Why does god need to be outside of time?

[Donnadogsoth]

And all of those things are made up. Complete fantasy. Humanity does have a compass called reason which brings forth philosophy and science. Humans mold the universe around them, they don't need to be told what to do by the univrse. Our endeavors last generations even when our bodies don't. We are immortal in our ideas.

 

Not unless those ideas conform to natural law.  The principle of oligarchism is an idea, is it immortal?  Do the planet's power elite fancy themselves immortal as they crush the lower classes and mould the universe around them?  Or is there a higher law we appeal to, a law of agape--but, of course, you have said that agape is fantasy, creativity is fantasy, and immortality of the creative, agapic soul, a fantasy.  What then do you oppose the oligarchs with?

[Will Torbald]

Not unless those ideas conform to natural law.  The principle of oligarchism is an idea, is it immortal?  Do the planet's power elite fancy themselves immortal as they crush the lower classes and mould the universe around them?  Or is there a higher law we appeal to, a law of agape--but, of course, you have said that agape is fantasy, creativity is fantasy, and immortality of the creative, agapic soul, a fantasy.  What then do you oppose the oligarchs with?

 

True, natural law is indeed necessary to understand through reason and philosophy. Good thing those ideas came from secular thinkers, too. Oligarchs? Theocrats like the Pope and Sharia rulers just want to replace governments with the government of their religions. They did in the past, and they want it again. It's a shame that instead of taking down the government people just want to replace it with something even worse. Or that in the search of taking down the theocracy they replace it with the religion of the state. Both are superstitions, both are means of control, both are unreal constructs.

[Donnadogsoth]

True, natural law is indeed necessary to understand through reason and philosophy. Good thing those ideas came from secular thinkers, too. Oligarchs? Theocrats like the Pope and Sharia rulers just want to replace governments with the government of their religions. They did in the past, and they want it again. It's a shame that instead of taking down the government people just want to replace it with something even worse. Or that in the search of taking down the theocracy they replace it with the religion of the state. Both are superstitions, both are means of control, both are unreal constructs.

 

So we agree on natural law, that there is such a thing, and it, or parts of it are discoverable. So we can discover principles of nature, of science and art specifically, and we don't have to be Christians to do it.

 

These principles are all portions of a single Law, that we can have scientific truthfulness about, but which we can never discover fully. We can discover it in part, and grow in our knowledge, but the entirety is always beyond our grasp.

 

Now take human nature, specifically humanity as a single indivisible entity, in relation to a specific human being. So we have the One (human race) and the Many (individual humans). What is the spiritual, mental, psychological relationship between the two? It is a sense of indebtedness to the past and a hope for the future, a sense and a capacity (at least in theory) to make a contribution to the human race in such a way that that contribution lasts forever, and effects the outcome of the past, and the destiny of the future. And this is passion, or agape, and immortality. And this is why the story of the Crucifixion of Christ is so important, because it is the essence of man's relationship to the universe.

[Will Torbald]

So we agree on natural law, that there is such a thing, and it, or parts of it are discoverable. So we can discover principles of nature, of science and art specifically, and we don't have to be Christians to do it.

 

These principles are all portions of a single Law, that we can have scientific truthfulness about, but which we can never discover fully. We can discover it in part, and grow in our knowledge, but the entirety is always beyond our grasp.

 

Now take human nature, specifically humanity as a single indivisible entity, in relation to a specific human being. So we have the One (human race) and the Many (individual humans). What is the spiritual, mental, psychological relationship between the two? It is a sense of indebtedness to the past and a hope for the future, a sense and a capacity (at least in theory) to make a contribution to the human race in such a way that that contribution lasts forever, and effects the outcome of the past, and the destiny of the future. And this is passion, or agape, and immortality. And this is why the story of the Crucifixion of Christ is so important, because it is the essence of man's relationship to the universe.

 

It's a guy being brutally nailed to a cross for an ancient superstition. Which no historian can prove actually happened, or that he even existed. You are arguing about the importance of fiction to cultivate a sense of belonging. I could say the same for Harry Potter, or for Star Wars. They are good stories about heroes who conquer evil, and they are good for people to read because it fosters goodwill.

[Donnadogsoth]

It's a guy being brutally nailed to a cross for an ancient superstition. Which no historian can prove actually happened, or that he even existed. You are arguing about the importance of fiction to cultivate a sense of belonging. I could say the same for Harry Potter, or for Star Wars. They are good stories about heroes who conquer evil, and they are good for people to read because it fosters goodwill.

 

Star Wars and Harry Potter revolve around skill and luck.  Their heroes live charmed lives and win through by their skill and luck, and their victories "feel right" to audiences because of those audiences' hope that righteousness will prevail.  But those heroes exist in phony universes that bear little resemble to the world we live in.  Their lives and victories resonate mythically, not historically.

 

Christ's sacrifice is not like that.  He didn't have any luck, or any skill.  He saw the wickedness in the world and faced it down, by laying down his life.  Christ, not Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter, is the pattern for the passion that saving the world takes.  Not to say that saving the world doesn't take some skill and some luck, but the core of the matter isn't decided by those things.  Lacking Christly passion, when forced to choose people join the Dark Side, whether out of greed or fear.

[Will Torbald]

Star Wars and Harry Potter revolve around skill and luck.  Their heroes live charmed lives and win through by their skill and luck, and their victories "feel right" to audiences because of those audiences' hope that righteousness will prevail.  But those heroes exist in phony universes that bear little resemble to the world we live in.  Their lives and victories resonate mythically, not historically.

 

Christ's sacrifice is not like that.  He didn't have any luck, or any skill.  He saw the wickedness in the world and faced it down, by laying down his life.  Christ, not Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter, is the pattern for the passion that saving the world takes.  Not to say that saving the world doesn't take some skill and some luck, but the core of the matter isn't decided by those things.  Lacking Christly passion, when forced to choose people join the Dark Side, whether out of greed or fear.

 

You cannot save the world from evil with more evil. You can't free the world with enslaving dogma. You can't enlighten minds with obscurantism. You can't bring reason to ignorants with superstition. Christianity will never save the world. It will only shroud it back to the middle ages. It is pure bigotry and authoritarianism.

[Koroviev]

I kind of lost interest i this conversation a while ago but I just had a thought that was relevant that I don't think had been covered yet. Couldn't you use the same "reasoning" that has been used in this conversation as to why god exists to argue that unicorns exist (the magical ones not just horses with horns on their heads)? Unicorns could exist outside of time/reality/our dimension too, and dragons, and fairies, and flying spaghetti monsters for that matter but how could we know. We have the same amount of "evidence," books and TV shows are written about them, people congregate to talk about them, so how can we say that these imaginary creatures who fit the same descriptions as a god would definitely do not exist but a god could exist? 

[Will Torbald]

I kind of lost interest i this conversation a while ago but I just had a thought that was relevant that I don't think had been covered yet. Couldn't you use the same "reasoning" that has been used in this conversation as to why god exists to argue that unicorns exist (the magical ones not just horses with horns on their heads)? Unicorns could exist outside of time/reality/our dimension too, and dragons, and fairies, and flying spaghetti monsters for that matter but how could we know. We have the same amount of "evidence," books and TV shows are written about them, people congregate to talk about them, so how can we say that these imaginary creatures who fit the same descriptions as a god would definitely do not exist but a god could exist? 

 

This argument is well established in new atheist books like The God Delusion and others. And its true, I agree. All of these constructs are fantasies that people like to pretend they are real to serve emotional needs. The difference is that unicorns don't give you the sadistic comfort that the people you hate are going to go to hell for eternity after they die. Which is really the only reason why people believe in nonsense like Christianity.

[Donnadogsoth]

This argument is well established in new atheist books like The God Delusion and others. And its true, I agree. All of these constructs are fantasies that people like to pretend they are real to serve emotional needs. The difference is that unicorns don't give you the sadistic comfort that the people you hate are going to go to hell for eternity after they die. Which is really the only reason why people believe in nonsense like Christianity.

 

My defence of Christianity resting, the question now revolves around where this libellous contempt for Christianity is coming from. It's not coming from pure reason, Christianity is perfectly compatible with reason, encourages reason, as the trajectory of scientific and cultural development of the Western world amply shows. It's rather coming from the oligarchy itself, which wishes to destroy Christianity as a means of stopping cultural progress, and is employing every means at its disposal to do so.

 

Without Christianity in the way, the culture is free to devolve towards ever greater depths of pornographic depravity, crassness, ignorance, rootlessness, and cosmopolitan confusion. By trashing our religion—besides our race, our culture, our language, and our borders—they ensure we are atomised and impotent against the enormous economic, cultural, and scientific problems we presently face.

 

Libelling Christians to a man as being sadists reveals a person as a tool of the oligarchy.

[Koroviev]

My defence of Christianity resting, the question now revolves around where this libellous contempt for Christianity is coming from. It's not coming from pure reason, Christianity is perfectly compatible with reason, encourages reason, as the trajectory of scientific and cultural development of the Western world amply shows. It's rather coming from the oligarchy itself, which wishes to destroy Christianity as a means of stopping cultural progress, and is employing every means at its disposal to do so.

 

Without Christianity in the way, the culture is free to devolve towards ever greater depths of pornographic depravity, crassness, ignorance, rootlessness, and cosmopolitan confusion. By trashing p religion—besides our race, our culture, our language, and our borders—they ensure we are atomised and impotent against the enormous economic, cultural, and scientific problems we presently face.

 

Libelling Christians to a man as being sadists reveals a person as a tool of the oligarchy.

False, Christianity is the opposite of reason at it's very core. This has already been shown again and again above. The question is why do feel that you need someone telling you what to do, especially someone threatening with guns bigger than the state's and who is the very embodyment of everything you know to be anti-rational and immoral.

[Will Torbald]

My defence of Christianity resting, the question now revolves around where this libellous contempt for Christianity is coming from. It's not coming from pure reason, Christianity is perfectly compatible with reason, encourages reason, as the trajectory of scientific and cultural development of the Western world amply shows. It's rather coming from the oligarchy itself, which wishes to destroy Christianity as a means of stopping cultural progress, and is employing every means at its disposal to do so.

 

Without Christianity in the way, the culture is free to devolve towards ever greater depths of pornographic depravity, crassness, ignorance, rootlessness, and cosmopolitan confusion. By trashing our religion—besides our race, our culture, our language, and our borders—they ensure we are atomised and impotent against the enormous economic, cultural, and scientific problems we presently face.

 

Libelling Christians to a man as being sadists reveals a person as a tool of the oligarchy.

 

You worship human sacrifice and find solace in an eternal hell for the wicked while you rest in laurels in heaven. That sounds deeply sadistic to me. There is no ounce of remorse for the suffering since they earned it through "sin" which is nothing but guilt trips made up by a true oligrachy of priests in control of the minds of indoctrinated people. It gives you a free pass to be utterly unempathic.

[Donnadogsoth]

You worship human sacrifice and find solace in an eternal hell for the wicked while you rest in laurels in heaven. That sounds deeply sadistic to me. There is no ounce of remorse for the suffering since they earned it through "sin" which is nothing but guilt trips made up by a true oligrachy of priests in control of the minds of indoctrinated people. It gives you a free pass to be utterly unempathic.

 

You don't value your war heroes either, I'm guessing.  Because that's what Jesus is, a war hero in the ongoing campaign against oligarchism.  People like you, with your visceral and quite stupid hatred have slugged away at Christianity before, prematurely jumping with glee at its supposed interment, even as it recovers and revitalises itself stronger than before. The fact you are wasting time focussing on Christianity as if it were a threat, while dismissing oligarchism to the distant second, is proof you continue to cover for your real masters.

False, Christianity is the opposite of reason at it's very core. This has already been shown again and again above. The question is why do feel that you need someone telling you what to do, especially someone threatening with guns bigger than the state's and who is the very embodyment of everything you know to be anti-rational and immoral.

 

“[T]he deterioration of nature is closely connected to the culture which shapes human coexistence”. Pope Benedict asked us to recognize that the natural environment has been gravely damaged by our irresponsible behaviour. The social environment has also suffered damage. Both are ultimately due to the same evil: the notion that there are no indisputable truths to guide our lives, and hence human freedom is limitless. We have forgotten that “man is not only a freedom which he creates for himself. Man does not create himself. He is spirit and will, but also nature.”

--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

[Koroviev]

“[T]he deterioration of nature is closely connected to the culture which shapes human coexistence”. Pope Benedict asked us to recognize that the natural environment has been gravely damaged by our irresponsible behaviour. The social environment has also suffered damage. Both are ultimately due to the same evil: the notion that there are no indisputable truths to guide our lives, and hence human freedom is limitless. We have forgotten that “man is not only a freedom which he creates for himself. Man does not create himself. He is spirit and will, but also nature.”

--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

Are you arguing that because a left-winged propagandist said some left-wing propaganda religion is rational? Also, isn't that the guy who just canonized a mass murderer? I guess that does go along with the "the initiation of the use of force is moral" argument...

[Will Torbald]

You don't value your war heroes either, I'm guessing.  Because that's what Jesus is, a war hero in the ongoing campaign against oligarchism.  People like you, with your visceral and quite stupid hatred have slugged away at Christianity before, prematurely jumping with glee at its supposed interment, even as it recovers and revitalises itself stronger than before. The fact you are wasting time focussing on Christianity as if it were a threat, while dismissing oligarchism to the distant second, is proof you continue to cover for your real masters.

 

“[T]he deterioration of nature is closely connected to the culture which shapes human coexistence”. Pope Benedict asked us to recognize that the natural environment has been gravely damaged by our irresponsible behaviour. The social environment has also suffered damage. Both are ultimately due to the same evil: the notion that there are no indisputable truths to guide our lives, and hence human freedom is limitless. We have forgotten that “man is not only a freedom which he creates for himself. Man does not create himself. He is spirit and will, but also nature.”

--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

 

To me both are the fruits of a higher disease called superstition and mysticism. The oligarchs you call are the state, I presume. Well, I'm an anarchist. I don't know who I am going to run to in search of a master. Both church and state are equally distasteful.