Donnadogsoth Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 No, I don't mean to ask whether ants have hearts that pump their blood, I mean whether ants have emotional earnestness. They appear to have heart, unlimited motivation, and zeal, but I'm curious what the FDR crowd has to say on the matter.
dsayers Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 What do you think? Is there a null hypothesis? Can you describe by what method we could test for this and interpret the results? What would it mean if the answer turned out to be yes or the answer turned out to be no?
Will Torbald Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 They don't. They're insects with very primitive neural systems. They just follow chemical signals and work independently of each other even if they appear to work as a team. They're pretty much automaton robots made of goop and keratin. 1
Donnadogsoth Posted October 19, 2015 Author Posted October 19, 2015 What do you think? Is there a null hypothesis? Can you describe by what method we could test for this and interpret the results? What would it mean if the answer turned out to be yes or the answer turned out to be no? I think ants have heart. I think things are usually icebergish, where there's more going on under the surface than we think. Wouldn't the null hypothesis be that ants are more or less "pure physics"? I think we'd need some kind of fMRI that could scan them while they're moving, since drugging them into quiescence would delete the brain activity needed to prove the hypothesis. If we could map the ant brain, and compare it with the human brain, we could see if the activity in the structures in the human brain associated with expressions of "heart" matched activity in analogous structures in the ant's brain. Really I think that would be all there is to it, because ants are so single-minded any other kind of test would detect nothing. Proving ants have heart could have serious ramifications for how humanity relates to animals, including possibly extending rights to animals that have heart. If ants were proven to be more or less "pure physics" then our relationship to them might change in the other direction.
laowai Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 They don't. They're insects with very primitive neural systems. They just follow chemical signals and work independently of each other even if they appear to work as a team. They're pretty much automaton robots made of goop and keratin. I would dispute that. Have you ever isolated an ant and observed it's behavior? It becomes panicked and clearly shows negative affects of being isolated from other ants. Whether or not this depressed behavior is the result of an innate emotional component I don't know....I like to hold onto the idea that biological intelligence is coupled with emotions of some sort although as you say this may probably not be the case for all biological intelligence. But it's a sobering thought to think sophisticated animals such as ants could be considered void of emotion. I have owned 'social robots' in the past and understand what void of emotion is. To me having no emotions implies you react to inputs without showing 'excitement', 'aggression', 'fear' things which to me all ants demonstrate and show they do experience something similar to what we would describe as emotions in my opinion. It would be interesting to study this and find out. When observing workers with their Queen, after watching them move the Queen to a new chamber, you notice the workers already in the chamber become visibly excited, whether this is emotion or not I don't know. But I like to think it is. Also notice these two Queens jostling for hierarchy within the colony. Would you say the aggression they were demonstrating towards one another was an emotion or not? If the definition of emotion is 'a strong feeling deriving from one's circumstances, mood, or relationships with others' then I would conclude the Queen ants reacting to one another like this show ants are not just running on auto pilot and there is something else innate there. Just my two cents.
dsayers Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Proving ants have heart could have serious ramifications for how humanity relates to animals, including possibly extending rights to animals that have heart. As I understand it, the price of admission is reason, not "heart." Can an ant conceptualize self, the other, formulate ideals, compare behavior to those ideals, calculate consequences, etc? If they are unable to understand and control their actions based on principled ideals, they're not responsible for their actions and wouldn't qualify for personhood.
laowai Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 As I understand it, the price of admission is reason, not "heart." Can an ant conceptualize self, the other, formulate ideals, compare behavior to those ideals, calculate consequences, etc? If they are unable to understand and control their actions based on principled ideals, they're not responsible for their actions and wouldn't qualify for personhood. Find I have to agree with everything written here haha. Sadly I personally think the only animals that have 'emotional cognition' or 'personhood' are people. It seems all other life forms are pretty much just zombie 'robots' running on instincts consisting of pre-programmed behaviors. I thought for a moment other animals might have emotion but I doubt it. Even if they did they don't express it very well or seem to be influenced by it to any great degree. They have already dissected ants brains and determined they can be made to act aggressively by exposing them to a chemical. http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2015/07/01/4264629.htm Although they do display some pretty intelligent behavior- I am not sure they understand or have any concept of what they are actually doing. It's a sad realization when you come to realize all other life on earth is pretty much just a biological robot.
Lars Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 What does it actually mean to possess "emotional earnestness"?Most other animals could be considered relatively lacking if we're judging them by human standards.
laowai Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 What does it actually mean to possess "emotional earnestness"? Most other animals could be considered relatively lacking if we're judging them by human standards. Good point. Depends what your comparing the ants to. If your comparing the ants to humans you would say they had little emotional intelligence. If you compared ants to the emotional intelligence seen in artificial intelligence/ computers/ robots you would say ants have sophisticated emotional intelligence. I wonder what you would classify ants as on the emotional scale compared to other animals.
Donnadogsoth Posted October 19, 2015 Author Posted October 19, 2015 As I understand it, the price of admission is reason, not "heart." Can an ant conceptualize self, the other, formulate ideals, compare behavior to those ideals, calculate consequences, etc? If they are unable to understand and control their actions based on principled ideals, they're not responsible for their actions and wouldn't qualify for personhood. The would never be persons because they lack self-conscious reasoning. But if they are "little souls" endowed with real feelings, they merit more empathetic consideration than if they were robots or stones, similar, but to a lesser degree, to how puppies merit such.
laowai Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I think your right. It's so easy to listen to someone who seems to know what there talking about deduce everything into clinical terms of 'personhood'. Ok I will backtrack. I think all animals have emotions and emotional intelligence. Even ants. Just because we can't see it doesn't mean anything. I also think they have a better understanding of what they are doing than we give them credit for. I think they can be conscious and self aware, even ants. But these days the west is driven by science, science and more science we tend to dismiss anything that isn't on par with our intelligence as dumb. Sometimes science doesn't have all the answers and maybe this is one of those times. I'll always believe biological entities are coupled with emotions of some sort. Anyway you have given me lots to think about. I won't be responding again but hope you found some of my info helpful. Bye.
A4E Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Meanwhile in an ant hill... "Do those gigantic monsters have any heart whatsoever when they are randomly stomping our family without even eating them? They must have no regard or respect for other life, and are evidently just giant biological robots made of goop and keratin. Sadly I personally think the only life that have 'emotional cognition' or 'anthood' are ants. It seems all other life forms are pretty much just zombie 'robots' running on instincts consisting of pre-programmed behaviors. I thought for a moment other life outside of our ant hill might have emotion but I doubt it. Even if they did they don't express it very well or seem to be influenced by it to any great degree. We have already tested giant monster brains and determined they can be made to act panicking by exposing them to the chemical in our abdomen. They would never be ants because they lack self-conscious reasoning. They are clearly not responsible for their actions and wouldn't qualify for anthood. Although they do display some pretty intelligent behavior- I am not sure they understand or have any concept of what they are actually doing. It's a sad realization when all other life outside of our peaceful, productive and caring colony is pretty much just a biological robot."
laowai Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Take the piss....yeah can really see this place is full of dowdy little economics students who don't expend too much time on any of the heavier sciences. We are not all blessed with your moronic wit. Coming from someone who thinks everything is a government conspiracy...it's all just lies, lies. How can anyone take you seriously. Sad your life is so dull you wasted it having a go at someone unnecessarily, and had the time to read and then type all that. Wish I could be that pathetic. Your in a league of your own there.
dsayers Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 The would never be persons because they lack self-conscious reasoning. But if they are "little souls" endowed with real feelings, they merit more empathetic consideration than if they were robots or stones, similar, but to a lesser degree, to how puppies merit such. I get that. I'm just trying to help you be more precise with your topic. Personally, I wouldn't even limit it to emotion. Plants are life forms too and if we can co-exist with them, this might very well be preferable. But people come first. If ants have to die so humans can live, I'm for it. Given their numbers and life span, this is a sustainable proposition:
Donnadogsoth Posted October 19, 2015 Author Posted October 19, 2015 I get that. I'm just trying to help you be more precise with your topic. Personally, I wouldn't even limit it to emotion. Plants are life forms too and if we can co-exist with them, this might very well be preferable. But people come first. If ants have to die so humans can live, I'm for it. Given their numbers and life span, this is a sustainable proposition: I think we agree about animals and human priority. Concerning plants, they merit respect, the moreso for how rare and old they are. But no amount of Death Cab for Cutie music will make me eat bugs unless a macro-meat embargo is put in place. I'm generally against eating things that haven't had their digestive tracts removed prior to being cooked. And, of course, the next stage in the humiliation of Western man will be eating not cooked bugs but raw, live ones. Fear Factor in every dining room.
dsayers Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 But no amount of Death Cab for Cutie music will make me eat bugs unless a macro-meat embargo is put in place. I'm generally against eating things that haven't had their digestive tracts removed prior to being cooked. And, of course, the next stage in the humiliation of Western man will be eating not cooked bugs but raw, live ones. Fear Factor in every dining room. Do you think this perhaps is a conclusion you've arrived upon amid the luxury of an excess of food? When I was a kid, being punished one night, I nicked some of the dog's food because I was that hungry in the moment.
AccuTron Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 ...I'll always believe biological entities are coupled with emotions of some sort. ... They are coupled with YOUR emotions (or those of other mammal viewers). We are emotional beings, and see the world that way. Our emotional structure is more or less a brain layer called the limbic system. (Yes brains intra-connect all over the wazoo, but it seems a fair generalization.) No limbic system, no emotions. Evolution made it very successfully with fish/amphibian/reptile brains, which we still have within us, with code structure that works fabulously for survival and reproduction, essentially reproduction of it's own code, old news there. When proto-mammals occurred, they were largely nocturnal, little rats or such. (Actually, noticing our roots in "little rats" explains a lot of other stuff on these forums.) Nature needed to grow new code, and used the existing and well-entrenched olfactory system for starting (reduced vision means more reliance on scent or hearing, begging the question if that's why music can be emotional). A new layer of code grew, our limbic layer, and it has a micro-structural similarity to nasal neurology. (I stumbled upon all this and more while researching my own brain injury some years ago. Women, we men don't recall your eye color because it has zero info about your health and condition, and evolution said don't waste time on it.) You will notice that smells give us good "feelings." Feeling is a word humans invented to describe a category of experience that didn't exist before proto-mammals. Think how you feel when you smell warm fudge brownies or fresh coffee, a home fireplace, a thick coat you love, any loved ones at all, fresh water...we FEEL good...those are the new (if you use a few tens of millions of years as "new") codes guiding us, to all those things we need to survive. We respond to feelings, we react to their guidance, which originally meant family, shelter, good food and water. We also developed FEAR*, since things out there want to eat us, even as little rats. (*Sort of a reverse Pandora's Box.) I don't know how salamanders feel about getting back home, or a fudge brownie equivalent, but it ain't what we feel. Best guess is memories of being very sick with disease or injury, and fighting for consciousness. There were moments or minutes, when I was barely existent, my actions were based upon simple urgent instructions from my head, to crawl, or hold my head up, seek water...there was no possibility of an emotion, that stuff was clobbered out of existence. I was reduced to a survival automaton. Does the salamander have a life like that...without the sickness part? A bunch of LEGO's with a heartbeat? About showing heart in action, well, so does Niagara Falls. And what we call panic in an ant, tho' it probably is for life threatening reasons, may just be considered "initiation of certain rapid responses." Cars are sedate at 10mph, and manic monsters at 70mph. Does that imply a monstrous spirit-entity resides in the engine block?
rosencrantz Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 Here is something I found that makes me wonder if ants have that much of a brain
A4E Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 Here is something I found that makes me wonder if ants have that much of a brain Some ants have their convictions. Just like some people: 1
Donnadogsoth Posted November 18, 2015 Author Posted November 18, 2015 Superb, thank you. But don't the gods who look down on us milling about think the same? 1
J. D. Stembal Posted November 21, 2015 Posted November 21, 2015 I'd love for ants to have hearts. Animal hearts are pretty damn tasty!
Recommended Posts