How do you know how much to push kids?

[Mothra]

I recently finished reading Alice Miller's The Drama of the Gifted Child. I saw a lot of myself in what she describes as the grandiose person. 

 

"The person who is "grandiose" is admired everywhere and needs this admiration; indeed he cannot live without it. He must excel brilliantly in everything he undertakes, which he is surely capable of doing (otherwise he just does not attempt it). He, too, admires himself, for his qualities - his beauty, cleverness, talents - and for his success and achievements. Beware if one of these fails him, for then the catastrophe of a severe depression is imminent." 

 

She describes a field study where the family backgrounds of depressives were studied.

 

"All the patients came from families who were socially isolated and felt themselves to be too little respected in their neighborhood. They therefore made special efforts to increase their prestige with their neighbors through conformity and outstanding achievements. The child who later became ill had been assigned a special role in this effort. He was supposed to guarantee the family honor, and was loved only in proportion to the degree to which he was able to fulfill the demands of this family ideal by means of his special abilities, talents, his beauty, etc."

 

This sounds just like my family and explains a lot. Both of my parents grew up poor, my dad especially. They both worked blue collar jobs and we moved to a college town when I was 4. Most of my friends' parents were professors. I was put in 10 million activities and when it was discovered I had musical talent they went balls to the wall on that. I was supposed to have turned out to become a famous musician, but instead I got depressed and addicted. During family therapy once, my dad even said that he had wanted to see my name in lights.

 

When I think about this now, I have conflicting emotions. Part of me gets really angry that I had to be the source of their esteem and wishes I could have just been left alone to do what the other kids were doing. I feel cheated out of my childhood. Another part of me is grateful for being taught the value of practice and perseverance, and I love that I have music as an outlet for expressing my emotions.

 

I think about this with my own daughter, who doesn't seem to have a lot of self discipline. Perhaps I have been too lax with her because I am afraid of doing to her what my parents did to me. Is there a correct level of "push" to give a child? How do you know when you're pushing too hard? Or not enough? And how can you be sure about your motives, i.e. whether or not you are encouraging them in order to live vicariously through them and their achievements? I just want her to be happy and functional. But I worry that she will not succeed in this world without more drive.

[brucethecollie]

I don't push my kids.  I model to them how I push myself.  They are aware of me doing things I don't necessarily want to do (like house cleaning) and they see me work at things that aren't easy for me (i'm a public speaker) and things that take discipline (writing).  I encourage them and talk with them but I don't push.  I feel fairly confident that when they really want to push themselves at something, they will.  They already do, actually.  The things they don't push themselves at are just not that valuable for them right now.  I fear pushing them isn't healthy or respectful.  I have been reading up on motivational interviewing as a way to help connect people with their motivation and I find it works very well for children, too.  Persuasion and knowledge do not trigger change the way people think it does.  A strong connection to and an understanding of one's values is what triggers change and behavior.  For example, I didn't get good at soccer back in the day because I had discipline for all the practice involved.  I got good because I loved it so much and wanted to play as much as possible-keeping me looking very disciplined indeed.  I think guiding children and talking with them about what excites them and sparks their curiosity is helpful as well as helping them see what their natural inclinations and talents are.  Then supporting them with all the logistical and practical aspects of what they love.  My parents let my artist sister color and draw on the walls when she was little because they could see she was obsessed.  She just completed her master's and got a great job doing what she loves and I see how all the art supplies and classes and encouragement helped keep her going where she wanted to go.  I honestly don't know if I'm parenting correctly in this regard...and my kids are still pretty young so I don't have a lot of feedback.  So far though, they are happy and healthy and enjoy learning and I just don't want that screwed up as it seems a good set of precursors for learning in the future.  

[Mothra]

I don't push my kids.  I model to them how I push myself.  They are aware of me doing things I don't necessarily want to do (like house cleaning) and they see me work at things that aren't easy for me (i'm a public speaker) and things that take discipline (writing).  I encourage them and talk with them but I don't push.  I feel fairly confident that when they really want to push themselves at something, they will.  They already do, actually.  The things they don't push themselves at are just not that valuable for them right now.  I fear pushing them isn't healthy or respectful.  I have been reading up on motivational interviewing as a way to help connect people with their motivation and I find it works very well for children, too.  Persuasion and knowledge do not trigger change the way people think it does.  A strong connection to and an understanding of one's values is what triggers change and behavior.  For example, I didn't get good at soccer back in the day because I had discipline for all the practice involved.  I got good because I loved it so much and wanted to play as much as possible-keeping me looking very disciplined indeed.  I think guiding children and talking with them about what excites them and sparks their curiosity is helpful as well as helping them see what their natural inclinations and talents are.  Then supporting them with all the logistical and practical aspects of what they love.  My parents let my artist sister color and draw on the walls when she was little because they could see she was obsessed.  She just completed her master's and got a great job doing what she loves and I see how all the art supplies and classes and encouragement helped keep her going where she wanted to go.  I honestly don't know if I'm parenting correctly in this regard...and my kids are still pretty young so I don't have a lot of feedback.  So far though, they are happy and healthy and enjoy learning and I just don't want that screwed up as it seems a good set of precursors for learning in the future.  

 

I like your approach. That's kind of what I've been doing lately as well, I'm just not really seeing much results. Or maybe 11 is too young to expect much in the way of results. My daughter is obsessed with animals. Dogs, cats, especially horses. I let her take care of all the animal chores, She also helps my mom take care of her chickens and is doing FFA (Future Farmers of America) after school, where they raise chickens and have an aquaponics farm and all kinds of neat stuff. It's just that she comes home from school and her natural inclination is to spend the entire evening playing Animal Jam - this online video game. I don't think that's particularly healthy but maybe that is just her way of decompressing after school. She is a good reader, but doesn't seem to like reading for pleasure. Maybe that's okay... but it makes me sad. Maybe that's just my issue. I guess you're saying just let her be and hope she'll eventually be inclined to read/research more about what interests her when the time comes. 

[brucethecollie]

Some people never enjoy reading for the sake of reading.  I read all the time but rarely is it fiction because I don't read for pleasure but instead for practical matters.  And when I don't see the value in gathering any particular information, I just don't read all that much.  It varies from day to day.  Some kids do have a need to decompress after school based on aspects of school that are challenging such as the routine of it, the general physical confinement, the style of learning that has a lot to do with reading material and talking about it (leaving those who like to move about or be more hands on a bit agitated by the end of the day).

 

At 11, I sure remember watching a lot of tv after school.  I remember seeing it as a distraction and as a tool for procrastination from homework I hated.  There are so many reasons besides mine for doing a lot of one thing that we may regard as unhealthy, such as tv or video games.  Have you asked her why she plays so much and if she is enjoying herself?  In other words, what purpose is the playing serving?  If she isn't enjoying herself all that much then why is that?  And what might she prefer to be doing, instead?  And why is she not doing that?  Questions to allow her to be aware of her own feelings and actions can be great guidance.

 

I read a great book by Sir Ken Robinson called The Element.  I highly recommend it to any parent or non parent out there.  It talks a lot about how schools today kill creativity in children and gives ideas for discovering and focusing where our skill and desire converge to become our element.  

[Matthew Ed Moran]

Hi, Mothra. I think you ask a great question and I hope other parents chime in for the benefit of you and your daughter. I'm also interested in what brucethecollie has to say since your reply to her. That said, I did want to share my curiosities and I hope they are some use to you.

 

"I think about this with my own daughter, who doesn't seem to have a lot of self discipline."

 

You said she goes to school (full-time?), is involved with an after-school activity, helps your mom with chickens, and does chores. Are you saying you think your daughter should be doing more than this, or doing different things, or something else?

 

"I just want her to be happy and functional. But I worry that she will not succeed in this world without more drive."

 

Do you think your daughter is happy and functional now? If not, why not? If she is, what are you worrying about? I do not understand the "drive" comment if she attends school full-time and does a few more things on the side. The comment does strike me as a bit euphemistic and I wonder if you can be more specific about your concern.

 

"Maybe that's okay... but it [daughter not reading for pleasure] makes me sad."

 

Why does it make you sad?

 

"It's just that she comes home from school and her natural inclination is to spend the entire evening playing Animal Jam - this online video game."

 

How does that make you feel? How much quality interaction time do you have with her if she is in school all day and then plays video games all evening? Is your main concern that your daughter is playing video games when she comes home rather than reading, or are you concerned about more than this?

 

I think it is good you have asked this question and I hope others with more experience than I can chime in. I remember a call with Stef on this exact topic but I cannot remember the name - if I find it I will link you.

[dsayers]

I like your approach. That's kind of what I've been doing lately as well, I'm just not really seeing much results. Or maybe 11 is too young to expect much in the way of results. 

 

Actually, 11 is too old. The formative years of personality are between 3-5. This would've been the time to talk with her about everything and model win-win negotiation and rational thought.

 

As for how hard to push, I think that's a "bad question." When somebody chooses to bring a new life into the world, they are making a positive obligation to that person to protect and nurture that person until such a time as they're able to do so for themselves. Pushing the child to do something the parent wants is a failure on the part of the parent. It contradicts their voluntary obligation to the child by not only not negotiating with the child, but modeling for them that those who are larger and/or have more power are justified by default.

[Mothra]

Hi, Mothra. I think you ask a great question and I hope other parents chime in for the benefit of you and your daughter. I'm also interested in what brucethecollie has to say since your reply to her. That said, I did want to share my curiosities and I hope they are some use to you.

 

"I think about this with my own daughter, who doesn't seem to have a lot of self discipline."

 

You said she goes to school (full-time?), is involved with an after-school activity, helps your mom with chickens, and does chores. Are you saying you think your daughter should be doing more than this, or doing different things, or something else?

 

"I just want her to be happy and functional. But I worry that she will not succeed in this world without more drive."

 

Do you think your daughter is happy and functional now? If not, why not? If she is, what are you worrying about? I do not understand the "drive" comment if she attends school full-time and does a few more things on the side. The comment does strike me as a bit euphemistic and I wonder if you can be more specific about your concern.

 

"Maybe that's okay... but it [daughter not reading for pleasure] makes me sad."

 

Why does it make you sad?

 

"It's just that she comes home from school and her natural inclination is to spend the entire evening playing Animal Jam - this online video game."

 

How does that make you feel? How much quality interaction time do you have with her if she is in school all day and then plays video games all evening? Is your main concern that your daughter is playing video games when she comes home rather than reading, or are you concerned about more than this?

 

I think it is good you have asked this question and I hope others with more experience than I can chime in. I remember a call with Stef on this exact topic but I cannot remember the name - if I find it I will link you.

 

You're right. She does do a lot. Thanks for pointing that out. I think what I perceive as "normal" is probably warped.

My daughter seems pretty happy and functional now. I guess what I am worried about is if she is going to be functional in the future, when life will require more of her in the way of organizing, postponing gratification, etc

 

I think her not enjoying reading makes me sad because it is something I cannot relate to her about. I know she enjoys learning, but just through different mechanisms. She'd rather watch a nature documentary or take a field trip to a farm or something. I guess I just need to accept that we can still be connected even if we operate differently.

 

Definitely more concerned about just quality interaction than just video games vs reading. She will initiate other things, such as wanting to go for a walk or play cards, and we eat dinner together every night.

 

 

Actually, 11 is too old. The formative years of personality are between 3-5. This would've been the time to talk with her about everything and model win-win negotiation and rational thought.

 

As for how hard to push, I think that's a "bad question." When somebody chooses to bring a new life into the world, they are making a positive obligation to that person to protect and nurture that person until such a time as they're able to do so for themselves. Pushing the child to do something the parent wants is a failure on the part of the parent. It contradicts their voluntary obligation to the child by not only not negotiating with the child, but modeling for them that those who are larger and/or have more power are justified by default.

 

Right, I hear you. Perhaps "push" isn't the right word. Maybe how to you guide your child would be a better question. I've been thinking on this today and I think following their lead sounds like a pretty good philosophy. I will admit that it's hard though, I think I along with many other people have been conditioned to think that a child couldn't possibly know what's best for herself. I like the idea of letting her pick her activities, and deciding how dedicated she wants to be in them. I guess I just needed some reassurance that I'm mostly going in the right direction. It just runs counter to everything I've been taught and sometimes I start questioning myself. Thanks for the feedback!