How to Proceed With Broken Marriage

[awt]

My wife and I have been married for 6 years, and have an (almost) 5 year old daughter.

 

My wife is verbally abusive.  I knew this before I married her, but did not fully understand at the age of 27 when we moved in together how this would intensify after getting married and becoming parents.  It did not occur to me that anyone would yell at and nag their child on a daily basis.

 

She stayed home for the first 2 years after our daughter was born.  When our daughter was 3, she chose to pursue a law degree.  This has left me fully financially responsible for the family, and for parenting.  I would estimate that I do 80% of the parenting, and earn 100% of the income.  This would not be so bad if I didn't have to put up with daily verbal abuse about not doing x chore right, or hearing her start a fight with our 5 year old daily.

 

I've done a lot of thinking about how I ended up in this situation - why I chose her.  I believe I chose her because she asked nothing of me emotionally.  She can hold entire conversations with herself without ever requiring any sort of response.  She viewed sex as transactional which made things easy for a passive aggressive person such as myself.  Likewise, she is not curious about my thoughts and feelings, so I didn't have to share my deep seated fears about relationships and trust.

 

Being a child of divorce, I was not aware of what I was missing.  After listening to Stefan daily for nearly a year, I am now *painfully* aware of what I and my daughter are missing.  To be able to hold a meaningful conversation with my spouse not ending in shouting and ad hominems... what would life be like?  To be able to discuss any serious topic without triggering a narcissistic rage...  Not to have to put up with the humiliation of succumbing to verbal bullying simply to avoid a fight in front of our daughter...

 

I have seen a therapist.  He has recommended couples therapy, which she has reluctantly agreed to, but I've yet to schedule a session.  I don't have much hope that counseling will change anything, but I will do it.

 

I fully understand now the importance of fixing this for my daughter - so she can see a successful marriage.

 

The problem is that I don't know if I have the strength to see this through.  The fantasy of escaping the daily abuse through divorce or separation or avoidance dogs me constantly.

 

In short, I don't know how to proceed.

 

[Kurtis]

 

In short, I don't know how to proceed.

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing these very serious feelings and experiences.  I'm so sorry for your situation

 

I often feel gratitude for somehow avoiding marriage and children in my pre-aware days, as like yourself, I did not have tools then to do either successfully.  

 

I understand how painful this must be for you, and how important it is to improve the situation for all members of your family.  I also commend you for facing this difficult issue on behalf of your daughter.  I don't have much to offer as an answer to your question on how to proceed.  It sounds that even though your wife may be reluctant to go to therapy, that this would be the best first step to try and take action on.

 

I imagine that she will need plenty of therapy just to work on herself, let alone on your relationship and parenting.  How long have you been in therapy?  You sound very aware of your actions, do you feel that you also have much more work to do?  I know for myself that at times when I was dealing with very challenging work, which I often felt very alone in experiencing, my therapist was a great ally.  In that regard, what, if any, support system do you have for you and your daughter (friends, family, etc)?

 

It does not sound like you are able to have rational or productive communication with your wife.  If that were possible, using RTR techniques might enable her to see how her actions are harming you and your daughter.  If that is not possible, seek professional help (as in a therapist).  Your wife needs communication skills, empathy, and self knowledge.

 

At the very least, you doing work on yourself will be of great benefit to your daughter.  However, as you described, you having to submit to your wife's irrationality is not a good example to set even if it avoids escalation in her behaviour.  Your daughter needs to know that she has at least one competent caretaker who will keep her safe.  How to go about doing that (and more) is well beyond my knowledge.  Seek the guidance of people who do have this knowledge and/or experience.

 

I'm sorry I can't offer more support than that.  My heart goes out to you.  Have gratitude for finding your way to the knowledge that you already have and forgiveness for your self, so that you can be strong for your daughter.

[Hamish]

I don't have any great advice. I would like to say that while it's important for your daughter to see a successful relationship, it is equally important that she not see her mother constantly abusing her father without consequence. Its a pretty crushing situation to be in, I am truly sorry to hear.

 

What does your wife bring to the table in terms of virtues?

 

Do you feel she is willing and capable to introspect?

[lbnuke]

awt, I want to thank you for your post and commend you on your courage to post this topic and your experiences here with the group. I'm sorry that you're in the situation that you're in especially with your daughter. I also have a 5-year old son and am in a similar situation with my wife: escalating conversations, name-calling, etc. I want to let you know that I'm interested in hearing more about your experience and how you have found success in any way you find it.

 

When I've tried to use the RTR approach with my wife, the conversation turns to me being fucked up, me being called names, and her thinking that I'm throwing the guilt card at her. I just want to share that experience with you because RTR is your choice to use or not; it's not a requirement to move forward. However, Stef clearly states that bringing RTR to a situation usually brings you to a point where it will work going forward, or you'll have the closure that you need emotionally that you need. Either way, the conclusion will present itself.

 

Do you and your wife agree on your parenting styles and how you'd like to raise your daughter? If you agree, do you implement your parenting in different ways or the same ways? Do you think that you had an established value system when you met and courted your wife? I ask this because I think that over time, values can change, especially if they're not rooted in the non-aggression principle and voluntary exchange. 

[awt]

 

I imagine that she will need plenty of therapy just to work on herself, let alone on your relationship and parenting.  How long have you been in therapy?  You sound very aware of your actions, do you feel that you also have much more work to do?  I know for myself that at times when I was dealing with very challenging work, which I often felt very alone in experiencing, my therapist was a great ally.  In that regard, what, if any, support system do you have for you and your daughter (friends, family, etc)?

 

 

Kurtis, thankyou for your response.  I was in therapy for about 4 months.  I definitely have a lot more work to do on myself.  I am very angry about the unfairness of this situation, and I can't seem to get a grip on my passive aggression.   It is so totally built in.  All I can say is that I'm thankful that I'm at least aware of it now.

 

I have a very limited support system.  My Dad visited for a few months this year to help out with childcare in the evenings and weekends.  My aunt takes my daughter one evening a week.  My Mom has basically checked out.  She says I can bring her to visit, but it never works out.  She plays in a bluegrass band and is out most nights and sleeps several hours during the day so my daughter ends up watching TV while she sleeps and I work.  

 

I think you're right that the best thing to do is couples therapy.

I don't have any great advice. I would like to say that while it's important for your daughter to see a successful relationship, it is equally important that she not see her mother constantly abusing her father without consequence. Its a pretty crushing situation to be in, I am truly sorry to hear.

 

What does your wife bring to the table in terms of virtues?

 

Do you feel she is willing and capable to introspect?

 

Thanks Hamish.  Great question about virtues.  She is very loyal.  Although she constantly suspects me of cheating on her (because that's what her dad did) and taking advantage of her (because that's what her father, mother, and brother did), she would never cheat on me.  She is motivated by a desire to do good, however misguided I believe her efforts to be.  She was born in a refugee camp and grew up as a minority in the US (and suffered child abuse).  I think she believes that by becoming a lawyer she can help her people and others like her.  Frankly I don't think becoming a slave to the US legal system and incurring a massive amount of debt at the age of 38 with a 5 year old kid will help anyone, but I see where she's coming from.

 

I do not believe she is capable at this point of introspection - I think it's just too painful for her.  She can personalize *any* topic not involving furniture, party planning, clothing choice, etc.  Can't talk about Hillary clinton or public school - ends in a fit of rage.  You know - Hillary clinton is a woman, I am a woman, therefor nothing may be wrong with Hillary Clinton.  She went to public school so there can't be anything bad about public school.

 

Sometimes she says things aloud about herself that she knows are true like "I have PTSD."  But her understanding of this is at a superficial level and doesn't seem to connect.

[awt]

awt, I want to thank you for your post and commend you on your courage to post this topic and your experiences here with the group. I'm sorry that you're in the situation that you're in especially with your daughter. I also have a 5-year old son and am in a similar situation with my wife: escalating conversations, name-calling, etc. I want to let you know that I'm interested in hearing more about your experience and how you have found success in any way you find it.

 

When I've tried to use the RTR approach with my wife, the conversation turns to me being fucked up, me being called names, and her thinking that I'm throwing the guilt card at her. I just want to share that experience with you because RTR is your choice to use or not; it's not a requirement to move forward. However, Stef clearly states that bringing RTR to a situation usually brings you to a point where it will work going forward, or you'll have the closure that you need emotionally that you need. Either way, the conclusion will present itself.

 

Do you and your wife agree on your parenting styles and how you'd like to raise your daughter? If you agree, do you implement your parenting in different ways or the same ways? Do you think that you had an established value system when you met and courted your wife? I ask this because I think that over time, values can change, especially if they're not rooted in the non-aggression principle and voluntary exchange. 

 

Thanks Logan.

 

The escalation and name calling is so boring and repetitive, and yet still painful every time

 

We do not agree on parenting styles, and how we'd like to raise her, although seeing as she has no time to parent, being in law school, I tend to have more influence there.  The major problem I have (other than her being mostly absent) is that she thinks it's ok to yell at, nag and intimidate our daughter (and me).

 

There was not much thinking about values going on when we were courting -- a lot of working, TV watching and traveling.

 

I have RTR but have not read all the way through yet.  I owe it to my daughter to read that book and try its suggestions out.

[Hamish]

Have you explored her loyalty? What is it that underlies her loyalty?

 

Are you able to get along in other areas?

 

If you're correct that she isn't capable of introspection, then it seems like fixing things will be impossible. Have you talked about the idea of separation? Or is that an impossible conversation?

[mahayana]

AWT, I'm so sorry you're stuck in this really crappy situaltion. No matter which decision you make, there will be pain & suffering involved. If you decide to stay in the marriage and your wife doesn't change, your morale & self esteem will slowly be whittled down by the daily barrage of put downs and nagging. If you leave her, you will have to endure the costliness of divorce, custody battles and worst of all, the confusion and heartbreak your daughter will be put through. I'm also the parent of a little girl and I know what a burden being faced with a seemingly impossible decision feels like.

 

I want to mention something for you to consider. You and your wife have similarities to my own parents. My father was an easygoing & passive man. (To this day, I have not once heard him raise his voice.) He will do anything to avoid conflict. My mother was the polar oppisite. She was brash, turned everything into an argument and was verbally & physically abusive. As the recipient of physical & verbal abuse, I can tell you that verbal abuse can be just as harmful as the physical!  As a child, I thought my father was a kind and sweet man. All of my life I've had so much anger towards my mom for mistreating my dad. After having listened to Stef & gaining some self knowledge in recent years, I realized I have even more resentment towards my dad for allowing my mom to mistreat us. My parents are still married today. I wish my father had divorced my mom the first second she laid her hands on her children. I will spend the rest of my life trying to undo the damage she inflicted on me. In my opinion the sanctity of marriage doesn't mean shit when abuse is present. Sorry for going on, what I'm trying to say is although marriage is of course ideal when raising a child, if the parents are incapable of respecting each other (which according to what you have said, your wife seems unable to do so at this time) then it is in the best interest of everyone to dissolve the marriage.

 

There is a shimmer of hope since your wife agreed to do therapy even though reluctantly. I really hope you can open her eyes to her behavior and the damage it is doing to everyone. I also hope you put your foot down when it comes to her raising her voice to your daughter. That should not be tolerated. Good luck to you and congrats on taking the first steps to fix things.

[awt]

AWT, I'm so sorry you're stuck in this really crappy situaltion. No matter which decision you make, there will be pain & suffering involved. If you decide to stay in the marriage and your wife doesn't change, your morale & self esteem will slowly be whittled down by the daily barrage of put downs and nagging. If you leave her, you will have to endure the costliness of divorce, custody battles and worst of all, the confusion and heartbreak your daughter will be put through. I'm also the parent of a little girl and I know what a burden being faced with a seemingly impossible decision feels like.

 

I want to mention something for you to consider. You and your wife have similarities to my own parents. My father was an easygoing & passive man. (To this day, I have not once heard him raise his voice.) He will do anything to avoid conflict. My mother was the polar oppisite. She was brash, turned everything into an argument and was verbally & physically abusive. As the recipient of physical & verbal abuse, I can tell you that verbal abuse can be just as harmful as the physical!  As a child, I thought my father was a kind and sweet man. All of my life I've had so much anger towards my mom for mistreating my dad. After having listened to Stef & gaining some self knowledge in recent years, I realized I have even more resentment towards my dad for allowing my mom to mistreat us. My parents are still married today. I wish my father had divorced my mom the first second she laid her hands on her children. I will spend the rest of my life trying to undo the damage she inflicted on me. In my opinion the sanctity of marriage doesn't mean shit when abuse is present. Sorry for going on, what I'm trying to say is although marriage is of course ideal when raising a child, if the parents are incapable of respecting each other (which according to what you have said, your wife seems unable to do so at this time) then it is in the best interest of everyone to dissolve the marriage.

 

There is a shimmer of hope since your wife agreed to do therapy even though reluctantly. I really hope you can open her eyes to her behavior and the damage it is doing to everyone. I also hope you put your foot down when it comes to her raising her voice to your daughter. That should not be tolerated. Good luck to you and congrats on taking the first steps to fix things.

 

Thanks mahayana.  This weighs heavily on my mind.  I have stepped in on many occasions - which inevitably causes a bigger fight, but as you say at least she knows someone is on her side, even if it doesn't prevent future harassment.

 

Divorce is really rolling the dice though as far as I can tell.  Who knows how that would turn out?  She might end up with her mom full time and at that point there would be nothing I could do to protect her.

[Kurtis]

Divorce is really rolling the dice though as far as I can tell.  Who knows how that would turn out?  She might end up with her mom full time and at that point there would be nothing I could do to protect her.

People have amazing capabilities to change. If she is willing to try therapy then I think that is important and should be thoroughly explored before any decisions are made.

 

I know nothing about legal precedent in your area, but if nothing else, for you to actively be pursuing solutions should strengthen your case should it come to that. Even documenting what goes on might help (but again, seek professional guidance on this also).

 

Therapy is a powerful tool in healing, but also requires time and commitment to the work. I hope you are able to reconnect with your wife and heal what is broken.

[mahayana]

Thanks mahayana.  This weighs heavily on my mind.  I have stepped in on many occasions - which inevitably causes a bigger fight, but as you say at least she knows someone is on her side, even if it doesn't prevent future harassment.

 

Divorce is really rolling the dice though as far as I can tell.  Who knows how that would turn out?  She might end up with her mom full time and at that point there would be nothing I could do to protect her.

I don't know if your wife would get defensive if you shared this article with her, but it (along with Stef's videos of course) was very helpful for me to stop yelling at my daughter. Good luck again and I hope you're able to find a way to cope with everything. Long term stress is a bitch on the body & mind.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-orange-rhino/10-things-i-learned-when-i-stopped-yelling_b_2886161.html

[J. D. Stembal]

My wife and I have been married for 6 years, and have an (almost) 5 year old daughter.

 

My wife is verbally abusive.  I knew this before I married her, but did not fully understand at the age of 27 when we moved in together how this would intensify after getting married and becoming parents.  It did not occur to me that anyone would yell at and nag their child on a daily basis.

 

She stayed home for the first 2 years after our daughter was born.  When our daughter was 3, she chose to pursue a law degree.  This has left me fully financially responsible for the family, and for parenting.  I would estimate that I do 80% of the parenting, and earn 100% of the income.  This would not be so bad if I didn't have to put up with daily verbal abuse about not doing x chore right, or hearing her start a fight with our 5 year old daily.

 

I've done a lot of thinking about how I ended up in this situation - why I chose her.  I believe I chose her because she asked nothing of me emotionally.  She can hold entire conversations with herself without ever requiring any sort of response.  She viewed sex as transactional which made things easy for a passive aggressive person such as myself.  Likewise, she is not curious about my thoughts and feelings, so I didn't have to share my deep seated fears about relationships and trust.

 

Being a child of divorce, I was not aware of what I was missing.  After listening to Stefan daily for nearly a year, I am now *painfully* aware of what I and my daughter are missing.  To be able to hold a meaningful conversation with my spouse not ending in shouting and ad hominems... what would life be like?  To be able to discuss any serious topic without triggering a narcissistic rage...  Not to have to put up with the humiliation of succumbing to verbal bullying simply to avoid a fight in front of our daughter...

 

I have seen a therapist.  He has recommended couples therapy, which she has reluctantly agreed to, but I've yet to schedule a session.  I don't have much hope that counseling will change anything, but I will do it.

 

I fully understand now the importance of fixing this for my daughter - so she can see a successful marriage.

 

The problem is that I don't know if I have the strength to see this through.  The fantasy of escaping the daily abuse through divorce or separation or avoidance dogs me constantly.

 

In short, I don't know how to proceed.

 

On a scale of 1-10, what are we talking about attractiveness-wise? How often is sex forthcoming, especially since the birth of your daughter? Does she ever withhold sex from you?

 

It sounds as if she is providing sex and eggs for a law degree. Is this accurate? What legal specialty is she moving toward?

 

As the breadwinner, consider sheltering assets from your wife as soon as possible. Most likely, this marriage will not have a happy ending from the manner in which you describe it.

[awt]

I wanted to update this thread.  Recently things have been a lot better between my wife and I.  I'm not sure exactly why, probably a combination of things.  I started responding VERY aggressively to any instances of her yellying at or intimidating our daughter, and after a few weeks of that, something clicked in her brain - like - she became aware of what she was doing, and she has really toned it down.

 

Also, things have been a lot better between us sexually (we changed up our birth control method), which has helped my happiness level on a day to day basis a lot.

 

I am still sad that she has chosen to pursue a law degree rather than spend time with her 5 yo kid, but there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that now.  The choice has been made, the student loan money has been spent, and there is no better mother out there for my daughter.  I will always wonder what it would have been like to have a parter who was "around," and I will always harbor some bitterness about it.

[J. D. Stembal]

I wanted to update this thread.  Recently things have been a lot better between my wife and I.  I'm not sure exactly why, probably a combination of things.  I started responding VERY aggressively to any instances of her yellying at or intimidating our daughter, and after a few weeks of that, something clicked in her brain - like - she became aware of what she was doing, and she has really toned it down.

 

Also, things have been a lot better between us sexually (we changed up our birth control method), which has helped my happiness level on a day to day basis a lot.

 

I am still sad that she has chosen to pursue a law degree rather than spend time with her 5 yo kid, but there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that now.  The choice has been made, the student loan money has been spent, and there is no better mother out there for my daughter.  I will always wonder what it would have been like to have a parter who was "around," and I will always harbor some bitterness about it.

 

Can you describe how you intervened aggressively? Are you articulating your feelings of bitterness to your wife? You can't afford to keep a lid on that.

[awt]

Can you describe how you intervened aggressively? Are you articulating your feelings of bitterness to your wife? You can't afford to keep a lid on that.

 

 

Sure.  Anytime I'm around and I hear their conversation devolving into bickering, or I hear her attempting to bully or manipulate her, I step in with a statement like.  "What's going on here?"  "What's the problem?"  I act very quickly and assertively.  I was and still am very consistent about it, though it happens a lot less.

 

There were a couple of times where I was the target of a tirade (with our daughter watching), once because I wanted to keep the blinds closed after having had eye surgury a week before, and responded by rasing my voice to the same level as hers which frankly was at shouting level, and which I've *almost never* done before.  I of course apologized sincerely to my daughter afterwards for her having to see that. 

 

I'm trying to think about exactly what I've said to her regarding the bitterness I feel.  I've told her that I feel like a single parent, at least a couple of times.  She will usually respond by saying that even though right now she's not helping with either paying bills or raising the kid, that after law school is over she will.  I wish I could believe that, but when you owe 300k in student loans, and are starting out at a new firm or company with average starting salaries for the 60% of applicants that get jobs of 80k/yr (in the SF Bay area that's not much -- that's living with roommates), you won't be contributing much to the family in terms of either time or money.  Also, let's say at some point she's ready to be a parent, when our daughter is 8 or 10, for example.  Well, that's a lot easier than it was when she was 3,4,5, and 6. 

 

So I'm not sure there is much she can do at this point about my bitterness.  Can't go back in time and not sign the student loan document...  I think it would take years of her being *really* nice to me for me to stop being bitter.

[awt]

I guess things weren't going as well as I thought.  My wife finished her finals last week.  Shortly after, she had a major outburst, with yelling and crying.  She tends to make false accusations (you're having an affair, etc.) for which there's no way to prove my innocence.  Happens over and over. In this instance I did not respond with yelling, though I did not allow myself to be cowed.

 

I had a very different reaction, internally, this time than I've had before.  Usually, the such an outburst would cause me to feel very high levels of stress.  The kind that makes it so you can't sleep for a day or so, that just washes over you, kills your appetite, etc.

 

Something was different.  I could kind of understand what was going on in her head.  I know what it's like to work your ass off on something for a long time, and then for it to suddenly be over.  Even if the outcome of your effort was good, you can feel depressed when it's suddenly over and you become somewhat directionless.  I think this is what she was going through.  Obviously she could have handled it better, and been more aware of the source of her feelings.

 

Also, after listening to so many of Stef's shows, I could instantly identify her use of various manipulative techniques.  Knowing what they were saved me the trouble of feeling their sting. 

 

Later that day she sent me a text saying she was sorry, and I did something I normally would not have done.  I didn't feel any bitterness or rage, I just immediately texted back that I accepted her apology.

Maybe a year ago, I would have spent the next week fantasizing about a divorce, and regretting marrying her and on and on, but I didn't feel that way this time.

[Stephen Jennings]

Sorry to hear what you are going through.

 

I'm no expert but maybe filming one of these outbursts from start to finish, could help show her the way she is behaving.

Place a camera somewhere, show her it and try and talk it through calmly if possible. 

[awt]

Just an update.  We've now been to two couples therapy sessions.  My wife went on a tirade in the first session (and the second session, with swearing), just like she does at me and our daughter, in private.  The poor guy almost told us he couldn't help us, after the first session, but he stuck with us, and I think we've made a little progress.  Also my wife didn't get good enough grades to stay in law school, so that's over for now.

 

Stephen: I've often thought of videoing or recording something, but that's hard to pull off.  Plus, she did it in front of the therapist, which is just as good if not better.

 

mellomama, I have checked out alturtle.  I'm still working my way through RTR though.

[Jaeger]

Just an update.  We've now been to two couples therapy sessions.  My wife went on a tirade in the first session (and the second session, with swearing), just like she does at me and our daughter, in private.  The poor guy almost told us he couldn't help us, after the first session, but he stuck with us, and I think we've made a little progress.  Also my wife didn't get good enough grades to stay in law school, so that's over for now.

 

awt,

 

I'm so glad to hear that you feel you are making progress with your wife.  Me and my wife did therapy about 8 years ago and it really helped.  I don't have any real advice other than just keep with it and over time your relationship will improve.  The important thing is learning how to communicate and learning each others needs.   One book that was beneficial to me was His Need Her Needs by Willard F. Harley, Jr.

 

In a lot of ways your relation ship is like mine and my wife only she was the passive aggressive and I was the vocal one.  Once I made the commitment to stop the yelling things improved dramatically in the home.  I can't say things are always perfect but they are always improving.  My wife also has made great changes and she tells me how she feels now.  I sure hope that you and your wife have similar changes.  I hope you and your wife the best of luck.  You already made the first step together, keep with it and you lives will improve.

 

 

Paul

[mosuper]

I'm new here but wow! What a post similar to me.

I just exited my marriage with my verbally abusive wife. We have two kids ages 5 and 1.5. We stayed together (and had our 2nd child) because I hoped that things would be better for the children if we were together. I finally couldn't watch and be complicit in any abuse of the children (complicit because I was there watching and unable to intervene). So about a month ago, I moved out and down the street a couple blocks.

 

We tried everything--couples therapy, talking, etc. Nothing worked or really helped any changes.

 

I found freedomainradio last fall and that was a breakthrough for me. Stefan's book of relationships was awesome and provided the base for my final push out of the relationship. And, it led to some particularly ugly moments that my wife couldn't deny as ugly so she was somewhat understanding when I was ready to go (which I think will lead to a less vindictive finalization when we finally settle the divorce). Most importantly, I'm slowly discovering what it was in me that led me to getting in to such a relationship.

 

So far so good for me. I guess this verbally abusive women with a passive man is somewhat common!

[AccuTron]

"So far so good for me. I guess this verbally abusive women with a passive man is somewhat common!"

 

Yup.  Been there, done that.  And she would not not not be accountable for her behavior, couldn't discuss it.