Should I take advantage of the welfare system

[adamNJ]

Should I take advantage of the welfare system

 

Eww gross

[shirgall]

Looks like a lot of people are making the choice...

 

 

(Zero Hedge has great graphs)

[KallanDaMan]

I'm not sure the answer to that question. Is it wrong to exploit the welfare system? In a sense, you are simply retrieving stolen money. You will probably pay the government more than you take from the government. I don't think the existence of the welfare state is dependent upon how many people draw on it, either. It will exist whether you exploit it or not. 

Walter Block makes the case that it's virtuous to take money from the state, because then the state has less money. I disagree with him here to a degree because the state doesn't run out of money. It will "create" what it doesn't have. 

I wouldn't attack you for exploiting the welfare system, but I am not 100% sure if I'd be morally comfortable doing the same thing. So I don't know. 

[regevdl]

Don't try to analyze me I am not having trouble putting a face to my "crimes" I don't have a guilty conscience that I need cleared. I am not stealing from you, the money is already stolen! you won't get it back, so me taking it has no relation to you not being able to get access to it in the future, in fact if I use the money to pay internet bills to use facebook to spread the ancap message then you are possibly seeing some of those funds back, (money which was, if you recall, gone forever), in the way of a more peaceful and enlightened society, so you're welcome. I'm also using it to help pay for a visa for my girlfriend who will have to leave the country if we can't cough up 7000, which might be wasted if our application is unsuccessful after a year of stress waiting to hear the verdict, I'm not doing well, only barely keeping my head above water.

 

I'm taking a risk to claim back some stolen money and put it to good use and you want to equate me with a common thief?

 

I came here to hear opinions not to be told what was the right thing to do. I've had convos with lots of people some don't understand, some don't want to, and the ones who do get angry or annoyed, but yes whenever I get the chance is the answer to "have I tried giving people a pee

 

 

The part you are missing is that your stolen money and my stolen money is in a 'pool' of money, is that accurate to say?  So if someone breaks into my bank account and steals my money and yours and a whole neighborhood and I find the safe they are keeping it in, then yes...by me going in and taking exactly what they stole from me...nothing more, is not stealing.  

 

However your approach has no plan or ledger, meaning, do you know exactly how much you need to get back.  Have you at least calculated how much tax you have paid for things you have not given consent for?  If you have then I have much respect because then, once you have received that total in welfare benefits, then you can stop.  Like if you calculate you have paid $50,000 over your life in non consensual taxes and once you receive that back in welfare, then you can get off of welfare.  

 

If that's your plan...hey...good on ya.  If you have not made these calculations, then you are likely to receive back more than you have paid in which.... you are stealing back my stolen money, indeed.

[regevdl]

Don't try to analyze me I am not having trouble putting a face to my "crimes" I don't have a guilty conscience that I need cleared. I am not stealing from you, the money is already stolen! you won't get it back, so me taking it has no relation to you not being able to get access to it in the future, in fact if I use the money to pay internet bills to use facebook to spread the ancap message then you are possibly seeing some of those funds back, (money which was, if you recall, gone forever), in the way of a more peaceful and enlightened society, so you're welcome. I'm also using it to help pay for a visa for my girlfriend who will have to leave the country if we can't cough up 7000, which might be wasted if our application is unsuccessful after a year of stress waiting to hear the verdict, I'm not doing well, only barely keeping my head above water.

 

I'm taking a risk to claim back some stolen money and put it to good use and you want to equate me with a common thief?

 

I came here to hear opinions not to be told what was the right thing to do. I've had convos with lots of people some don't understand, some don't want to, and the ones who do get angry or annoyed, but yes whenever I get the chance is the answer to "have I tried giving people a peek"

 

 

don't common thieves take a risk too?  Anyway, have you tried asking friends/family/community/Charity for that money? there are a lot of free market small/short term loan programs (even I've dontated to).  they are called microloans or gofundme.com, etc.

Have you considered these non-gvt options of obtaining the money you need?

 

Ancaps should practice what they preach, would you agree?  If we want to convince people that ethics will be the law of the land and generocity will help those in need so we don't need the gvt to take care of us, then you are giving off a mixed message.  Have you considered this?  It's cognitive dissonance by very definition and it's hard for people to compute when you say one thing but act another.  Just a friendly ancap to ancap suggestion.

 

Quick mental exercise:  I am sure when Stefan and Michael left their well paid jobs they were in a bit of a financial pinch or uncertainty and also had bills to pay and legitimate things to pay for.  Do you feel that they could be the icons of ancap'ism that they are today had they 'stolen back' their money?  For me, this act seems more like a Libertarian move since Libertarians still validate the existence of gvt by wanting to be part of gvt and the political system which requires tax money to make even the 'more virtuous' changes they desire...which every political group feels they are doing the virtuous thing. 

 

If you are having challenges getting through to people about ancapism....sometimes (not always) it's how we present it, rather than them not willing to receive the information or concept.  It takes a bit of humility to recognize and accept that.  Furthermore, maybe your method of stealing back money IS perfect for the Libertarian group.  pitch it to them and get feedback.  I am sure it will be better received than convincing an-caps that it's the prudent thing to do for the long term objective.

 

 

 

I am sure if you are implying that you are a kind, generous, helpful and compassionate person who is willing to take risks for the greater good, then surely you have people around you who care about and want to reciprocate your generocity towards them and patience in explaining the moral and ethical benefits of a society without gvt.  

 

If you don't have people like that in your life..... then maybe your efforts should be towards asking why that is rather than asking if you should take advantage of the welfare system (which was the title of your post). Or if you really are those wonderful things and the people around you don't appreciate it enough to support you in a time of need as you might have risked your security to help them, then it's time to get new friends/family/community who CAN appreciate those qualities and help when you need.  

[KallanDaMan]

I think taking from the state exactly what is stolen from you would be perfectly within the bounds of morality. Any more and you are relieving a thief of other peoples' money (which does not belong to you either).

If you were to calculate that the government has taken or will take $100,000 in total from you, keeping $100,000 in welfare benefits seems very legitimate. The remainder you cannot morally keep. If you were to donate it to charity it would almost certainly be better utilized than in the hands of the state (as the money cannot be reasonably returned to its rightful owners since you cannot know).

[regevdl]

I think taking from the state exactly what is stolen from you would be perfectly within the bounds of morality. Any more and you are relieving a thief of other peoples' money (which does not belong to you either).

 

If you were to calculate that the government has taken or will take $100,000 in total from you, keeping $100,000 in welfare benefits seems very legitimate. The remainder you cannot morally keep. If you were to donate it to charity it would almost certainly be better utilized than in the hands of the state (as the money cannot be reasonably returned to its rightful owners since you cannot know).

 

 

100%