Sabras Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I would love to see what you guys think about Jennifer's essay about sexism. Do you think it's a case of black and white sexism or is there a different explanation? Let me know what you think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koroviev Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabras Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 http://www.vogue.co.uk/news/2015/10/13/jennifer-lawrence-lenny-essay-hollywood-gender-pay-gap It's all over the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Torbald Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I would love to see what you guys think about Jennifer's essay about sexism. Do you think it's a case of black and white sexism or is there a different explanation? Let me know what you think Robert Downey Jr. makes millions off the Marvel movies while his other male co-stars earn fractions of what he makes. There is blatant inequality of a salaries in Hollywood, but it is not driven by a desire to keem womyn down and subservient. The disparity comes from good contract negotiations, the ability to draw the masses towards a cinema, the legacy of an actor given his awards and fame, and what people want to see. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laowai Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I stopped following Lawrence after the Joan Rivers incident and the nude photo scandal. Wish I could write such dribble and have it classed as an essay. I think Lawrence is politicizing this for her own personal gain and to push gender centric policies to elevate her position in the feminist sphere. I agree it was a dumb decision by the executives to pay different wages to women when everyone knows this will cause tension. I wonder if the execs were all Jewish and if this had any bearing on the pay gap; because as a white anglo male I would never make such a dumb mistake or have a desire to treat women differently. But I think this public whinging by millionaires over 2% pay gaps doesn't do anything to endear them to the general public who could only dream of making such sums. If Lawrence genuinely cared about this issue she would not go about it in the most antagonizing way possible. Calling men 'lucky people with dicks' is highly derogatory and misandry. If you have to talk to more than three people about the same problem you don't want help, you want attention. This is not black/white as otherwise men in female dominated industries would be doing the same thing. They don't. Yo never hear male models complaining about being paid less than female models. Plus wasn't Lawrence's role in the movie smaller than her male colleagues? Maybe that had a bearing on the pay differences. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 First of all, we have to ask "Are these exchanges voluntary?" The answer is yes. So it's important to keep in mind that what's being talked about is a preference. This is important to understand because we have to ask "Where is this going?" Are the people in the article trying to raise awareness so that people will not patronize movies that are made with labor that experience disparate pay on the basis of gender alone? Or are they trying to incite people to initiate the use of force (even by proxy by way of the State for example). Unrelated side note, are these same people addressing the gender inequalities in things like military draft or family court systems? Doesn't seem honest to say "that guy is getting paid more than me for the same work because of his gender" if so much is taken from him in family court for his gender. Since they're focusing on voluntary exchanges and I'm pointing to matters of victims of aggression, isn't one more important than the other? Why don't these people start their own studios and only higher specific genders if that's what they feel is a good thing to do? If that's what people want, they will put other studios out of business. I don't think these people are telling you the whole story. I can shine a flashlight in one corner, but that doesn't mean that corner isn't part of an entire room. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A4E Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I have a feeling I am being punked. If it is everywhere in the news, then it could be a distraction from something else. Like in the same morning when the top news was that Russia was carrying out airstrikes in Syria for 2nd day, we had the Oregon college event without evidence, making it the top story. So what else happened? Could the following be a story worthy of creating distractions? Migrant crisis: Merkel says EU must secure external borders. Perhaps it is this one: Syrian army and Russian jets target rebel towns north of Homs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laowai Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 The first I heard of her was in the first Hunger Games movie and then saw her on the red carpet in which she was hilarious and seemed so down to earth and normal. I remember watching a lot of those 'Jennifer Lawrence funny moments' people make on You Tube and laughing my head off at how awesome she was. I don't know what happened that has made her suddenly change. Maybe the other A list actresses have changed her and brainwashed her. It is a real shame because she used to be so carefree and fun and now...well ever since the nude photo scandal I noticed she has changed. It seems really out of character for her IMHO. I see a lot of myself in her actually; and can't help but feel before I was made aware of feminism while researching robots on Twitter and coming across all the feminist academic nuts that I too have undergone a massive personality change that sees me thinking in way about gender that I never would have imagined and actually think it is having a toxic affect on me, in a way I wish I could have never known the world that is gender politics. It changes you and ends up making you a whinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regevdl Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Isn't her issue relative? And she answered her own question but failed to stop there and instead jumped on a connecting flight to blame-i-stan. HER WORDS, "I was mad at myself. I failed as a negotiator'. Ok.... so....now you have an Oscar, renegotiate! I mean Ellen Degeneres nets $330 MILLION...a gay female. and Robert Downey Jr about 1/2 that. Bring the talent....get the cash. If a gay female (and she came out WAY early in the game) can crush the numbers game with some really talented males or prominent males....then her argument is petty whining. Plus, she's not clear on who she is comparing herself to. I mean, she is still rather new to the industry and that's great she has an Oscar but does she expect to get paid as much as Jack Nicholson (who she CLEARLY was star struck by...indicating she didn't feel she was his performance equal). So there is a lot to consider. Correct me if I am wrong but aren't actors paid based on the projected profit specualations of the success of the movie. They may choose a lower salary in exchange for royalties or something of the sort. So she is throwing out a REALLY ambiguous, broad brush of accusation AFTER she admitted the reason she is paid less....she is bad at negotiating! smh. Also, in a weird way SHE use verbal slander against herself, a woman to push some message of disinfranchised women. "I didn't want to seem spoiled or difficult'. These are terms typically used towards women who are assertive so, even if the world is full oppressive men and she chooses to use her fame to call it out, then why in the world would she use such self degrading terms!? She could have better said, "I messed up as a negotiatior. I was afraid to be assertive in a male-dominated industry, I have since learned and will do much better next time." The way she puts it is not inspirational at all. So be assertive, don't require men to be less assertive. Oh....poor baby girl wants to compete for equal pay if men try less hard. ...ok sorry... after I posted this I searched more on actor/ress salaries. J. Lawerance nets about $60million, $52 she earned in last year. Bradley Cooper (a previous Co-Star) nets $80million. Now....$80M IS a larger number than $60M however considering he has been in FAR more well known movies that to my knowledge had a lot of success. Hangover trilogy, I can't remember the name but the one where he takes that weird super-power drug. Wasn't he in another one with Scarlett Johansson (sorry..I am TERRIBLE with movie names) . So again. when you start to put things in context to try to compare apples to apples, she comes off just a whiny cry baby. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koroviev Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 http://www.vogue.co.uk/news/2015/10/13/jennifer-lawrence-lenny-essay-hollywood-gender-pay-gap It's all over the news. Sorry, lol, this is my news 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccuTron Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Calling men 'lucky people with dicks' -- somebody needs to educate herself. Look up Norah Vincent's opinion, as someone who actually did the research. Lesbian feminist, who posed as a male with makeup and voice coaching. Quit after a year or so, couldn't stand it, glad to be female again since it was easier. Funny what happens to opinions when actual truth is checked.... Norah Vincent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia " Vincent asserts that, since the experiment, she has never been more glad to be female.[7]" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cab21 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 so she negotiated a contract for less points than other people negotiated for, that's not sexism, that's negotiation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I really quite despair with this millenial generation of whiny self entitled women these days. Millionairesses such as Taylor Swift and now this silly bint. Have all the comforts of the modern world really replaced their brain matter to that of pulp. I cannot imagine the actresses (or songtresses) of the past would have been so crass. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirgall Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I really quite despair with this millenial generation of whiny self entitled women these days. Millionairesses such as Taylor Swift and now this silly bint. Have all the comforts of the modern world really replaced their brain matter to that of pulp. I cannot imagine the actresses (or songtresses) of the past would have been so crass. I know this is not about her, but Swift is a shrewd marketer, and knows quite well what she is doing. She has long learned to cultivate a group of followers with her statements and get free airtime and marketing from it. She's learned a lot of about financial smarts from her father, who works maintaining a specific financial advisory group for Merrill Lynch. Some examples: http://guardianlv.com/2012/10/taylor-swifts-epic-marketing-genius-is-on-the-scale-with-steve-jobs/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2015/05/28/taylor-swift-marketing-genius-how-bad-blood-went-right-to-number-one/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I know this is not about her, but Swift is a shrewd marketer, and knows quite well what she is doing. She has long learned to cultivate a group of followers with her statements and get free airtime and marketing from it. She's learned a lot of about financial smarts from her father, who works maintaining a specific financial advisory group for Merrill Lynch. Some examples: http://guardianlv.com/2012/10/taylor-swifts-epic-marketing-genius-is-on-the-scale-with-steve-jobs/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2015/05/28/taylor-swift-marketing-genius-how-bad-blood-went-right-to-number-one/ All that might be true of course, but imagine a (celebrity) bloke publicaly whinging like she has done recently. Privilege of the sacred vagina! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirgall Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 All that might be true of course, but imagine a (celebrity) bloke publicaly whinging like she has done recently. Privilege of the sacred vagina! Did you miss our latest James Bond complaining about getting rich making James Bond movies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Did you miss our latest James Bond complaining about getting rich making James Bond movies? I did. But I don't think there'd be anything wrong with somebody getting rich making movies to stand up and say, "Hey, I think we place too much value on celebrities and over the top movies." Then again, I'm in the camp that was sick of CGI in movies the first time I saw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Did you miss our latest James Bond complaining about getting rich making James Bond movies? No I was not privy to this.. But I assume I missed the memo from Ms Moneypenny. Damn her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirgall Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 No I was not privy to this.. But I assume I missed the memo from Ms Moneypenny. Damn her! If you want favors from Moneypenny, you have to toss your trilby onto the coat rack from across the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage of Main Street Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Robert Downey Jr. makes millions off the Marvel movies while his other male co-stars earn fractions of what he makes. There is blatant inequality of a salaries in Hollywood, but it is not driven by a desire to keem womyn down and subservient. The disparity comes from good contract negotiations, the ability to draw the masses towards a cinema, the legacy of an actor given his awards and fame, and what people want to see. Big Sister Is Watching You Watching Her Intimidate You Hollywood is pushing these absurdly unrealistic female superheroes beating up every guy. So the pawns who star in this pushy femininny humiliation of male reality should feel lucky they're making any money at all, which they wouldn't if such fantasies reflected real life instead of emotion-driven emasculation. The producers have been taking advantage of bitter and vindictive actresses willing to sacrifice for the Sisterhood. Now some of the most ungrateful ones are taking their lying propaganda roles seriously and demanding to be paid as if they weren't flunkies of predatory feminism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagnumPI Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 I really quite despair with this millenial generation of whiny self entitled women these days. Millionairesses such as Taylor Swift and now this silly bint. Have all the comforts of the modern world really replaced their brain matter to that of pulp. I cannot imagine the actresses (or songtresses) of the past would have been so crass. In the past, I think they were more honest about what they were. Wanda Jackson knew she couldn't stack up to Elvis, Marilyn Monroe and Raquel Welch knew they were just hot. And they seemed to enjoy their lifestyles, just the same. In fact, from what I can tell, in the past it was the point for women to become actresses to sleep with famous people. There wasn't a hell of a lot of 'respect me for my talent' BS going on. Even though acting was bad, you take a Jimmy Stewart. He was funny, charming, looked cool and was generally likeable, pleasant. Rita Hayworth was hot and sexy. Cary Grant has his face next to the word 'man' in the dictionary. Humphrey Bogart, Marlon Brando, on and on. Extremely cool people, with different personalities and charms and wit. Then you move over to the actresses... They were hot. And they knew that's what they were being paid for. Consequently, since that's all they had to be, they were so utterly, ridiculously attractive. To the point I wouldn't say in comparison, any actress today(excepting maybe Olivia Wilde) even comes close to the 50's stars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 In the past, I think they were more honest about what they were. Wanda Jackson knew she couldn't stack up to Elvis, Marilyn Monroe and Raquel Welch knew they were just hot. And they seemed to enjoy their lifestyles, just the same. In fact, from what I can tell, in the past it was the point for women to become actresses to sleep with famous people. There wasn't a hell of a lot of 'respect me for my talent' BS going on. Even though acting was bad, you take a Jimmy Stewart. He was funny, charming, looked cool and was generally likeable, pleasant. Rita Hayworth was hot and sexy. Cary Grant has his face next to the word 'man' in the dictionary. Humphrey Bogart, Marlon Brando, on and on. Extremely cool people, with different personalities and charms and wit. Then you move over to the actresses... They were hot. And they knew that's what they were being paid for. Consequently, since that's all they had to be, they were so utterly, ridiculously attractive. To the point I wouldn't say in comparison, any actress today(excepting maybe Olivia Wilde) even comes close to the 50's stars. And still, they Yes, generally I found them to be somewhat demur compared to now and far from being demanding and entitled. They enjoyed the reverence they recieved (and deserved) in reasonable measure. As were the men of that day, as the (celebrity men of today) today do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Very Ape Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Why do I care what she thinks at all? And why is she viewed as an authority on this subject vs. the hundreds of millions of other people who have had a different experience? I mean, she feels there is a "gender pay gap" or whatever trendy Marxist term is in style. I don't and I don't care what she thinks. I got an email from the ACLU the other day talking about "white privilege" and how its unjust and invisible but all-prevasive - talk about not knowing your audience. I unsubscribed and told them to go F themselves. How are they even arbitrating on such things? The ACLU is supposed to be about civil liberties, not social justice warrioring. Is there any person on earth, that, if you went up to them and told them that simply based on their skin color they had and unspoken "privilege" that they should give up and that its only fair to give more of their money to everyone else, etc., who wouldn't automatically hate you? Liberals are the ones obsessed with race and gender. That's all they f'ng talk about. How about we start calling them on it? Liberals are so f'ng clueless its unreal. They're really upping their game folks, Sauron would be jealous... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spenc Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 so she negotiated a contract for less points than other people negotiated for, that's not sexism, that's negotiation. also, i'm guessing she has a manager/agent who actually negotiates on her behalf. and that her agent is part of a company/team that negotiates for many actors and actresses in hollywood. and that her agency would know how much people with dicks are making in movies and how to leverage their clients negotiating position with that knowledge. she's so fucking annoying with this article. she's basically saying that she's being a good woman, being quiet and not causing any trouble, basically conforming to stereotypical patriarchal demands on women. like she was brainwashwed into conforming to a man's view of a woman in order to go along to get along in the business. meanwhile, we all know she had an agent who was a go-between and wasnt so "aw-shucks" conformist in the bargaining sessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTruthiness Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I didn't find her annoying at all. She had a point. She realized late in her career that certain traits like being too agreeable or easy to work with were a significant disadvantage to her in negotiations. If you've ever worked in sales, after some time you can easily gauge how difficult a close will be depending on how aloof or agreeable someone is. She sees this pattern being a particular problem for women in particular who can't separate how they're raised to behave in public from how they should assert themselves and their value in private negotiations. I don't entirely share her view on the systematic sexism aspect of it (I think it's a lost opportunity to talk about the importance of self-worth in negotiations in general), but I do respect what she said and how she tried to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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