square4 Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 I would like to understand better what are the available naturalistic explanations for miracles. As definition for miracle: simply those things that are commonly seen by religious people as a miracle, such as a person recovering from a seemingly incurable disease after prayer. My questions include things like: - What kind of diseases or mental problems can heal spontaneously, and which cannot? if so, how often (statistics), and by which means? - What does modern science say about emotions having effects on your body (placebo effect etc.), and what are the limits of these effects? - Suppose a miracle is a myth (it never happened), how do such myths arise? Do there exist information sources that contain a comprehensive and rigorous treatment of this subject? giving the best possible naturalistic explanations for the various types of miracles, given the current state of science, including a probability analysis. Pointers in the right direction would be appreciated.
Jot Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 It indirectly addresses the issue. [flash=]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkEZ5oLy0RM
WasatchMan Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 Given that the actual definition of miracle is: "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency" I think that it is axiomatically impossible to explain miracles in a naturalistic way. In other words, if something is explained by naturalistic ways, it ceases to become a miracle. Also, given an Aristotelian basis for metaphysics, miracles are impossible, and is just like the God of the gaps - only exists in areas where knowledge is insufficient to understand a process. Maybe your question is more properly, what is the psychological explanations of peoples belief of, and even attraction to, miracles (i.e. things that are impossible for humans to explain)? I would say it is an envy of the competent and a fear of death, for if there are things that are impossible for people to explain in this universe it means that there is something greater than nature.
neeeel Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 The things that ( I imagine) you are thinking of as miracles, such as recovering from cancer,a or surviving car crash, arent actually miracles. They are just outliers on the bell curve. Things that would really be miracles, such as growing a limb back after amputation, or walking unaided on water, it is not possible to study with science because there are no examples to study.
NotDarkYet Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 If I ever see something that is beyond known physical laws, the first explanation would come to mind is superior alien technology.
J-William Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 I want to see spontaneous regrowth of an amputated body part. That'll be much better evidence for divine intervention than uncle Bobs' syphillis getting better with some prayer (and visits to the doctor).
Guest Gee Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 I want to see heat flow from a cold to hot source of its own valition.
Donnadogsoth Posted September 1, 2015 Posted September 1, 2015 When we ask for miracles, the question is really, "Who's asking?" Why are they asking? Just to dick around with religion for awhile, or because we want to hear the answer. "Then [Lazarus] said [to Abraham], I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send [Lazarus] to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."--Luke 16:27-31
square4 Posted September 1, 2015 Author Posted September 1, 2015 Arguments against the supernatural or paranormal are interesting, but provide no explanation for what actually happened. I also want to see spontaneous regrowth of amputated body parts, but while it is not happening, in the mean time, I would like to explain the things that actually did happen. Below is an example miracle account, written around 1916 by a surgeon named John H. Bowen: "... I saw, I suppose, over one hundred healed of incurable diseases, such as we doctors can do nothing for; consumption, pellagra, Bright's disease, cancer, blindness and valvular heart trouble (or regurgitation of the blood). I saw these diseased persons healed two years ago and all of them that I am personally acquainted with are healed today. I will also mention two children I saw healed, one eighteen months old, who was born blind and seemed to have no marks of human intelligence; was badly deformed; had curvature of the spine so much so that the backbone was curved in such a manner as to be much higher that the shoulders. When Sister Etter prayed for it the eyes received sight; the human intelligence came in; that awful curvature of the spine straightened out; the baby stood on its feet and smiled for the first time of its life, so the father and mother said, and of course they shouted and praised God ..." The explanation "outliers on the bell curve" doesn't work if something is repeated too often. Maria Woodworth-Etter, who did the praying in this case - in a certain phase of her life, people have reported miracle after miracle, while other people experience no such thing. There must be a reason for that. I would like to know what is the best possible naturalistic explanation for these kind of things. 2
WasatchMan Posted September 2, 2015 Posted September 2, 2015 Below is an example miracle account, written around 1916 by a surgeon named John H. Bowen: "... I saw, I suppose, over one hundred healed of incurable diseases, such as we doctors can do nothing for; consumption, pellagra, Bright's disease, cancer, blindness and valvular heart trouble (or regurgitation of the blood). I saw these diseased persons healed two years ago and all of them that I am personally acquainted with are healed today. I will also mention two children I saw healed, one eighteen months old, who was born blind and seemed to have no marks of human intelligence; was badly deformed; had curvature of the spine so much so that the backbone was curved in such a manner as to be much higher that the shoulders. When Sister Etter prayed for it the eyes received sight; the human intelligence came in; that awful curvature of the spine straightened out; the baby stood on its feet and smiled for the first time of its life, so the father and mother said, and of course they shouted and praised God ..." My great great grandma was there she told me it didn't happen.
john cena Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 How exactly is a miracle being rooted in physics and logic any less of a miracle? I deem a miracle to be an event in which the odds of it happening are beyond the means of the timescale of this universe, things that would not have happened if not for careful planning in the starting conditions of the universe. Of course they can be logically explained, otherwise we must be living in a dream world.More importantly, if you could see physical proof of God, every single psychopath and sociopath would do whatever it took to mold themselves into the ideal candidate for heaven. If you could prove there was a God, the whole thing would be utterly pointless; the invisibility of God to the unbelieving is built into the very fabric of existence itself.
GailG Posted September 28, 2015 Posted September 28, 2015 In my opinion, the most complete explanation is in a book I am writing. I explain it rather like this: We are powerful creatures, and you can easily test that for yourself. Get two strile canning jars. Now cook some rice. Place the steaming (sterilized) rice in the jars. A couple of tablespoons each is enough. Label one love and the other hate. Place them about two feet apart where they will get equal environmental treatment. For the next month, whenever you see the rice, (at least once a day), hate the one labeled hate. Be as mean and insulting to it as you can. Project your dislike for it into the rice. Do the opposite with the one labeled love. Complement it. Tell it how beautiful and wonderful it is. Project your love into the rice at least once a day. It will take little time before the hated rice will turn moldy while the loved rice remains pristine looking. You can also do this with 3 jars of rice. Love one, hate one, and ignore the one in the middle. You will find that the one in the middle turns black and moldy. The other two jars look pretty OK, buty when the experiment is over, smell the two not-moldy jars of rice. The hated one will stink so bad you might gag while the loved one has a mild fermented smell that is not objectional. Our minds are powerful instruments. When we learn to discipline them, we can do amazing things. These aren't miracles. They are natural parts of our beings. We are gods.
Magnetic Synthesizer Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 In my opinion, the most complete explanation is in a book I am writing. I explain it rather like this: We are powerful creatures, and you can easily test that for yourself. Get two strile canning jars. Now cook some rice. Place the steaming (sterilized) rice in the jars. A couple of tablespoons each is enough. Label one love and the other hate. Place them about two feet apart where they will get equal environmental treatment. For the next month, whenever you see the rice, (at least once a day), hate the one labeled hate. Be as mean and insulting to it as you can. Project your dislike for it into the rice. Do the opposite with the one labeled love. Complement it. Tell it how beautiful and wonderful it is. Project your love into the rice at least once a day. It will take little time before the hated rice will turn moldy while the loved rice remains pristine looking. You can also do this with 3 jars of rice. Love one, hate one, and ignore the one in the middle. You will find that the one in the middle turns black and moldy. The other two jars look pretty OK, buty when the experiment is over, smell the two not-moldy jars of rice. The hated one will stink so bad you might gag while the loved one has a mild fermented smell that is not objectional. Our minds are powerful instruments. When we learn to discipline them, we can do amazing things. These aren't miracles. They are natural parts of our beings. We are gods. Did you do it yourself?
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