The truth about Santa Claus.

[Tyne]

Its almost the holiday season again, and so begins this endless debate on the value and virtue of Christmas. A bit of back story:

 

My husband is Jewish but his family is not particularly religious. They still celebrats certain Jewish holidays like Passover, I think mostly because of family tradition and less often now that his grandmother has passed away.

I come from a non-practicing Catholic family that enjoyed celebrating the Christian holidays (i.e. Christmas and Easter) without having to go to church or pray or learn much about the Jesus myths. I have very fond memories of Santa and Easter and even (to a lesser extent) the tooth fairy. I was not devastated to discover over time that Santa, the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy did not exist. Though, I hear for some kids there was devastating confusion and grief.

 

Obviously, I am wildly enthusiastic about celebrating the holidays, especially now that I have a child myself. But I keep waffling between telling my son Santa (and the others) is real and being completely honest from the start and tell him that other kids believe but it isn't true. Or try some sort of middle ground, where I tell him I'm pretending Santa is real and that its a game we play every year.

 

My husband never had to deal with this kind of thing as a kid. He can't seem to empathize or understand my nostalgia. He respects that this is important to me, but finds the whole thing frivolous. Even the fact that you put nice paper around something to give to someone, only to crumple it up and throw it away is an interesting perspective I never considered until he pointed it out.

 

I hate the idea of lying to my son. Particularly if there is no practical gain for him other than "the magic" of it all. Even though I had only positive memories of this, and my husband has no personal experience and only cynicism, my question is:

 

Is it morally wrong to convince children magical entities exist and then admin the truth when they are older or when they demand the truth? Is this form of lying abusive (even if you reject the "naughty or nice" aspect)? Is it more enjoyable to believe in Santa or does it detract from the experience to play pretend?

 

I'm sure this question must have come up in the past so I'm sorry if it's an annoyingly repetitive question. I'd love to be directed to any resources out there. I want to hear your thoughts and childhood experiences too of course.

 

Thank you.

[brucethecollie]

I've struggled with this in the past...what I've done is to not confirm or deny the santa claus story.  So my kids obviously picked up on it without me introducing it and they asked me 2 years ago when they were 4, "Is Santa, real?"  I said, "What do you think?"  My son said, "It doesn't make any sense, but I would like it to be real!"  My daughter said, "Umm...sure, I say it's real!"  

 

Cut 2 years, I never told them my opinion on Santa, I overheard them having a conversation like this last week:

 

"Do you think Santa exists?" 

 

"No, nobody has any proof!"

 

"Yeah, the story doesn't make any sense!"

 

"It's fun, though!"

 

"Yeah, it's like all our other pretend stories we like!"

 

So it turned out to be very little struggle in the end which is a relief to me. 

[Tyne]

Brucethecollie, that's fantastic! it sounds like you successfully circumnavigated allowing your kids to think for themselves and having fun with the myth! That's very inspiring.

[dsayers]

Is it morally wrong to convince children magical entities exist and then admin the truth when they are older or when they demand the truth?

 

I would say yes. A child comes into the world unable to survive in it on their own. The ability to differentiate fact from fiction is an essential characteristic for survival.

 

You can still play Santa though. Just double check to make sure they understand it's not real and just something people do for fun.

 

I think the more challenging question would be how to handle having a child who is aware Santa is fantasy but might play with children who think it is real. Obviously you don't want to model for the child erasing one's self for the preferences of others. Or for that matter, how damaging is it to conflate having stuff with happiness? I'm assuming that in a loving househould, the joy of receiving new stuff wouldn't compare to the joy of having a loving, rational family, and therefore not at risk of fostering addiction or becoming materialistic. I digress.

[A4E]

I have been wondering if it is good training for children to be exposed to this lie when they are young, so that it will be easier for them to spot much bigger lies later in life.

 

Is there any correlation between the exposure and subsequent reveal of the santa claus hoax, and the shift from religion to atheism in the western world?  I have not heard of any muslim world where they teach their children a lie on purpose, for then to reveal it later or let them figure it out themselves.

 

Deceit is a potentially very costly and harmful ordeal to go through. Most people on this planet do indeed go through life in deceit to varying degrees. Exposing your children to a harmless deceit might actually then turn out to be a great idea.

 

Perhaps I would still believe humans are destroying the world with plant food, and that humans have been on the moon, and that there are no cures for cancer, and many other lies, had I not been told that a mysterious creature called Santa delivered all the presents.

[Torero]

brucethecollie, I very much agree with Tyne. Excellent education and inspiring work.

Nailed the case in the first reaction.

PS: it is said that the name Santa Claus comes from Sinterklaas, the Dutch "predecessor" of the red-and-white saint of North America and later the world.
Sinterklaas is every year a big topic, not only because of the unique Dutch tradition left, but also because of the various cultural-marxist "anti-racist" (while pointing at race all the time; irrational cause Black Pete is from Italian chimney cleaner origin...) leeches who want to destroy a nice tradition. Not meant as digression from the topic, just some background.


http://www.thejournal.ie/arrests-black-pete-1782379-Nov2014/

Note the laissez faire reaction of "Sinterklaas" himself at the end.

[brucethecollie]

I have been wondering if it is good training for children to be exposed to this lie when they are young, so that it will be easier for them to spot much bigger lies later in life.

 

Is there any correlation between the exposure and subsequent reveal of the santa claus hoax, and the shift from religion to atheism in the western world?  I have not heard of any muslim world where they teach their children a lie on purpose, for then to reveal it later or let them figure it out themselves.

 

Deceit is a potentially very costly and harmful ordeal to go through. Most people on this planet do indeed go through life in deceit to varying degrees. Exposing your children to a harmless deceit might actually then turn out to be a great idea.

 

Perhaps I would still believe humans are destroying the world with plant food, and that humans have been on the moon, and that there are no cures for cancer, and many other lies, had I not been told that a mysterious creature called Santa delivered all the presents.

That's a very interesting thought.  I remember vividly, how I felt when I learned there was no Santa.  I thought back to the times I was told by many adults that he absolutely was real and felt they had lost credibility with me and from that day on I was on my guard when it came to things adults told me were true.  I became a real pain at home, questioning everything and demanding evidence for things.  On the other hand, most kids I grew up with are perfectly happy with religion and they too discovered Santa didn't exist at some point.  I grew up with parents that didn't make a big deal about Santa though and so many kids had parents that would go to great lengths to provide evidence for Santa's existence. 

[AccuTron]

Go Brucethecollie for always asking for the evidence.

 

The late sixties and early seventies were a time of tremendous upheaval in Western Civ.  Part of that was religious cults, which still exist, but are much more low key, usually.  We're talking about serious mind control, semi-starvation and sleep deprivation, absconding with all property, etc.  Not just a few people having loud prayers.  

 

I knew nothing of this, was socially backwards and a real innocent, and one day visiting a friend in Atlanta...Atlanta is regional HQ for lots of stuff...and with a few other co-travelers, walked unknowingly (just another white frame house on a Peachtree) into the regional HQ of the #3 religious cult in the US at the time, called Children Of God.  (That name has been used by many others, be not confused, tho' I wouldn't trust any of them.)  

 

It was started by one David Berg, aka Moses David, who was a scoundrel (my mother had a friend who dated him in NYC).  At some point, I saw their insider-only literature promoting Gaddafi as the Messiah (sent a letter to the FBI about that), but that is years later with yet more harrowing adventure.

 

I estimated 130+ people in that one house, virtually all were essentially runaways, virtually kidnapped, except the few managers/handlers, and likely their parents didn't even know where they were (I would learn later).  

 

They sucked in this one guy, then they went for his girlfriend Nancy, my sister's best friend.  They couldn't have Nancy, dammit!!!  Alone on this mortal plane, I faced off against this monstrous entity over three days of various encounters, Nancy in the middle.  They'd work in shifts, I couldn't.  Some of the things that occurred over those days scared me like I'd never been scared before.

 

Someplace near the beginning of what would become a huge struggle, being bombarded by their "logic", I recalled having been in Catholic school, and having to learn that so much was BS (somebody ask me about the starfish incident).  I distinctly recall using those childhood lessons as a tool in my struggle against the COG.  So I agree with those who say Santa gives a child warning that all is not kosher.

 

(Nancy did not join, but it was a decision made at the very last moment, deciding to get into a taxi to the airport, or not.  That was a cliffhanger!  I've rarely been that relieved about anything.)

[Koroviev]

As my wife and I are getting ready for our first child this is definitely something we've been discussing as well. Going into it we know one thing for certain, we do not want to have to lie to our kids. So the question then becomes can you have a "magical" christmas without lying about santa. At least to us this seems like it would be very doable simply by focusing on family rather than bribing our child to behave so presents will magically appear (or they'll get to go to heaven). Why does there need to be a "real" santa at all? It can still be a wonderful story, and if you want, they can get just as many presents as everyone else just from their parents. It also seems like it would make the holiday less stressful since there'd be less sneaking around playing santa.

 

I do like your strategy though, Brucethecollie, because everything is way better if they come to the conclusion themselves.

[Tyne]

Brucethecollie, it seems to me like your kids, particularly as they grew older, have a healthy established criticism of the world. They don't sound like the type of people to just go along with whatever; and they're not afraid to ask an adult to cut the crap.

Some kids are more susceptible to magical thinking and have trouble distinguishing really from imagination. I suspect these kids need to be checked in with more frequently than the naturally skeptical kids.

 

However, if the child has a grasp on deductive reasoning, I doubt the training for being lied to or tricked is really necessary. I wouldn't put my kids' trust in me at risk by simulating what they might encounter in the world; that seems like it would have the opposite intended effect. If they were to encounter frauds and liars or just plain deluded people in the real world, I would hope that it would give them pause enough to ask what was going on.

 

Brucethecollie, is this what you experienced? You said your kids picked up on it without your help. My husband and I are really curious about this scenario. Did you have to explain things in the context of "supposedly" or "some people say..." Did your kids have interest in what your beliefs were? Did you manage to avoid this?

[dsayers]

Some kids are more susceptible to magical thinking and have trouble distinguishing really from imagination. I suspect these kids need to be checked in with more frequently than the naturally skeptical kids.

 

This makes it sound like a luck of the draw, but I don't think that is the case. From an evolution standpoint, we benefit more from being able to differentiate real from imaginary. Imagination is beneficial in exploring what might be possible in reality. As we develop, we discard that which is no longer useful to us. Such as the ability to filter out acknowledging fabric against your skin or that a monster will eat you if your turn the lights out.

 

If there were two kids the same age and one seemed more susceptible to magical thinking and the other appeared to be "naturally" skeptical, I bet you'd find a different level of involvement and integrity between the parents. I think the distinction is helpful not only because it holds those who are responsible accountable, but it also helps to demonstrate exactly why the things you're considering are so important

[mahayana]

Its almost the holiday season again, and so begins this endless debate on the value and virtue of Christmas. A bit of back story:

 

My husband is Jewish but his family is not particularly religious. They still celebrats certain Jewish holidays like Passover, I think mostly because of family tradition and less often now that his grandmother has passed away.

I come from a non-practicing Catholic family that enjoyed celebrating the Christian holidays (i.e. Christmas and Easter) without having to go to church or pray or learn much about the Jesus myths. I have very fond memories of Santa and Easter and even (to a lesser extent) the tooth fairy. I was not devastated to discover over time that Santa, the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy did not exist. Though, I hear for some kids there was devastating confusion and grief.

 

Obviously, I am wildly enthusiastic about celebrating the holidays, especially now that I have a child myself. But I keep waffling between telling my son Santa (and the others) is real and being completely honest from the start and tell him that other kids believe but it isn't true. Or try some sort of middle ground, where I tell him I'm pretending Santa is real and that its a game we play every year.

 

My husband never had to deal with this kind of thing as a kid. He can't seem to empathize or understand my nostalgia. He respects that this is important to me, but finds the whole thing frivolous. Even the fact that you put nice paper around something to give to someone, only to crumple it up and throw it away is an interesting perspective I never considered until he pointed it out.

 

I hate the idea of lying to my son. Particularly if there is no practical gain for him other than "the magic" of it all. Even though I had only positive memories of this, and my husband has no personal experience and only cynicism, my question is:

 

Is it morally wrong to convince children magical entities exist and then admin the truth when they are older or when they demand the truth? Is this form of lying abusive (even if you reject the "naughty or nice" aspect)? Is it more enjoyable to believe in Santa or does it detract from the experience to play pretend?

 

I'm sure this question must have come up in the past so I'm sorry if it's an annoyingly repetitive question. I'd love to be directed to any resources out there. I want to hear your thoughts and childhood experiences too of course.

 

Thank you.

I also struggled with this one as well! I finally decided that I couldn't go through with lying to my child. Our entire relationship is built on honesty and trust, telling her a lie would be contrary to that no matter how good my intentions were. I was worried that no Santa would detract from the magic but it hasn't. I really think the magic is in the toys under the tree, the lights, decorations, desserts, music, etc...

We still have Santa decorations and my six year old usually does a photo with him since we aren't anti-Santa or anything! It's a fun fairy tale just like with the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy.

 

Last Christmas when my daughter was five, I asked her if she wished I had told her Santa was real. She said no, she's glad she knows the truth  because it would've been really sad to find out later that he wasn't real. I think she would be really offended at having been lied to so I have no regrets. She's also been really great at keeping it hush hush around other kids that do believe.

[regevdl]

I come from almost the same background.  My hubby is Israeli Jew....more traditional, non religious. however I grew up in a strict Roman Catholic background.  We raised our children in the US from birth for a few years and then moved to Israel.  So it's been interesting in how to tackle these issue and there is NO handbook for it.  lol

 

We celebrate Christmas (my fellow Jewish villagers LOVE it).  I do the lights and trees and the whole bit.  I even have a Morrocan Jewish Santa! lol  

 

We do it as a tradition.  I tell stories and remind them (as I do throughout their lives) about generocity, how to give but also how to receive (believe me...some people need to learn how to receive.  Either they feel they don't deserve or they aren't appreciative enough) so it's a good celebration to sort of reward them of these moral teachings throughout the year.  We do random acts of kindness a few times during the year, but mostly for the month of December. So I think it's all in the approach.  Have fun, enjoy, it's ok to celebrate by turning it into whatever theme you want.  My kids know the story of Jesus and I tell him I don't even know if he's real.  Maybe he was a real guy but nonetheless, if a guy like that existed, we can repeat some of his philosophies that were really virtuous.  And we go into specifics and examples.  

 

We have Santa.  I don't say he's real.  I don't say he's not real.  I let them enjoy and have fun.  WHEN my son (he's older) begins to question, I allow him and I answer him honestly.  But instead of him asking, is santa real and I say no.  I make it a critical thinking exercise.  

 

I ask him...do you have doubts?  What do you observe that makes you think he's real/not real.  etc.  He knows the story of Santa's flying sleigh and so we talk about if that could be fantasy or if that could actually happen knowing the technology that exists, etc.  

 

I have found this approach fun, exciting and comforting because I don't want to lead my kids on AND be the bearer of disappointment, etc.  that's heartbreaking.  so this way, they find the truth out with my facilitation and in the end they are so proud of themselves and I of them.  It's like a mental scavenger hunt for lack of better term.  

 

I don't want him to know /believe what is real or not based on me saying yes or no.  I want him to feel comfortable making observations, asking questions, analyzing, etc and coming to the conclusion in such a way so he can have experience and practice as a child for when he becomes an adult because as an adult, the state will try to replace me in his mind and if the state tells him what is real or not, he will hopefully still question since that was familiar to him in a loving way and experience as a child.

[brucethecollie]

I totally agree with regevdl and love all she had to say.

 

I find that because i've taught my kids basic stuff (including critical thinking), they have the info they need to figure things out themselves.  For example, they did notice that all the Santa books at the library were in the "fiction" section- and I taught them to know the difference between fiction and non fiction.  They also asked if children without enough food got toys or food from Santa, which has to do with an awareness of how others live.  My son at some point was trying to figure out how Santa got in and he asked if Santa possibly evaporated outside our door and condensed inside the house.  My daughter is aware of how many hours it would take to travel halfway around the world and so Santa visiting everyone on one night was a red flag for her.