#Shoutyourabortion

[l33tson]

So, the Australian Sex Party has just come out and started a hashtag about shouting your abortion with then intention I think to remove some of the stigma associated with it. It has spurred up a little bit of unease within me as I don't really know where I stand on abortion as a whole. I've heard the position of Stefan and I really appreciate the viewpoints he puts forward however there are some circumstances where I still struggle to see things in the logical way that he and I am sure, a number of other people on this forum do.

Please help me in my pursuit of self knowledge and maybe give your opinions on the matter and what you think about the stigma of abortion.

Thank you so much.

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Also, apologies if this topic has already been covered or I am in the wrong area of the forum.

[AncapFTW]

So, you're supposed to be proud that you didn't have the self control to take adaquate precautions before having sex, and that you "took care of it" by having another lifeform put to death?

[J. D. Stembal]

Logically, abortion cannot be opposed. Every person has free will and autonomy, which is the basis of the non-aggression principle. Saying that there is a religious or social stigma against it is meaningless.

 

It is interesting that many woman bring a child to term that they would have otherwise aborted, and then you have a situation when a child is brought into the world unwanted and unloved.

My parents were married six years before I was born, and did not divorce until 2012. Why do I still feel like I should never have been born? Should I have been aborted instead? Perhaps they never should have married, and kept the relationship more casual, then my father could have all the mistresses or girlfriends he wanted.

[Agalloch]

Logically, abortion cannot be opposed. Every person has free will and autonomy, which is the basis of the non-aggression principle. Saying that there is a religious or social stigma against it is meaningless.

 

It is interesting that many woman bring a child to term that they would have otherwise aborted, and then you have a situation when a child is brought into the world unwanted and unloved.

 

My parents were married six years before I was born, and did not divorce until 2012. Why do I still feel like I should never have been born? Should I have been aborted instead?

 

Couldn't disagree more, you really can't open with "Logically" and not provide a proof. As far as I know, even UPB hasn't found an answer to the question of abortion morality, which I consider to be the most difficult in morality. As for being brought up unwanted, I'm full of opposing arguments, not least adoption, but I'm compelled to stick to one point as so often people will respond to the meaningless and ignore the primary point.

 

What I consider to be the most important question in response to your position is, do you support abortions at 8 months 3 weeks and a few days?

[jpahmad]

Here's a better question:  What's more tragic, a happy 18 year old graduating from high school walking across the street and getting hit by a car and killed, or sudden infant death syndrome?  I'm just looking for subjective feelings on this one.

[J. D. Stembal]

Couldn't disagree more, you really can't open with "Logically" and not provide a proof. As far as I know, even UPB hasn't found an answer to the question of abortion morality, which I consider to be the most difficult in morality. As for being brought up unwanted, I'm full of opposing arguments, not least adoption, but I'm compelled to stick to one point as so often people will respond to the meaningless and ignore the primary point.

 

What I consider to be the most important question in response to your position is, do you support abortions at 8 months 3 weeks and a few days?

 

The proof is the same as for property rights. The fetus is the property of the female carrying it, thus she can do with it as she pleases. See Briffault's Law for evidence of what this logic implies.

 

I do not consider the question you pose to be important or significant at all. A late term abortion would endanger the health of the mother, and would be avoided at all costs. Why would a women wait so long to rid herself of her unwanted condition? A woman usually suspects and can confirm that she is pregnant in a matter of weeks.

 

The question is a red herring devised to evoke an emotional response because the fetus is only about a month away from becoming a full-fledged human with legal rights if you exclude sexual autonomy.

[l33tson]

J.D: I understand that everyone has autonomy but I thought that the whole basis of the non-aggression principle was that you have autonomy to the point where it doesn't impose on another individuals autonomy. Otherwise you are an aggressor, and as such wouldn't it be fairer to say that the autonomy to not procreate is certainly moral, but the autonomy to decide whether the embryo be aborted is questionable? I'm not saying I have the answers, I'm just giving an opposing view I have heard which I think to me sounds more consistent. I'd love to hear your thoughts though.

Agalloch: I think we might be on the same page. In answer to your question, I think from a logical point of view it's hard to justify where the human life begins so any arbitrary decision is kind of meaningless. Therefore you would have to fall back to conception right? So, at any point from conception it would follow that you are ending a human life so all loss of life is to be treated with equal tragedy. . . But then it comes into question when you consider a medical abortion, or the consequences of rape, abortion of massively disabled individuals... I don't know.... Hence the questions.

jpahmad: I think I'd feel worse for the 18yo but I don't know why and it is not consistent with what I wrote above.

[jpahmad]

jpahmad: I think I'd feel worse for the 18yo but I don't know why and it is not consistent with what I wrote above.

 

I know why.  Because we identify more with the 18 year old.  They have more "personhood" than the baby.  Listen to you intuition.  There is nothing wrong with letting one's intuition guide a sense of morality.  9 times out of 10 our intuition lines up with our faculty of reason. No that sudden infant death syndrome isn't tragic though.  

[l33tson]

I agree that it is likely I identify more with the teenager due to their developed "personhood" but isn't it dangerous to consider personal intuition when it could easily be biased by conditioning (parents, friends, ect..).

I'll give you an example.

2 years ago I was voting far left due to their intentions to assist the poor through wealth distribution which at the time I thought intuitively was a good idea. At face value, it seems reasonable to take from the rich and give to the poor however obviously upon further analysis and self development I've managed to change my view (thanks Stef and the team). The issue is that my intuition was pointing the wrong way at that particular point in time so whats to say it isn't pointing the wrong way now with regard to abortion?

I do hope I'm not comparing apples to pears and all of this follows some comprehensible structure.

[neeeel]

 

Agalloch: I think we might be on the same page. In answer to your question, I think from a logical point of view it's hard to justify where the human life begins so any arbitrary decision is kind of meaningless. Therefore you would have to fall back to conception right? So, at any point from conception it would follow that you are ending a human life so all loss of life is to be treated with equal tragedy. . . But then it comes into question when you consider a medical abortion, or the consequences of rape, abortion of massively disabled individuals... I don't know.... Hence the questions.

 

 

 

I dont understand this. You say that any arbitrary decision is meaningless. And then go on to make an arbitrary decision for conception?

[l33tson]

I dont understand this. You say that any arbitrary decision is meaningless. And then go on to make an arbitrary decision for conception?

You might be right. Let me try and explain.

 

To say that abortion is ok up to x months from birth is obviously pretty arbitrary. It has no basis other than what that society believes is or isn't human life / moral.

 

I'd be of the opinion however that the human life MUST begin when the genome is formed, because all things held equal, the human development would continue, just as we continue to develop to the minute we die. To me this seems the least arbitrary way of thinking. 

 

However, again, I'll state that I'm more in this for self knowledge and just trying to find a reasonable position to take. I'd love to hear a counter argument.

[jpahmad]

I agree that it is likely I identify more with the teenager due to their developed "personhood" but isn't it dangerous to consider personal intuition when it could easily be biased by conditioning (parents, friends, ect..).

 

 

Well, let's approach from the other direction.  Is there any amount of "reasoning" that could make you identify more with the baby?

 

 

 

2 years ago I was voting far left due to their intentions to assist the poor through wealth distribution which at the time I thought intuitively was a good idea. At face value, it seems reasonable to take from the rich and give to the poor however obviously upon further analysis and self development I've managed to change my view (thanks Stef and the team). The issue is that my intuition was pointing the wrong way at that particular point in time so whats to say it isn't pointing the wrong way now with regard to abortion?

 

 

 

 

But think about all the times your intuition was correct.  For me, it's like 90% of the time. 

[neeeel]

You might be right. Let me try and explain.

 

To say that abortion is ok up to x months from birth is obviously pretty arbitrary. It has no basis other than what that society believes is or isn't human life / moral.

 

I'd be of the opinion however that the human life MUST begin when the genome is formed, because all things held equal, the human development would continue, just as we continue to develop to the minute we die. To me this seems the least arbitrary way of thinking. 

 

However, again, I'll state that I'm more in this for self knowledge and just trying to find a reasonable position to take. I'd love to hear a counter argument.

 

I dont have any position either, I am interested to learn more, and look at any logical inconsistencies. It still seems fairly arbitrary to me, You are stating that human life starts from the instant of conception, on no basis other than what you believe is or isnt human life/moral. I suppose I might agree that its the least arbitrary, but I have no good arguments against someone who says, "why not 1 month"

[Will Torbald]

So, the Australian Sex Party has just come out and started a hashtag about shouting your abortion with then intention I think to remove some of the stigma associated with it. It has spurred up a little bit of unease within me as I don't really know where I stand on abortion as a whole. I've heard the position of Stefan and I really appreciate the viewpoints he puts forward however there are some circumstances where I still struggle to see things in the logical way that he and I am sure, a number of other people on this forum do.

 

Please help me in my pursuit of self knowledge and maybe give your opinions on the matter and what you think about the stigma of abortion.

 

Thank you so much.

 

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Edit

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Also, apologies if this topic has already been covered or I am in the wrong area of the forum.

 

As far as I know, I'm pretty sure I'm alive because I wasn't aborted. If I were to be elected president of Jupiter through democratic voting, then rise to the throne, and ban democracy, I think a lot of people would think I am being contradicting, or hypocritical, or biting the hand that feeds me, etc. If I were to support abortion in a proactive way, I'd have to also condemn the method by which I was created, that is voluntary pregnancy without health issues. In that way, I could theoretically allow it in involuntary pregnancies and health concerns issues without contradicting my origin.

[Donnadogsoth]

I think the stigma of fetal abortion should be retained and magnified.  If a creature has human DNA and a functioning brain (~12 weeks gestation) then it is a person and killing people except in self-defense or time of war is called murder.

 

I think the stigma of embryonic abortion should be discarded.  Non-conscious clusters of cells are not people.

[brucethecollie]

I think it's important to acknowledge the harm done to the biological mother and father when there is an abortion. I have always been careful to avoid being in a position to risk getting pregnant without wanting to because I know it would cause major psychological distress to myself and partner.  

[fractional slacker]

This will make for a great screening hashtag for future dating partners.

[Mister Mister]

Logically, abortion cannot be opposed. Every person has free will and autonomy, which is the basis of the non-aggression principle. Saying that there is a religious or social stigma against it is meaningless.

 

It is interesting that many woman bring a child to term that they would have otherwise aborted, and then you have a situation when a child is brought into the world unwanted and unloved.

 

My parents were married six years before I was born, and did not divorce until 2012. Why do I still feel like I should never have been born? Should I have been aborted instead? Perhaps they never should have married, and kept the relationship more casual, then my father could have all the mistresses or girlfriends he wanted.

That's really sad to me, that you wish you had never been born.  Do you think those feelings have some impact on your views on this issue?  The fact remains that you and most children of unhappy families choose to remain alive.

 

Emotions aside, the real question in this issue, is when does a fetus become a person?  Some say conception, some say birth, but most people figure it is somewhere in between.  I agree that I am not sure where I stand on this issue, because I have heard many compelling arguments from all sides.  I am also quite horrified by late-term abortions, the kind where the fetus is mostly formed, has a heartbeat, and the mobility to avoid a needle full of poison being injected into it.  In time I hope that science will shed some light on the answer to this question.  As far as the politics and law go, I think the libertarian position is pretty obvious - laws outlawing abortion are a terrible idea, and will not fix the problem anymore than the prohibition of alcohol, drugs, gambling, prostitution, guns, etc., have done anything positive.  At the same time, public money should never be spent on abortions, or given to any organization that provides abortions.  Only when both sides put the guns down, can we make any headway on this issue.

 

Having written this, and accused J.D. of some emotional bis, I think it's fair to admit that I myself am friendly with some women who have had early term abortions, and once, after stupid unprotected drunken sex, a girl I slept with used Plan B contraceptive.

[kathryn]

I support people talking honestly and frankly about all topics, and I think if women wish to discuss their choice after they've had an abortion they should be able to in an open way, but this hashtag makes me absolutely sick. Just because people shouldn't be attacked or lynched for their choice to do something immoral, they shouldn't be proud of it either. There is a reason it is taboo and stigmatized. Even when there are good reasons for an abortion, like when rape or incest have occurred, or discovering the fetus has a chromosomal disorder or something, the situation is never good. 

 

The morning after pill is readily available now, which prevents implantation. (I don't believe that personhood can begin before implantation and conception have actually occurred.) If someone is unwantedly pregnant, that is not something that has happened to them in the heat of the moment. It is a situation that they have consciously and recklessly put themselves in. 

 

Attempts to normalize abortion is yet another example of feminists trying to give women a free pass to make terrible decisions. The legality of it is less important to me because the government can go fly a kite, but people need to take personal responsibility for their actions and deal with the consequences of a rightly stigmatized issue. 

 

I thought this was a good video on the morality of abortion: 

 

[Donnadogsoth]

That's really sad to me, that you wish you had never been born.  Do you think those feelings have some impact on your views on this issue?  The fact remains that you and most children of unhappy families choose to remain alive.

 

Emotions aside, the real question in this issue, is when does a fetus become a person?  Some say conception, some say birth, but most people figure it is somewhere in between.  I agree that I am not sure where I stand on this issue, because I have heard many compelling arguments from all sides.  I am also quite horrified by late-term abortions, the kind where the fetus is mostly formed, has a heartbeat, and the mobility to avoid a needle full of poison being injected into it.  In time I hope that science will shed some light on the answer to this question.  As far as the politics and law go, I think the libertarian position is pretty obvious - laws outlawing abortion are a terrible idea, and will not fix the problem anymore than the prohibition of alcohol, drugs, gambling, prostitution, guns, etc., have done anything positive.  At the same time, public money should never be spent on abortions, or given to any organization that provides abortions.  Only when both sides put the guns down, can we make any headway on this issue.

 

Having written this, and accused J.D. of some emotional bis, I think it's fair to admit that I myself am friendly with some women who have had early term abortions, and once, after stupid unprotected drunken sex, a girl I slept with used Plan B contraceptive.

 

What's the difference between a law outlawing murdering adults and a law outlawing alcohol, drugs, gambling, prostitution, or guns?  People are going to murder anyway, so why try to stop them?

 

I realise this is an ancap board and thus "law" is immaterial, there are only the actions and desires of private property owners, but I still think it's an odd thing to apparently say, that laws outlawing X never work.  Why have laws at all?  Why talk about laws at all?

[Mister Mister]

What's the difference between a law outlawing murdering adults and a law outlawing alcohol, drugs, gambling, prostitution, or guns?  People are going to murder anyway, so why try to stop them?

 

I realise this is an ancap board and thus "law" is immaterial, there are only the actions and desires of private property owners, but I still think it's an odd thing to apparently say, that laws outlawing X never work.  Why have laws at all?  Why talk about laws at all?

Yes, point taken, what I'm saying is that while there is controversy over what is a medical procedure, and what is murder, there ought to be a truce between both sides, which would cut public funding from these organizations.

[AccuTron]

You might be right. Let me try and explain.

 

To say that abortion is ok up to x months from birth is obviously pretty arbitrary. It has no basis other than what that society believes is or isn't human life / moral.

 

I'd be of the opinion however that the human life MUST begin when the genome is formed, because all things held equal, the human development would continue, just as we continue to develop to the minute we die. To me this seems the least arbitrary way of thinking. 

 

However, again, I'll state that I'm more in this for self knowledge and just trying to find a reasonable position to take. I'd love to hear a counter argument.

I had a nasty day in an ICU several years ago, and was basically snuffing it right under the blind eyes of staff.  It had the effect of killing off a bunch of my SELF by massively disconnecting synapses, leaving the rest of me intact, sort of, when viewed from the outside (when HAL9000 was snuffed, the space ship still looked okay from the outside).

 

So I have a very strong opinion here.  When did that electrical self originate?  (I'm simplifying here, but open to more biological discussion if someone wants to p.m. me, or pursue here.)  I can say with personal certainty that >>I<< was dissolving because my synapse maintenance process was failing.  (It was terrifying.)

 

The flip side is, when did that process first kick in, in utero, for that might be interpreted as the actual introduction of the SELF, the person.  Probably pretty young in utero, whenever the brain is developed enough to send itself certain types signals back and forth.  Prior to that, is the fetal brain just a lump of neurons?  From this, I feel we're not human from conception, but some weeks later.  At conception, we have extensive blueprints, but not the product.  Not that this helps anything, but points to me where a logical argument about human life beginnings could start.

 

 

PS.  I know a woman who had an abortion long ago.  She mentioned it once is a sort of wistful resignation way, clearly not completely at peace with it, somewhere deep inside.

[Ray H.]

An individual human is one that possesses unique genetic material, as well as unique experience. Each individual has property rights and is subject to the non-aggression principle, regardless of stage of development, since that individual will be able to reciprocate as an adult. No individual is wholly the property of another in any context. No adult is the property of another adult. No child is the property of its parents. No fetus is the property of the woman carrying it. Each is its own. And, in fact, the further the individual is from adulthood, the more responsibility those who gave it existence have in protecting it and ensuring its health and wellbeing to adulthood. A fetus is a human being with no control over its circumstances and no choice over who's womb it happens to be in. This does not make it property, nor does it make it a parasite. A parasite would have had some choice as to who's plumbing it crawled into. A fetus was forced into existence and is owed protection so that it can fulfill its potential.

 

Abortion should be a last resort for truly tragic circumstances. Carrying the baby to term and putting it up for adoption should be the preferred option as long as there are no health considerations. It's too bad if that's inconvenient to the mother. It's too bad if she has to change her life for nine months. It's too bad if the man who got her pregnant is uncertain or missing or a douchebag. Too bad! Have the baby, give it up, and never do that stupid shit again. I've seen this happen. I've seen a community rally around a pregnant teen who carried a baby to term and then gave it up for adoption. Her life was not "destroyed" by having that baby. And more importantly, that baby's life was not truly destroyed.

[l33tson]

I had a nasty day in an ICU several years ago, and was basically snuffing it right under the blind eyes of staff.  It had the effect of killing off a bunch of my SELF by massively disconnecting synapses, leaving the rest of me intact, sort of, when viewed from the outside (when HAL9000 was snuffed, the space ship still looked okay from the outside).

 

So I have a very strong opinion here.  When did that electrical self originate?  (I'm simplifying here, but open to more biological discussion if someone wants to p.m. me, or pursue here.)  I can say with personal certainty that >>I<< was dissolving because my synapse maintenance process was failing.  (It was terrifying.)

 

The flip side is, when did that process first kick in, in utero, for that might be interpreted as the actual introduction of the SELF, the person.  Probably pretty young in utero, whenever the brain is developed enough to send itself certain types signals back and forth.  Prior to that, is the fetal brain just a lump of neurons?  From this, I feel we're not human from conception, but some weeks later.  At conception, we have extensive blueprints, but not the product.  Not that this helps anything, but points to me where a logical argument about human life beginnings could start.

 

 

PS.  I know a woman who had an abortion long ago.  She mentioned it once is a sort of wistful resignation way, clearly not completely at peace with it, somewhere deep inside.

 

Hi Accutron,

 

I have a pretty strong background in physiology (am finishing my degree in a few weeks) and starting medicine next year so maybe I can give a little more insight on that perspective. The electrical signalling you are referring to is that between nerve cells and their target cells right? That's the inference I get from synapse.

 

It's true that you won't have a fully developed neural system (or any development at all actually) at conception, however the basic premise of cell signalling remains, largely, K+ out, Na+ in. This happens on a cellular level, even without the presence of specialized nerve cells. This hyper polarization is required for most (any) cell to function and as such the brain, at any stage of development cannot be just a lump of cells. It is not as though suddenly it turns on and the ability to signal jumps into action. It is a slow process of neural development which eventually leads to what you see as a neural impulse today.

[J. D. Stembal]

That's really sad to me, that you wish you had never been born.  Do you think those feelings have some impact on your views on this issue?  The fact remains that you and most children of unhappy families choose to remain alive.

 

Emotions aside, the real question in this issue, is when does a fetus become a person?  Some say conception, some say birth, but most people figure it is somewhere in between.  I agree that I am not sure where I stand on this issue, because I have heard many compelling arguments from all sides.  I am also quite horrified by late-term abortions, the kind where the fetus is mostly formed, has a heartbeat, and the mobility to avoid a needle full of poison being injected into it.  In time I hope that science will shed some light on the answer to this question.  As far as the politics and law go, I think the libertarian position is pretty obvious - laws outlawing abortion are a terrible idea, and will not fix the problem anymore than the prohibition of alcohol, drugs, gambling, prostitution, guns, etc., have done anything positive.  At the same time, public money should never be spent on abortions, or given to any organization that provides abortions.  Only when both sides put the guns down, can we make any headway on this issue.

 

Having written this, and accused J.D. of some emotional bis, I think it's fair to admit that I myself am friendly with some women who have had early term abortions, and once, after stupid unprotected drunken sex, a girl I slept with used Plan B contraceptive.

 

The fetus becomes a person when it can think for itself.

 

"I think therefore I am." - Rene Descartes

 

There are many reasons why I wish that I was never born, and most of them have to do with how little I was loved as a child. I was not only unloved, but for all practical purposes, I was an unwanted child.

 

My parents' reaction to deFOO is all the proof that I need to know that they never should have had me.

[Mister Mister]

The fetus becomes a person when it can think for itself.

 

"I think therefore I am." - Rene Descartes

 

There are many reasons why I wish that I was never born, and most of them have to do with how little I was loved as a child. I was not only unloved, but for all practical purposes, I was an unwanted child.

 

My parents' reaction to deFOO is all the proof that I need to know that they never should have had me.

 

But by that logic, wouldn't it be okay to kill people who are comatose or have dementia, because they are inconvenient?  What about adoption?

 

Jeez, that's really tragic J.D., I'm so sorry for whatever happened that would make you say that.  But even if your parents are bad people, can't you have your own purpose, live life for yourself and seek love and happiness?  I don't entirely understand how you've come to this conclusion.

[Anuojat]

I think we can agree that state meddling in this affair (along with the welfare) has caused the most problems over this issue.

 

Because if it was left up for the free market abortion would become much more delegated to issues of life threatenign circumstances.

And this massive tide of abortation we have today would have a financial cost along with the social ostracism.

 

Not neccerily JUST the issue about human/fetus dichotomy but why would anyone associate with a woman who gets herself banged here and there and when careful consideration, time and birth control condoms ectectect. were ALL available?

 

Being irresponceable or lazy or dumb about sex would quickly have a very steep cost.

[AncapFTW]

The fetus becomes a person when it can think for itself.

 

"I think therefore I am." - Rene Descartes

 

There are many reasons why I wish that I was never born, and most of them have to do with how little I was loved as a child. I was not only unloved, but for all practical purposes, I was an unwanted child.

 

My parents' reaction to deFOO is all the proof that I need to know that they never should have had me.

Can an infant think for itself?  How about a person in a cult?  How about any number of people who have given into the indoctrination of others?

In fact, I would think it would be impossible to find someone who thinks for themselves 100% because we all base our perceptions on past experiences, which generally include things which we accept without question.  I accept that I am living in a real world and not a VR because I lack evidence that what I'm experiencing is a VR.  Would that mean that I am not a real person if indead we were living in a VR?

 

What amount of thought is required before you concider them a person?  Would it be enough thought when the brain begins to form around 8 weeks, or would it require a fully funtional brain at around 25 weeks?

http://brainblogger.com/2009/05/10/medical-controversy-when-does-life-begin/

[BenShade]

At the very least it seems like abortion is a bad idea. (http://lab.rockefeller.edu/cohenje/PDFs/022LegalAbortionsSocialBiol1971.pdf) This research paper is a little older, but I can't imagine this could be done today. It finds a woman with an IQ over 136 is 39x more likely to recieve an abortion as someone with an IQ 78 or below. Perhaps the differance is just financial access to abortion as a choice, but either way it seems like it is a bad choice for humanity. This report also shows that IQ is positively correlated with fertility. So given no one aborted our average IQ should go up.

[violet]

I think the only rational position to take regarding a fetus is that it is a person, just as much as any born baby. Before conception, there is no person - after, there is a unique set of human DNA that will develop into a fully formed human given time and resources. To claim a fetus is clump of cells up until a certain number of weeks and then it transforms into a person requires an arbitrary boundary.

 

So I can only rationally conclude that a fetus is a person. However, I have trouble in defining whether abortion is murder. A baby is a special case of human that you don't see in any other stage of life. It requires physical resources from its mother to develop - the biology of it means that the baby simply takes the resources whether the mother wants to give them or not.

 

So even if the baby is a person, it's a parasite. Imagine a hypothetical situation where a 5-year-old child suddenly had to reattach to its mother for nine months in order to live (maybe using some sort of medical equipment). If she refuses this attachment, is she murdering her child? I might call it shameful and neglectful, but not murder.

 

In a real-life situation, you might have a newborn baby. It can no longer take nutrition from its mother as required. Instead, it needs her to feed it. If she refuses to feed it, is it murder? Without intervention, such a situation would only lead to death of the child. Such a mother would be condemned for neglecting a helpless infant, but abortion is largely accepted. So perhaps abortion is neglect rather than murder?

[Susana]

Based on talking to people and observing abortion hurts the woman and man emotionally and physically in the following ways. Not sure the exact statistics but after an abortion the relationship usually ends, both parties report to me a feeling of "what is the point" "the future was ended" 

 

Your body has side effects, for example the "abortion pill" taken in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy has the woman bleeding for weeks or longer and other side effects are nausea and cramping, irregular cycles etc.

 

And it also highlights either being in a shitty relationship with no future and/or having no community and family support and thinking you have to sacrifice the idea of having kids for "success and prosperity"