People breaking up contact without notice

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[st434u]

This happens a lot to me, also. But not just with people from FDR.

 

I think in many cases it's due to the fact that my honesty and straightforwardness is toxic to their false selfs, and they don't wanna give that up and heal, so they stop talking to me altogether. Explaining why they're gonna stop creates too much of an opportunity for introspection, so they'd rather avoid that. This never happens with people with whom I remain distant, such as people I do business with, or others with whom I don't even try to talk about feelings and other important and often unexamined topics.

 

Because of this, it's always a disappointement when that happens. In my experience, even most people who say they want to heal and improve their lives, don't really want that. They just want to pretend like that's what they're trying to do. It can get overwhelming, like you're living in some sort of twilight zone, and you're the only one sane enough to see past the delusions that people create for themselves. It can be very lonely. But after years of experience, what happened to me is that I stopped putting so much trust in others. I only trust myself, and if others want my trust, they have to earn it. People will always say and promise a lot, in order to get you to trust them, but trust can't be given, it has to be earned, and earning it means actions, not just words.

 

Because I don't really trust others until they've proven they can be trusted (which is hardly ever the case), it's less of a disappointment when I realize they can't be trusted.

 

Or rather, my level of trust in others is based on their actions. I might trust someone in some areas, but not in others. Like I can trust someone won't steal from me, but maybe I won't trust that they're really trying to heal emotionally the way they say they are.

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[st434u]

Have you come across this change of behavior as well (in terms of becoming more aggressive / honest)?

 

Did you also have an internal struggle at the beginning?

I don't think aggressive is the word I'd use, but yes, straightforward and honest, with the people with whom I'm interested in having good relationships with.

 

It was a struggle in the beginning as I was realizing that others in my life were not interested in this kind of approach to relationships. They were not interested in introspection and improvement, even though they always said they were.

 

If I may also ask, who initiated the conversations in your relationships? I always found myself being the idiot running after people, as they rarely ever contact me to meet up or even talk.

The conversations that required introspection and emotional vulnerability? Sometimes I'd start them, sometimes they'd start them and then back out when they saw that things got real.

 

Or maybe you meant something else. Were you talking about romantic relationships? Being the man I'm always the one who has to pursue at first.

[kathryn]

It seems somewhat dishonest to talk to someone about not wanting to talk to them. A person's silence communicates a great deal. Dismissing that silence by saying there is something wrong with the person who is cutting off communication, or believing there must be something wrong with yourself, isn't productive. All that is in your sphere of control is to examine the relationship and try to reach out, but by not reciprocating they are, indeed, responding. 

 

Have you heard of the Gestalt prayer? I've found it a helpful and comforting reminder as I am learning to set better boundaries with people: 

 

I do my thing and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations,
And you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I,
and if by chance we find each other, it's beautiful.
If not, it can't be helped.

[Dermot]

I like that prayer Kathryn. Thanks for sharing it. 

[st434u]

It seems somewhat dishonest to talk to someone about not wanting to talk to them. A person's silence communicates a great deal. Dismissing that silence by saying there is something wrong with the person who is cutting off communication, or believing there must be something wrong with yourself, isn't productive. All that is in your sphere of control is to examine the relationship and try to reach out, but by not reciprocating they are, indeed, responding. 

 

Silence, by definition, doesn't communicate anything. Honesty requires communication. Thus totally ignoring someone can't be honest towards them. That doesn't mean that it's wrong to do that, sometimes you shouldn't be honest with some people. But I think you're wrong to think that it's honest towards someone to refuse to communicate with them and not tell them about it.

 

Likewise, it can't be dishonest to tell someone that I no longer want to communicate with them in the future, if that's indeed what I intend to do.

 

If someone stops communicating with me and I don't know why, I may think they're dead. I may think they've been arrested for a crime. I may think they hate me. I may think a lot of things, and their silence in and of itself doesn't communicate anything to me about why they're no longer talking to me, and it doesn't communicate if that's a temporary thing or if it's permanent.

 

If instead they talked to me and told me that they no longer want to communicate with me, and explained why, then that would be appreciated and I'd consider it an honest thing for them to do.

 

Every time I've decided to stop communicating with someone with whom I had some sort of emotional connection, I told them about it and explained why. They never bothered me again and I think they always appreciated being told that this was my intention. I was never left asking myself questions about whether I should've told them or not, and they were never left asking themselves questions as to why I stopped talking to them and if they should try to reach out or not.

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[NumberSix]

I can only speculate without having seen the events in person.  You may be revealing personal emotional information too soon in your friendships.  Typically people only reveal intimate details to close friends they have known for years, who have earned mutual trust and understanding.  It is wrong to expect high levels of emotional intimacy from a person you hardly know.  I also find that many FDR members expect empathy from others as if it were a right, again this must be earned.  At the same time these FDR members are oblivious to the feelings of the people they are interacting with, it is one-way empathy for them.  Feel my pain, while I ignore your feelings.

[Devon Gibbons]

I can only speculate without having seen the events in person.  You may be revealing personal emotional information too soon in your friendships.  Typically people only reveal intimate details to close friends they have known for years, who have earned mutual trust and understanding.  It is wrong to expect high levels of emotional intimacy from a person you hardly know.  I also find that many FDR members expect empathy from others as if it were a right, again this must be earned.  At the same time these FDR members are oblivious to the feelings of the people they are interacting with, it is one-way empathy for them.  Feel my pain, while I ignore your feelings.

I had to do a double-check of my own trust expectations. I re-listened to this podcast, I've found helpful.

 

http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/2832/emotional-dumping-dangers-of-taking-empathy-hostages-

[FDRenthusiast]

I haven't had intimate one-on-one dinners with anyone I've met through FDR but I've found it very difficult to connect with FDR fans in my brief experience with them.  I understand that Stefan wants us to hold ourselves to higher standards and I completely agree with that but I found the people that I met through the FDR meetup group to be very disapproving of anyone who doesn't go along with every single argument made in FDR.  For example, I was pressured, within 5 minutes of first meeting an FDR fan, about why I even talked to my parents, even though he knew nothing about my relationship with my parents.  This seemed to be enough to make me not very worthy of their time - at least for 2 of them. Do you still talk to your parents?  If the FDR people you met are like some of  the FDR people I've met, this may be enough to deem you not worthy of their time.  

 

Based on my conversation with FDR fans and phone calls into the show from FDR listeners, I know that some listeners will drop friends, lovers, and family members like flies if they're not atheist, if they are at all patriotic to the US, or if they vote, etc.  I love FDR but some of the fans of this show really seem totally uncompromising in who they're willing to let into their life.  Also, Stefan has spoken out against women dying their hair - which I disagree with since I dye my hair - and he's called these women "liars" so even dying your hair may make you enough of a "liar" to be shunned by hard core FDR adherents.

Also, in your profile picture, it seems that maybe you're wearing makeup.  Stefan has talked about how women "lie" by wearing makeup so this may also be a reason some in the FDR crowd are shunning you.  I'm not saying all FDR listeners are so easily disapproving but if you're talking about hard-core fans who post on this forum or who go to FDR Meetups, my experience tells me that it's not unlikely that they may be shunning you because you contradict one of Stefan's arguments.  Even just one seems to be enough for some of them in my experience.

 

I'm not blaming Stefan for making these arguments although I do disagree with a few of them.  But I'm criticizing some, only some, of his hard-core fans who seems very unwilling to spend much time with people who don't agree with all of Stefan's arguments.

[regevdl]

It seems somewhat dishonest to talk to someone about not wanting to talk to them. 

 

 

 

 

I have to disagree here and that is a contradictory statement.  Talking honestly about WHY you don't want to continue the relationship (friendship, romantic, business) is honesty and respectful.  Simply dropping off ESPECIALLY after you have poured your deep inner thoughts and emotions is like emotional theft.  The person deserves to be responded to, for closure but to respectfully end the relationship if that is desired.  

 

Maybe the person really is busy.  Maybe a tragedy occurred.  By not responding is passive aggressive as it leaves the other, who obviously cares about that person, in the dark and subject to worry and dis-ease.  Let's universalize.  We would expect a boss to give a reason or communicate with an employee if they are fired correct?  We would not accept a boss simply not responding to the employee until the employee figures out that 'silence is the communication'.

 

If a spouse wants to end the relationship, we would expect them to be open and honest about their grievances, correct?  Or would we accept that their silence "will speak for itself".  

 

It's perfectly fine if the other person no longer wants to continue the relationship but to honor the relationship and the value that both parties gained from the time the relationship existed, the best, honorable thing to do is be honest about the absence.  If a tragedy occurred, it may take time for that person to come around.  But, if a tragedy occurred and you were not contacted then it shows you are not part of the inner circle of that person.  

 

In the end, it is best to move on from these people and not badger them, but what they are doing is not kind or respectful in anyway.  

 

If you don't mind I will share a short personal experience on this issue.  In my village, there is one family that everyone despises with good reason.  In our village, you have to be accepted and voted in as a member.  YOu have a 1 year trial period.  Non members are welcome here but nee to be vetted since we are a small/remote/private community, we don't want loonies.  

 

One family found a loophole and they are losers, violent, abusers and racists.  TRIFECTA of human garbage.  Since we are a community of kind people, we all tried to give them a chance.  One by one, people slowly disconnected from them....silently.  I, on the other hand, when I had my fill of being 'tolerant' to their disgusting behavior and after I tried slowly extracating myself from their perimeter, I confronted them to let them know WHY I will no longer be in communication with them nor will my children.  

 

Oddly they claimed they were in shock and never heard anyone else complain about this.  And...from their experience, they are right!  No one ever told them or complained to them and everyone around assumed 'well...once they see that no one talks to them, they will get the point'. but they don't.  Maybe because they really don't see it or are in denial, maybe they are stupid or maybe they want to play victim.  

 

They chose the last.  So, now, they have imagination and lack of evidence to their advantage.  So, they go around and say how snobby everyone is for excluding them for no reason.  I tried to encourage other memebers to be more honest and give them a REASON for being rejected and ostracized.  People can't/won't change if they are unaware of how others are experiecing them.  even this change is not a guarantee but at least they won't be left confused or make of self-defense stories that make everyone else look bad.  

 

I had a friend who we shared EVERY deep emotion and thought for more than 10 years.  I moved overseas and we still continued our conversations.  Even in the U.S. we didn't speak everyday but at least a few times a month.  That was a comfortable 'pace' even while I am overseas. Then, suddenly she never responded.  By that I mean, I would wait weeks since our contact wasn't daily.  Then after 2 months, then 3.... It was strange because she would usually update me if something was going on even a simple, "I am going through something heavy and need to disappear....so give me space"... she used to be that honest.  Finally, after 6 months of being worried, confused and hurt, I decided to leave it alone.  I tried and if she valued our DECADE long friendship of the deepest level and can't even continue being honest to say...I don't want to continue then the friendship is already dead.  

 

So....honest direct and clear communication will only move things forward.  mysteriously slinking away is gross and manipulative because again, if you have had a deep connection with the person, then clearly the person would care or worry if they are unable to reach you and to not have empathy for the person you are putting through unnecessary worry is cruel just because people think "my silence will speak for itself".  You know what else speaks for itself?  Words.  Words speak for themselves.  

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[kathryn]

 

So....honest direct and clear communication will only move things forward. mysteriously slinking away is gross and manipulative because again, if you have had a deep connection with the person, then clearly the person would care or worry if they are unable to reach you and to not have empathy for the person you are putting through unnecessary worry is cruel just because people think "my silence will speak for itself". You know what else speaks for itself? Words. Words speak for themselves.

You are under no moral obligation to someone else, unless that person is your spouse or your child. If someone is "mysteriously slinking away," then the relationship probably wasn't very good to begin with. Also, if a requirement of friendship for you is not doing that, then the moment someone does, they are not your friend anymore by your own standards.

 

Interesting that you mention passive aggression. Is it more passive aggressive to walk away from an individual, or talk to someone you don't like out of some imaginary social debt that needs to be paid? The act of talking to them, when you don't want to, will foster contempt that leads to passive aggression.

[Fast and steady]

Hey, just noticed this thread and as one of the 5 people that had cut off communication with Kotaro, I can assure him that it was not anything he did or said or anything about him at all - at least in my particular case (I can't speak for any others, especially since I don't think I ever met them).

 

I've already been in contact with him again in the past 2 or 3 nights and have shared my reasons for doing so (which I admit was not fair to him and even self-centered of me to do).

 

A long story short (and because I'm not quite ready to publicly share the longer story), I have some fairly strong social anxieties that are partly to blame... I should have had the decency to at least texted him back to let him know what was going on instead of leaving him in the dark. I regret that even more now that I realize that he doubted himself. I should have known better seeing as how I've had this very same thing done to me a number of times and having felt like I must have done something wrong which only helped to increase my social anxiety.

 

I'm sorry, Kotaro.

 

To reiterate, it was not your fault nor was it anything you said or did. What I did was thoughtless and cruel.

[percentient]

kathryn, I think you are the one dismissing the silence. Of course it says something is wrong. It says that either the escapee is being lazy (thanks for your input Ragnar), or that he knows you would refuse to accept his boundaries.

 

You owe a friend to not leave them wondering whether they are so antisocial or narcissistic that they would drag you into the mud.

 

Although we weren't close at all, someone did this to me. I assumed he just wanted to avoid explaining the whole thing to himself, but it still made me angry and uneasy.

[regevdl]

You are under no moral obligation to someone else, unless that person is your spouse or your child. If someone is "mysteriously slinking away," then the relationship probably wasn't very good to begin with. Also, if a requirement of friendship for you is not doing that, then the moment someone does, they are not your friend anymore by your own standards.

 

Interesting that you mention passive aggression. Is it more passive aggressive to walk away from an individual, or talk to someone you don't like out of some imaginary social debt that needs to be paid? The act of talking to them, when you don't want to, will foster contempt that leads to passive aggression.

 

 

Wait.  We are under no moral obligation to anyone except our spouse and kids?  How in the world did I even get my spouse?  before we were married he was just 'someone'.  So if at that time, I was under no moral obligation to him and he to me, then we could have lied, cheated, stolen, murdered?  If we engaged in such behavior and  STILL  got married....boy would that have been a mistake for the both of us!! That doesn't seem very consistent and enlightens me why there are so many bad relationships out there if this is what people believe. He became my spouse (and I his) because we discussed past relationships and even discussed how they ended and we acted as if we were morally obligated to each other as...human beings.  we didn't know at that time we would be each other's spouse.

 

 if at anytime he (or anyone else I dated in my past) told me that they just 'left' a romantic relationship or a friendship w/out notice,  I would have stated that was a deal breaker for me and left THAT person with notice and explanation.  They can use my explanation to help them in the future or they can ignore it.  not my problem at that point but I would be honest and tell them why I do not want to continue further.

 

Does marriage have some sort of 'event horizon' that magically makes people MORE moral and caring to one another after the wedding?  Am I not obligated to be moral to the cashier so I can steal from her register?  am I not morally obligated to my neighbor as to not murder her?  am I not morally obligated to my child's friend so I can hit them?   

 

You assumed I mean by 'talking' to them that means continue fake conversations and fake interest in the other person. that is not what I was saying.

 

 I was pointing out that if one person has a grievance in the re;ationship, that they SHOULD communicate it before bailing.  They should Talk about that, not  about mindless b.s. just to 'be polite'.  of course not. This person did not claim that the relationship was violent or life threatening which would be a reason to leave without notice.  But if they shared intimate time together and shared personal experiences, etc then they deserve the final conversation of why the person who wants to leave is unhappy or no longer interested.  

 

..  State the case and intention of leaving and leave.  From that point they have no obligation to further communicate with the other person. such as, "friend/lover/other, our relationship has gone dull.  I am unhappy and really see no point or interest in continuing it.  I don't want to work on it.  I don't want to hear what you have to say and I simply want to go about my life without you and you do the same."   there.  that's it.  That's all it takes to end a relationship with dignity and civility.  Just because a relationship has run its course doesn't mean we need to intentionally hurt the other person or make them confused or worry. 

 

I don't think it's immoral to leave w/out notice but I think it's incredibly self righteous and douchey and will only set them up for failed and miserable relationships in the future for the sake of 'saving' them a bad or crumbling relationship in the present.  They walk with the attitdue that they are taking out the garbage in their life but it's like taking out the garbage without a bag...it's gets messy all the way to the dump and leaves a slimy trail behind them.  finished with the relationship?  no problem. bag it up and walk away...don't just walk away.  

 

Yes.  relationships hit roadblocks. sometimes it's worth it to bail (properly) and sometimes it's worth investing repair.  They always deserve communication of the intention.  And anyone who supports this theory of disappearing without notice or practices this won't suddenly change because they are married, or worse...they will get married and be living a lie through their unhappiness because they refuse to be honest from the get-go . 

 

Have I had previous relationships that have gone dull by my fault or by the other's fault or by both?  absolutely.  I still can't imagine not telling the person or having the other person simply walk away without informing me of their discomfort.  We are not mind readers.  yes.  I know.   even when we are super intimate with someone, from time to time we can still miss the queues of dissatisfaction or simply think it's related to another cause (work, family, money) etc.  

 

It's a bit narcissitic because the person abandoning is in the mindset that the other person 'must know' or 'get the clue' which means they assume that the other person is thinking about them 24/7 about all the possibilities and circumstances and assuming fault or responsibility on it all, etc.  And the person leaving is really doing a disservice to themselves and society because believe it or not.   if say, she did something abhorrant to cause this person to leave, then why not tell her so she can improve rather than inflict that again on someone else.  

 

So they think they are leaving a bad person/relationship but are unwilling to call out whatever it was that caused the relationship to be bad, which will cause the pattern to repeat towards another person.  But if this is the accepted 'lack of moral obligation to others' as you stated the 'ehhh...not my spouse or kid...so what do I care?" syndrome, then that means, everyone in society or most behave with that mentality and the next person he/she meets may have a quirk that no one called them out on and the person can bail again and never figure out why they cannot find quality people to not bail on.