I do not like my girlfriends "friends"

[TheSchoolofAthens]

Ah, friends. I remember what those were. Then I discovered philosophy. I'm kidding, kinda. Fortunately I have a girlfriend and she is my best friend. She is an ancap, atheist, believes in peaceful parenting, etc. But she is my only true friend. I am okay with that reality. I'd rather be alone than in bad company. But I'd rather have good company instead, of course. I don't have any other friends than her because I know no one else who is rational. As everyone here knows, it is very difficult to find rational people who can become great friends in our day to day, real world lives. Given this reality, and my dedication to philosophy, I don't associate with people who are not rational and don't wish to learn about rationality. For example, if I like musical artist x, and I meet someone else who likes musical artist x, I will not go to a concert with that person if I find out that he/she is a mystic, or a socialist, or whatever else irrationality he/she lives by. My girlfriend disagrees. She thinks romantic relationships should be held to a high moral standard, and while she wants friends who meet those same standards, she thinks it is too lonely of a life to live because such friends are near impossible to find in real life. For example, she is going to a concert with a "friend" who is religious, socialist, and a pothead. I think that she is putting her fear of being alone above her philosophy. I'm very opposed to this type of Friendship - to the point which I don't think we can work as a romantic couple anymore. She doesn't want to lose me, but she doesn't want to lose her "friends" who either avoid rationality or oppose it. I brought this up, literally just yesterday, and I said that I don't want to stay together if she keeps those people in her life. She thinks that what I'm saying is not fair, and she doesn't see a problem in having a relationship with someone where a common bond is music, but where also their philosophies conflict. She says that her highest value is happiness, and I think that is correct, but she thinks that it is okay to get to that point by having these shallow relationships. Its actually that she thinks her happiness would be so depleted without such relationships, because then she would have no one to smoke with or go to a concert with. (Our music tastes vary, so I won't go with her)

 

I watched Molyneux's video "Friends or Virtue?" which he made seven years ago. I think he is right on the money.

 

I believe my approach is correct, and that hers is flawed, shallow, and short sighted, etc. What are your thoughts on standards in friendships? What are your thoughts on the relationship I'm in? Thank you for reading.

[TheSchoolofAthens]

Update: We just decided that we should break up and remain friends. I told her yesterday that I didn't think we would work any longer. We talked a lot today, both casually and about our relationship. We definitely enjoy each others company, but I am too much against the use of drugs that I can not sanction it any longer in a romantic relationship. We've agreed to be friends, and that when we see each other, she will not be high from marijuana. (or anything else of course) We cried it out, it hurts a lot, but the truth has set us free. We hugged each other and supported each other as we do truly respect one another more than anyone else in this world, for we've earned it. We held hands, in a supportive loving way that was not romantic. The connection was too powerful, I burst into tears, but I know that I've just shrugged a rock off of my shoulders. I am happy that I won't see her friends anymore, and that she wont be high around me. It feels wonderful, the past two years had been full of so much growing and love, but it is best for us to part.

I look forward to our friendship, and a more principled romantic relationship in the future, with whomever that may be. I know no one has yet replied to this thread. But thank you all so much for being the community which you are. It is amazing to find others dedicated to rationality and virtue. It makes me so happy to watch the FDR videos, log onto the forums and chat and discuss away. It has truly been a lifesaver. Thank you all for contributing to and creating this light. I plan on being more involved in the community from this point forward.

[thebeardslastcall]

If you think your position is the rational and/or virtuous position then and your girlfriend is a true friend yet you seem to be suggesting she is lacking in virtue or rationality or do not believe you can make the case to her as a rational person despite this somehow? Has she listened to that podcast and what are or were her thoughts on the matter? Why is she satisfied with those relationships versus you saying she should not be if she were rational and virtuous? What are her alternatives to going out with these people and why should she value that over going with these people or going to these music events alone? I mean what is she getting out of these relationships exactly? Do you feel she is running and hiding from her actual loneliness and that these relationships are fake in some way or is your fear that they are not fake and she is lacking to your standards by getting something out of these relationships or casual outings? You made it sound like she recognizes that her friends are not the standard she would like, but yet she keeps them anyways. Females have different social needs then men and perhaps you aren't taking this extra 'neediness' into account? Does she value these relationships more than she values you or will she resent you for making her give them up? Just some thoughts and questions to consider.

[Mister Mister]

maybe you two should call into the show about this?

[J. D. Stembal]

Happiness in not a virtue (or value), it is the result of pursuing a worthy goal.

[Wuzzums]

I'm very confused about the whole dynamic here. You broke up with her because she had friends? You didn't say her friend was someone that had a bad influence on her, or that dragged her down somehow. I'm guessing it was just someone she had a common interest with. Then you qualify your ex as a true friend, and you said she also saw you as a true friend. Why did you sacrifice true friendship for some person that had some common interest?

 

And here's what I really don't get. You could've just went through the trouble of going to a concert with her so she wouldn't have to go with that person you don't like. You did not go to the concert with her, she went with someone else, you broke up with her because she went with that someone else. Basically you two broke up for having different tastes in music. How was your relationship based on virtue and rationality again?

[TheSchoolofAthens]

I'm very confused about the whole dynamic here. You broke up with her because she had friends? You didn't say her friend was someone that had a bad influence on her, or that dragged her down somehow. I'm guessing it was just someone she had a common interest with. Then you qualify your ex as a true friend, and you said she also saw you as a true friend. Why did you sacrifice true friendship for some person that had some common interest?

 

And here's what I really don't get. You could've just went through the trouble of going to a concert with her so she wouldn't have to go with that person you don't like. You did not go to the concert with her, she went with someone else, you broke up with her because she went with that someone else. Basically you two broke up for having different tastes in music. How was your relationship based on virtue and rationality again?

 

I should have gone into more detail. My appologies. One of her friends likes to take molly every now and then, and just a few months ago was trying to influence my girlfriend to take it. We talked about it and I said I didn't want to be in a relationship with her if she were to take such a drug, and she then agreed it was a bad idea and her friend respected that. I don't like her friends because they are your typical college, party type. Drinking, smoking, partying - not my thing.

 

I do not like to go to these things, and I do not like to have relationships with people who go to these things. That is my main problem. The way they all use substances.

 

Edit: I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who has such people in her life. Becasue those bad behaviors end up impacting me and my happiness.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

"We talked about it and I said I didn't want to be in a relationship with her if she were to take such a drug, and she then agreed it was a bad idea and her friend respected that."

 

Were you curious about why she would be interested in taking such a drug? How did that conversation go?

[TheSchoolofAthens]

Matthew, I did ask and she said it's just for fun. And that it won't interfere with her work life or anything, that it will just be for fun. As to why she wanted to do it, I don't think there is a good answer - just for fun I suppose.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

Thanks for sharing. I do not have more to add that I think will be useful, but I was curious about that in particular. Have you considered calling into the show about this (someone else asked this, but I wasn't sure if you missed it or not or chose not to respond)?

[Wuzzums]

I should have gone into more detail. My appologies. One of her friends likes to take molly every now and then, and just a few months ago was trying to influence my girlfriend to take it. We talked about it and I said I didn't want to be in a relationship with her if she were to take such a drug, and she then agreed it was a bad idea and her friend respected that. I don't like her friends because they are your typical college, party type. Drinking, smoking, partying - not my thing.

 

I do not like to go to these things, and I do not like to have relationships with people who go to these things. That is my main problem. The way they all use substances.

 

Edit: I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who has such people in her life. Becasue those bad behaviors end up impacting me and my happiness.

 

Sounds to me like you weren't that much into her anyway. I got the impression from your original post that she was the cream of the crop, which is why breaking up with her because of some interests of hers seemed absurd to me. She hanging out with those types of people on a regular basis does seem like a red flag.

[TheSchoolofAthens]

Sounds to me like you weren't that much into her anyway. I got the impression from your original post that she was the cream of the crop, which is why breaking up with her because of some interests of hers seemed absurd to me. She hanging out with those types of people on a regular basis does seem like a red flag.

 

Yes, again I should have gone into more detail originally. She is definitely amazing to be with a lot of the times - it's so nice to talk about real important subjects in regards to philosophy and history. We've gone to so many libertarian events for the lectures, we've read together, learned together. The hard part is that we have so many similarities. Again, we are both atheists, ancaps, into peaceful parenting, etc. That is very rare to find. But just because it is rare to find doesn't mean it is right. I love those parts about her, but I value the human mind too much to be okay with drug use - even marijuana is a turn off for me. I smoked it occasionaly when her and I first met. When we started dating I started smoking more though, with her. Then I decided it wasn't for me to use, but she kept wanting to smoke it. She still smokes occasionally, a lot less than before, but I don't want it in my love love at all. I would understand if she used it for pain relief in a medical condition - but she doesn't have anything like that. So she smokes for relaxation, fun, socializing, etc.

 

She's definitely one of the smartest and coolest people I've come across, but she and I differ far too much in the social scene. I'd rather stay home and do something productive than go out with some people I know and smoke with them. This is something that we've had issues with for a while now, maybe a year. And I think the truth of it has finally come to full light and I'm ready to seperate. I've figured out what I do/don't want in my relationship - drug use is definitely one of those things, even casual use. Also, she will be 21 this month, so that means casual happy hours which is okay with me, but also she will have legal access to alcohol and probably want to go with her girlfriends to do night life things, like clubbing. Which makes me barf.

 

 

[Clark Gorny]

I am going to be very bunt with you. If you truly respect this girl you will distance yourself instead of enabling her destructive behavior. In my opinion you are setting yourself up for an on/off relationship. DANGER. DANGER. ABORT. ABORT. The longer you linger in the middle ground the more likely you are to submit to the temptations. 

 

She obviously does not care about herself if she is willing to give up a good relationship for imaginary friends.

 

Every day you linger in this post relationship failure friend zone the more you assure that the possibility of any healthy relationship is completely destroyed. Take time to heal away from her.. This girl has done damage, when you no longer have any feelings for her you can choose to be friends with her if you want although...

 

Did you not state previously that you do not hang with people who use drugs for recreation purposes? Why is she any different? You seem to have a high opinion of her.. So if anything your expectations for her should be higher not lower. Enabling destructive behavior is not only destructive to her but to your integrity.

 

From my perspective you are acting out of desperation not conviction. You are destroying your pride and dignity just by ignoring these facts.

 

Is any of this hitting home? Hopefully you find it helpful.

 

Stay Strong and Be Healthy

 

~Peace

[TheSchoolofAthens]

I am going to be very bunt with you. If you truly respect this girl you will distance yourself instead of enabling her destructive behavior. In my opinion you are setting yourself up for an on/off relationship. DANGER. DANGER. ABORT. ABORT. The longer you linger in the middle ground the more likely you are to submit to the temptations. 

 

She obviously does not care about herself if she is willing to give up a good relationship for imaginary friends.

 

Every day you linger in this post relationship failure friend zone the more you assure that the possibility of any healthy relationship is completely destroyed. Take time to heal away from her.. This girl has done damage, when you no longer have any feelings for her you can choose to be friends with her if you want although...

 

Did you not state previously that you do not hang with people who use drugs for recreation purposes? Why is she any different? You seem to have a high opinion of her.. So if anything your expectations for her should be higher not lower. Enabling destructive behavior is not only destructive to her but to your integrity.

 

From my perspective you are acting out of desperation not conviction. You are destroying your pride and dignity just by ignoring these facts.

 

Is any of this hitting home? Hopefully you find it helpful.

 

Stay Strong and Be Healthy

 

~Peace

 

Clark, you are absolutely right. You couldn't be closer to the truth. The relationship has been off and on. I know it's a cliche, but it's been quite the roller coaster ride. I stayed on the ride because I was afraid what I'd find out about myself if I got off - I'd be alone, I'd be without my girlfriend, I'd feel kinda beat down by the fact that we didn't stay together especially after being together for a while (sunk cost fallacy). She is not the one for me. I am okay with getting off the roller coaster ride now, I am ready and have matured enough to do it now. Now that I'm off, I realize how happy I will be and how great it feels to be on stable ground. It already feels wonderful.

 

Again, you are absolutely right. I had quite the contradiction in my above post. Why would I stay friends with her? I have my criteria set clearly, and she violates it with her drug use. I don't want to be friends with someone who does such drugs - she isn't any different, as you said, and she should be held to a higher standard since she can grasp anarchism, etc. It has been very destructive to my integrity. Every day that I was with her was a day in which I was not in a relationship that met my standards. Sad to look back on it, but I am happy I see it now and that the future will be different.

 

It all hit home. I thank you very much.

 

Edit: Also a bit of irony, I was wanting her to stop having such low standards and to stop hanging out with people who do drugs and have dangerous philosophies, when in reality I was with her for two years. *facepalm

At least I've seen the contradiction and acted appropriately.

[TheSchoolofAthens]

UPDATE:

So, three days after the break up - since we both moved to Austin about a month ago - we are still sharing a room together. I bought a sleeping bag to crash in, it fits great under my beautiful standing desk. I truly like it! But, I repeat three days after the break up, my ex asks if she can bring someone over to sleep in the room. She was very vague, but maybe that was because she was very drunk and that was combined with stupidity, I'm not sure, but I had to ask who it was a couple times before she would give a clear answer. It ends up being a guy that she met, I don't know when or where. They were both too drunk to drive home.

So here I am, on the floor, three days after the break up, and here she is drunk, with a guy I've never seen before who is also drunk, and they were planning on sleeping in the very same room. It was insane and disrespectful. Talk about a total lack of self respect, and total lack of respect for me and the boundaries that exist with literally sharing a room with another human being, especially after breaking up.

This really drives home the point though. Just think about her lack of character that is exposed in this. Three days after we break up, she gets drunk and tries to bring someone home and they want to sleep in the same room as the ex boyfriend (me) on the floor. Of course, it also reveals my lack of integrity over the past two years in my dating life as I chose her. I do not put it past her but I am still thinking "WTF is wrong with you."

I talked to, shoutout, LoneWolf on the chat last night. He was kind enough to stay online with me as we talked about it until the early hours of the morning. I truly appreciate that! We talked about my parents a bit, and I realized that I am a codependent enabler. I used to fit that role like a puzzle piece for my mom, as my dad wasn't emotionally supportive or very financially supportive either. I plan on going to therapy soon to talk about my relationship with my parents more in depth, as well as my previous romantic relationship.

[LoneWolf]

  It was a pleasure Nic (School of Athens).

    

      I hope you get out of that dangerous situation as soon as possible. Like I said yesterday, this could of ended a million times worse. 

  Bringing him home like that was a complete an utter disrespect to you and your boundaries.   

     Who knows how long she has been "with" this guy. She could of brought home something contagious. She could of gotten pregnant by this guy or another and lied to you about it... From what you said I think she had the potential of being very self destructive and for everyone around her.  

   

  Also I cannot remember if I told you already.... I am very skeptical if a girlfriend could be downgraded to a friend. Since you broke up with her then that means that there was something fundamentally incompatible or there was an opposition of values. Also I think there would be too much of a conflict of interest and also there would be a lot of topics that you would not be able to talk to her honestly about.  Could be wrong, but it is something to think about.  Therapy is a golden idea. 

 

   Hope you are feeling better. Take care. 

[TheSchoolofAthens]

  It was a pleasure Nic (School of Athens).

    

      I hope you get out of that dangerous situation as soon as possible. Like I said yesterday, this could of ended a million times worse. 

  Bringing him home like that was a complete an utter disrespect to you and your boundaries.   

     Who knows how long she has been "with" this guy. She could of brought home something contagious. She could of gotten pregnant by this guy or another and lied to you about it... From what you said I think she had the potential of being very self destructive and for everyone around her.  

   

  Also I cannot remember if I told you already.... I am very skeptical if a girlfriend could be downgraded to a friend. Since you broke up with her then that means that there was something fundamentally incompatible or there was an opposition of values. Also I think there would be too much of a conflict of interest and also there would be a lot of topics that you would not be able to talk to her honestly about.  Could be wrong, but it is something to think about.  Therapy is a golden idea. 

 

   Hope you are feeling better. Take care. 

 

Without a doubt! I enjoyed our jokes in the chat. If I were to stay friends with her, her behavior wouldn't change so it would be like "Did you have fun doing drugs and hooking up with strangers?! I hope you did!" To hell with that. Absolutely not.

 

You and I did talk about that, we made some jokes similar to what I said above. You said our conversations would go something like, with me saying, "How big is he down there?!" It would be absurd. And again, based on her lack of virtues, why would I want her in my life at all?

 

I look forward to seeing a professional. I already feel so mentally free and positive.

[Crallask]

Here's generally how I see friendships in the post relationship zone - impossible.

 

The reason I see it this was is cause if 2 people love each other in a genuine and true way then generally they'll grow together and love each other more.

 

If the relationship ends its cause at least 1 party wants it to be so due to growing apart (which will only become more pronounced over time) or because one or both people were shitty at relationships.

 

Whereas if I love the person, we're emotionally and logically compatible and they're generally pleasant to have in my life I just think about how I want to keep spending more time with that person.

[john cena]

Throw yourself and your philosophy at the unwashed masses and intermingle with them without prejudice, this is the way to enlighten the world. 

[thebeardslastcall]

however being vehemently against something with no personal knowledge of it is not a smart thing

 

You don't need to personally do drugs to realize their effects. I don't need to try death to know I should vehemently avoid it. If you want to know why he is "vehemently" against drugs you'd have to ask him and find out the specific reasons and challenge each on its merits (or lack thereof) and not just suggest he's being irrational because he hasn't done or isn't doing drugs. Some people, like myself, have a very high respect for their mental integrity and things which mess around with that, like pot, are thus toxic to our integrity and mental well being. I do not think it's kind to casually suggest someone is being irrational and should mess with their mental state with drugs without careful consideration. Just because you've done it and may think you're mentally okay doesn't mean it's okay. It's the hurtful things you can't diagnose or notice easily or see symptoms for that kill you and undermine you the most. Not just because they are toxic to you, but because you inconsiderately pass on that toxin to others (the idea and the drug).

 

Don't do drugs and stay out of school, kids!

[TheSchoolofAthens]

As thebeardslastcall beautifully said, I have a very high respect for my mental integrity and I like to keep it in tact.

I have, I am not happy to admit, smoked marijuana hundreds of times. The worst drug I've taken, and it's really limited to just marijuana, alcohol, and this, was tripple c's. Pills that make you incredibly high if you take about 16. My "friends" would steal them from the store, which was easy to do since they were just on the shelves of walmarts - they were intended to be used as cough medicine. I deeply regret doing that to my body and mind. It was incredibly irresponsible.

I took the pills to get high less than a dozen times, but that is still about 5 times too much. Why did I do the pills? Because I was damaged, and I was trying to get  a quick fix in order to feel better and feel not alone and feel happy. Of course drugs doesn't actually do that - it merely gives one the illusion of happiness and friends. Real happiness comes out of achieving ones values, and real friends don't do drugs with you, real friends make sure you never do them, or if you do do them, they help you to quit.

Drugs don't make the world different, but they can heavily distort your senses so that you feel like you are on a different level, but that's because you aren't functioning healthily. One doesn't take molly, acid, shrooms, etc. and suddenly become Ayn Rand or Stefan Molyneux. One takes drugs and loses grasp of reality, has his/her senses tampered with, etc.

So why am I against drug use for recreational purposes? Because I value reason, and therefore a functioning and healthy brain.

[john cena]

As thebeardslastcall beautifully said, I have a very high respect for my mental integrity and I like to keep it in tact.

 

I have, I am not happy to admit, smoked marijuana hundreds of times. The worst drug I've taken, and it's really limited to just marijuana, alcohol, and this, was tripple c's. Pills that make you incredibly high if you take about 16. My "friends" would steal them from the store, which was easy to do since they were just on the shelves of walmarts - they were intended to be used as cough medicine. I deeply regret doing that to my body and mind. It was incredibly irresponsible.

 

I took the pills to get high less than a dozen times, but that is still about 5 times too much. Why did I do the pills? Because I was damaged, and I was trying to get  a quick fix in order to feel better and feel not alone and feel happy. Of course drugs doesn't actually do that - it merely gives one the illusion of happiness and friends. Real happiness comes out of achieving ones values, and real friends don't do drugs with you, real friends make sure you never do them, or if you do do them, they help you to quit.

 

Drugs don't make the world different, but they can heavily distort your senses so that you feel like you are on a different level, but that's because you aren't functioning healthily. One doesn't take molly, acid, shrooms, etc. and suddenly become Ayn Rand or Stefan Molyneux. One takes drugs and loses grasp of reality, has his/her senses tampered with, etc.

 

So why am I against drug use for recreational purposes? Because I value reason, and therefore a functioning and healthy brain.

I can personally feel for the pain that resulted in and from your drug use. By no means am I trying to convince you to do something you obviously have a fear of, but I do feel the fear is unfounded as for the use of psychedelics. LSD is hundreds of times safer than pot and thousands of times safer than molly, you'd have to take over $100,000 worth of it to even possibly die, which you would also die if you ingested that much pure natural serotonin. As for pot and molly and dxm from walmart.. yeah of course that's not something to do often, or at all in the case of the last one. Those are terrible for your body (to a lesser extent pot obviously) and do not really provide any risk effective benefit from my point of view in terms of opening the mind.

 

 

 

One doesn't take molly, acid, shrooms, etc. and suddenly become Ayn Rand or Stefan Molyneux. One takes drugs and loses grasp of reality, has his/her senses tampered with, etc.

Absolutely, if you can not grasp reality while you are on psychedelics, of course you're not going to be able to get anything productive done. Obviously if that's the case, it's not for you. Remember, It's a tool like anything else. However I am simply saying that if you are secure enough in your mind to grasp reality from such an altered state, the benefits are exceptional. That and good company on the same level and ready to spend the next 10 hours delving into philosophy.. Well it's absolutely worth it in my opinion. Altered does not equal bad, immoral, or wrong implicitly. Your "sober" mental state is influenced by MUCH more than your state on LSD, you may not believe me but I actually feel more sober and objective if i can focus my energy, as it removes all human impulses for a while such as sleep, eating, sex drive, and most importantly once you break the barrier of ego and enter "ego loss" it is akin in my opinion to a deep meditative state. Basically your brain is overloaded with sense data to the point where it only has time to deal with the here and now in front of you. That's the most concise way I can explain it, all of the information that your brain usually discards about the environment (like 90% in my opinion) because it finds this information useless or counterproductive to it's goals. 

 

Really the single most effective result of psychedelics is Ego Loss (Or ego death. I prefer the term loss as it returns in a few hours..)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

Ego death is a "complete loss of subjective self-identity."^[1] The term is being used in various intertwined contexts, with related meanings.

 

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, just some thoughts on a probably subject you do not wish to enter back into, which I fully respect. 

[john cena]

Also to more directly answer your question, yes she is absolutely being narrow, short sighted, and naive. These friends will not bring her long term happiness, and every moment she spends with them being happy is equating to a moment in the future where they will most likely make her unhappy, assuming they are generally immoral people as you say, or at least carry immoral philosophies; the hurt is almost inevitable. 

I had a similar problem, and it turned out in the end that the principles that I loved the girl, were more or less only important to her because they were important to me, and she had an interest in using me for almost half a year until her borderline mask finally slipped off..

Not trying to throw out any labels here, just giving you a worst case scenario from personal experience. If I had it to do over, I would try and see how much these things really mean to her without asking or probing directly into it. [if they are why you love her, if not I guess they are not that important, but if that was the case, I don't assume you would be posting about it here] If I had known, I would have saved myself a lot of heartache and a lot of wasted time. 

[J. D. Stembal]

I estimate that I've spent $40-50,000 on drugs and alcohol in my lifetime. That puts the thread into perspective, doesn't it?

Athens: How did you end up moving in with this hot mess, and why are you sleeping on the floor?