Volkswagen Outwits the EPA

[MagnumPI]

Anyone keeping up on this? I got raving mad about the public's reaction. Here they go out on a huge multi-billion dollar limb to give the consumers exactly what they've been begging for and what do they get? A heavy, swift kick right in the balls.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/why-the-us-is-attackiing-volkswagen/

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/21/vw-dieselgate-effect-on-us-diesel/

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/the-wrath-of-volkswagens-drivers.html

[McBeer]

I can't help but wonder if this is related to Volkswagen not making a deal with the UAW. You know what happens if you don't pay the mob for their protection. Maybe it's completely unrelated, I don't know.

[shirgall]

A lot of people were curious how VW managed to make the TDI meet standards without resorting to the AdBlue "horse urine" additive that most other diesels require. It was curiosity about this feat that led to their system being independently evaluated. Yay science!

 

Frankly, this is no different than selectable tunings you find on other cars (like "sport", "economy", and "cruising") where the tuning is changes to restricted emissions at significant cost to delivered power. But they hid it instead of making it selectable. What was ingenious was detecting the emissions control equipment being connected to the OBD port instead of a diagnostic reader. I wonder what would have happened if they had instead kept this technique above board, like a "traffic" setting.

[cab21]

the article said the company committed fraud in how it advertised to consumers. so that's more than "outwitting" the EPA.

[MagnumPI]

the article said the company committed fraud in how it advertised to consumers. so that's more than "outwitting" the EPA.

Feel free to back it up.

[MagnumPI]

A lot of people were curious how VW managed to make the TDI meet standards without resorting to the AdBlue "horse urine" additive that most other diesels require. It was curiosity about this feat that led to their system being independently evaluated. Yay science!

 

Frankly, this is no different than selectable tunings you find on other cars (like "sport", "economy", and "cruising") where the tuning is changes to restricted emissions at significant cost to delivered power. But they hid it instead of making it selectable. What was ingenious was detecting the emissions control equipment being connected to the OBD port instead of a diagnostic reader. I wonder what would have happened if they had instead kept this technique above board, like a "traffic" setting.

Exactly, and technically, the car can still get any advertised number. Not to mention, if you get a ecu tune from a handful of tuning houses, you get even more HP, MPG and potentially emissions, which to my knowledge is only 'for off-highway use' in California. Or not, but people do it anyway and there's nobody rolling out the guillotines for them. Exactly -0- drivers see the same numbers the EPA does during their tests. Whether it's emissions, fuel consumption, performance or otherwise. There's literally, nothing to see here and it's being bandied like the start of WWIII.

[cab21]

Feel free to back it up.

 

the article says they admitted it, lawers on the case will do a better job backing it up than me, here.

 

 some quotes from the article

 

Volkswagen’s stunning admission that it sold diesel-powered cars that intentionally faked emissions testing results has left many of their owners — who thought they were buying fuel-efficient and environmentally friendly vehicles — angry and feeling betrayed.

 

John Schilling, a Volkswagen spokesman, said in an email that it was unclear how long it would take to start fixing vehicles, but that the automaker was “committed to fixing this issue as soon as possible” and to developing “a remedy that meets emissions standards and satisfies our loyal and valued customers.”

 

“Of course, owners who bought these diesel vehicles in part because of any environmental benefits may have moral objections to driving them, and they may feel they have no other option but to keep their cars parked for the time being,” Ms. Caldwell said. “And then there are owners who just feel flat-out deceived and will want their money back.

[MagnumPI]

the article says they admitted it, lawers on the case will do a better job backing it up than me, here.

 

 some quotes from the article

 

Volkswagen’s stunning admission that it sold diesel-powered cars that intentionally faked emissions testing results has left many of their owners — who thought they were buying fuel-efficient and environmentally friendly vehicles — angry and feeling betrayed.

 

John Schilling, a Volkswagen spokesman, said in an email that it was unclear how long it would take to start fixing vehicles, but that the automaker was “committed to fixing this issue as soon as possible” and to developing “a remedy that meets emissions standards and satisfies our loyal and valued customers.”

 

“Of course, owners who bought these diesel vehicles in part because of any environmental benefits may have moral objections to driving them, and they may feel they have no other option but to keep their cars parked for the time being,” Ms. Caldwell said. “And then there are owners who just feel flat-out deceived and will want their money back.

 

Admitted what? There's practically nothing written in that article that isn't opinion.

[cab21]

Admitted what? There's practically nothing written in that article that isn't opinion.

 

 

from Volkswagen's website

 

it does say Volkswagen is looking into the situation, at least.

 

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2015/09/Volkswagen_AG_has_issued_the_following_information.html

[fractional slacker]

One of the lame stream news outlets interviewed some VW owners who were visibly upset and self flagellating at the thought they had harmed the environment. It was quite amusing to watch.

[MagnumPI]

from Volkswagen's website

 

it does say Volkswagen is looking into the situation, at least.

 

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2015/09/Volkswagen_AG_has_issued_the_following_information.html

It. The situation. Not fraud. Maybe we can cover the topics of 'some stuff', 'folks' and 'that one thing while we're here.

[cab21]

It. The situation. Not fraud. Maybe we can cover the topics of 'some stuff', 'folks' and 'that one thing while we're here.

 

the situation was that the cars had higher emissions than advertised.

 

why would a company put aside money and recall a  product if the company thought the product did not need the recall? what are they going to do with the recalled cars if the company thinks it needs to do nothing?

[shirgall]

the situation was that the cars had higher emissions than advertised.

 

why would a company put aside money and recall a  product if the company thought the product did not need the recall? what are they going to do with the recalled cars if the company thinks it needs to do nothing?

 

They advertised that it was clean diesel. It's arguably cleaner than the Diesel Rabbit my Dad drove in the 70s. They did break emissions regulations though.

[cab21]

They advertised that it was clean diesel. It's arguably cleaner than the Diesel Rabbit my Dad drove in the 70s. They did break emissions regulations though.

i think they have ratings on the stickers on each car on the lots, so i am thinking about the numbers on those stickers that talk about emission ratings.

 

i think it's called  the Federal fuel economy and environmental label. 

[shirgall]

i think they have ratings on the stickers on each car on the lots, so i am thinking about the numbers on those stickers that talk about emission ratings.

 

i think it's called  the Federal fuel economy and environmental label. 

 

http://www.nextgreencar.com/mpg/fuel-economy-label/? Those vehicles had accurate test cycle numbers. It's just that the car doesn't run in test cycle mode except when it's in a test cycle.

[cab21]

http://www.nextgreen...-economy-label/? Those vehicles had accurate test cycle numbers. It's just that the car doesn't run in test cycle mode except when it's in a test cycle.

 

only passing a test under test mode sounds deceptive.

 

What would this be in other industries, a restaurant only passing health codes when giving a notice of inspection before the inspection, and only passing health code for the inspection?

[shirgall]

only passing a test under test mode sounds deceptive.

 

What would this be in other industries, a restaurant only passing health codes when giving a notice of inspection before the inspection, and only passing health code for the inspection?

 

Even my generation had people who studied only to pass tests and earn a grade and not actually learn the material. I've seen plenty of products that do the bare minimum to meet some sort of certification but not exceed it because quality costs a lot.

 

The companies that care a great deal about what their customers want and are willing to pay for a great deal more responsible and responsive than those that do a lot of work just to "check a box" on some marketing requirements document...

 

They didn't lie, but they were deceptive. I'll grant you that.

Apparently they've had problems with this before...

 

http://www.ibtimes.com/volkswagen-scandal-2015-vw-not-first-automaker-adopt-defeat-devices-override-2110859

[AccuTron]

Several years ago, I researched this topic a bit.  Don't have the link, but found a graph showing numbers of patent applications over time, regarding pollution control by major auto manufacturers.  There were periods of little activity, then spikes after California enacted something.  So this is overall a reaction to California's wishes.  

 

They may be based upon real considerations, but I wonder about specific numbers they come up with.  I'm looking at my '84 gas VW Rabbit's emission results, which passed very well.  I could double two items, and quadruple one item, and still pass.  So I wonder about statements like "may have emitted as much as 40 times the legal limit of pollutants when they were on the road."   Forty times what?

 

It seems like auto technology is already doing it's darndest to be as clean as it can.  Are we seeing the results of unrealistic expectation?  I don't know what AdBlue is yet, will check.

[cab21]

Even my generation had people who studied only to pass tests and earn a grade and not actually learn the material. I've seen plenty of products that do the bare minimum to meet some sort of certification but not exceed it because quality costs a lot.

 

The companies that care a great deal about what their customers want and are willing to pay for a great deal more responsible and responsive than those that do a lot of work just to "check a box" on some marketing requirements document...

 

They didn't lie, but they were deceptive. I'll grant you that.

Apparently they've had problems with this before...

 

http://www.ibtimes.c...verride-2110859

 

Volkswagenwent out of their way to develop products to pass the test, id consider that different from a company that just made bare minimum, without spending money to specifically develop products to pass a test, while not applying on real conditions of the consumer of the product.

 

if other industries have to get errors and omission insurance, it sounds like omission if sellers did not disclose such emissions systems to government testing, and to more importantly, the consumers who asked about the cars emissions.

[wdiaz03]

I'm the owner of an affected vehicle, a 2009 Jetta TDI. I can say these cars have/had potential. I've been able to get high 40's on the highway.

 

http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/jetta/2009/wdiaz03/26395

 

Love the way it drives and the torque. Love that if you hypermile the car rewards you nicely.

 

I have never seen black smoke out of the tailpipe or the smell of fumes. Its sad that the EPA goes after these vehicles while big pickup truck owners bypass their emission system and install 5" tail pipes and then produce a black cloud of smoke when they drive.

 

I like diesel technology but the emission regulations are making it almost not worth the trouble, diesel engines of old were known to last for hundreds of thousands of miles but now days with all the equipment needed to keep emissions down is likely this is no longer possible, I wonder how long will the particulate filter will last on my car? of the high pressure diesel pump? 

 

I'm sitting back waiting to see what will come of this, I will not be lining up at the dealer to get whatever tune they provide to fix this, I'll wait a year or so and see what others report. Shirgall makes excellent points,why not provide a "mode" for this so call "low emissions"? a button with a green leaf or something. or are the parameters so aggressive that they could not run the engines on this mode for long periods of time? can you trust VW and this fix? what is the incentive to ensure that all this vehicles, many out of warranty, remain functioning for many years to come?

I myself would rather go hybrid next time, never seen any reports of prius batteries going bad, and they have been out for years now.

[MagnumPI]

I'm the owner of an affected vehicle, a 2009 Jetta TDI. I can say these cars have/had potential. I've been able to get high 40's on the highway.

 

http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/jetta/2009/wdiaz03/26395

 

Love the way it drives and the torque. Love that if you hypermile the car rewards you nicely.

 

I have never seen black smoke out of the tailpipe or the smell of fumes. Its sad that the EPA goes after these vehicles while big pickup truck owners bypass their emission system and install 5" tail pipes and then produce a black cloud of smoke when they drive.

 

I like diesel technology but the emission regulations are making it almost not worth the trouble, diesel engines of old were known to last for hundreds of thousands of miles but now days with all the equipment needed to keep emissions down is likely this is no longer possible, I wonder how long will the particulate filter will last on my car? of the high pressure diesel pump? 

 

I'm sitting back waiting to see what will come of this, I will not be lining up at the dealer to get whatever tune they provide to fix this, I'll wait a year or so and see what others report. Shirgall makes excellent points,why not provide a "mode" for this so call "low emissions"? a button with a green leaf or something. or are the parameters so aggressive that they could not run the engines on this mode for long periods of time? can you trust VW and this fix? what is the incentive to ensure that all this vehicles, many out of warranty, remain functioning for many years to come?

I myself would rather go hybrid next time, never seen any reports of prius batteries going bad, and they have been out for years now.

 

It's my understanding that the main component affected would be the EGR(exhaust gas recirculation) valve. By running as they do, it plugs less. By running it in EPA mode, it routes more exhaust gas through it and thus, sees more wear. So much so, that you'd be cleaning it quite often.

 

I actually had one of these cars, a 2011 Jetta TDI 6-Speed. It was that or the CRZ. Well, the Honda was more expensive, got worse mileage, a lot smaller and even managed to be slower.

 

Personally, I wouldn't worry much about the high pressure fuel pump. Direct Injection is basically the standard these days, so the construction is pretty similar between diesel and gas. They're not prohibitively expensive. I changed the one in my Mini and it was only $325 or so, and about an hour to install. There exists particulate filter delete downpipes and methods of hollowing them out. And, as I mentioned, software tuning is around $450, which compensates for both EGR and particulate filter deletion, if so desired. In short, all your worries can be remedied cheaply if you want to keep your car. My dad still has one as well, a 2010, and if it comes to it, I'm sure he'll be putting all this really cool stuff on vs a new car. For off-highway use only, though as I'm sure you would do as well...

[shirgall]

Dear god the EGR is the most annoying component of vehicle maintenance ever, even on gasoline vehicles. How many check engine lights must we all endure for a short re-circulation pipe?

 

I have three diesels at the moment, one is from 1971. One is from 1994. The final one is 2015. You can imagine how radically different each of them is.

[wdiaz03]

It's my understanding that the main component affected would be the EGR(exhaust gas recirculation) valve. By running as they do, it plugs less. By running it in EPA mode, it routes more exhaust gas through it and thus, sees more wear. So much so, that you'd be cleaning it quite often.

 

I actually had one of these cars, a 2011 Jetta TDI 6-Speed. It was that or the CRZ. Well, the Honda was more expensive, got worse mileage, a lot smaller and even managed to be slower.

 

Personally, I wouldn't worry much about the high pressure fuel pump. Direct Injection is basically the standard these days, so the construction is pretty similar between diesel and gas. They're not prohibitively expensive. I changed the one in my Mini and it was only $325 or so, and about an hour to install. There exists particulate filter delete downpipes and methods of hollowing them out. And, as I mentioned, software tuning is around $450, which compensates for both EGR and particulate filter deletion, if so desired. In short, all your worries can be remedied cheaply if you want to keep your car. My dad still has one as well, a 2010, and if it comes to it, I'm sure he'll be putting all this really cool stuff on vs a new car. For off-highway use only, though as I'm sure you would do as well...

 

Thanks, For the record, a high pressure pump failure on these cars is catastrophic. the way it is designed it recirculates metal particles to the entire fuel system, requiring deep cleaning of all hoses/pipes, injectors, fuel tank. etc. the cost is several thousand dollars. if not done properly and metal particles make it to the pump again it self destructs again.

 

well documented on TDI specific forums

 

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=299854

 

yikes

[MagnumPI]

Thanks, For the record, a high pressure pump failure on these cars is catastrophic. the way it is designed it recirculates metal particles to the entire fuel system, requiring deep cleaning of all hoses/pipes, injectors, fuel tank. etc. the cost is several thousand dollars. if not done properly and metal particles make it to the pump again it self destructs again.

 

well documented on TDI specific forums

 

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=299854

 

yikes

Ahh... Wasn't aware it had gotten that bad. Solutions to that are being prepped as well. In time, I'm sure there will be more. I know when DI was new, it wasn't long before oil catch cans(despite debatable effectiveness) were adapted to the new engines.

 

http://2microntech.com/

[wdiaz03]

One thing that I have not seen so far is a chart comparison of different vehicles. How does the true emissions numbers of  these VW vehicles compares to similar size engines and V6 and V8 vehicles. 

I fair comparison would be for the amount of emissions to be per mile. since diesel engines are more efficient they require less fuel per mile.

 

I had several people at work jokingly call me a polluter, yet they drive big trucks and cars that are on the 20mpg range, and also have a longer commute.   

[shirgall]

People are missing the point out there in the mainstream. 11,000,000 cars put out 40X the pollution they were supposed to in the past decade... and global warming was *still* less than all the IPCC models predicted...

[rosencrantz]

I fair comparison would be for the amount of emissions to be per mile. since diesel engines are more efficient they require less fuel per mile.

 

This is true, but Diesel engines by default produce way more NO_x. When there is an abundance of O₂ around when a fuel is burned, Nitrogen Oxides are the results. These have to be removed with a catalyst or other measures, rendering the efficiency of the Diesel engine obsolete. Petrol engines on the other hand don't produce this amount of Nitrogen Oxides.

[shirgall]

Six years. Some folks have known about this for six years...

 

http://jalopnik.com/did-one-company-spot-volkswagens-diesel-deception-six-y-1737309474