"8 Ways Men Don't Realize They Are Subtly Shaming Women"

[guitarhack]

Hi FDR Community,

 

Does this article have any merit? What are your thoughts?

 

http://www.bustle.com/articles/115512-8-ways-men-dont-realize-they-are-subtly-shaming-women

 

Thanks!

[AccuTron]

Actually, it's a pretty valid list.

 

 

LATER EDIT:  I first took it as surface, about the level of intrigue as a bar drink coaster.  But I see by reading other posts that I missed some things.

 

One comment by Frosty:  "and cowardice is almost always unique to women."

​I have recently pondered this.  Women are the breeders, and anything mysterious or not understood, in the natural world, meant a hidden cougar or poison plants, something dangerous, and so the womb bearers are programmed to run away.  Like a girl.

 

I have found it sooooo irritating to talk to women in general, they simply cannot, not, not, not, handle new information, no matter how blatantly obviously true.  Not when her ego is anyway involved.  (And ego is a way of saying the organism's total sense of self as perceived.)  Doesn't matter if a fancy career is slapped around the outside, it's a girl in the core.  They will run.  Make a face, maybe call a name, and run away.

 

 

(Another FDR poster someplace made mention of how few females are here in these forums, both blessing the ones that show up, and highlighting the larger number that don't.)

 

The creator of Dilbert found this to be a usefully universal truth:   Imgur: Dilbert your facts  (Notice the common female trick of accusing the messenger of owning or creating the facts, then attacking the messenger, so as not to address the facts themselves.)

 

 

Karen Straughn/GirlWritesWhat addressed this.  "Emotional basket cases" I think she said.   And reported that decent women years ago, who weren't like that, fully recognized that most women ARE like that, and were wary of universal women suffrage.

 

(Additional reasons were given, such as women's limited access to info to begin with, back in the day.  I know one woman, successful nurse, has the internet at her fingertips, yet doesn't research anything, watches mainstream news and goes to someone now and then "for a reading."  I've been meaning to ask if that means putting tea leaves on the palm of her hand.  Thinks men shouldn't defend themselves against female assailants.  Yeah, well, if someone starts shooting in a theater, stop your own bullets, ya' blankety blank, it's not gonna be me being a shield.)

 

 

FeminismLOL, another online woman with honesty, used the video title "Women Are Navel Gazing Morons."  Not PC is it?  But I see it endlessly in real life, cringe at the thought of honestly engaging most females in intellectual discussion.  Even smart ones, there's a place she'll cringe, you just have to find it, something tied to her ego. I think that's also evolution, the most egotistical females force their way to the center of the herd/tribe, and when food is low, their babies live, and the less pushy females have their babies die.  Nature, ain't she sweet?  So women in general are literally mortally afraid to admit being wrong, got programmed that way.  

[guitarhack]

Brace yourselves - a rebuttal is coming!

Yesss!!

[brucethecollie]

To me, this list is taking a slanted approach...an attitude of "I'm going to take offense".  So instead of communicating in an open, thoughtful way, it's very self-righteous and as usual, taking the liberty of speaking for all females.  

[Koroviev]

Meh, it seems to me like another way to put men and women at odds through political correctness. It does not leave any room for women to be mistaken and places all of the fault on men even though it's easy to see that women do a lot of these same things (usually more often than men). Like most other things these days it sets a double standard where it's ok for one group (women) to do something but as soon as another group (men) does that same thing it's bad and negative toward the first group.

 

Rules to live by

(AKA how I interpret this article)

1. Don't compliment women on being better than other women

2. Don't criticize your female friends' choices (especially relating to clothing choices!)

3. Don't criticize female strangers' choices (especially relating to clothing choices!)

4. Gender biased language is bad! (especially when it refers to women)

5. If someone interrupts (or corrects) a woman they think what that woman saying is worthless

6. Women are allowed to think some things about their bodies are unpleasant but men are not

7. Donald Trump is a jerk for calling Hillary shrill

8. Gender biased language is derogatory to women, even when it's referring to men

[shirgall]

Versus all the ways people are openly shaming males?

[Donnadogsoth]

Hi FDR Community,

 

Does this article have any merit? What are your thoughts?

 

http://www.bustle.com/articles/115512-8-ways-men-dont-realize-they-are-subtly-shaming-women

 

Thanks!

 

1. Or, women can't handle the idea of type and playing against it.

2. Or, the male instinct to be protective of women should be erased (along with men).

3. Or, men's preferences in women, such as women who aren't more likely to have a disease or be unfaithful, are unmentionable.

4. Or, the word "dick" is used to show that being masculine is pushy and irritating.

5. Or, women can use some of that self-assertion and positivity training and speak up for themselves when they're interrupted by dicks.

6. Or, let's all talk about taking a dump.

7. Or, let's let hysterical people be hysterical.

8. Or, shaming men is now "misogynistic".

[Will Torbald]

Hi FDR Community,

 

Does this article have any merit? What are your thoughts?

 

http://www.bustle.com/articles/115512-8-ways-men-dont-realize-they-are-subtly-shaming-women

 

Thanks!

 

The title says "subtly shaming" so, it would have to prove that the thought they are proposing are merely "subtle", and belong in shame.

 

1 - Compliments That Come At The Expense Of Other Women: Subtle shaming of women as a collective.

2 - Concern trolling: Subtle shaming of their personal choices of wardrobe and other decisions.

3 - Slut-shaming strangers: Literally shaming, and by association. If one woman is a slut for doing that, this other woman is too if she does it.

4 - Gendered language for what's good and bad: Use of "pussy" and "man up" to shame people. It's subtle and shaming, too.

5 - Speaking over women: Yeah, subtle way of shaming her speech. Perhaps more than subtle.

6 - Gross stuff: Still in the realm of shaming women for their natural processes. Some are gross, I get it, but overreacting is the problem.

7 - Overemotional: It is a shame tactic, and it is subtle. Sometimes the anger is justified, and maybe sometimes it isn't.

8 - Feminine men: Another way to shame men by comparing them with women.

 

So they set out to list out subtleties, and they listed subtleties. They wanted to address gendered shaming, and they did. By these standards the article has merit in what it wanted to say. Why they want to do it? In order to change the culture from the inside and to make people more feminist. Is it a big deal though? No. There are bigger problems with women in the real world to worry about this as if it were a strong priority. Which is why conservative media lambasts the liberals for articles like these while staying silent about actual misogyny and violence towards women. It feels like misdirection and completely unnecessary theatrics if you are truly concerned about women's issues.

[guitarhack]

1. Or, women can't handle the idea of type and playing against it.

2. Or, the male instinct to be protective of women should be erased (along with men).

3. Or, men's preferences in women, such as women who aren't more likely to have a disease or be unfaithful, are unmentionable.

4. Or, the word "dick" is used to show that being masculine is pushy and irritating.

5. Or, women can use some of that self-assertion and positivity training and speak up for themselves when they're interrupted by dicks.

6. Or, let's all talk about taking a dump.

7. Or, let's let hysterical people be hysterical.

8. Or, shaming men is now "misogynistic".

*slow clap*

 

*standing ovation*

 

*several tears shed due to sheer amazement at a spot-on analysis*

[McBeer]

Is this list to be read with the assumption that shaming is always bad no matter what?

 

People should be ashamed of themselves when exhibiting shameful behavior.

 

...or they are ashamed of themselves already, but want us to let them ignore their well deserved shame.

[Koroviev]

[regevdl]

Well. to a small credit they did mention it goes both ways.  However all was fogged with these 'microaggressions' claims ....the ones they claim women feel.  I cannot speak for the microaggressions towards men or how men experience them.  

 

I mean can't we sum this up in....ALL VERBAL ABUSE AGAINST ANYONE IS REALLY DOUCHEY (oopss...microaggression) DICKISH (oopsy...there I go again)....SHITTY (there we go!)  BEHAVIOR.  

 

why the need to slice and dice it?  I'm actually in the middle of listening to  the podcast discussing the N word.  I don't say it  and don't understand why the black community use it, even if it 'friendly context'. and other people can do what they want and use it in their group...but I'm just not a fan of name calling or using those types of 'slang'.  I had female friends who would 'affectionately or ironically call me a slut when they were upset with me or bitch.  like Hey bitch...what's up.   And I just sort of grew up and realized..... even if it's in a jovial context.... it's still verbal slander and gross to hear.  I don't want to normalize hearing that word (as others, etc)

 

If my husband or any guy says what I am wearing looks slutty...i will BELIEVE them.  it's hard for a woman who has Hollywood as a cultural cue to objectively define what flatters her body and is tasteful without crossing over into slutsville.

 

and woman can be so increcdibly catty.not all of them...but some.  meaning, if you have a friend who sort of resents you (they envy your body/personality, etc) they will encourage you to do destructive behavior because 'girlfriends yo!~'  If you are wearing something ugly or unflattering, they will be your 'bestie' and use your trust of them to convince you it's fine.  And this isn't just about clothes....taste in men, etc.  it's incredibly destructive.  I've had 'friends' like that and took the garbage out more than 15 years ago and my friends now are GOLD and honest and really out for my best interest.

 

They won't give you good wardrobe advice as a form of contempt.  Women who say...that looks slutty when the 'shoe fits' ARE being a responsible friend.  A man who does that is being a responsible male because men know what is tasteful and attractive and know what is slutty and they know other guys that know the difference and if it's indeed slutty, they know guys who are drawn to that.  

 

It doesn't make slut-seekers right but it's just a filter tool.  I see too many woman who like to lure in those creeps and then get all flabbergasted that they have to fight so hard to get respect from men.  It's like.  you don't need to dress like a nun to be sexy and still attract quality men who aren't predatory.  

 

I agree that any human (male or female) that has an irrational negative reactions towards bodily functions is immature.  I know women too who think their body functions are gross and 'unnatural'.  I mean if they were proud of their natural womanly figures, bleaching (of unmentionable areas) and nips and tucks and removal and augmentations etc wouldn't be a lucritive industry. 

Women getting C-Sections so they don't 'tear up' their vajayjays.  etc.  refuse to breastfeed so they don't destroy their breasts, etc.  An ex friend of mine was pregnant and her mother refused to be present because it' grossed her out'.  I'm like....whaaaa???   Yes...you read that correctly.  A woman who gave birth is grossed out by her daughter giving birth.  I'll let you all guess what the daughter (who was giving birth) also thinks about the birth process.... hint.  the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.

 

OMG.  I live in a freaking tiny ass village in Israel and I farm with my hubby.  I drive the tractor and these old fashioned old timers' jaw drops on the floor.  i"m hurling huge watermelons (actual fruit...not my body parts lol) and the Arabs can hardly focus on their job (as their women stick to more 'womenly jobs').  So when someone tells me 'for a woman..you do ....xyz well..."  TAKE THE DAMN COMPLIMENT.  It makes me even more proud as a woman.   I mean isn't them recognizing that you can do as well or better than a man exactly what these freak-show femenists wanted all along?  Admission that we are capable of achieving the same things?!  And then when they hear men admitting that, with the intention of a compliment these bitches (I can say that because I'm a woman...see how that works? lol) ...can't even take the compliment!  ARgh...

 

 

<rant over>

[Donnadogsoth]

*slow clap*

 

*standing ovation*

 

*several tears shed due to sheer amazement at a spot-on analysis*

 

I appreciate that, guitarhack.

[Frosty]

I went through this article and basically destroyed all the points one at a time. It just highlights how modern 3rd wave feminism is so fundamentally detached from reality, there's an awful lot of denial of the biological realities that exist between males and females, denial of science and rational thinking and also a prevalence of expectations that people all behave in ways which protect the sensitive emotions of women, there's this implicit suggestion that it's some kind of crime to say something, express an opinion or even infer something that might lead to emotional distress of a woman. We saw this all culminate recently at the UN with Ms Sarkeesian and Ms Quinn where we're seeing it suggested that cyberbullying (that is text transmitted over the internet) is as bad as physical violence and how can we work to essentially eliminate this, a disgusting attempt to erode free speech.

 

Anyway my comments are below.

 

1. Compliments That Come At The Expense Of Other Women

“I didn’t expect a girl to be very good at this, but you’re doing great.”

 

In many cases sexual dimorphism makes men and women better at certain tasks, if you have good reason to believe that a woman might be bad or below average at a task because sex is a factor in competence at the task, then it's normal to be surprised when that person shows greater than average skill at it.

 

2. Concern Trolling

"For example, if a man tells a woman that he’s concerned about the way she’s dressed on the pretense that “I’m just worried that other guys will get the wrong idea,” what he’s really doing is slut-shaming her. He's drawing attention to her (from his point of view) promiscuous clothing on the pretense that he’s trying to protect her. That’s patronizing and rude."

 

Studies especially in cases of sexual assault and rape show that women dressed more promiscuous ways draws greater attention to them by sexual predators and so it's only rational to have more concern for someone who is at a greater risk of sexual assault. These kind of statistics are often dismissed by feminists as victim blaming, they're so fast to react against any kind of suggestion that they change their behaviour to improve their safety that they ignore the facts and deny reality.

 

3. Slut-Shaming Strangers

"So if a guy tells his female friends that other girls look “slutty,” or insults someone (even a celebrity or a fictional character) for being what he sees as “promiscuous,” he’s implicitly saying “And if you do that, I’ll think you’re slutty, too.” Regardless of its intended target, slut-shaming tells women as a whole that their value is contingent on their sexual conduct (real or assumed), that their sexuality is shameful, and that other people have the right to judge them for what they do with their own bodies."

 

Actually everyone has the right to judge others based on any criteria they see fit and they also have the right to freedom of speech to convey that judgement to whoever they please. If a man has a criteria for women, e.g that she not wear X or he think she's slutty, then that's his personal judgement, he has every right to make that judgement. What this amounts to is what a lot of the modern 3rd wave feminism amounts to, and that's no one is allowed to have an opinion that upsets someone else, because being upset is the same as physically being beaten (read up on the recent UN findings on this, sarkeesian, zoe quin, et al). And guess what, women judge men, they judge us on things like our shoes, whether we're funny or not, and they're perfectly within their right to make those judgements and perfectly within their right to voice that opinion to other people, and I defend this right irrelevant of gender, so do most people as it's one of the pillars of modern society.

 

4. Using Gendered Language To Describe What Is Good And Bad

"How many times have all of us heard the word “pussy” used to describe someone — male or female — as weak? Or conversely, the phrase “man up” to push someone into being strong or brave? This kind of language is so deeply ingrained in our culture that a lot of people — men and women — use it all the time without thinking about its implications for gender and worth. But when we use words like these, even in jest, we’re perpetuating the cultural standard that femininity is weak, undesirable, and bad."

 

Again, humans are a sexually dimorphic species, the men and women have very obvious differences when aggregated across the population so much so that things like greater upper body strength is almost always unique to men and cowardice is almost always unique to women. I'm a 6'1" man who most women would be extremely quick to avoid getting into any kind of physical altercation with for very good reasons. And guess what It's mainly the men who step in when it's time for a fight, time to do any kind of protecting, we're the people who get the rat or spider out the house. And there's good and rational reasons for this caused by evolutionary history, in partners where women looked after children and men protected them both they had greater chances for survival and thus passing on the genes for women to avoid conflict and men to embrace it. Like it or not femininity is associated with being weak in certain specific ways, but it's also associated with attractiveness, gentleness, empathy, loving, caring, these are all things that are rationally tied to femininity for the same reasons cowardice and weakness are.

 

5. Speaking Over Or Interrupting Women
"Research has shown that women tend to be interrupted more often than men, and when they do speak frequently (especially in professional situations), they’re often perceived negatively for it. “Manterrupting” may be an awkward term, but it’s a real thing. Most men probably don’t even realize they’re doing it, but when they routinely interrupt or speak over the women around them, they’re sending the message that these women don’t have the right to speak — and even worse, that what they have to say is worthless."

 

Testosterone makes men more assertive, that's why we're more assertive in negotiating raises for pay and a whole slew of other things, again sexual dimorphism. The perception that women don't have the right to speak or what they have to say is worthless is an issue of perception that exists inside the mind. Female brains are faster to react with emotions rather than with logic which again is just a biological reality, it's not mens fault that when you interupt us we can handle that without having a mental breakdown but when the reverse occurs your self worth plummets.

 

6. Acting Like Menstruation, Pregnancy, And Childbirth Are OMG SO HORRIFIC

"Look, I get it. Some aspects of the human body are squicky. But when guys freak out at the mention of tampons, pregnancy issues, or having babies, the message they’re sending is that the female body is disgusting. I’m not saying that dudes need to know every detail of their lady friends’ periods, but the “EWW GROSS” reaction shames women for their natural biological processes, perpetuating the feeling among women that they have to keep these aspects of themselves hidden. Women shouldn’t have to feel ashamed or embarrassed about completely normal aspects of their reproductive health."

 

Now re-read that above statement and replace female bodily issues with gender neutral issues like having to take a shit, everything is exactly true about that but it's perfectly normal and understood that no one wants to see that because we're bioloigically repulsed by it, and that's perfectly normal. Again this speaks not to problems that men cause but rather the ability of women to see the world with a clear perception that's not blurred with emotional irrationality. If you feel bad because someone reacts to something in a way that is bioloigically pre determined then that's a mental issue inside your own head you need to tackle and not something the rest of us need to tip toe around.

 

7. Telling A Woman She’s Being Shrill Or Overemotional
"When a woman is angry or upset, a common response is that she’s being too sensitive, hysterical, or melodramatic (or worse, that she’s “just being hormonal”). These kinds of comments invalidate and shame a woman for her emotional responses. The men who say this stuff might simply be trying to diffuse a tense situation, but the message they’re sending is that a woman’s emotions are illogical or simply not real — and that they therefore shouldn’t be taken seriously."

 

Again the thought that men are implying the emotions aren't real is an issue with female perception and not male intent. The problem is that the world is a rational place and when you're in a discussion or more likely an argument  in this circumstance then you cannot argue facts and logic and make rational arguments with irrational emotion. Bridges don't stand up to the immense forces acting on them because it would be upsetting if it all collapsed and being upset is a valid emotion to have. They act in ways which we've logically established through being rational and studying and understand reality, there is a time and a place to discuss emotions but when you're in a rational discussion then emotions are irrelevant. If you don't like being told that fact then it would behove women to avoid rational discussion when you're incapable of being rational, it's kind of like starting a game of chess with someone and then making the argument you can move all your pieces like the queen because you'd be upset otherwise, no one who is interested in chess wants to play with someone who can simply do whatever they like because they feel like it, in the same way people interested in rational discussion don't want to deal with someone who is incapable in that moment of being rational.

 

8. Shaming Men For Being "Feminine"

"In our culture, one of the most common and severe ways one can insult a man is to tell him that he’s acting like a girl — that he’s weak, emotional, prissy, or feminine. That kind of attitude is incredibly damaging to men and boys, holding them to a standard of culturally constructed masculinity that punishes any type of deviation. Too often, men are told that their worth depends on how well they can conform to masculine ideals, and that stereotypically “feminine” behaviors therefore devalue them."

 

Insults really just fall under freedom of speech, so not hard to debunk this. But to reiterate, humans are sexually dimorphic and not only does that mean men and women are different in some very fundamental ways (on average), but also the things we value are also wildly different, and generally speaking men value having masculine traits and women value having feminine traits and that's a biological reality that comes from evolving to adopt these beneficial roles. Men like it when they act masculine and don't like it when they're treated as feminine, and the same is generally true when flipped on to women, most women do not like to be treated as if they have masculine traits, if we accused a woman of "thinking with her dick" for example (in reference to being promiscuous due to bioloigical reality) then that's something she'd almost certainly be defensive about, because males tend to be promiscuous and females much less so. If you told a woman she had a manly jaw, manly arms, a chest like a young boy, all these things would diminish her femininity and almost universally cause offence.

[David Ottinger]

Hi FDR Community,

 

Does this article have any merit? What are your thoughts?

 

http://www.bustle.com/articles/115512-8-ways-men-dont-realize-they-are-subtly-shaming-women

 

Thanks!

 

 

If I hadn't already been exposed to the SJW madness out there, I would've thought it was from the Onion.  Does this sort of stuff really deserve a rebuttal?  I don't think so, but I'm happy to poke fun at it:

 

For now on...

 

(1) I vow to make every girl feel like she's like every other girl I've met;

 

(2) I vow to never question a woman's telepathy, especially when it comes to knowing how other men might perceive her actions; 

 

(3) I vow to recognize how gullible women are, and thus will do everything in my power to edify their inherent princess qualities and with blind devotion;

 

(4) I vow to edify the female fantasy to be just like men and treat her like the beastly savage she is -- I know this contradicts number 3, but see number 5 for clarity;

 

(5) I vow to treat every woman's words as though it's a form of abstract art and I will stand amazed at her creativity with logic and reason;

 

(6) I vow to embrace a woman's biological purgative qualities by naming each dead egg and lighting a candle for going out like Braveheart, "FREEDOM!";

 

(7) I vow to take women seriously  (Phew! Almost violated the 1st rule here.); and,

 

(8) I vow to tap into and embrace my oppressed femininity so that I may realize just how misogynistic every masculine thing I do actually is.

[john cena]

Is it not inherently sexist that she wrote this article about micro aggression and left out any instance of it happening against men?
 

Can these women really not see the hypocrisy here? 

 

Aggression: hostile or violent behavior or attitudes toward another;

Another case of propaganda adding a prefix to a word and taking all negative connotations of the original word except without any of the actual meaning, in order to attack the opposite gender. If that's not sexist, then sexism doesn't exist. 

[regevdl]

I wanted to vote 'Up" Frosty but seems I met my daily limit but well done on your rebuttal.  The voting is weird because I think I only voted up on one other thread....so.... we get a 2 vote/day ration?  Anywho....

 

I'll add one more to my 'rant' above... if women don't want to be called 'moody' then they have GOT to stop with, "oh.....I ate a box of cookies because I'm PMSing"  or  "I'm PMS'ing therefore...."  They open the door on this double standard.  I'm a woman and here is how I handle it:

 

Yes.  I PMS, yes I get bloated and fat and have body pains during that time.  It's uncomfortable, makes me feel very self conscious which has an outward affect on my behavior.  I become AWARE of that and try to control it the best I can.  If I feel I cannot control it and am effecting the people around me negatively (which rarely happens or I know I have designed my circle of honest friends who aren't afraid to tell me when I bother them) then I remove myself from people as much as humanly possible.  I don't need to inform them of my bodily functions nor 'excuse' my behavior from such.  Just get yourself the hell out of the way of others. 

 

As far as the moodiness, it exists but.... it is controllable to a point.  It has much to do with diet and vitamins/nutrients.  You can prevent or reduce moodiness and painful cramping SIGNIFICANTLY by making sure you up your intake on a few essential nutrients such as magnesium and potassium (and I'm sure others).  This is best if ingested by natural foods (beets, bananas ,dark veggies, etc) but I guess supplements work as well.... depending.  It's more of a crap shoot with pills if you ask me.  

 

So again..it comes back to taking responsibility of your body and it's functions and how those functions can effect your mood and interactions with innocent bystanders.  I don't expect someone with a migraine to have the most patience or courtesy when experiencing that blinding pain, that's why they usually stay away from other people and take medication or get physical therapy for it. It's not ok for a person with a migraine to be a complete tool to those around him but it is understandable but it becomes 'aggressive' when that toolish behavior sticks around and constantly reminds them why they are being a tool rather than going home to deal with the issue in private.

 

It's like...we are ALL aware of how annoying it is when people are like, "gawwwdddd.. I have the WORST headache.  <toolish remarks, complaints, etc>"  and you reply...oh...so maybe go lie down/go home and take care of that, etc.  "oh...I can't...but what I can do is muster up enough energy to torture you with on complaining about HOW BAD my headache is..."  No really...it's ok.  Please...I may have Ibuprofin in my bag/desk, etc...I say it because I care.  "no no.  I can tough it out...."  BUT I CANNOT!  lol  

[fractional slacker]

I went through this article and basically destroyed all the points one at a time. It just highlights how modern 3rd wave feminism is so fundamentally detached from reality, there's an awful lot of denial of the biological realities that exist between males and females, denial of science and rational thinking and also a prevalence of expectations that people all behave in ways which protect the sensitive emotions of women, there's this implicit suggestion that it's some kind of crime to say something, express an opinion or even infer something that might lead to emotional distress of a woman. We saw this all culminate recently at the UN with Ms Sarkeesian and Ms Quinn where we're seeing it suggested that cyberbullying (that is text transmitted over the internet) is as bad as physical violence and how can we work to essentially eliminate this, a disgusting attempt to erode free speech.

 

You nailed it when you pointed out these folks are fundamentally detached from reality. They attempt to use logic and biology to prove logic and biology don't exist. They are petulant perpetual victims who can't stand the thought of not garnering constant attention for being victims.

I am sure there is a word to describe what happens to society when modern civilization enables village idiots not only to live long lives, but to continue infecting the gene pool.

[Ace]

Only people whose business experience consists of being a writer for some hipster publication could describe this whole "women never get the chance to make themselves heard in the workplace" stuff while keeping a straight face lol. 

[Frosty]

I'll add one more to my 'rant' above... if women don't want to be called 'moody' then they have GOT to stop with, "oh.....I ate a box of cookies because I'm PMSing"  or  "I'm PMS'ing therefore...."  They open the door on this double standard.  I'm a woman and here is how I handle it:

 

Exactly right, either there are biological processes that lead to other mood and behavioural changes or there isn't. You don't get to pick and choose when it suits your argument, like excuse treating other people badly one day but then deny any kind of irrationality in an argument.

 

I watched a good TED video on PMS recently which expanded the small amount of science done on PMS and took a much closer look at it and for the vast majority of women it's not nearly as pervasive or bad as they thought, that post hoc reporting of feelings are over inflated numbers and when a diary is actually kept of feelings during the menstrual cycle it's a much more mild issue. I don't want to deny what people feel but there is an obvious issue with measuring these things concerning subjectivity, confirmation bias and lack of good definition for PMS.

 

You could always just call a woman out for being irrational in a discussion while suffering PMS but quite frankly I think that'd be met with an equal amount of vitriol as if you just asked "are you on your period?", I think it's the inference of irrationality when the question of PMS comes up rather than the PMS itself, after all it's not something women can do much about.

[regevdl]

Exactly right, either there are biological processes that lead to other mood and behavioural changes or there isn't. You don't get to pick and choose when it suits your argument, like excuse treating other people badly one day but then deny any kind of irrationality in an argument.

 

I watched a good TED video on PMS recently which expanded the small amount of science done on PMS and took a much closer look at it and for the vast majority of women it's not nearly as pervasive or bad as they thought, that post hoc reporting of feelings are over inflated numbers and when a diary is actually kept of feelings during the menstrual cycle it's a much more mild issue. I don't want to deny what people feel but there is an obvious issue with measuring these things concerning subjectivity, confirmation bias and lack of good definition for PMS.

 

You could always just call a woman out for being irrational in a discussion while suffering PMS but quite frankly I think that'd be met with an equal amount of vitriol as if you just asked "are you on your period?", I think it's the inference of irrationality when the question of PMS comes up rather than the PMS itself, after all it's not something women can do much about.

The test is...if during their "PMS" they are a raging B to you but can speak kindly to the local grocer cashier.... call out their B.S. lol