Spouse unwilling to challenge some of her beliefs

[Mike C.]

I got married a year ago, and we are learning a lot about how to get along and know each other and ourselves. Things are pleasant 80% of the time or so. We think quite differently, which I always knew could be either a strength or a challenge.

 

Okay, so I started listening to Adam Kokesh  and became a believer in anarchy about 3 or 4 months ago, then found FDR a couple months ago and am very curious and attracted to his logical approach to things. My wife never read much of the stuff I read about anarchy and nowadays she doesn't really like listening to Stefan, either. I think she may be listening more because I ask her and less because she is really interested.

 

We are LDS (AKA Mormon) and she said she feels uncomfortable challenging certain core beliefs that are part of our faith. I told her I feel doubt about our future because I fear that she may be unwilling to challenge certain beliefs that are not true and possibly causing her emotional suffering.

 

How can I be more persuasive to her? Maybe just be an example of living UPB and explaining how it brings me peace...?  Thanks!

[russoft]

I've been married a little over two years. I knew when we got married that we differed on some things. My wife is entirely uninterested and uninformed about most political issues, save a few, like abortion.

 

I don't try to get her interested in my political ideas. I usually listen to FDR alone. Occasionally she'll listen in on the occasional presentation. I usually strategically pick presentations that I think she'll be receptive to, then watch/listen without headphones so she can listen. I don't expect her to accept some of the more "radical" ideas, yet. I feel free to speak my mind on issues I care about, and she listens. She doesn't always agree, or care, about the issue. But she hears it.

 

I do not expect my wife to change. I married her knowing that possibility. I hope you did too. That said, I think gentle but consistent influence can help change minds. There's a reason unmarried women tend to be leftist but swing conservative once married. People's beliefs can be tempered by the relationships they have.

[Wuzzums]

One of the most important things I learned from Stefan was that people rarely act irrational and when they do it's because of ulterior motives. They are gaining something from not accepting the truth.

 

Speaking as an atheist, it was a lot easier for me to give up on religion compared to someone raised in a mormon community. After I became an atheist, none of my family relationships changed, nor did my relationships with my extended family, nor the relationships with my friends. Point I'm trying to make is that subtracting faith from your life will also subtract the elements in your life built around the faith (maybe friends, family, support, and so on). 

 

Is it fair to say your wife is thinking about the long term consequences of your newly discovered ideals? Are the consequences of losing the faith acceptable compared to the benefits of keeping the faith? I think you're spot on, if you want to persuade her into accepting your point of view you would need to show her how much better your life is because of it.

[russoft]

Speaking as a Christian, if you're asking your wife to give up her faith, I think you're only going to succeed if she's already only nominal or has serious doubts about Mormonism. I know little about LDS so can't speak with any authority. I find many of the principles Stef speaks about to be compatible with my faith. I don't think anarchy and atheism are inextricably linked. I haven't educated myself on UPB in particular, so can't speak to that.

[Alan C.]

If you decide to have kids, you may find yourself in a difficult and frustrating situation if your wives decide to impose their superstitious beliefs upon them.

 

People form emotional bonds with superstitous dogma at a young age in much the same way as they form bonds with toys and cartoon characters. Children don't have a sufficiently developed intellectual faculty to analyze things critically, logically, and skeptically. There is a power asymmetry bewtween children and their parents. Their parents are their guardians and represent authority figures, and they tend to believe whatever their parents tell them. Afterall, their parents wouldn't lie to them.

 

When some people grow up, they cling to the superstitious dogma which they were inculcated with as children because it provides comfort, a sense of meaning and purpose in life, a refuge in which to hide from reality, and a means to connect with others superficially. The more insecure, credulous, and feeble-minded people are, the less likely they'll be to examine those beliefs critically and skeptically. Deep down, people intuitively know that superstiton is bullshit because they yield to science and rationality when it suits them (in economics it's called demonstrated preference). So, in order to give their superstitious beliefs a sense of normalcy, they impose those beliefs upon their own children to provide validation, thus mitigating their own anxiety.

[ResurrectMyself]

If you decide to have kids, you may find yourself in a difficult and frustrating situation if your wives decide to impose their superstitious beliefs upon them.

*wife *her

But other than that, Alan makes a crucial point here, it's very important to mull these things over.

[markovcd]

We are LDS (AKA Mormon) and she said she feels uncomfortable challenging certain core beliefs that are part of our faith. I told her I feel doubt about our future because I fear that she may be unwilling to challenge certain beliefs that are not true and possibly causing her emotional suffering.

 

How can I be more persuasive to her? Maybe just be an example of living UPB and explaining how it brings me peace...? Thanks!

If you make this about persuading her it won't work and will bring potential problems in your relationship. Instead try focusing on her experience. She expressed her discomfort which is brave and honest thing to say. I would explore that by asking questions like "what does your faith mean to you?", "what happened in your past which caused you to feel this discomfort?" etc. It is important to express frequently that you don't want to persuade her to anything but simply know more about her. Abstract arguments targeted at dogma only hardens it, which was proven scientifically.

 

Having this mindset gives her sense of security and ultimately a choice to re examine her beliefs.

[Mike C.]

One of the most important things I learned from Stefan was that people rarely act irrational and when they do it's because of ulterior motives. They are gaining something from not accepting the truth.

 

Is it fair to say your wife is thinking about the long term consequences of your newly discovered ideals? Are the consequences of losing the faith acceptable compared to the benefits of keeping the faith? I think you're spot on, if you want to persuade her into accepting your point of view you would need to show her how much better your life is because of it.

Yeah, I gather that she is thinking long term about whether our life will be better or worse if I apply the scientific method to my faith.

Her family wouldn't disown her, but her parents would be somewhat disappointed. But mostly my wife feels scared and is afraid something bad will happen if I don't repent and keep following the commandments that I am doubting. I am still on the fence, I guess. I thought about not paying tithing (10% of my income) for a year or so to see what happened as far as blessings go, and she got very scared. The LDS church does teach that it is important to use reason and understand why you are being obedient, but she somehow hasn't learned that doctrine, yet, somehow... Work in progress, I guess.

 

I'll keep you all posted. I might call in in a week or two if I need to. Thanks all!

[Mike C.]

Do you have a therapist that you can talk to, or a marriage counselor?

 

And, I wonder whether you've heard this podcast of Stef's: An Atheist Apologizes to Christians

She happens to be seeing a therapist already for depression, as of late (while coming off her medicine). We are thinking of maybe seeing her together sometime. We are worried I might disagree with her methods if she (the therapist) is not well versed in logic... Haha, but yeah!

 

Also I did listen to that podcast. It was interesting, and a bit confusing, as well. Thanks for the info!

If you make this about persuading her it won't work and will bring potential problems in your relationship. Instead try focusing on her experience. She expressed her discomfort which is brave and honest thing to say. I would explore that by asking questions like "what does your faith mean to you?", "what happened in your past which caused you to feel this discomfort?" etc. It is important to express frequently that you don't want to persuade her to anything but simply know more about her. Abstract arguments targeted at dogma only hardens it, which was proven scientifically.

 

Having this mindset gives her sense of security and ultimately a choice to re examine her beliefs.

 

Yesterday she actually asked me if I was trying to change her or persuade her. I thought about it and said, "no. I am trying to understand you better." The conversation went so much better after that. So, I agree with you there! Thanks!

So, in order to give their superstitious beliefs a sense of normalcy, they impose those beliefs upon their own children to provide validation, thus mitigating their own anxiety.

 

Yeah I figured that would be likely. Important to think about before having kids, for sure! So the question is how to find out if she will or won't do this...

[Alan C.]

*wife *her

But other than that, Alan makes a crucial point here, it's very important to mull these things over.

 

I meant to write 'yourselves' as I was addressing the first two posters. They both said that their wives were steadfast in their beliefs and unwilling to examine them critically.

[regevdl]

I'm a bit troubled by using the word 'persuade'.  I can only speak for myself but I arrived here (and still evolving) by nuggets that woke me up when I least expected it.  It seems that the more someone was trying to 'persuade' me, the more I resisted....say...my religious upbringing.  

 

My husband sounds like your wife, only in terms of doesn't actively or even passively seek out emotional or intellectual ideas.  Much of his perspective is naturally inline with mine but I had to work really damn hard to get here and he just seemed to have evolved by a lot of trial and error and a natural ability to swim against the current.  

 

So my humble suggestion is to first stop trying to pursuade because then it becomes a 'pet project' and that's not fair to your wife.  I  am SURE that is NOT your intention but try to consider possibilities of how she might be experiencing your attempts.  She might be internalizing it as if you are trying to change her (and you sort of are), even if for the better....change needs to come within.  

 

My husband hit several unpleasant roadblocks and unfortunately when those occurred, I pushed the gas peddle and try to force-feed him with my 'enlightenment' even harder.  It was a losing battle and a very, VERY destructive one.  We've been married 13 years and this occurred in the last 2 years (when I first became introduced to FDR and anarchy, etc).  

 

So, after we survived our marital battle, I realized I was being the WRONG advertisement for the cause.  I try to experience me as HE experienced me and it was not good.  I was so embarrassed by my behavior.  It didn't mean that makes him 100% right.  It just means, you have to remember to be humble and let people find their truth on their time.  AND AND AND  be the BEST  example.  I found in this last year, which has been the BEST and continues to improve between me and my hubby. 

 

I found that simply but NOT talking about specifics and simply behaving in the best way in all aspects of my life and not constantly have to point out "hey...look!  This is moral and ethical!  that's philosphy'....really helped.  I literally didn't say things like that but I did have the tendancy to attach 'anarchy' or 'philosophy' to particular situations and that got annoying, even for me.  

 

So, I stopped doin ghtat and continued to live in the words I was preaching.  If certain topics came up (like news or current events) we would discuss and I would put my anarchist viewpoint on it without labeling it.  I see slowly and slowly my hubbying agreeing with me and the best part..after about a year...he would put an 'anarchist' view before I would!  

 

I doubt a day will come that he would ever openly 'come out' as an anarchist....who knows and it honestly doesn't matter to me.  it's more important that he is evolving and adjusting his behavior in the world accordingly.  

 

I hope that helps.  Stop trying to control it, stop talking about it and just live.  live in the shoes, continue to be curious about her and her beliefs even if you are still in disagreence.  I think if she sees you first trying to sort this stuff out with yourself and sharing your experience rather than using it to 'convert' her, it will earn you respect point and have a more liklihood of inspiriing.  But since your marriage is so new AND your introduction to this stuff if fairly new....it's a bit of a large pill to swallow and it's vital to be compassionate of her experience of that.  

 

As you internalize a lot of your new perspective, simply share.  'hey honey, I used to think xyz about the state/religion/etc but I heard this compelling argument that stated XYZ and it's really got me thinking."  something along those lines.  It's not demanding that she reflects on the issue.  you are sharing as a partner a process you are going through and she has no obligation to change in the moment.  

 

I live in Israel and I remember me droning on about stateless societies and how that would look for Israelis and Palestinians and bla bla bla and my hubby was just driving in silence 'listening'.  I went ON for EVER.  looking back I am totally annoyed with myself!  lol 

 

But now, more than a year later, we were driving again and I was asking questions about the Beduin villages we pass (they are makeshift villages by nomadic arabs).  I inquire a LOT...constantly asking questions and getting his perspective on things.  Anyway, I simply stated.  You know....if Israel wasn't founded by Communists/Socialists these nomadic villages wouldn't be an issue.  He was intrigued.  I simply stated, that the new state gvt took ownership of the land and made communes (kibbutz) and other villages but people weren't free to own their own land and if they HAD been allowed, the wealthy could simply buy huge patches of land and develop them.  If the land was purchased but unused or portions were unused/claimed while developments were created, then they could sell/rent the land to the beduins (rent is better since they move away every so often) or they could kick them off the private land, or choose to buy their own land to develop with other beduins, etc.  

 

That was it.  I didn't get into the moral implications against the occupation or treatment of arabs or non jews in Israel...etc.  I just simply made a 'property right' argument and he finally engaged with me and was actually internalizing what I stated.  It's too late to change anything now but it got him thinking about other things.  It was a 5 minute conversation that ACTUALLY moved the needled a bit considering I spend HOURS droning on before, choosing the topic or getting into an outright fight!  So.... bite-size pieces after you have already become interested in your partner and choosing a topic that is already on both of your minds.

 

If you didn't arrive in your current state by one person constantly talking or arguing about it, then you have to give her the same courtesy. You have your whole life ahead, these things take time and patience.  Show her that.  

 

you seem new to this so you first must walk in these shoes a while before you can inspire others.  

 

And to each his own but Adam Kokesh may promote anarchy and such but he is a provocateur in my humble opinion.  He projects out rather than changing from within so it makes sense as to why your approach maybe not be working with your wife as you seem to be doing the same thing (knowingly or unknowingly).  I used to listen to him but after about 3 months, I couldn't take it anymore.  I outgrew it I think and his version of 'practical' is quite provoking and abrasive and shows his lack of understanding of human behavior. It came off very childish to me.

 

best of luck!

[Torero]

Hi Mike,

 

I don't know much about the Mormon faith so I really cannot help you with that. But what I have seen in the last years is that there's more common ground between religious people and anarchists than between anarchists and statists. Like you say; there's no inherent contradiction to be both anarchist and religious.

 

I was raised antitheistic by my parents, or rather, they were and I got dragged into it (like is common in Western Europe), but now I see that religious people and anarchists share much more.

 

Belief in a State is much more dangerous than belief in a deity, hence the fierce focus on the latter by statists.

 

If you believe God is providing moral, then wouldn't you discard a State defining that for you, almost automatically?

 

My girlfriend is catholic, but not practising (no church visits, not praying, only the gestures when passing a church or cemetery). I've had discussions about moral lately with her and I found much more common ground with her than with previous girlfriends, all atheists and statists.

 

Doesn't the Mormon faith already have a built-in antipathy against statism? Try to find the similarities between your faith and the moral stance on not accepting the force of statism. Look for the common factors, that would work much better than convincing her to give up something that's important to her. The latter I fear will cost you your marriage and that would not be the way to go.

[Jer]

Doesn't the Mormon faith already have a built-in antipathy against statism? Try to find the similarities between your faith and the moral stance on not accepting the force of statism. Look for the common factors, that would work much better than convincing her to give up something that's important to her. The latter I fear will cost you your marriage and that would not be the way to go.

They were persecuted/chased out of the midwest with the support of the local governments and were actually fleeing the US when they arrived in Utah, but the society they set up there was also quite collectivist. I'd say they're generally more distrustful of secular authority but are still quite happy to use the government to impose their bigotries (i.e. California Prop 8).

[Holo Cene]

Your wife is protecting valuable social networks that will ensure future happiness for you and for you family. At least that is how she see's it. 

[Mike C.]

@regevdl Thank you for sharing your experience. That brought a lot of clarity to me and has made my marriage less stressful and more peaceful. My wife notices already how I have changed for the better. We still have a hard time understanding each other, but at least our conversations are built on mutual curiosity, now.

[Mike C.]

Doesn't the Mormon faith already have a built-in antipathy against statism?

 

Well, in theory, yes the Mormon faith teaches that our free agency is sacred and important to protect, but it also teaches that "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

 

So, it sort of contradicts itself:

1. If honoring the law means respecting it, and

2. respecting something means to believe it to be virtuous, and if

3. government is virtuous, and

4. gov't also uses aggression to force it's will/laws upon its citizens

5. and if using force is NOT respecting ones free agency

6. and since the Mormon church teaches its members to be active in voting and such,

7. We must conclude that the LDS (Mormon) church doesn't always respect the agency of others.

 

I think that argument proves that conclusion. But like Jer said just barely, the Mormons have had many bad experiences with the gov't persecuting them. Anyways. Nowadays, most Mormons are republicans = 74%, semi-statist conservatives = 66%, some 20-35% democrats, and maybe 3-10% libertarians (minarchists), from what I have seen and read:

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/01/12/mormons-in-america-executive-summary/

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700214611/Mormons-in-America-Pew-survey-explores-beliefs-attitudes-of-LDS-Church-members.html?pg=all

 

But my wife is slowly becoming more skeptical and disliking towards the state. But she wants to indoctrinate our future kids, instead of humbly share her beliefs as what they are: beliefs. Also she wishes we will all go to church together. She is still figuring out why she wants this. Social stability is probably a factor, as Holo Cene stated.

[Mike C.]

Just as an update: My wife is saying that she is not willing to change her mind about God and that she wants to indoctrinate her future kids by sending them to church, yet says she will not indoctrinate them herself (her parents sent her to church too, instead of doing it themselves).

 

I am losing hope for my marriage. So is she, as she is realizing she can't convince me to change my mind using an appeal to reason.

[J. D. Stembal]

“The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place.” -- Robert Briffault, The Mothers, I, 191

 

There is no appealing to reason with women or religion. Women think with the eggs until somewhere near menopause. The pre-menopausal freakout is women realizing that they have to start being nice if they want other people, especially men, to be around them. This is why conversations with older women are so very pleasant, almost to a fault.

 

Seriously, talk to a bunch of greyhairs. They will all be very sweet to you, at least to your face, because you are giving them the attention that they miss. Then, attempt to speak with any woman in her early or mid-twenties. If she looks up from her phone at you for more than a moment, she'll probably lay on her back for you. Otherwise, she has no time for you.

 

Religion was the last disagreement that my ex and I had before I told her that I would have to be crazy to knock her up. There were many others before this, though, so the relationship was doomed from the start.

 

You will be better off without the craziness in your life. It hurts now, but with a couple of years of retrospect, you will be much happier!

 

P. S.: Do not, under any circumstance, have intercourse with your wife from this point. This is the time frame in which OOPSIE! babies happen.

[Kurtis]

Just as an update: My wife is saying that she is not willing to change her mind about God and that she wants to indoctrinate her future kids by sending them to church, yet says she will not indoctrinate them herself (her parents sent her to church too, instead of doing it themselves).

 

I am losing hope for my marriage. So is she, as she is realizing she can't convince me to change my mind using an appeal to reason.

I'm very sorry to hear this, it must be very painful for you

 

In my mid 20's I was in love to a woman (developmentally we were a boy and girl), and we were intent on marrying each other. Her family was very religious, old testament style Christianity. She had lied to me about her own beliefs, saying it was just her parents that felt that strongly, not her.

 

And yet, in the conversations leading up to us spending our lives together, she let it be known that she would indoctrinate our future children in the very same way her parents had done to her. She then confessed to having the same strength of faith as them.

 

There was no possibility to appeal to reason, oh I tried. I was willing to accept everything about her, but once it became known that there was no way to change her mind about child indoctrination, I knew it was over, as that is something I'll never partake in.

 

It was extremely painful then and remained so for a couple years after we broke up. However, I'm extremely grateful for having held strong to my decision. In these years that have followed I've been able to process my traumas, and no longer am living in my childhood. This has enabled me to meet a partner who shares the same virtues as me, with the same open mindedness and desire for growth.

 

I'm not saying you should end your marriage or not, that is your journey to work through. I simply want you to have empathy for your future self, and for the children you will create one day.

 

My heart goes out to you.

[russoft]

Just as an update: My wife is saying that she is not willing to change her mind about God and that she wants to indoctrinate her future kids by sending them to church, yet says she will not indoctrinate them herself (her parents sent her to church too, instead of doing it themselves).

 

I am losing hope for my marriage. So is she, as she is realizing she can't convince me to change my mind using an appeal to reason.

 

Religious or not, marriage is a life long commitment. I am surprised that this wasn't a bigger part of your pre-marital discussions, since religion is a large part of what forms your world view.

 

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? - 2 Cor 6:14 NIV

 

Now maybe this is about parenting styles more than it's about belief systems. So you don't agree on how to raise your kids? Join the club. I would encourage you to keep your commitments and find a common ground and learn to live with your differences with your wife. I frankly despise our culture of temporary commitments and rampant divorce. I believe it causes large amounts of harm.

 

That said, if you don't think you can make your marriage work, better you find that out now before you have children. A broken marriage can be harmful to your children. Of course, don't think a divorce only hurts children. A divorce will leave your wife hurt and broken, especially in the context of your LDS community. If she seeks to find another partner, I imagine many LDS guys won't be interested in a divorcee. At least, that's how it can be in the Christian church. Anyone who is actually serious about their faith is cautious of dating someone who was in a marriage before.

 

Broken commitments hurt people is what I'm saying. Think long and hard about how you proceed. I encourage you to work with your wife. Develop your relationship with your wife. A close relationship can help smooth over a lot of marital problems and enable spouses to put up with more from their partner. I don't know what LDS teaches, but I believe Christ is still important in the Mormon belief system. Christ-like behaviour means serving rather than leading. Spend some time serving your wife and giving of yourself, which is a true example of love. You may find her more receptive to your ideas if you show her that you love her. Spend less time arguing and debating her and more time loving her. Remember that love is not a feeling, it is an action. It is the way you treat your wife, not how you feel about her. Feelings follow actions.

 

If it's alright with you, I'll keep you and your wife in prayer.

[Mike C.]

Thanks for the advice about thinking about where I can be in a few years. I agree that the future is where my concerns are. No oops babies for us!

 

On a brighter note, she finally started listening to UPB the audio book. So, hopefully we can come to an agreement on that and apply it to parenting. Assuming she finishes that book, which other book should we read together, if any? I was thinking RTR or On Truth: The Tyranny of Illusion...

 

As always, thank you for your candor and empathy. Sorry for the pain you guys went through, Kurtis and J. D.

[Mike C.]

Update again: We had a pretty decent RTR style talk and she shared some of childhood and such. I gave her lots of empathy. But she didn't want to talk about how she felt about some of the not so fun parts fo her childhood that were related to religion and seemed to wall up there. We had another discussion last night and Same thing happened but this time she got really mad at me and cried when we hit those touchy memories of hers again. She said I was "trying to ask [her] leading questions" but couldn't point out any examples when I asked how. I honestly want to know if I am in the wrong, but I am guessing that it is her delusion. *sigh* I requested to be on the Call-in show, so maybe that will happen.

[Mike C.]

For those interested, I will post the date of the show I get scheduled for here, so go to the top of the page and click "Follow Thread" to get notified.

[Kurtis]

Will your wife be available, or willing, to participate in the call?

[J. D. Stembal]

For those interested, I will post the date of the show I get scheduled for here, so go to the top of the page and click "Follow Thread" to get notified.

 

I'm all over it, Mike!

 

Ditto on what Kurtis asked. Is it going to be a couple's call?

 

I was supposed to be in a couple's call for FDR 2733, but my shit was moved onto the porch by the time the call happened. Whoops, philosophy happened.

[Mike C.]

Good question! I hope she will join in the call! She did say she would like to see a couples therapist. I just need to find one that isn't religious. Any suggestions?

 

Anyways, I will let you know what she says about joined the call once I find out the call date.