If a parent doesn't know of sexual abuse are they responsible for that?

[CuriousGeorge]

I am looking for a moral, ethical answer to a question that is bothering me deeply.  I was molested from the time I was 6 to 11 by a boy that was 6 years older than me.  There was not intercourse, but everything else,

and I realize that I was a utility for him to meet sexual wants.  This realization happened later when I went to coucilling in my 30’s.

He was a friend of my older brother and had access to do this over 5 years.  I recently asked my Mom how this could take place for so long ? What she was doing while it happened and why I was not protected better?

She said to me that she could not apologize for something that she did not know about.  I have been giving my parents one day a week of my help for 15 years as they do not drive and are not healthy.  I also took care of my mother-in-law (a miserable one) who has Alzheimer's for two years till it made me feel like giving up on life. The stress was too much as she was incontinent for a half a year of that care.  I realized that taking her in took away my time from my family and could kick myself.   When I said this to my mom, she accused me of having PMS.

 

I feel I have been a really good daughter in every way.  I feel really let down by my Mom’s answers.  Is this fair of me?  I also wonder if I have boundary issues.  I think I struggle with being a pleaser .  I have a 15 year old daughter and was very careful to not allow anyone access to her.  I have been very watchful and diligent to help my children in every way I could.  I have stayed home, made good meals, lots of love, fun and open communication, emotional support and help with schooling.  They are doing great.  Since I felt bad about myself as a result of feelings of guilt and shame about the abuse I think I have been super diligent with those around me. 

 

My husband has a great job and I have been able to stay home and care for kids and parents because of him.  I always second guess my staying at home and wonder if I am lazy.  We have no mortgage, or debt and I do all the chores I can so that my husband can concentrate on work and have RNR time after work.

He really seems to love me and is very supportive of me back. We enjoy our lives together.

I feel like I have to justify myself all the time. I do not feel comfortable in my own skin.

 

My mother spanked my brother with a wooden spoon when we were 4 and 6 because he looked at my privates. I was scared of her and did not tell her till my 30’s about the abuse.  I finally told when my niece was in a situation where she could have been abused by the person that abused me. I had a panic attack and realized I had to say something to prevent a possible abuse. I did go to councilling and have done a bunch of self searching to figure out the effects on me. I am trying to know myself.

 

She also let me date a guy that was 28 when I was 18.  I think I would chase a guy with a baseball bat that was that much older than my daughter.  I asked her why she did not tell him to go away and she said

“Well you learned from dating him?”  I did, I learned what I did not want.

 

Any advice about my mom’s responsibility to me to keep me from getting molested? Is she right that since

she did not know, it is not her fault and that she was a victim like me?

 

I have been listening to Stefan’s parenting podcasts and now have serious questions.  

 

Thanks

 

[Kurtis]

I'm so sorry for all that you suffered

Thank you for sharing these details, that takes a lot of courage.

 

To answer your question:

 

If your mom knew about the sexual abuse at the time and now claims to not know anything about it then she is in denial.  People have incredible abilities to create massive fantasies to protect themselves from the reality of their actions.  If this goes on for decades, they can lose the distinction between fantasy and reality.

 

If your mom truly did not know about the sexual abuse then she was horribly absent and neglectful.  

 

Both these options mean your mother was very abusive and harmful to you.  She is responsible.

 

I'm sure your mother also suffered horrible trauma as a child, but that is no excuse once she became an adult and had children of her own.  We need to take responsibility for ourselves otherwise we'd never break these cycles of violence and abuse.

 

You said you did some therapy... are you still in therapy now?

 

This same mother is living in your house with your children?

[Will Torbald]

 

I am looking for a moral, ethical answer to a question that is bothering me deeply.  I was molested from the time I was 6 to 11 by a boy that was 6 years older than me.  There was not intercourse, but everything else,

and I realize that I was a utility for him to meet sexual wants.  This realization happened later when I went to coucilling in my 30’s.

He was a friend of my older brother and had access to do this over 5 years.  I recently asked my Mom how this could take place for so long ? What she was doing while it happened and why I was not protected better?

She said to me that she could not apologize for something that she did not know about.  I have been giving my parents one day a week of my help for 15 years as they do not drive and are not healthy.  I also took care of my mother-in-law (a miserable one) who has Alzheimer's for two years till it made me feel like giving up on life. The stress was too much as she was incontinent for a half a year of that care.  I realized that taking her in took away my time from my family and could kick myself.   When I said this to my mom, she accused me of having PMS.

 

I feel I have been a really good daughter in every way.  I feel really let down by my Mom’s answers.  Is this fair of me?  I also wonder if I have boundary issues.  I think I struggle with being a pleaser .  I have a 15 year old daughter and was very careful to not allow anyone access to her.  I have been very watchful and diligent to help my children in every way I could.  I have stayed home, made good meals, lots of love, fun and open communication, emotional support and help with schooling.  They are doing great.  Since I felt bad about myself as a result of feelings of guilt and shame about the abuse I think I have been super diligent with those around me. 

 

My husband has a great job and I have been able to stay home and care for kids and parents because of him.  I always second guess my staying at home and wonder if I am lazy.  We have no mortgage, or debt and I do all the chores I can so that my husband can concentrate on work and have RNR time after work.

He really seems to love me and is very supportive of me back. We enjoy our lives together.

I feel like I have to justify myself all the time. I do not feel comfortable in my own skin.

 

My mother spanked my brother with a wooden spoon when we were 4 and 6 because he looked at my privates. I was scared of her and did not tell her till my 30’s about the abuse.  I finally told when my niece was in a situation where she could have been abused by the person that abused me. I had a panic attack and realized I had to say something to prevent a possible abuse. I did go to councilling and have done a bunch of self searching to figure out the effects on me. I am trying to know myself.

 

She also let me date a guy that was 28 when I was 18.  I think I would chase a guy with a baseball bat that was that much older than my daughter.  I asked her why she did not tell him to go away and she said

“Well you learned from dating him?”  I did, I learned what I did not want.

 

Any advice about my mom’s responsibility to me to keep me from getting molested? Is she right that since

she did not know, it is not her fault and that she was a victim like me?

 

I have been listening to Stefan’s parenting podcasts and now have serious questions.  

 

Thanks

 

 

When you ask for moral guidance it is imporant to differentiate between immoral acts and aesthetically negative acts. If you want to define the lack of knowledge of your mother as immoral, you would also have to define yourself as immoral as long as you are not surveying your daughter 24/7 every second, everywhere, and with every person. Every time there is something you don't know about her, you would be being immoral as well since you defined immorality as "ignorance of what is going on with my child". If ignorance were immoral, you could convict people of anything. Now, it is definitely aesthetically negative to not know what was happening, but to define the limits of its neglect you have to recognize that people make assumptions every time we choose to not supervize people. Everyone has had things that happened to them as children that were not known by their parents (regardless if they were abusive or just secrets between kids). 

 

Another danger is becoming paranoid with your own children of all the things you don't know, or can't know, or don't even begin to suspect you couldn't know. Your mother made assumptions on top of the knowledge she had of the people who interacted with you. Assumed they weren't dangerous to you and didn't investigate further. Could she tell? Was it obvious? Where they just regular kids no different from other kids? Why suspect of that particular friend of your brother, and not another friend? Why not of another person? It goes on and on.

 

If she were to apologize for not suspecting, or knowing, or screening that boy - she would have had to screen every man, teenager, boy, and human being in your vicinity for specfic tells of abusive behavior - and then not screen that particular boy. Then she could say "I checked every creature for abusive behavior except for that boy who I just ignored for I don't know, so I am sorry for that". What was she doing while it happened? She was probably doing what her own family did with her, and all the mothers she know did, to not worry about every single thing their kids do and assume that other children are not harmful to them. After all, the caricature of the pedophile rapist with the trenchcoat is pretty obvious to spot, but just another kid who is a friend of another of her children? How much stress is she willing to put herself by raising the stakes to a point when you can't tell friend from foe?

 

In the end, if you are willing to condemn her level of tolerance and laissez-faire parenting, you would also have to condemn yourself for every single thing that every happened to any of your children, abuse/accidents/tricks/bullying/diseases/ that you could know, could not have known, and couldn't even know you even had to worry about.

 

She could have apologized to make you feel better. You can hold her responsible for not wanting to make you feel better. That probably stings. But can you hold her responsible for not being ever present?

[Kurtis]

 

In the end, if you are willing to condemn her level of tolerance and laissez-faire parenting, you would also have to condemn yourself for every single thing that every happened to any of your children, abuse/accidents/tricks/bullying/diseases/ that you could know, could not have known, and couldn't even know you even had to worry about.

 

 

Just to be clear, she is not talking about "every single thing that ever happened" or accidents/tricks etc.

 

She is talking about being sexually molested for 5 years.  She is talking about a mother who beat her, a mother who she is scared of, a mother who manipulates her.  

[Will Torbald]

Just to be clear, she is not talking about "every single thing that ever happened" or accidents/tricks etc.

 

She is talking about being sexually molested for 5 years.  She is talking about a mother who beat her, a mother who she is scared of, a mother who manipulates her.  

 

I only read that her mother had spanked her brother. This does cause fear of her, but she didn't not beat her directly in the story. All those things you list are very nasty, I agree. But the crime in context is not what she did not know, is the fact that she did not know. That is what I am contending. That what you are really trying to peg as immoral is ignorance itself.

[Kurtis]

I only read that her mother had spanked her brother. This does cause fear of her, but she didn't not beat her directly in the story. All those things you list are very nasty, I agree. But the crime in context is not what she did not know, is the fact that she did not know. That is what I am contending. That what you are really trying to peg as immoral is ignorance itself.

 

 

Ahh you are correct, thought I read that she had hit both her and her brother.

 

But, is there not some level of ignorance which then becomes immoral?  As a parent, it is your job to protect your child.  If the parent neglects this duty and is thus ignorant of what goes on in the child's life, are they not then immoral?

 

I'm not talking about some unrealistic 'perfect' standard of hyper vigilance of all things.  If a parent is so ignorant that they do not notice the effects of 5 years of sexual abuse on their child, then yes, I would say that level of ignorance is immoral.

 

Also, it is possible that her mother is either lying or in denial.  In which case it is willing ignorance and even more evil.

[CuriousGeorge]

I think that if I had not witnessed my brother being spanked with a wooden spoon on the bare bum that I may have come forward.

That occurred when I was 4 and he was 6 because he was investigating my privates.  It cemented

in my 4 year old brain that I could get in trouble because of us fooling around with our privates.  I was scared of my mom, she is tough.  I am petite and she is built like a man, she has a strong personality. She was also the one that protected us from our Dad who was actually physically abusive.

 

He was always stressed, worked 7 days a week and took it out on us. They were in many fights over him trying to physically abuse us and he could

not hit us when she was around. Lucky for us he was always working and when he was home, we stayed out of his way.  If she would have left him, in that time, women did not have many job opportunities, she could not have made it work without being completely absent. We would have lived in poverty and my Dad was at least financial support. He never played with us once. She chose to stay. She admits she chose the wrong man.

 

They had a 7 acre hobby farm, livestock, he had a full time job (60 hrs a week, 7 days a week at a factory). My mom and dad had 4 children to look after, a big house to fix up, a huge garden, she sewed all our clothes for a long time.  They are dutch, lived thru the war and German occupation. Having land and a garden symbolizes survival for them and that is how their families made it thru WW2.  My Dad was slave labour in a German work camp.

 

She did take us camping, baked good meals, kept us clean, gave us hugs and kisses. My Dad was later diagnosed with a personality disorder.

My mother did not beat me, but spanked my brothers. I was pinched regularly if I acted up in a store, but that is about it.  I did not come forward

with what was happening.  

 

I feel bad about that i did not tell. If I had, she would have been very angry and stopped the abuse.  I hope everyone that reads this realizes from this that sometimes one spanking can be so disastrous for a child internally.

 

My Mom and Dad live independently of me except for my help one day a week.  It is my mother-in-law that we moved in. She has Alzheimer's. 

I think I put too much on my plate taking care of her when my kids could have used the time and energy. Yes, guilty of the same thing likely as

my mom and her business when I was a kid.  I know that she did not suspect the abuse. I talked to her about it. I had to ask the question, why

did this happen for so long.  Maybe that is a stupid question.

[mahayana]

If she were to apologize for not suspecting, or knowing, or screening that boy - she would have had to screen every man, teenager, boy, and human being in your vicinity for specfic tells of abusive behavior - and then not screen that particular boy.

 

I actually do screen every man/teenager/human that comes within the vicinity of my child. Is that strange? There is plenty her mother could have done to prevent this. My daughter is six and we've had at least five or so conversations on potential sexual predators and what to do in case she ever encounters one. I'm confident that if my kid were inappropriately touched she would immediately come to me for help. I think every parent is morally obligated to keep their children safe from harm.

 

To curiousGeorge, I'm so sorry you're going through this. If you were my daughter I would ask for your forgiveness and offer to pay for therapy. You were so young & you should have never been left unattended with a prepubescent teenage boy.

[CuriousGeorge]

My mom was ignorant of the abuse.  She did protect us from our Dad. My mom and I try to be honest with each other and talk things out.

In this case when she said she can't apologise for something she did not know, it felt wrong to me.  Perhaps because I am angry and sad

for that child that fell thru the cracks and is still trying to manage low self worth.  I feel that children might internalize abuse and it becomes

who they are.  

I scored a 4 on my ACE score. 

I am not in counselling but have been studying all my life and have always been interested in psychology.  I have studied the effects

of abuse because of my childhood experience.   I did not want to abuse my kids and wanted to be a good parent.  I know it is not possible to protect a child 24/7 but I was very careful with my kids, as careful as I could

be in a realistic way. In realistic, I mean, I tried hard to talk to them a lot. When they got bullied at school, I would go and deal with it and

they come to me with problems to talk things out all the time. I got to know my kids friends, and parents of friends, stayed involved, I warned

them outright to come to me if there was inappropriate touching. I explained what that was and how to be careful in a age appropriate way.

Perhaps in my Mom's generation it was not talked about.  Things are different now and that is a good thing.

 

Thank-you both very much for your reply's.  It is easier to go to strangers for advice like this than family. My mom feels bad about this and she

tried to be a good mom for what she knew at the time. I am at least sure of that. 

[Matthew Ed Moran]

"He was a friend of my older brother and had access to do this over 5 years."

 

So your mother raised a child who became close friends with a sexual predator, and this sexual predator preyed upon you for FIVE years, and then she claims NO responsibility? She raised a child so dysfunctional that he was BLIND to the fact that he was friends with a serial sexual predator who was preying upon his own SISTER. Your brother was the gateway through which this predator had access to prey upon you. And she raised your brother. So through her actions, you were incredibly exposed to horrible trauma.

 

And this wasn't just any friend.. It was someone your brother was friends with for 5 YEARS.. So this is someone a good parent would want to know a lot about, because good parents are interested in who their children are friends with, because they know their children are vulnerable and therefore they take the proper precautions to understand the character of those intimately involved with their children, how they are raised at home, etc.

 

So just to be clear, if it were not for the fact that your brother was raised so dysfunctionally that he would be friends with someone who was preying sexually on his sister, you would not have been subject to sexual abuse that occurred for 5 years under her nose.

 

"She said to me that she could not apologize for something that she did not know about."

 

Bah.. what a stone-cold response... The tragedy that would be in my heart, the incredible guilt I would feel if I had a child who was being sexually preyed upon for 5 years right under my nose.. I don't know how I would bear it. Your mom? Meh, can't apologize if I didn't know about it.. 

 

I think that is just one point of your mom's responsibility for this happening to you. I think there are other factors involved, too that she was responsible for (the lack of lines of communication between you and her, and the fact that you feared her). But I wanted to share my thoughts on that part just for now and hopefully my reasoning is valid and it was helpful for you to hold your mom accountable.

[Will Torbald]

Ahh you are correct, thought I read that she had hit both her and her brother.

 

But, is there not some level of ignorance which then becomes immoral?  As a parent, it is your job to protect your child.  If the parent neglects this duty and is thus ignorant of what goes on in the child's life, are they not then immoral?

 

I'm not talking about some unrealistic 'perfect' standard of hyper vigilance of all things.  If a parent is so ignorant that they do not notice the effects of 5 years of sexual abuse on their child, then yes, I would say that level of ignorance is immoral.

 

Also, it is possible that her mother is either lying or in denial.  In which case it is willing ignorance and even more evil.

 

The way I see it is this: If this kid is completely indiferentiated from other boys his age, and shows no signs that he is a problem child, all forms of suspicion vanish from common sense. The question is "Why should she suspect of him?" not "Why didn't she suspect?". What were the signs? What did she miss? Did she miss the signs because she was neglectful, or because the kid was a deceiver? If the kid is clearly announcing signs of trouble, it's neglect. If the kid is being a liar (as kids can be) and a deceiver, keeps secrets, knows how to act nice around adults, and is an all around "apparently harmless generic kid #3578" then it is solely on the fault of the kid making the deception, not on the adults who can't tell his act apart from others. Again, I am not excusing her mother's cold attitude, and I don't know the details of how it could have been avoided, but to blame the mother at knee jerk reaction and immediately condemn it as neglect and abuse is something I try to avoid - because it could happen to me. It could happen to you, it could happen to anyone. That's how deception works. And it won't be my fault that I am being lied to.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

I think you're making excuses for your mom here (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

"She was also the one that protected us from our Dad who was actually physically abusive."

 

This is not valid. She married an abusive person and chose to have kids with an abusive person. If she did not bring this man into your life, you would never have been abused by him. She could have chosen someone who was against hitting kids, right?

 

He didn't abuse you while she was around, but so what? That is like her bringing a lion into the house, keeping it in the cage while she is there with you, but then letting it out when she is not around. Would you say your mom protected you from the lion she brought into the house and which was an eminent danger to you when she was not around?

 

My mom protected me from an abusive man can't possibly mean my mom married an abusive man, and sometimes left me alone with an abusive man.

[mahayana]

If the kid is being a liar (as kids can be) and a deceiver, keeps secrets, knows how to act nice around adults, and is an all around "apparently harmless generic kid #3578" then it is solely on the fault of the kid making the deception, not on the adults who can't tell his act apart from others.

 

As a parent you have to assume everyone is a predator or deceiver until they have proven otherwise. Trust can't be handed out so carelessly and if you do, you're gambling on your child's safety.

[dsayers]

 

She said to me that she could not apologize for something that she did not know about.

 

This is just awful. The correct first response would be to sympathize with your suffering and try to help make sure you're okay, get you any help you need, and support you with however this impacts your current life (and life from then until now). Instead, her first instinct is to dodge blame. Appalling!

 

Any advice about my mom’s responsibility to me to keep me from getting molested? Is she right that since

she did not know, it is not her fault and that she was a victim like me?

 

She IS responsible. The thing sleazy parents try to avoid is the fact that their child's world is literally of their creation. If somebody had access to do this, it's because they failed to protect you. Part of this is by not being more careful with who they let near/alone with you. Part of it also addresses the "didn't know" LIE. Namely, how could she be so disconnected from the defenseless, dependent, not-there-by-choice PERSON that she wouldn't notice who you were with, that it would be inappropriate for the two of you to be alone, AND not notice that you were being traumatized.

 

In a healthy, loving parent-child relationship, the child is EAGER to share their every experience with their parents because it's all brand new to them. So if you went X years with no secret, physical, naked interactions with people, to suddenly have that would stick out. You'd either ask your parents about it or tell them about your new experience... Unless they've led you to believe they do not care about your experiences and/or have modeled for you that they're not there for you. After all, how did this abuser know to choose you instead of somebody else's kid sister? The path of least resistance because even they could see you didn't have enough of a support system to risk interrupting their predation.

 

I'm really sorry all of this is a reality for you. I hope you'll take some of the advice here and not allow your abusers to continue to victimize you by convincing you that it's okay because they didn't know. It was their job to know. That was the promise they made to you by bringing you into this world without your consent.

[Will Torbald]

As a parent you have to assume everyone is a predator or deceiver until they have proven otherwise. Trust can't be handed out so carelessly and if you do, you're gambling on your child's safety.

 

You'd also have to assume your child could also be lying to you, and treat them like they never tell you the truth. I understand your line of reasoning, I am not trying to argue against it. I'm just pointing out that even if you did that you could still be deceived because that's what predators do. And I don't want to blame something on the OP here, but if she spent years hiding the truth to her parents, she was also lying to them every time they would ask how she was doing. Yes, there's the fear, the spanking, the shame, but from the other side - from the side of the one taking after - you are also not being told about it. If I kept a secret from my parents, why should I blame them for not knowing, if I am keeping the secret? Again, I know the issue is serious, this isn't a regular secret like who broke a window somewhere, but the action of witholding information is similar. I would be condemning them of immorality of something I am allowing by not doing something about it. There's tons of reasons why someone would keep it a secret, that's not my issue here. My issue is where do you place the mother, in what category of morality.

[mahayana]

"I'm just pointing out that even if you did that you could still be deceived because that's what predators do."

 

I'm not sure about this. I could be proven wrong but I think if you know what to look for, you can spot predators or people that aren't quite right. I know that's just a feeling and not an argument but I have really reliable predator detectors. (my gaydar is spot on as well) Predators target vulnerable people for a reason.

 

I still think that if you bring a child into the world, you are morally obligated to protect them until they themselves are an adult. Protecting them includes proper education on sexual predators. The OP withheld the truth from her mother out of fear that she did something wrong. There never would have been that misunderstanding had her mother had a discussion with her. Of course there are things out of our control that can harm our children, but this particular instance was totally preventable IMO.

[CuriousGeorge]

Thank-you Matthew, Will, Mahayana for your input.

 

Yes, the predator...  my brothers friend had access to me for 5 years and this same brother did the same type of abuse only once himself. Yes, I did confront him as well when I came out about the abuse of his friend.  The niece that I was trying to protect is this brothers daughter. The same crummy friend was over there all the time around my niece, thus my anxiety.  My brothers answer to my confrontation of him doing it as well ...   was that a teenage boy's sexual drive is so strong that they do this sort of thing because they are so full of hormones. Thus he did made excuses for his own behaviour and his friends. My mom is aware of this as well.

My Mom seems to be angry at the friend of my brother but not so much at my brother (I guess doing it once is different than doing it all the time.) 

That friend of my brothers went on to have an affair with my brothers wife.  Their long friendship finally broke up and so did my brothers marriage.

My brothers wife fooled around on him a total of 5 times and finally left him for someone else. The protection I tried to give my niece did not do her any good when her new stepfather molested her. He served 18 months in prison and that 2nd marriage of my x-sister-in-law failed as well.  The niece is now a single mother and really, really screwed up in my opinion.  

These events are quite astounding aren't they?  I am very careful of people now and do not trust easily. 

 

My molester was a very polite boy. He impressed my mom by his good manners.  His background was English. I can ask my brother if he ever suspected the abuse and why this friend was not hanging around him at these times he was over instead of messing with me. What is the point of

asking him though?  His excuse was lame the first time.  

 

My Dad, (the lion).  My mom married him and thought that she could "fix" him.  He was socially strange and she said many times she made a terrible mistake.  No, she could not protect us from him when she was not around. True.  He lashed out at us when she was not around, usually when we did something that a kid would do like spill our milk or talk back to him. His eyes looked mean. He was dysfunctional. Not until he was old did they

figure it out about the borderline personality disorder. I am the youngest of the four.  Yes, she chose to keep having kids with him.  She wanted kids badly.  Very late in life he was diagnosed with "borderline personality disorder" by a CCAC geriatric psychiatrist. I bought two books on it and gave one to her. It is a condition that doesn't respond well to any kind of counselling.  It is hereditary too. I had to try to examine myself to see if I had it.  My mom read the books I gave her and said "I see that this is the problem with him".

 

They had a terrible marriage.  Yes, she knew he was abusive with the kids.  By telling you the situation she was in, I am trying to be fair to her in what was a difficult situation.  When one weighs what actions people do, should parents circumstances be taken into account?  There is a study (social experiment)  where people are told to give shocks to others to make them behave better - many of the test subjects ended up giving the shocks in spite of knowing it might kill the subject because of a (faked) heart condition.  Most of the test subjects failed the test and administered shocks that could kill the subject - even though they knew. The "fake authoritarian dr., in the white lab coat" pushed these people to do this.  Perhaps this is a different way of looking at it? 

Milgram experiment  is the name of the study. Done to discover if holocaust participants were just following orders.

 

I have had to examine a lot of things to know how the sexual abuse manifested itself in me. It is a rotten ongoing chore like peeling an onion.  I was worried about that I might molest my own kids at one point when I was a young mother. I had read somewhere that abused kids often go on to become abusers themselves.  I question myself all the time about my parenting and read a lot of books.  I have tried to be a transitional figure and responsible to my family.

My mom is now 84 and my dad 91.  I am the main supporter as I am available and my 3 brothers are all working full time.  If I cut them out of my life, for these actions, it is something that I have to live with doing. They are in their 11th hour and have needed me due to health issues.  I want to be truthful here, I want to do the right thing for myself and for them. Stefan cut his mother out of his life.  I think she sounded like a terrible mother.  My mother, protected me a bunch and if she had left my Dad, I think I would score higher on the ACE score.  There would have been poverty and divorce added to my score.  

My husband asked me the question "What do you want the end result of all this to be"?  I have told him to read this blog with your comments.

That is a good question.  I agree that trust can't be handed out carelessly.  I did not trust anybody easily with my kids.

Is there forgiveness for stupidity and or abuse? If I walked away from family, it would cause quite a stir as I have been the one in the driver's seat of

geriatric care.  I feel let down, though. What is the next step in healing? I am angry.  I have confronted them. These are things Stefan said to do.

There is no excuse for my Dad's behaviour or my Mom's acceptance of that lion in the house, as Matthew put it so well. There doesn't seem to be accountability as well. This hurts me still.  Is there ever going to be recovery from this. I am near 50 and still digesting this stuff.  I wonder what children who do not go thru this sort of stuff are like and what difference it makes in their lives.  There is a study by Princeton University - Immediate and long-term impacts of Child Sexual abuse.  In it it talks about the long term effects and I fit some of the damaged criteria quite well.

I told my mom this and she discounted the study and said she read Dr. Spock about not spanking (50 years ago) and that the man later said that not spanking was not working either.  I reminded her that there has been a lot more studies over the last 50 years and that social science is much more advanced now. Just like medical advances we have advances in the understanding of the human mind and condition.  She seems to belittle what I am trying to get across.  I always “blow everything out of proprtion and believe everything I read, I am told.”

The question was asked - When am I going to just get over this whole thing?

I don't have an answer for that one.

[CuriousGeorge]

Matthew, I was thinking about the Lion in the cage analogy.  I think that it is a too extreme.  It was more like a short tempered much older sibling, the way my Dad acted.  To be fair, his physical abuse was not life threatening like a lion's.  A lion would tear apart a kid and then eat them. He would lash out at us in frustration and anger and hit us a couple of times.  It stopped when we became teenagers because he became scared that we would hit him back (and my one brother did that).  My mom prevented this by being tough with him and telling him off and even standing between us and him.

 

I don't think my Mom knew what to look for in a predator. This was 45 years ago and advertising about things like this on the news was unheard of.

I do think that she should have thought about this as a possibility.  When she was a child, a dinner guest put his hand in her crotch at a family meal.  She immediately left the table.  There was no discussion ever with me about good touching or bad touching and I had a brother that was 11 years older, 7 years older and 2 years older.  This was neglect or ignorance on her part - but it is her opinion against mine.  Do I push that envelope and demand that she agree with me?

 

Listening to these podcasts on abuse has made me question how and why this happened to me.  I am angry all over again after I listen to some of them and it stirs up these questions.  Stefan has cut ties with his family.  I think that they are unaccountable for their actions and thus still abusive of his person in that. My mothers denial of it being her fault is what I am weighing in on.  I am trying to determine if she is accountable,

and to be fair to her, I wanted you to know the situation with her personally.  Society in general was way less informed 45 years ago.  Should this be accounted for?  If our media brings things to attention for us, are past generations accountable for not having knowledge and protections in place for children?

 

I think that my trying to be a really good person to others is a compensation for feeling bad inside about myself. Then if that is the case - I am misleading myself because of something that happened 45 years ago in trying to be too good and too careful.

 

I have stopped the cycle, so that is a positive. My children and their children will be as protected as possible, if I can have anything to do with that. I agree that we are morally obligated to protect our children till they are adults.  I think that even when they are adults we should act like mentors and gently ask them when they are making decisions to take certain dangers we know of into consideration.  My 19 year old son and I have discussions and I point out things I think are important to him as white male in our society.  I have asked him to listen to some of Stefan's podcasts on single mothers and R vs K strategies.  My advice to him about life was be very careful who you marry and try to pick what you do for a living wisely too.

He is doing a double major in engineering.  I had him go to a private career firm to weigh his likes and dislikes when he was 17 years old.

We regularly communicate though he is busy with university and his girlfriend. 

 

Thank-you everyone.  I realize this was all about me and my family problems.  It is self centered to post all this stuff and these questions, and you

have been gracious and each insightful in your comments. Perhaps people that read it will learn from the mistakes of our family and be more aware of their own actions with their own children. 

[mahayana]

No, it's not self centered at all to post your questions! I for one appreciate you sharing. You say you're having a hard time dealing with your anger. I was wondering, is you confronting your mom & brother pretty new? I would definitely recommend seeing a therapist. It angers me just hearing you describe how unsupportive/unapologetic your mom is being! She made mistakes & perhaps she was less informed back then but that's no excuse for her not holding herself accountable now. I'm in a similar situation as you and I know how hard it is to walk away from bad parents. My parents are older and if I cut them out of my life as I've been tempted to do, the last years of their life would be extremely difficult. (although I can't figure out if I'm making excuses for them because I'm too chicken to go through with it!) I love hearing that you have a good relationship with your own kids and that is so awesome you're sharing some of the podcasts with your son.

 

There's a book I've been meaning to read that I've heard Stef speak of many times called The Six Pillars of Self Esteem by Nathaniel Branden. Your family history is similar to my own & I think that might be a good book for us. When our parents don't protect us as they should it does major damage to one's self esteem which I'm beginning to think is an underlying cause to anger. Good luck to you & better late than never to start dealing with childhood trauma! Feel free to PM me anytime, I'd love to hear an update.

[Kurtis]

Matthew, I was thinking about the Lion in the cage analogy.  I think that it is a too extreme.  It was more like a short tempered much older sibling, the way my Dad acted.  To be fair, his physical abuse was not life threatening like a lion's.  A lion would tear apart a kid and then eat them. He would lash out at us in frustration and anger and hit us a couple of times.  It stopped when we became teenagers because he became scared that we would hit him back (and my one brother did that).  My mom prevented this by being tough with him and telling him off and even standing between us and him.

 

 

I wonder if you are over defending both of your parents?

 

Throughout our evolution, children who were neglected or not cared for faced a very real potential for death.  

Having a caregiver that can randomly act out in frustration and anger, especially in a physical way, must have been very frightening to you as a child.  

 

Imagine yourself today confronted by a giant, multiple times your size, who lacks self control, attacking you in a very unpredictable and violent fashion.  As a child it is even worse because you need that persons love and care for your survival.

 

Did he ever hit you and your siblings in the head?  Even if he didn't, when somebody like that is acting out, they are not thinking rationally.  There is always the potential for someone to slip, for a blow to land just the right way to seriously impair or kill, or cause the child to fall and hit their head. 

 

I would say that these types of behaviours are very life threatening and certainly would be perceived that way by children.

[Taiga]

Curious George, thank you for posting, your honesty is power.

 

I wish for you to read the linked. My friend, this is his written. His blog is Statement Analysis.

 

He his career is investigation of exactly what you have experienced. He is to analyze within his 

interviewing accused, innocents, the full spectrum.

Statements of others, where they be verbal and or written.

He, his job, is he sorts out what is out right lies, what is deception,

what is called one's withholding information. This the very minimal nut shell of what he does.

 

He to interview adult survivors, as you are, who yes were sexually molested.

This link to one of his commentary's of many: http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/01/statement-and-behavioral-analysis-of.html

 

I think you will find the linked of your interest.

His blog is open, public discussion.

He provides readers the teachings of Statement Analysis.

 

Curious George, you coming forth to write the above.

You are angry. Rightfully. This is the beginning of healing.

I send you positive energy. Be not afraid, the worst was when it happened " to you"

 

Even if it seems like the reactionary of flat out denial from your mother feels " equally painful"

She carries no burden: she believes her denial has more merit than the pain you are experiencing today. 

This is narcissism: her owned.

 

CG, I have more resources for you. I will post when I am able.

 

I am new here. I am to make one more post, this I believe is the 5th.  I would like to be within

this discussion. I am for now to wait. Taiga

[dsayers]

 

My mom was ignorant of the abuse.  She did protect us from our Dad.

 

Being ignorant of your child's experience is neglect, a form of abuse. Also, the only reason your dad was YOUR dad is because you mom chose him to be. Choosing to create you with a specific person is the exact opposite of protecting you from that person.

 

Yes, she knew he was abusive with the kids.  By telling you the situation she was in, I am trying to be fair to her in what was a difficult situation.

 

The situation she was in was one that she chose. You didn't have a choice. It's not fair to you to make excuses for her abuse.

 

I know it is not possible to protect a child 24/7 but I was very careful with my kids, as careful as I could

be in a realistic way. In realistic, I mean, I tried hard to talk to them a lot. When they got bullied at school

 

I reject your claim that it is not possible to protect a child 24/7. Accepting that claim only provides for neglect to occur. Starting from birth, the child's entire world is the creation of their parents. As they get older, and they are better suited to be away from their parents, this will be at a time when the parents have already negotiated with and modeled for them a large array of behaviors that the child will be able to protect themselves. If not, then the parent left them exposed before such a time, and is again the responsibility of the parent.

 

You mentioned your own children getting bullied at school. Well, why were they there? Because their parents put them there. Their parents (you) are responsible for this.

 

In one of your posts, you asked about the next step in healing. The first step in anything is calling things by their proper name. If you think a Grizzly Bear is a stuffed animal, it really won't matter what the next steps you take are, because they won't be based in reality.

[CuriousGeorge]

Thank you, I will read the book.  I think that my story is not that uncommon and I am sorry Mahayna that you share some of these experiences as well. It has helped me to post. If someone knows of a really good therapist from the Halton region in the GTA, I would be game to see someone. It has been hit and miss to find someone. The last one I had I did not connect with at all. Perhaps I was too fragmented somehow to get my thoughts out.

 

Yes, Kurtis, good point about how abuse can end up terribly serious and cause death when someone is out of

control. I have heard this before and agree.  Yes, this happens. Perhaps I do minimize what happened.  I am striving to be as rational as possible.

I know I am damaged emotionally and could perhaps not see things clearly.  It takes a long time sometimes to come to solid conclusions and the

info I am getting from this site is opening these wounds again. I question myself a lot and second guess myself.

 
I have talked to my Mom again for 3 hours today. She did say again she could not apologize for something she did not know about.  She also said

that if she knew then what she knows now, she would make totally different choices. She would have educated me.  She would not have married my dad and had kids with him.  I think that is enough for me.  I have given her a lot of info to digest as I printed off some studies for her on the effects of sexual abuse on adults.  

 

Thank you

I guess this concludes this subject for now until I find another peel of the onion. Hope there is not much more to go.

[dsayers]

She also said

that if she knew then what she knows now, she would make totally different choices. She would have educated me.  She would not have married my dad and had kids with him.

 

But this is a lie. You don't turn a chainsaw on, do a lot of damage, and then say "If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have done that." It's because of the potential damage you can do with a chainsaw that you need to figure out how to do that properly BEFORE engaging in it.

 

Who we create a new life with and who we choose to spend the rest of our lives with are the most important choices we will make in our lives because they are the choices that can do the most damage. If I were in your shoes and got fed the "If I knew then what I know now" line, I would've asked "How could you not know? How could my fragile life mean so little to you that you wouldn't research how to handle it properly?" Does she have a cell phone? Has she spent any time reading about how it works or how to accomplish X, Y, and Z with it? Is a phone you're going to pitch in a few years more important than the raise release nature of creating another human life?

 

I guess this concludes this subject for now

 

This is just another way of ignoring the feedback that is uncomfortable. :/

[fractional slacker]

If a parent doesn't know of sexual abuse are they responsible for that?

In the abstract, the answer would be no. In the absence of knowledge, there are no choices or responsibility.

 

The question would then be is the nature of lacking knowledge of abuse caused from being uninformed, ignorant/oblivious,  or malevolent?  The incentives to feign ignorance cannot be underestimated or ignored.  If there were only one minor incident of abuse for which the child was not substantially harmed, it would be safe to say the child could fool the parent into believing nothing is wrong.  The parent could claim plausible deniability.

At the extreme opposite end of the abuse spectrum where the child is exhibiting classic signs of abuse by withdrawing or acting out, a parent could not claim plausible deniability. At some point along that spectrum, the parent flips from benevolence to malevolence. Pinpointing that spot without context is nearly impossible.

 

[Tyr]

You'd also have to assume your child could also be lying to you, and treat them like they never tell you the truth. I understand your line of reasoning, I am not trying to argue against it. I'm just pointing out that even if you did that you could still be deceived because that's what predators do. And I don't want to blame something on the OP here, but if she spent years hiding the truth to her parents, she was also lying to them every time they would ask how she was doing. Yes, there's the fear, the spanking, the shame, but from the other side - from the side of the one taking after - you are also not being told about it. If I kept a secret from my parents, why should I blame them for not knowing, if I am keeping the secret? Again, I know the issue is serious, this isn't a regular secret like who broke a window somewhere, but the action of witholding information is similar. I would be condemning them of immorality of something I am allowing by not doing something about it. There's tons of reasons why someone would keep it a secret, that's not my issue here. My issue is where do you place the mother, in what category of morality.

Ridiculous, if you're child is lying to about something this important you have already failed as a parent.

If your child is afraid to report sexual abuse to you, you have failed as a parent.

Children do not just become "deceivers" this is something that is trained.

 

"It could happen to anybody" is absolutely false. Children that have an unshakable bond with their parents will NEVER deceive them about the character of their friends and a parent that fails to vet their child's friends in being willfully neglectful.

[Will Torbald]

Ridiculous, if you're child is lying to about something this important you have already failed as a parent.

If your child is afraid to report sexual abuse to you, you have failed as a parent.

Children do not just become "deceivers" this is something that is trained.

 

"It could happen to anybody" is absolutely false. Children that have an unshakable bond with their parents will NEVER deceive them about the character of their friends and a parent that fails to vet their child's friends in being willfully neglectful.

 

She explained later how the boy was a very charming english boy that impressed her mother with his manners. That kid knew exactly what he was doing by gaining the trust of adults, and how to avoid being suspicious. I don't care how he learned to deceive, he simply was one.

[dsayers]

She explained later how the boy was a very charming english boy that impressed her mother with his manners. That kid knew exactly what he was doing by gaining the trust of adults, and how to avoid being suspicious.

 

...up until the point he molested a child. In a healthy parent-child relationship, this would lead to the child telling the parent of what happened, even if they didn't perceive it as traumatic in the moment. And again assuming a healthy parent-child relationship, the parent would then nurture the child, acknowledge that THEY failed, and adjust accordingly. Which could lead to the parents of the abuser being held accountable, the abuser getting therapy for his own abuse, and all sorts of correction for the problems instead of all these people involved going on to suffer and inflict more suffering.

[Will Torbald]

...up until the point he molested a child. In a healthy parent-child relationship, this would lead to the child telling the parent of what happened, even if they didn't perceive it as traumatic in the moment. And again assuming a healthy parent-child relationship, the parent would then nurture the child, acknowledge that THEY failed, and adjust accordingly. Which could lead to the parents of the abuser being held accountable, the abuser getting therapy for his own abuse, and all sorts of correction for the problems instead of all these people involved going on to suffer and inflict more suffering.

 

The moral argument is whether a person is responsible for being lied to, not whether someone fails as a parent or not. I really don't have the energy to defend her mother, or to condemn her mother. Are you going to blame yourself when someone deceives you? Are you going to tell another person that being lied to is their fault because if they had been nicer it wouldn't have happened? If the mother is guilty, every person who has been lied to, or had truth kept from themselves, is guilty of their own deception.

[dsayers]

The moral argument is whether a person is responsible for being lied to

 

I don't know where this is coming from. The title of the thread is "If a parent doesn't know of sexual abuse are they responsible for that?" Within which, you said "the boy was a very charming english boy that impressed her mother with his manners. That kid knew exactly what he was doing by gaining the trust of adults, and how to avoid being suspicious." Which I then qualified by pointing out that this deception would've been ended the moment he molested a child IF that child had the basic support system of caring parents.

 

Have you ever been around a healthy child? They are eager to tell you about... EVERYTHING. They'll especially do this with their perceived protectors since their protectors can help them interpret their experiences. If a child isn't able to share with their parents, this is because their parents have made it very clear that they are not there for the child.

 

This is just addressing the voluntary actions of the child. There's also the disposition of the child to consider. Which will change dramatically enough that ANYBODY that has access to the child is going to notice. Which will concern anybody that cares for the child.

 

So yeah, I reject the claim that the molester deceiving the parents up front absolves them of responsibility. I reiterate that a child's world is literally of the parent's creation. There is absolutely no reason to leave a 6 year old alone with a 12 year old no matter how nice he seems. A 6 year old should not be outside of earshot of the parent, with the exception of a trusted adult. And if THAT trust ends up being misplaced, it again is the responsibility of the parents for not properly vetting the person they are entrusting their child's well-being to. It is no secret that even a singular such occurrence can have lasting effects on the child.

[Will Torbald]

So yeah, I reject the claim that the molester deceiving the parents up front absolves them of responsibility.

 

Okay, so you think that when people are lied to, it is their own fault. That's all there is to it in the end.

[dsayers]

Okay, so you think that when people are lied to, it is their own fault. That's all there is to it in the end.

 

Well I could make the case for self-knowledge leading to knowing what to look for in people you let near you. However, for the sake of this topic, I'll just say no. And that I think it's dishonest to continue to refer to the parent-child relationship as if it's comparable to the relationship of any two people. I'll try and make the case for that here. Let me know if/where you feel it ceases to describe the real world.

 

I am not responsible for feeding random stranger X. If however I was to imprison X, it would be my responsibility to feed him because he is deprived of the means of feeding himself as the direct result of my actions. He's not there by choice. His survival is dependent on my feeding him. That is to say that when somebody is under my power against their will and/or dependent upon me for their survival, I have MORE of a moral obligation to them, because of the power disparities.

 

It is immoral for me to assault another human being. Suppose I was a 7 foot tall, 250 pound, all muscle dude. It's still immoral to assault somebody, but we understand that the potential for damage is far greater if I was to assault some 4 foot tall, 100 pound weakling. I have MORE of a moral obligation to them, again because of the power disparity.

 

In the parent-child relationship, the parent is larger than the child, the child is dependent on the parent, and the child is not there by choice. ALL OF THIS was decided upon by the parent. So they have an enormous power disparity over this human being. They have voluntarily created a positive obligation to them to protect and nurture them until such a time that they are able to for themselves. We could have a debate on when that should be, but I think we can agree that at 6 years old, no human being is qualified to fully take care of themselves.

 

In conclusion, if a 6 year old does not share their experiences with their parents, this is a definite indication that the parent has neglected (abused) the child. If a parent does not notice a change of disposition in the 6 year old as the result of somebody taking clothes off and engaging in physical contact they've NEVER known before, this is a definite indication of serious neglect. This is all very important to understand. If we don't call an abuser an abuser, we are protecting abusers. That's not good. We all lose in that scenario.

 

Thank you for your time.

[Will Torbald]

Well I could make the case for self-knowledge leading to knowing what to look for in people you let near you. However, for the sake of this topic, I'll just say no. And that I think it's dishonest to continue to refer to the parent-child relationship as if it's comparable to the relationship of any two people. I'll try and make the case for that here. Let me know if/where you feel it ceases to describe the real world.

 

I am not responsible for feeding random stranger X. If however I was to imprison X, it would be my responsibility to feed him because he is deprived of the means of feeding himself as the direct result of my actions. He's not there by choice. His survival is dependent on my feeding him. That is to say that when somebody is under my power against their will and/or dependent upon me for their survival, I have MORE of a moral obligation to them, because of the power disparities.

 

It is immoral for me to assault another human being. Suppose I was a 7 foot tall, 250 pound, all muscle dude. It's still immoral to assault somebody, but we understand that the potential for damage is far greater if I was to assault some 4 foot tall, 100 pound weakling. I have MORE of a moral obligation to them, again because of the power disparity.

 

In the parent-child relationship, the parent is larger than the child, the child is dependent on the parent, and the child is not there by choice. ALL OF THIS was decided upon by the parent. So they have an enormous power disparity over this human being. They have voluntarily created a positive obligation to them to protect and nurture them until such a time that they are able to for themselves. We could have a debate on when that should be, but I think we can agree that at 6 years old, no human being is qualified to fully take care of themselves.

 

In conclusion, if a 6 year old does not share their experiences with their parents, this is a definite indication that the parent has neglected (abused) the child. If a parent does not notice a change of disposition in the 6 year old as the result of somebody taking clothes off and engaging in physical contact they've NEVER known before, this is a definite indication of serious neglect. This is all very important to understand. If we don't call an abuser an abuser, we are protecting abusers. That's not good. We all lose in that scenario.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

Neglect is not an inflicted behavior, nor is it a violent action. It is cruel to not know, but since it isn't a positive action, I cannot say it is immoral. It is rather aesthetically negative, if not the most aesthetically negative thing to do to have ignorance of the problems of your child - but since the original post explicitely asked for "a moral, ethical answer" that's what I make of it. The boy who molested her is completely immoral and an unethical abuser. The mother who didn't know is completely aesthetically negative and a passive abuser. If I am wrong about any of this, I would like to hear reasonable proof of my mistake as I believe this is very serious and useful to have outmost clarity on what is and isn't ethical.

[dsayers]

If I am wrong about any of this, I would like to hear reasonable proof of my mistake

 

I had just provided you with some. You continue to speak as if the parent-child relationship is comparable to just any two people as if I hadn't made the case for why it's not, while not pointing to any flaw in the case I made.

 

When people decide to have a child, they are voluntarily creating a positive obligation to that child to protect and nurture it until such a time as it is capable of doing so for itself. Neglect is a violation of this contract.

[mahayana]

"Neglect is not an inflicted behavior, nor is it a violent action. It is cruel to not know, but since it isn't a positive action, I cannot say it is immoral. It is rather aesthetically negative..."

 

So if a mother neglected to feed her newborn baby resulting in its death, you would consider the inaction aesthetically negative as opposed to immoral?