. But who are you? Let's say you wake up, as you. With all your opinion, thoughts memories and attitudes to the world. On the way to work a clean shaven business man wearing a sharp suit stands next to you on the subway. You notice he smells of weed. Until that moment you never thought of stoners as businessmen. Sitting on the train next stop a skinhead punk rocker heavily tattooed with swastikas helps an old lady onto the train and gives her his seat. By the time you arrive at work you're no longer the person you were when you woke up. Note: Wastern thinking generally tries the freaze their view of the world. 10 commandments, right and wrong etc. Eastern thinking is much more fluid. Buddhism in general sees the world in constant flux and our lives are like streams. So the idea that you'd be a different person in each moment is more easily accepted in Eastern culture. I don't understand it but those experiences are in your brain, the next time you think of tattooed swastika people the neurons in your brain will fire in a slightly different way. Same with businessmen and weed. All the little life experience help programme our brain to react to the world. And in that sense we don't have free will. It's preprogrammed behaviour. In the next moment we can't freewill change our attitude to something else. Not without something externally influencing us to do so. Guess that would be my answer to Carls question about the mind being like machinery. That's what it is to me, think you hear that voice speaking your language? No you don't, the ear transforms sound waves into... electric pluses I think? (someone will correct me) Then the language part of our minds fire neurons, you put it into context, more neurons fire and hey presto you're having a conversation. If we had absolute freewill, couldn't I decide not to understand English for the day? That could be fun everyone I meet just blah blah blah blah... ahhh this is relaxing not having to deal with stuff. Part 2 Heads or tails? What could be more free will than heads or tails. But wait, as a child I heard people say always go heads it lands more often. Has my free will been corrupted. What if I'm writing my results down HHHHHTHTHH at this point I'm thinking go tails now, so many heads it's surely it's going to land tails a little more. What if I see myself as a particularly scientific minded person who understands probability? Stick with heads a coin toss has no memory. My ego grows as I see myself above superstitious thinking people like those who keep track of lottery results. So you can see already a free will heads or tails our free will can be affected by who we are. Time to bring science in. This link is heavy reading about how scientists have observed the process of a thought being made before we're couscous of that thought. The implication being how can we have free will if we've already made our minds up before we know it. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0021612 Crallask in another thread responded with this:- http://hplusmagazine.com/2015/05/08/new-algorithm-illuminates-free-will/ Some evidence that our subconscious minds make decisions but we have the freewill to change our minds and override them. Score 1 for freewill. Again personally I think the next step would be finding out what would cause our conscious mind to step in and change things. This is far as I go, stuff about quantium mechanics and free will is above my head and something I need to have a look at. Hope this has been interesting, who will decide to share there thoughts or not?
iBlagg Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 determinism is pretty much a banned subject here, so dont be surprised if you get little or no response. interesting since my other thread I specifically said I don't want to discuss determinism freewill then people did anyway. Which is why I created this thread to meet that demand. Apologies for breaking rules.
jpahmad Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Personally I can't see how we can have free will. Our minds work like complex pieces of machinery that can be predicted and manipulated to an extent. "You", and that which drives your will, are one in the same thing. Everyone who attempts to tackle this subject matter seems to fall into the trappings of dualism. Determinism and free will can be reconciled with basic Aristotelian logic. I am X X moves me Therefore I move me ("I" being the self)
Carl Green Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Guess that would be my answer to Carls question about the mind being like machinery. That's what it is to me, think you hear that voice speaking your language? No you don't, the ear transforms sound waves into... electric pluses I think? (someone will correct me) Then the language part of our minds fire neurons, you put it into context, more neurons fire and hey presto you're having a conversation. My point is that your belief (as in what you believe to be true which is that free will doesn't exist at all) is based on something you don't know for certain. Perhaps I'm interpreting your statements incorrectly though. My life experiences have made me determine that it's best that I know something before I believe it to be true. Personally, I don't believe either to be the truth yet, because I don't know. So I go with what makes the most sense to me as being the most likely situation while keeping in mind that it's not necessarily true.
Guest Gee Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 http://hplusmagazine.com/2015/05/08/new-algorithm-illuminates-free-will/ Some evidence that our subconscious minds make decisions but we have the freewill to change our minds and override them. Score 1 for freewill. If science has demonstrated we have free will in one situation then it has proven determinism false.
MrNlul77 Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 One of the oldest questions in the book. It's unanswerable at this point in time(maybe never) As we don't know, the most logical action to take is to act as if we do have free will. If we act as if we don't have free will, then theres no point in discussing moral theories, everything would be pre-determined and nobody would be responsible for their actions. Even though The facts aren't known, IMO, Determinists are illogical.
jpahmad Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 One of the oldest questions in the book. It's unanswerable at this point in time(maybe never) As we don't know, the most logical action to take is to act as if we do have free will. If we act as if we don't have free will, then theres no point in discussing moral theories, everything would be pre-determined and nobody would be responsible for their actions. Even though The facts aren't known, IMO, Determinists are illogical. It is answerable. I just answered it for you. "You", and that which drives your will, are one in the same thing. Everyone who attempts to tackle this subject matter seems to fall into the trappings of dualism. Determinism and free will can be reconciled with basic Aristotelian logic. I am X X moves me Therefore I move me ("I" being the self)
MrNlul77 Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 It is answerable. I just answered it for you. Ive probably missed an obvious point, but I don't see how that answers it?. To me it seems you've only stated that "I" move myself. Whether I chose (free will) to move myself or whether my movement was determined in some way, is still unanswered as far as I understand. Subconsciously, could causal factors determin the options which are presented to my conscious. Then I use "free will" to decide upon and choose which option would produce the best outcome with regards my objective. As I said I may be missing an obvious point, It just doesn't seem black and white to me.
labmath2 Posted July 26, 2015 Posted July 26, 2015 No one advocates for a position that says people are fully autonomous beings. The question is, how much freedom do you associate with people's decision? At the very least we all understand experience, environment and genes make up a large part of a persons identity. But is there more to an individual outside those three things? What if we rephrase the question? If we have two identical universe,is it possible for it to diverge (provided the only way it can happen is if one person can make different choices with all other things being equal)? The first part is important because it helps us to know who is who since most people we know are already have a fixed identity. The second part is less useful since it doesn't improve how we interact with the world.
jpahmad Posted July 26, 2015 Posted July 26, 2015 Ive probably missed an obvious point, but I don't see how that answers it?. To me it seems you've only stated that "I" move myself. Whether I chose (free will) to move myself or whether my movement was determined in some way, is still unanswered as far as I understand. Subconsciously, could causal factors determin the options which are presented to my conscious. Then I use "free will" to decide upon and choose which option would produce the best outcome with regards my objective. As I said I may be missing an obvious point, It just doesn't seem black and white to me. Ive probably missed an obvious point, but I don't see how that answers it?. To me it seems you've only stated that "I" move myself. Whether I chose (free will) to move myself or whether my movement was determined in some way, is still unanswered as far as I understand. Subconsciously, could causal factors determin the options which are presented to my conscious. Then I use "free will" to decide upon and choose which option would produce the best outcome with regards my objective. As I said I may be missing an obvious point, It just doesn't seem black and white to me. Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO35eHxJvkI
Agalloch Posted July 26, 2015 Posted July 26, 2015 Since we've been talking about a bunch of genetic/epigenetic stuff lately regarding r/k selection and intelligence, I think discussing that material in the context of free will vs. determinism is fine as it's a totally understandable question. I'd prefer to avoid free will vs. determinism debates from the ground up without referencing this new information, but if people have good arguments, I'm always open to new information. I'm also happy to schedule people for the show if they would like to discuss determinism with Stefan directly. Will someone who can, 1-up this! It always feels great ot be reminded we are on a forum run by people who think and consider things reasonably instead of blindly applying rules.
WasatchMan Posted July 26, 2015 Posted July 26, 2015 Maybe one way to think about how much free will we have is to analogize it to a sport like basketball. When you first start you, can barely dribble, can't shoot 3's, can't do lay-ups - you have almost no freedom to do what you want on a basketball court. As you practice, you start gaining skills that allow you to do more and more what you want to do - your freedom to choose has expanded. With free will, the more self knowledge you have and the ability to introspect and challenge your brains immediate choices, the more free will you have.
MrNlul77 Posted July 26, 2015 Posted July 26, 2015 Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO35eHxJvkI We're made up of atoms(star dust) but how that results in consciousness is unknown. Again, I may be getting mixed up, I believe we have free will; however, For example, if I was raised by psychopaths and everything I'd experienced/knew was in some way psychopathic, I believe that the choices that would be presented to my conscious (free will) by my subconcious, would be psychopathic. In the same way as culture will in some way determin my beliefs/opinions. Without external intervention, with regards to experiencing a different way/knowledge/the truth/reality, then my choices (free will) will be determined as my subconscious doesn't have much to work with and couldn't present my conscious with anything other than psychopathic options. We can't explain how we have consciousness and we can't know for sure, whether we entirely have free will. I believe are subconscious decisions are determined due to causal effects and then we are presented with conscious choices. It is these conscious choices that we interpret as "free will". With regards to everything being pre determined, everything being already set out and that we have no choice, I believe that to be illogical as it would negate my life and all that brings happiness. When I said determined, I didn't mean determined since the beginning of time and couldn't be changed.
jpahmad Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 We're made up of atoms(star dust) but how that results in consciousness is unknown. We can't explain how we have consciousness Why does consciousness need to be explained?
MrNlul77 Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Why does consciousness need to be explained? Again, i may be missing something, I referred to the fact that we can't explain consciousness as the video you posted jumps straight from we're made of stardust to, we experience some things, to we have free will. We don't know how physical matter results in consciousness and we don't know how that consciousness translates into the appearance of free will.
A4E Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 With regards to everything being pre determined, everything being already set out and that we have no choice, I believe that to be illogical as it would negate my life and all that brings happiness. I am very interested in what you mean by "it would negate my life and all that brings happiness.". Could you elaborate? To be perfectly honest I laughed out loud when I read it, but I am very open to being schooled. 2
Crallask Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Here's a very good video dealing with what the human consciousness might be.
MrNlul77 Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I am very interested in what you mean by "it would negate my life and all that brings happiness.". Could you elaborate? To be perfectly honest I laughed out loud when I read it, but I am very open to being schooled. Firstly, before I address your question, the fact you laughed out loud made me wonder why I you would laugh at yourself for not understanding something?. You may have grown up being laughed at for not understanding things, that sounds like an issue you need to do some work on. Secondly, prepare to be schooled, haha If everything is pre determined then nobodys life or the things we achieve or that make us happy would mean anything. If my actions are predetermined then nothing has anything to do with me, everything is already set out and my actions mean nothing. The things that make me proud of achieving would have no meaning and it would be irrational to be proud of myself for something that ive not in reality achieved. To me, its like being proud of the fact that i can breath.
A4E Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Firstly, before I address your question, the fact you laughed out loud made me wonder why I you would laugh at yourself for not understanding something?. You may have grown up being laughed at for not understanding things, that sounds like an issue you need to do some work on. But... I thought you free willers dont believe in causality. And yes, you caught me. I was not specific enough. Sorry. I ment that I was very interested in how it negates all life achievements and happiness. Secondly, prepare to be schooled, haha If everything is pre determined then nobodys life or the things we achieve or that make us happy would mean anything. Would it not mean anything? How can you say that? A movie is a predetermined universe that will play out the same each time it is played. Do the achievements of the characters in the movie not mean anything? You say that everything someone achieve does not mean anything, so then lets take out all the achievements of the hero in the movie. Now the movie should be the same according to you. Right? If my actions are predetermined then nothing has anything to do with me, You are a part of this universe, so a lot of things has a lot to do with you. Please correct me if I am wrong. everything is already set out and my actions mean nothing. So you think I could have replied to you if you did not make that post? How do you have a profile here that everyone can see if your actions mean nothing? What would happen to your neighborhood if everything you have done was erased from time? I think your actions mean a lot more than nothing. The things that make me proud of achieving would have no meaning Ok lets take out the things you have achieved from the history of the universe. Is the universe the same today? and it would be irrational to be proud of myself for something that ive not in reality achieved. Your biological life form achieved those things in our reality. So you could accept being proud rationally, if only for being that life form. But yes, you have a point in that a rock would not make sense if it was feeling proud about rolling down a hill. The feeling of being proud is I think a reward in your brain, to make you want to do more of what apparently is working to make your life or something else better. So in this setting, for your life form, it makes sense to get this reward. To me, its like being proud of the fact that i can breath. I am proud of being a character in a movie. Are you saying you are not?? Its so exciting!! What will happen next!???
jpahmad Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Firstly, before I address your question, the fact you laughed out loud made me wonder why I you would laugh at yourself for not understanding something?. You may have grown up being laughed at for not understanding things, that sounds like an issue you need to do some work on. Secondly, prepare to be schooled, haha If everything is pre determined then nobodys life or the things we achieve or that make us happy would mean anything. If my actions are predetermined then nothing has anything to do with me, everything is already set out and my actions mean nothing. The things that make me proud of achieving would have no meaning and it would be irrational to be proud of myself for something that ive not in reality achieved. To me, its like being proud of the fact that i can breath. You have pointed to a disconcerting, problem, however, this problem can be circumvented if you equate the self (you) with the universe, or a fragment of the universe. It's the only way. I look at it like this: the self = a material body = a "piece of the universe playing out" transitively, the self = "a piece of the universe playing out" So, as far as taking credit for achievements and taking personal responsibility, both the universe and the self get credit. Because the are in a way the same thing. Now, before i get jumped on, I just want to say that this dilemma, that of a causal universe and personal responsibility, caused me great grief for a few days in a row as I was searching for a way out of the paradox. But as soon as I worked through this formula in my head. I felt much better and back in control of things with a new conviction and feeling of autonomy. Here's a very good video dealing with what the human consciousness might be. At 5:10 he says that consciousness is the ultimate product of the brain. I would say that action is the ultimate product of the brain. Consciousness is just an effect that we experience. He seems to be starting off on a false premise right away This would be like saying the experience of being a dog is the ultimate product of the dog brain 1
MrNlul77 Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Here's a very good video dealing with what the human consciousness might be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpUVot-4GPM Interesting video, thanks for posting. I may have missed something, but it didnt explain how we have consciousnes. As the Stuart Hameroff, said we dont really know what consciousness is (other than some sort of quantum effect in micro tubuals?) and knowing how to reproduce it is a very long way off. I enjoyed watching it tho, thanks again.
thebeardslastcall Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 With a compatibilist viewpoint you can see how Determinism, Free Will, and personal responsibility all go together and are not opposing ideas. People often include the supposed logical conclusions of Determinism or Free Will into the definitions putting the definitions in opposition when they need not be. Just as people who include the conclusions of their God with the definition of their God and thus define opposition to their religion out of existence, but this is an erroneous way to do things. In religion is shows with people defining God as "good" and thus atheist as, by definition, "bad". Not the best example, since I don't believe in God, but the point is that if you define contradiction into the word then you will only ever see concepts as contradictory, without ever comparing the actual underlying concepts to see if they are really in conflict or not. Many anti-free willers simply take the stance because they have defined it a specific way, but the real question is often whether or not they believe in personal responsibility and some kind of choice in life. What is important isn't so much whether you believe in Determinism or Free Will, but how you treat and behave with other people and how you hold or don't hold them responsible and the consequences of treating people different ways and whether or not you're willing to acknowledge the realistic consequences of different beliefs and actions.
MrNlul77 Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 A movie character is fictional, it has came out of a persons mind, the character only exist as part of that fictional reality, through a persons choices the character has been created. If we were to take a character out of a movie, then the movie wouldn't be the origionaly fiction that the person chose it to be. A person Is not fictional, they exist in empirical reality and their effect on reality is measurable. Im going to have to bow out of this argument as I never intended to get into it in the first place. Initially I passed a quick of the cuff comment, which I thought was self explanatory ( oh how wrong I was haha ) and thought nothing of it, next I know I'm into a big debate ( I'll be sure to not make that mistake again, everydays a school day ). I act as if I have free as I can't prove it either way, and I'd like to believe that Its actually my choices that are the cause of my achievements and will count towards achieving my future goals. Be free, be well and be happy 1
labmath2 Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 The movie comment is something i have thought about. If we are characters in a movie, we will always choose what the plot is. Its like superman in all superhero movies, he has no choice but to engage the bad guys, but he doesn't know that. In fact there are moments when superman agonizes over a decision. He doesn't know that is just part of the plot, and then he subsequently makes a difficult decision. If the creator were to write a character into the movie that came to convince superman that he is in a movie and is really not in control of his actions, i am sure superman would have many good counter points. As a movie goer, you would understand that those counter arguments are also part of the plot. Though this kind of mental exercise is fun, its unproductive. Its best we live as if that isn't true because if it is, we wouldn't know it. Even if we did, we would be powerless to change it. Although, i think it will make for a good short.
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 So, as far as taking credit for achievements and taking personal responsibility, both the universe and the self get credit. Because the are in a way the same thing. I wouldn't give the universe credit as it did not achieve anything. You don't say "well done Nebula on looking very pretty today". 1
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