AccuTron Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I am now aware that the terrible time in school years was like a potent hand the Devil had in a game of poker. It wasn't just one or two cards, it was the whole hand. One of those potent cards was that my parents had me skip sixth grade, since I was a smart student. Unfortunately, I already had very little social development, and this made it vastly worse (not to mention that I was also now younger than the bullies). I was from then on always at least a year behind the other students socially/psychologically. It was impossible to recover the lost ground. Really really really bad idea. (Along with the "bad poker cards" described in this link, which another poster has provided: The Absent Father and The Devouring Mother | An Upturned Soul ) Occasionally we see the story of the bright tenth grader who is already enrolled in MIT or wherever, and I really wonder about that. If the kid has good parents, he stands a vastly better chance, but I still wonder about his social opportunities, he's permanently a non-standard fit. Whatcha' think?
brucethecollie Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Perhaps it depends on what the kid really wants. I was put into advanced classes because I was smart but I didn't want to be in advanced classes and it turned out detrimental for me. I have a friend who begged to skip 9th grade so her parents let her and she did fine because she was propelling herself forward-she was self-motivated. If a kid doesn't have any influence over that decision, it may do more harm than good. If one has to be in the public school system, then it is challenging to be the youngest in a group because usually there aren't too many others in the room who share that situation and because one is forced to be there. My kids are homeschooled and there are some activities we do during the week where they are among the youngest. They aren't coerced to do any of the activities and in the case of things they really want to learn more about like legos, electronics, and video games, the older kids and the challenging atmosphere they provide are a wealth of information and value to them. Their self esteem doesn't take any hits because they know they can remove themselves from any activity and because they spend time with children their own age and sometimes those younger than them. When they teach what they know to younger kids, it illustrates to them in a very clear way, how we all learn from each other and pass on knowledge and how experience and humility is valuable. I've been very careful to not stress about my kids not fitting in and making them aware of that stress because I don't think it serves them. My daughter is very allergic to certain foods and it can make her feel she doesn't fit in. I've tried to help her overcome self-pity and instead to focus on what she can eat and to recognize that the shared experience of a cupcake with another child isn't the only means for bonding. I grew up having to live very differently than others and luckily my parents taught me to have dignity, to do what was necessary to take care of myself, and to never assume that others were going to be alienated by the things I had to do differently. My observation is that many children are not equipped with knowing how to cope when they don't feel they "fit in" with others. I didn't have problems with having friends and I think it helped that I didn't put off an air of feeling out of place or sorry for myself (though I certainly had those feelings) and others could sense that and feel comfortable around me. If you go to a playground and observe parents for a while you will notice how many parents have social anxiety and are afraid of being embarrassed by their kids and project all of those feelings onto their kids. I say this as someone who has struggled with social anxiety since age 5. Awareness is key as well as a willingness to act on rationality. So to answer your question I'd ask, "what does the child want?" 1
NotDarkYet Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I wished I had been held back a year. I was an early summer baby, so was developmentally 8-10 months behind my friends and was constantly struggling to keep up. Add to that the fact that I was naturally slower to develop - created an inferiority complex which I am still struggling with.
AccuTron Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 I wished I had been held back a year. I was an early summer baby, so was developmentally 8-10 months behind my friends and was constantly struggling to keep up. Add to that the fact that I was naturally slower to develop - created an inferiority complex which I am still struggling with. Truly! It is long term damage.
dsayers Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Unfortunately, I already had very little social development Sadly, this isn't a matter of fortune. If a parent doesn't spend enough time with their child, talk to them, have conversations with them, and negotiate with them, the child will not have social skills. 1
Donnadogsoth Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I skipped a grade, to my detriment. The social interaction is harder. I don't recommend it.
Romulox Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I am now aware that the terrible time in school years was like a potent hand the Devil had in a game of poker. It wasn't just one or two cards, it was the whole hand. One of those potent cards was that my parents had me skip sixth grade, since I was a smart student. Unfortunately, I already had very little social development, and this made it vastly worse (not to mention that I was also now younger than the bullies). I was from then on always at least a year behind the other students socially/psychologically. It was impossible to recover the lost ground. Really really really bad idea. (Along with the "bad poker cards" described in this link, which another poster has provided: The Absent Father and The Devouring Mother | An Upturned Soul ) Occasionally we see the story of the bright tenth grader who is already enrolled in MIT or wherever, and I really wonder about that. If the kid has good parents, he stands a vastly better chance, but I still wonder about his social opportunities, he's permanently a non-standard fit. Whatcha' think? I'm sorry to hear that; as someone who was bullied in their own grade, I can only imagine what that must be like if you are a year behind the bullies. I certainly agree that it is a devastating move by the parents if the child is not motivated to skip ahead and willing to accept the difficulties that may result. Have you considered the idea that you may have been ahead of the class socially? Is it a sign of a lack of social development that you weren't accepted by a group of bullies? Do socially healthy people thrive when forced to associate with people whom they would otherwise avoid? How was your social life once you escaped public school and were able to voluntarily choose your interactions? 1
AccuTron Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 I'm sorry to hear that; as someone who was bullied in their own grade, I can only imagine what that must be like if you are a year behind the bullies. I certainly agree that it is a devastating move by the parents if the child is not motivated to skip ahead and willing to accept the difficulties that may result. Have you considered the idea that you may have been ahead of the class socially? Is it a sign of a lack of social development that you weren't accepted by a group of bullies? Do socially healthy people thrive when forced to associate with people whom they would otherwise avoid? How was your social life once you escaped public school and were able to voluntarily choose your interactions? Wow, there's a plate-full. Thanks for the feedback. I'd never thought before, not explicitly, that I might have been more advanced in some ways. I was in the first months of fifth grade at a large Catholic school, and had a great teacher. (Earlier years had some troublesome teachers, for me or my sister, real psycho lay teachers. Weighed about three hundred pounds each, probably not happy, and didn't mind taking it out on the kids now and then.) If I'd been left in that classroom, a great nun, it would've been probably quite healthy. God forbid my parents would actually talk to me...at all...and get my opinion. I was actually beginning to be a bit happy there. But noooooo, I was told on a friday that on monday I'd be going to a new school. No discussion, no prep, just crushing shock, and that was typical behavior. It was a private school with small classes. The teachers were good, and during class I was technically safe but always crushed by everything else. Populated by yet further spread of age, difficult to find a friend, very few girls at all, much less anywhere near my age, and plenty of male bullies who were too awful to stay in public school. (Parents -- do your research!!!) For three years, I was the school target. Small buildings, no place to hide. Just started one day, like a switch turned on. They decided I was gay...the word used then was I think fruit...and I'm not at all, had no idea why I was targeted. I walked into a room and I was hated, is all I knew. I was held upside down in a toilet while it was flushed, just another day. God forbid I had parents who'd listen. I didn't tell them, because I assumed it was their will, and my father never once in his entire life had a conversation with me, my mother was a vicious lying sexual predator...but so proper on the outside, going to church and all...so the thought of talking to my parents wasn't even practical. Now I can see that it would've helped, but not then. I had endless degradation and bruises on my arm from knuckle punches. My father noticed them one day while talking to mother, grabbed (yes, grabbed, as in non-gently) my arm to look at them, then just released my arm, like tossing an empty soda can, didn't pause the conversation, never said a word later. For a moment, I thought an adult would care, and that S.O.B. shot down that notion in an instant. This is the background I'm working against. But it all was plenty of money and toys! Throw toys at a kid, and you can just ignore him otherwise, good parenting tip there. I also had three pencil points stuck in my body from being stabbed (two still there), and one left a two-inch dark streak inside my upper arm (decades later faded away since not as deep). Well into adult years, I assumed that all children were stabbed, it was normal. That streak was there for years, not one comment or question about what that black streak in my white skin was. South Florida, I'm shirtless around the pool plenty, and it protruded from my shirt sleeve anyway. And he was a pathologist, supposedly looking into causes of things. Too busy chasing skirts to care. I was moved into a large public school at tenth grade, and bullies there too, but at least more space to hide, although I had to search out those places. By this time, I was well into a schizoid state, mentally detached from my abused body, which was also getting fat. I never had one adult give a damn. Oh, and the biggest bully outfit of all was the damned Phys. Ed. dept, never once actually trying to help a person who was obviously needing guidance. I was put in very dangerous situations, and forced to become a withdrawn rebel to avoid serious injury. The women in high school were physically flowering to put it mildly, but I only knew being treated like crap, couldn't fathom...most of my life...that anyone would want me, tho' I now understand I'm actually quite striking. The only women I ever saw...was allowed to see...were my mother's family, who can be called vicious man-hating urban gutter trash. Who looked good on the outside, went to church, etc. I now understand that other students liked and respected me, even at the small school, but only once did I ever hear that. I take this moment to tell school students everywhere, if you respect or like someone, and are shy about it, just say something, three words is enough, SOMETHING, ANYTHING, to let them know. Don't assume they already know. At the times, I had no idea how to deconstruct this like I'm doing here. After high school, the damage was so thorough, and not at all lessening where parents were concerned, that I was thoroughly crippled. I was easily 10-15 years behind in psycho/social development, had no social skills at all. I'm elderly now, yup, just shy of medicare, and it's only in the last ten years or so, with a good therapist, and my own determination, that I understand all this, and have changed dramatically in personality. Yet I'm very aware of the huge damage done, like destroying a village and expecting it to continue it's culture, ain't gonna be easy. When I was in my fifties, and both parents still alive, I was at their house on a visit...which always took at least two weeks of recovery...and they actually asked if I'd been mistreated in that small school. AS I'M FIXING MY BREAKFAST. All the hours yet to come in the day, still a day or two to go, and they ask me as I'm getting ready to eat. Yeah, wait till someone is getting ready to eat, then ask them about abuse, great for the digestion and appetite. I wanted to kill them both, and just locked up. All I could get out was "Yeah." They never asked again, or even pursued that moment. I wish I could've gotten more words out, other than "I want to bash in your heads" which was all I could feel. Yet now, both dead, I realize it would've been meaningless. My mother made that clear in later years trying to talk to her -- "Oh we won't talk about that" -- and my father made it clear all along. Yeesh. Silver linings? Well, I've got empathy, but I think I already had that. I take pain well, guess where I learned that. And had several compliments on my peacefulness. "You took that really well" or "I would've punched him." Disgusting that such events have to occur in the first place, for someone to notice. Good to get this out here in this forum. Few are the listeners in the world at large. 1
Romulox Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Wow, I am so sorry to hear you had to go through such hell as a child, especially with parents like that. My initial thought about your interaction with your parents in your fifties was that their guilt about how they treated you during your childhood might have finally caught up with them as they realized the end of their lives were approaching, but each time I read it over I lean more towards thinking they are just that damn sadistic. I can't imagine there are any words you could have got out that could have made that situation any better. As for silver linings, do you think the FDR conversation would have resonated with you had you not gone through everything that you did? Would you be part of the group conversation that may one day save future generations from living through similar experiences? If things weren't as bad as they were, would you have sought out therapy and gained the self-awareness that you have now?
brucethecollie Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 That was heartbreaking to read, AccuTron So, so sorry you went through that. Horrifying not to be able to count on any adult at school or at home in all the ways a child needs.
AccuTron Posted October 10, 2015 Author Posted October 10, 2015 Thanks much Romulox and Collie. Reallllllly is welcome. "As for silver linings, do you think the FDR conversation would have resonated with you had you not gone through everything that you did? Would you be part of the group conversation that may one day save future generations from living through similar experiences? If things weren't as bad as they were, would you have sought out therapy and gained the self-awareness that you have now?" Curious you said that, Romulox, for that thought occurred to me as I finished writing, and I started another topic about family trees, and added the same question you put above, tho' in condensed form. I don't know the answer offhand. But it's perhaps revealing that I felt the question, and you did too. Two other things occur to me: -- the guy who stabbed me with pencils on three different occasions was a best friend. Says a lot! He said that when he grew up he wanted to be a policeman. The next year, different school, I made two other very good male friends, great guys, kind and gentle. I didn't meet them in school, but at a popular business at the time, slot-car racing tracks. Those were very good for male (and a few female) social contact, doing a constructive and imaginative hobby, with the thrill of racing. Too bad the industry priced itself out of existence. -- One day after lunch break, I think I'm age 12, outside one of the doors to hell school that I had to enter, I said silently to myself, with a fair amount of pain, "I will never treat anyone how I'm treated all the time. It hurts too much." I had no idea at the time, but I'd made a real vow, and it would partly define who I would become. 2
Magnetic Synthesizer Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 I'm glad I didn't experience that. *back into my mind* intrsopection > noob environement
Magnetic Synthesizer Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 -- One day after lunch break, I think I'm age 12, outside one of the doors to hell school that I had to enter, I said silently to myself, with a fair amount of pain, "I will never treat anyone how I'm treated all the time. It hurts too much." I had no idea at the time, but I'd made a real vow, and it would partly define who I would become. so lovely 1
Romulox Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Glad we can help! The "would I have found FDR if my history were different?" question is one I can't seem to shake. Part of me thinks that having a rational mind and desire to find the truth will eventually lead you to the same place, while another part thinks that if the exact sequence of events didn't happen just the right way, I would be completely oblivious to this conversation. I'm sure its a combination of the two, though I may be biased towards the latter; it allows me to be more grateful that the events in my life happened the way they did, no matter how pleasant or unpleasant they may have been. Silver linings/gratitude have been a huge focus for me recently. It's really allowed me to bounce back and learn from the big mistakes and life events, while making me realize how much the small problems in life really don't matter in the long run. -- One day after lunch break, I think I'm age 12, outside one of the doors to hell school that I had to enter, I said silently to myself, with a fair amount of pain, "I will never treat anyone how I'm treated all the time. It hurts too much." I had no idea at the time, but I'd made a real vow, and it would partly define who I would become. If I have learned anything from Stef's psychology lessons, almost everyone in this situation would do the exact opposite, and end up projecting those horrible experiences onto the rest of the world. Again I ask, who was the more socially developed person in those schoolyard interactions? 1
AccuTron Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 Glad we can help! ... If I have learned anything from Stef's psychology lessons, almost everyone in this situation would do the exact opposite, and end up projecting those horrible experiences onto the rest of the world. Again I ask, who was the more socially developed person in those schoolyard interactions?
mlsv2f Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 I don't see the rush, kids today are going to live to about 80-100 on average, so what is the gain if they graduate at 17-18? It would appear the downside is much, much steeper than than the upside. If they are that much more advanced than their peers intellectually, it will allow them to maintain high grades and also participate in sports, a job, or other hobbies or interests they may have (maybe ask if they want you involve them in any business or projects you have, or sign up with them to do a hobby they enjoy after school) Personally I enjoyed having a part time job and training in the off season for the sports I played, but everyone is different. Unless they are specifically asking for it because they are highly motivated at a young age, I would let them be and allow them to shine at their own age.
st434u Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Should a prisoner who didn't commit any crimes have their prison sentence reduced by one year?
mlsv2f Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Should a prisoner who didn't commit any crimes have their prison sentence reduced by one year? That's an interesting point to consider, I guess the paradigm we were answering in, was that should we take the prisoner and have him skip a year to be with a class of prisoners, older, more advanced, and bigger than he is. I think you bring up a good discussion though, does anyone have experience with home schooling kids? I am 4-8 years away from kids I would imagine, but none the less, my fiance and I have decided that one of us will stay home with the kids.
dsayers Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 I guess the paradigm we were answering in, was that should we take the prisoner and have him skip a year to be with a class of prisoners, older, more advanced, and bigger than he is. Right. And by engaging in that consideration, you're not engaging in the consideration of whether somebody who has committed no crime should be sent to prison, which came first. Is what I think the point was. It falls under "if they can get you to ask the wrong questions, they don't care what your answers are." In other words, let us instead examine whether it is justifiable to, without the consent of the child, separate them from their parents, put them in the care of people who are paid for with stolen monies, who will only serve to break the will of the child (and escalate in the face of resistance), and won't intervene when their fellow inmates torment them. By doing so, we would actually eliminate the question of whether a child should skip a grade in school or not. When trying to identify the path that is least problematic, it's best to focus on the problem itself rather than one of its symptoms. 1
brucethecollie Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 That's an interesting point to consider, I guess the paradigm we were answering in, was that should we take the prisoner and have him skip a year to be with a class of prisoners, older, more advanced, and bigger than he is. I think you bring up a good discussion though, does anyone have experience with home schooling kids? I am 4-8 years away from kids I would imagine, but none the less, my fiance and I have decided that one of us will stay home with the kids. I homeschool. Actually, I unschool, meaning, there is no imposed structure (plenty of self-imposed structure though). I'm not very experienced as my children are age 6 but I started thinking about children's rights and what is best for them and the reality of how people learn and I recalled how I felt like I was in prison... The issue of sending kids into a possibly harmful territory (older group of kids in a public school setting) is very legit so the discussion about whether it is right or wrong for a child to skip a grade really depends on circumstances. If my kids want to go to college at 16 and are leading that charge, I'm not going to stop them because of their age. But, I'm certainly not going to come up with that idea and try to persuade them on it. 2
tasmlab Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 That's an interesting point to consider, I guess the paradigm we were answering in, was that should we take the prisoner and have him skip a year to be with a class of prisoners, older, more advanced, and bigger than he is. I think you bring up a good discussion though, does anyone have experience with home schooling kids? I am 4-8 years away from kids I would imagine, but none the less, my fiance and I have decided that one of us will stay home with the kids. We homeschool, unschool approach. It's wonderful. My wife and I and our three kids (4, 7 and 10) are together all day. 1
asreon Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 It all mainly depends on what the child wants. If they feel they are ready to move forwards faster than their peers, then they should skip a grade, but only if they think they're up for it. If the parent/s made that choice for them and the child had no say in the matter then they will most likely end up being the one to suffer for that choice, as its not the parents who will be attending school with people (both physically and possibly mentally) more developed.
dsayers Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 It all mainly depends on what the child wants. I agree, but do you see the contradiction? Schools are only in place and continue to exist because what the child wants never enters into it. If we say what happens to the child is their choice, the question evaporates.
Inner Horizon Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 If the parent/s made that choice for them and the child had no say in the matter then they will most likely end up being the one to suffer for that choice, as its not the parents who will be attending school with people (both physically and possibly mentally) more developed. The story of every student attending school. If the parents acknowledge the terrors of the education system or at least the emotions of their child attending school then it just comes down to "Do not do to others what you wouldn't like done to you". Students are forced to attend some form of education if they like it or not by the state, the most any loving parent could do is to protect their child and devote themselves to the child's learning and happiness. To go unschooled instead of shoving them into the indoctrination conveyor belt of the government education system where the parents lose all control over what happens to their child during the six hour time span of the school day.
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