Providing structure for small children

[mahayana]

I was wondering what other parents out there do in order to provide structure for their children.  Just recently, my child has been showing behaviors that are similar to children with ADHD. (I hesitate to call it that since I think ADHD is a blanket term for behaviors that are a result of ineffective parenting, but the similarities exist) As of now, they are very mild and I'd like to tackle this problem before it turns into a larger behavioral problem.

 

An example of my daughters behaviors that concerns me is her difficulty in following directions. When she's at soccer practice, she has a hard time doing a drill if it has more that two steps or so. Part of that problem is from her not listening to the coach while he explains things. She gets distracted very easily & will mess around with the other girls instead of listening. The other girls her age are far better at paying attention & knowing what they're supposed to do. (It's not that she isn't interested in soccer, it's one of her favorite things)

 

I grew up without any structure so I'm learning & working on attaining that for myself as well. I know I have to lead by example. I've tried following a set schedule but that rarely ends up being successful. There are many things I know I can improve on. One example is I always clean up after my daughter instead of having her do it. It just feels easier/faster than pleading with her to do it, but I know this is probably bad for her in the long run. I'm frustrated with myself for not having been better with this. I have a hard time balancing between being an assertive responsible parent & allowing my daughter to do what she pleases. My daughter is a good kid & is very cooperative. I know I can reverse this trend.

 

Am I wrong in linking these behavioral problems to a lack of structure? What are some other age appropriate responsibilities to give to a 6 or 7 year old? Also, are there any games or activities that might help improve her focus?

I would appreciate any advice!

[neeeel]

It sounds like she does have structure ( eg in the soccer practice, there is a structure there to help her learn and practice). Are you sure you have identified the problem correctly? Perhaps she is more interested in messing around with the other girls, than following instructions, is that a bad thing?

 

Its not really clear what you mean by "a lack of structure"? Can you give some examples? What you wrote isnt an example of lack of structure, its an example of her not paying attention, or not completing the drills. I wouldnt necessarily call those a behavioural problem.

 

Perhaps it is your projection of the need for structure that is troubling you? Perhaps you having uncomfortable thoughts about how she will be in the future? Can you know that it will turn out that way?

 

Why is structure important to you?

 

Have you talked to her about it? In a curious and open manner?

 

Its interesting that you identify ADHD as being "caused" by ineffective parenting, and then go on to class your daughter as ADHD-like.

[dsayers]

Hi, mahayana. I enjoyed your opening post. I think our inner monologues have a similar process of playing devil's advocate with ourselves. I like it because it means when we finally communicate the ideas outward, we already have a pretty good grasp of different perspectives.

 

I don't see structure as something that comes from without. When your daughter learned to speak, you didn't have to hold her lips or press her cheeks. She developed her own structure by observing others and learning how communication works best. When she learned to walk, she observed others walking and developed structure for crawling, balance, and eventually putting one foot in front of the other. The best way to "provide structure" is to model it.

 

The part about cleaning up a mess I think is really important. The next time you make a mess, show her. Ask her what she thinks should be done about it. Ask her why she thinks it should be cleaned up. Why she thinks you should be the one to clean it up. Then the next time she makes a mess, you can repeat the process. It helps a child to understand that actions have consequences. It provides greater self-awareness, pride, and self-accomplishment. I think you'll find she's more careful about making messes in the future if she feels responsible for them. Maybe when you show her messes you make and she comes to the conclusion that you should clean them up, you can bring up what you'd rather be doing and demonstrate how cleaning up after yourself makes it so that you can do what you'd rather be doing.

 

The part about soccer makes for an interesting conversation is well. First of all, why soccer? Was it her choice? Does she enjoy competition? Playing with her friends? Being outside? I don't see her wanting to play with friends rather than listening to instructions as problematic. Not if she's just there to play with her friends. I grew up the nerdy type and wasn't into watching sports at all. But I LOVED getting together with friends and tossing the football around. It was fun! If this is her perspective, then I don't agree with the conclusion that she needs to change to conform to soccer but that soccer needs to change to conform to her. If that means just kicking a ball around with friends in the backyard with friends instead of team style league play, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

If instead she IS in fact more interested in working together with others to accomplish something she can't on her own, and she's interested in team/league play, then maybe the "problem" is that she doesn't understand why drills are important. Maybe sit down and watch a soccer game with her. Ask her what she likes about it. Ask her if she'd like to be able to do that too. Explain to her that just like learning to talk and walk, learning to play soccer well takes practice too. Let her know that chances are, even if a drill doesn't seem relevant at the time, the practice and especially the practicing with other people will help her to do that. If she wants to be a good soccer player, then just explaining this (and relating it to things she already understands like writing) will encourage her to develop her own structure since structure is a tool by which we do something with increasing efficiency.

 

What do you think about this?

[mahayana]

It sounds like she does have structure ( eg in the soccer practice, there is a structure there to help her learn and practice). Are you sure you have identified the problem correctly? Perhaps she is more interested in messing around with the other girls, than following instructions, is that a bad thing?

 

Its not really clear what you mean by "a lack of structure"? Can you give some examples? What you wrote isnt an example of lack of structure, its an example of her not paying attention, or not completing the drills. I wouldnt necessarily call those a behavioural problem.

 

Perhaps it is your projection of the need for structure that is troubling you? Perhaps you having uncomfortable thoughts about how she will be in the future? Can you know that it will turn out that way?

 

Why is structure important to you?

 

Have you talked to her about it? In a curious and open manner?

 

Its interesting that you identify ADHD as being "caused" by ineffective parenting, and then go on to class your daughter as ADHD-like.

 

By lack of structure I mean that there isn’t anything she does consistently other than going to school. The rest of my daughter’s free time is usually spent doing what she wants which is usually playing, coloring & drawing. I try to do a little homework each day with her but a lot of times were catching up on it the day before it’s due. My daughter is very used to doing what she wants to do. I’m not saying this is bad, but I believe that could be what’s leading to her problem focusing. Structure is important to me because I know first hand the consequences of not having it!

 

My daughter had her annual physical a couple weeks ago, and when I told our pediatrician some of my concerns, she said it sounds similar to ADHD. Her first question was what our home life/daily routine was like. When I said my daughter was ADHD-like, I was admitting that I must be doing something wrong to have caused my daughter’s attention issues. After I noticed the issues at soccer, I checked in with my daughter's teacher to see how she was doing in class. She mentioned that on occasion she was having a hard time following directions with school work. I've seen this myself when we're working on homework together. She'll mess up on something & I'll show her how to correct it. She'll erase & rewrite the same wrong answer. She does this often. It's like her mind is elsewhere and she’s only partially listening. I know she's only 6 and and of course her mind is wandering when she's doing common core homework. I don't mean to make a bigger deal out of it than it is, but I'm just concerned that she isn't able to focus as well as her peers.

 

I’m definitely concerned about how she’ll turn out in the future. I remember a call in show a while back from a listener who had a teenage daughter. The dad was concerned because the daughter was having motivational problems. All she wanted to do was sit at home & play minecraft. I can’t remember all of the details but I remember the dad was all about unschooling and admitted the daughter's childhood was very unstructured. He was more of a friend than a dad & let her do whatever she wanted at home. Stef told him that unschooling doesn’t mean not having any structure whatsoever. That is exactly what I want to avoid and I wan’t to correct it now while she’s still young enough to change. Maybe you’re right and she doesn't need changing but it won’t hurt to make some changes at home. For example, we could start sitting at the table for dinner instead of eating in front of the TV. Maybe my daughter can take on some simple weekly chores so she can learn about being responsible.

 

Yes, we’ve talked about it a couple of times. I’m careful with how I bring it up because I definitely don’t want her to think she’s flawed. I had a mother that constantly told me how stupid I was so I have no reference for positive peaceful parenting except for these forums and the podcasts. My daughter is a great communicator. She has totally blown my expectations and I just want to raise her so that she’ll be successful & motivated. I have a tendency to overanalyze things so I appreciate your perspective.

[dsayers]

I didn't realize she was going to school, so I'd like to add more to my take if that's alright. I share your hesitance and interpretation of ADHD. In fact, when I first started hearing about it, my initial reaction (not the most rigorous) was "If that's a real thing, then how come it went from never happening, to describing everybody?"

 

When I was in kindergarten, I was separated from others and given special testing. Apparently, they were able to see that I was smart. Needless to say, this singling me out was not helpful! My point was that throughout my youngest school years, I was constantly lambasted as having behavioral problems. The problem was that school was not engaging. In most subjects, the teacher would begin to cover something, it made sense to me, and everything after seemed like repeating themselves. I had no incentive to continue listening/participating.

 

Is it possible that school is too much structure? I'm sure you're aware as a member of this community how damaging it is.

 

Maybe my daughter can take on some simple weekly chores so she can learn about being responsible.

Responsibility refers to self. Chores as I see it would be doing work for your benefit. I think the advice I offered above regarding making a mess would teach responsibility (of self). Doing housework in the context of preparing her for adult life doesn't seem age-appropriate for a 6 year old. Instead of approaching it as a chore, why not approach it as helping mommy with her chores? Bring the laundry upstairs and ask if she'll help you fold it. Her folds won't look as good as mommy's folds right out of the gate. It's a good time (like with soccer drills) to talk with her about how failure is normal and okay and that practicing is how we get better. Then you can take the time to show her how you do it and help her with that practice. Then before long, as she gets a bit older, maybe she can fold her own laundry.

 

Imagine what would happen if she asked you why fold clothes at all. Can you explain this cultural habit to her in a logical way? I don't know if I could! And that's the point. When people use words like structure and chores, I think they're starting from the conclusion that the parent is automatically right. I'm not saying you here since your reaction to ADHD suspicion is humble (which I appreciate!). But you are using the terminology, so I thought maybe this would be a helpful way to look at it a bit differently.

 

What do you think of this?

[mahayana]

Hi, mahayana. I enjoyed your opening post. I think our inner monologues have a similar process of playing devil's advocate with ourselves. I like it because it means when we finally communicate the ideas outward, we already have a pretty good grasp of different perspectives.

 

I don't see structure as something that comes from without. When your daughter learned to speak, you didn't have to hold her lips or press her cheeks. She developed her own structure by observing others and learning how communication works best. When she learned to walk, she observed others walking and developed structure for crawling, balance, and eventually putting one foot in front of the other. The best way to "provide structure" is to model it.

 

The part about cleaning up a mess I think is really important. The next time you make a mess, show her. Ask her what she thinks should be done about it. Ask her why she thinks it should be cleaned up. Why she thinks you should be the one to clean it up. Then the next time she makes a mess, you can repeat the process. It helps a child to understand that actions have consequences. It provides greater self-awareness, pride, and self-accomplishment. I think you'll find she's more careful about making messes in the future if she feels responsible for them. Maybe when you show her messes you make and she comes to the conclusion that you should clean them up, you can bring up what you'd rather be doing and demonstrate how cleaning up after yourself makes it so that you can do what you'd rather be doing.

 

The part about soccer makes for an interesting conversation is well. First of all, why soccer? Was it her choice? Does she enjoy competition? Playing with her friends? Being outside? I don't see her wanting to play with friends rather than listening to instructions as problematic. Not if she's just there to play with her friends. I grew up the nerdy type and wasn't into watching sports at all. But I LOVED getting together with friends and tossing the football around. It was fun! If this is her perspective, then I don't agree with the conclusion that she needs to change to conform to soccer but that soccer needs to change to conform to her. If that means just kicking a ball around with friends in the backyard with friends instead of team style league play, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

If instead she IS in fact more interested in working together with others to accomplish something she can't on her own, and she's interested in team/league play, then maybe the "problem" is that she doesn't understand why drills are important. Maybe sit down and watch a soccer game with her. Ask her what she likes about it. Ask her if she'd like to be able to do that too. Explain to her that just like learning to talk and walk, learning to play soccer well takes practice too. Let her know that chances are, even if a drill doesn't seem relevant at the time, the practice and especially the practicing with other people will help her to do that. If she wants to be a good soccer player, then just explaining this (and relating it to things she already understands like writing) will encourage her to develop her own structure since structure is a tool by which we do something with increasing efficiency.

 

What do you think about this?

 

Hi Dsayers! We've tried out several activities like Tee Ball, gymnastics, & swimming but soccer seems to be one she especially likes. I have to admit I'm happy about that because I love soccer. I actually still play weekly on a co-ed league. My daughter loves competition. She's trying to be the best player on the team. Almost weekly she'll ask me to rank her compared to the other girls.  This is also why I bring up paying attention to her. I tell her if she really does have a goal of becoming a great soccer player, she should pay closer attention to her coach. I'm always reminding her that we're there for fun. I see how pushing a kid too hard can turn them off to a sport. She definitely has fun out there.

 

I chose to put my daughter in sports because we moved to an area where we don't really know anyone. I wanted her to be around other kids and get exercise. I also think it'll help build her self-esteem. We do soccer & girl scouts right now. Both have been great.

Is it possible that school is too much structure? I'm sure you're aware as a member of this community how damaging it is.

Yes, school is too much structure! I'm currently working on a way to home school her. I should be able to do so in about a year I hope. I'm very lucky though that she's going to a school in a really good neighborhood & as far as public schools go, this one is pretty good. (Which is the reason I moved to this area) I am definitely aware of how damaging public school can be. I do deprogramming on a weekly basis it seems. The dreaded red ribbon week is coming up next week and we've discussed how harmful the war on drugs has been & how lots of doctors prescribe legal drugs that are sometimes more harmful than illegal ones. I'm really not worried about my daughter being susceptible to propaganda. She's very intelligent. This could also be one of the causes for her having a hard time focusing. I think a lot of the material is too easy for her so she loses interest.

 

I see what you're saying about the chores. That definitely makes sense. I'll give her chores that are more to benefit her. I think something as simple as feeding the cat will give her a sense of importance. I know the word structure sounds negative but I think there can be meaningful structure.

[neeeel]

By lack of structure I mean that there isn’t anything she does consistently other than going to school. The rest of my daughter’s free time is usually spent doing what she wants which is usually playing, coloring & drawing. I try to do a little homework each day with her but a lot of times were catching up on it the day before it’s due. My daughter is very used to doing what she wants to do. I’m not saying this is bad, but I believe that could be what’s leading to her problem focusing. Structure is important to me because I know first hand the consequences of not having it

 

What are the consequences of not having structure? 

 

What sort of structure would you like your daughter to have, that she doesnt have now?

 

 

My daughter had her annual physical a couple weeks ago, and when I told our pediatrician some of my concerns, she said it sounds similar to ADHD. Her first question was what our home life/daily routine was like. When I said my daughter was ADHD-like, I was admitting that I must be doing something wrong to have caused my daughter’s attention issues. After I noticed the issues at soccer, I checked in with my daughter's teacher to see how she was doing in class. She mentioned that on occasion she was having a hard time following directions with school work. I've seen this myself when we're working on homework together. She'll mess up on something & I'll show her how to correct it. She'll erase & rewrite the same wrong answer. She does this often. It's like her mind is elsewhere and she’s only partially listening. I know she's only 6 and and of course her mind is wandering when she's doing common core homework. I don't mean to make a bigger deal out of it than it is, but I'm just concerned that she isn't able to focus as well as her peers.

 

 

I understand your concern. I am sure you are wary of labelling as well. I would guess that gently guiding and helping her with tasks like homework will help, and she will develop at her own pace.

 

 

I’m definitely concerned about how she’ll turn out in the future. I remember a call in show a while back from a listener who had a teenage daughter. The dad was concerned because the daughter was having motivational problems. All she wanted to do was sit at home & play minecraft. I can’t remember all of the details but I remember the dad was all about unschooling and admitted the daughter's childhood was very unstructured. He was more of a friend than a dad & let her do whatever she wanted at home. Stef told him that unschooling doesn’t mean not having any structure whatsoever. That is exactly what I want to avoid and I wan’t to correct it now while she’s still young enough to change. Maybe you’re right and she doesn't need changing but it won’t hurt to make some changes at home. For example, we could start sitting at the table for dinner instead of eating in front of the TV. Maybe my daughter can take on some simple weekly chores so she can learn about being responsible.

 

 

Im not sure that structure provides motivation. 

Imagine what would happen if she asked you why fold clothes at all. Can you explain this cultural habit to her in a logical way? I don't know if I could! And that's the point. When people use words like structure and chores, I think they're starting from the conclusion that the parent is automatically right. I'm not saying you here since your reaction to ADHD suspicion is humble (which I appreciate!). But you are using the terminology, so I thought maybe this would be a helpful way to look at it a bit differently.

 

 

This is kind of what I was trying to get at, and I think its an important point. sometimes we get locked into things that are kind of irrelevant, and feel that we need to pass them on to our children, when we probably dont 

[mahayana]

What are the consequences of not having structure? 

 

What sort of structure would you like your daughter to have, that she doesnt have now?

 

Ok, I might totally be wrong about this. I'm under the impression that having structure leads to the ability to focus & be motivated. To have a weekly schedule where you accomplish certain tasks gives one a sense of discipline. I think kids crave a little structure in their lives. I don't want to go overboard but I'd like to have somewhat of a routine. One idea is to have 15 minutes of cleanup before bedtime. Even things like reading a book before bedtime is something I'd consider as structure. My daughter loves being read to & we often run out of time in order to have her in bed at 8:30.

 

If I allow my daughter to only do fun things, how will she be when she's required to do something difficult? I want her to be able to follow through with things that are challenging & not give up. For now, I'd like her do a few simple weekly tasks so she can learn about responsibility.

 

So where do you think motivation comes from? My childhood had absolutely no structure & I struggle a lot with being motivated. I'm trying to make sure the same mistakes aren't repeated.

[dsayers]

I love soccer. I actually still play weekly on a co-ed league.

I half jumped out of my seat with joy when I read this. If she's pursuing soccer, that's going to be so useful that you currently play!

 

I chose to put my daughter in sports because we moved to an area where we don't really know anyone. I wanted her to be around other kids and get exercise. I also think it'll help build her self-esteem. We do soccer & girl scouts right now. Both have been great.

I hope she gets a lot out of it Just keep in mind that in terms of things like self-esteem and social skills, these usually come from the parent child relationship before peer relationships.

 

I do deprogramming on a weekly basis it seems. The dreaded red ribbon week is coming up next week and we've discussed how harmful the war on drugs has been & how lots of doctors prescribe legal drugs that are sometimes more harmful than illegal ones. I'm really not worried about my daughter being susceptible to propaganda. She's very intelligent. This could also be one of the causes for her having a hard time focusing. I think a lot of the material is too easy for her so she loses interest.

That sounds good in theory. Just keep in mind that even if propaganda isn't slipping in, the part where she's forced into sit down and shutup mode far exceeds what a developing, exploring mind wants and benefits from. If you could take a bullet and strike the primer in open air, there's a bang, but the damage is pretty limited. If you instead wrap a barrel around that bullet, preventing the gases from expanding sideways, now you have a projectile that can do some serious damage. This sit down and shut up might be the suppression that leads to her having a harder time focusing during times when her mind is actually free to roam. You know how it goes. If something's your hobby, as soon as you feel as if you HAVE to do it, it's not as appealing.

 

Ok, I might totally be wrong about this. I'm under the impression that having structure leads to the ability to focus & be motivated.

This kind of goes back to the first point I had made. Structure from within is a form of self-motivation. Structure from without risks things like evasion and worst of all, conditioning somebody to do something not because it's sensible or productive, but to avoid consequences.

 

If I allow my daughter to only do fun things, how will she be when she's required to do something difficult? I want her to be able to follow through with things that are challenging & not give up.

Can you give an example of something difficult? The reason I ask is because I'm not sure I agree that "fun" and "difficult" are mutually exclusive. I got the walking and talking idea from Stef, but that's why I brought it up. Things like walking, talking, and even writing are difficult. The payoff is amazing though. Those things come with lots of failure. But if we embrace failure, we can use it as motivation to persist and best challenges.

 

I hope that's helpful for your daughter.

[brucethecollie]

I was wondering what other parents out there do in order to provide structure for their children.  Just recently, my child has been showing behaviors that are similar to children with ADHD. (I hesitate to call it that since I think ADHD is a blanket term for behaviors that are a result of ineffective parenting, but the similarities exist) As of now, they are very mild and I'd like to tackle this problem before it turns into a larger behavioral problem.

 

An example of my daughters behaviors that concerns me is her difficulty in following directions. When she's at soccer practice, she has a hard time doing a drill if it has more that two steps or so. Part of that problem is from her not listening to the coach while he explains things. She gets distracted very easily & will mess around with the other girls instead of listening. The other girls her age are far better at paying attention & knowing what they're supposed to do. (It's not that she isn't interested in soccer, it's one of her favorite things)

 

I grew up without any structure so I'm learning & working on attaining that for myself as well. I know I have to lead by example. I've tried following a set schedule but that rarely ends up being successful. There are many things I know I can improve on. One example is I always clean up after my daughter instead of having her do it. It just feels easier/faster than pleading with her to do it, but I know this is probably bad for her in the long run. I'm frustrated with myself for not having been better with this. I have a hard time balancing between being an assertive responsible parent & allowing my daughter to do what she pleases. My daughter is a good kid & is very cooperative. I know I can reverse this trend.

 

Am I wrong in linking these behavioral problems to a lack of structure? What are some other age appropriate responsibilities to give to a 6 or 7 year old? Also, are there any games or activities that might help improve her focus?

I would appreciate any advice!

Just one thing I wanted to mention...anecdotaly...I grew up in a house where neither parent was particularly neat and tidy.  We kids were constantly yelled at to clean our rooms and rarely did we listen.  Now as a parent, I've been working on breaking out of the habit of basically being somewhat of a slob.  The past few years I've managed to make huge improvements with keeping the house not just clean but also neat.  I go in my kids room when they are in there playing to pick up once a day.  They usually stop playing and help me.  And in doing, I think they learn.  I don't ask them to help me and I don't complain.  I think this makes it easier for them to help me.  The few times they don't help me I just go around them continuing my job and I think they appreciate that I let them be.  Anyway, I was surprised by this because I didn't think they would usually want to pitch in but they do.  So I'm wondering if more than anything, our example is what speaks to them.  My husband and I generally set an example of helping one another which the kids witness.  Anyway, just wanted to share.

 

About the focus issue, is there anything she focuses really well on?  My son enjoys lots of activities (he is 6) but he has little to no focus for them and yet I put him in an advanced lego class and he is nothing but focus.  The difference was night and day.

[mahayana]

Just one thing I wanted to mention...anecdotaly...I grew up in a house where neither parent was particularly neat and tidy.  We kids were constantly yelled at to clean our rooms and rarely did we listen.  Now as a parent, I've been working on breaking out of the habit of basically being somewhat of a slob.  The past few years I've managed to make huge improvements with keeping the house not just clean but also neat.  I go in my kids room when they are in there playing to pick up once a day.  They usually stop playing and help me.  And in doing, I think they learn.  I don't ask them to help me and I don't complain.  I think this makes it easier for them to help me.  The few times they don't help me I just go around them continuing my job and I think they appreciate that I let them be.  Anyway, I was surprised by this because I didn't think they would usually want to pitch in but they do.  So I'm wondering if more than anything, our example is what speaks to them.  My husband and I generally set an example of helping one another which the kids witness.  Anyway, just wanted to share.

 

About the focus issue, is there anything she focuses really well on?  My son enjoys lots of activities (he is 6) but he has little to no focus for them and yet I put him in an advanced lego class and he is nothing but focus.  The difference was night and day.

 

Thank you Brucethecollie for sharing your story! I've read some of your other posts & I very much admire your parenting style. My daughter puts a great amount of focus into her art projects but so far she hasn't found anything like your son's lego class. We'll spend lots of time online googling things she's interested in. She is completely fascinated with the fact that everything you could want to know can be learned online. She is 100% focused on me when I'm reading things to her that she wants to learn about. I guess that does show she has the capacity to be focused.

 

I definitely have more clarity on this after mulling over all the advice & questions from yesterday. I think I'm just really afraid of screwing my daughter up. It is amazing (and a little scary) at how much influence we have over our children! My daughter is still inquisitive and passionate so I'm going to try to keep from turning the focus thing into a problem when it might not be. I think I was making the mistake of viewing my perceived lack of structure & her focus as a slippery slope that would ultimately lead to apathy.

 

I'm going to take yours & Dsayers advice about teaching by example. Instead of cleaning up after she goes to bed I'm going to start doing it earlier and ask if she'd like to help. I still think it'll be beneficial to get a more consistent routine going (like bath, story time, doing a little homework each day so we're not rushing on the last day, etc...) I really really appreciate everyone's input. Thank you!

[neeeel]

Ok, I might totally be wrong about this. I'm under the impression that having structure leads to the ability to focus & be motivated. To have a weekly schedule where you accomplish certain tasks gives one a sense of discipline. I think kids crave a little structure in their lives. I don't want to go overboard but I'd like to have somewhat of a routine. One idea is to have 15 minutes of cleanup before bedtime. Even things like reading a book before bedtime is something I'd consider as structure. My daughter loves being read to & we often run out of time in order to have her in bed at 8:30.

 

I am always wary of these statements, such as "children need boundaries" , "children need discipline", "parents need to present a united front". Perhaps they are true, but I dont think they are useful. They can be used to justify lots of things. 

 

I dont understand why you would "run out of time" when you reach 8:30. Why would you not keep reading if she loves it so much? Read till she falls asleep, or you get bored. Why would you ration your time with her in order to stick to some structure that is self defined and applied?

 

My suspicion is that its you that desires structure, not your daughter. Do you feel that, if you dont structure things, you will get nothing done?

 

 

If I allow my daughter to only do fun things, how will she be when she's required to do something difficult? I want her to be able to follow through with things that are challenging & not give up. For now, I'd like her do a few simple weekly tasks so she can learn about responsibility.

 

 

Does doing a few weekly tasks, that are applied to you from outside, teach about responsibility? I am not so sure it does. I suppose it depends how you are doing it. Do you discuss this with her? Do you ask her if there is anything she would agree to do? and then, if she agrees, you can point that out when she doesnt do what she agreed to. I am not sure being told to take out the garbage at a certain time every day will lead to anything but arguments and resentment.

 

 

 

 

So where do you think motivation comes from? My childhood had absolutely no structure & I struggle a lot with being motivated. I'm trying to make sure the same mistakes aren't repeated.

 

 

 

I would guess that motivation comes from either a) doing things that you enjoy doing, so you want to do them more , or b) realising that in order to reach a goal that you hold important, you need to do some things you dont like, but because the goal is important to you, you do them anyway. Having arbitrary rules and regulations applied to you from above, does not seem anything to do with motivation. motivation comes from inside, not outside. 

 

I would guess that your issues dont come from the lack of structure, but that what you perceive as a lack of structure came from the underlying issues of your parents. That is, the mistake the parents made wasnt "lack of structure", but their deep seated issues, whatever they were, lead you to not being motivated.

 

My childhood was quite structured in terms of meal times, bed times, rules, etc, and I also struggle with a lack of motivation.

[mahayana]

I am always wary of these statements, such as "children need boundaries" , "children need discipline", "parents need to present a united front". Perhaps they are true, but I dont think they are useful. They can be used to justify lots of things. 

 

I dont understand why you would "run out of time" when you reach 8:30. Why would you not keep reading if she loves it so much? Read till she falls asleep, or you get bored. Why would you ration your time with her in order to stick to some structure that is self defined and applied?

 

My suspicion is that its you that desires structure, not your daughter. Do you feel that, if you dont structure things, you will get nothing done?

 

Does doing a few weekly tasks, that are applied to you from outside, teach about responsibility? I am not so sure it does. I suppose it depends how you are doing it. Do you discuss this with her? Do you ask her if there is anything she would agree to do? and then, if she agrees, you can point that out when she doesnt do what she agreed to. I am not sure being told to take out the garbage at a certain time every day will lead to anything but arguments and resentment.

 

I would guess that motivation comes from either a) doing things that you enjoy doing, so you want to do them more , or b) realising that in order to reach a goal that you hold important, you need to do some things you dont like, but because the goal is important to you, you do them anyway. Having arbitrary rules and regulations applied to you from above, does not seem anything to do with motivation. motivation comes from inside, not outside. 

 

I would guess that your issues dont come from the lack of structure, but that what you perceive as a lack of structure came from the underlying issues of your parents. That is, the mistake the parents made wasnt "lack of structure", but their deep seated issues, whatever they were, lead you to not being motivated.

 

My childhood was quite structured in terms of meal times, bed times, rules, etc, and I also struggle with a lack of motivation.

 

When I had my daughter, I was definitely not ready to be a parent. I had an enormous amount of childhood trauma that I hadn't even begun to deal with. I made a series of very irresponsible choices that led to me becoming a single mom. I take full responsibility for this and I think it was when my daughter was 2 that I came across FDR. It has been a huge influence on my parenting & I can't even imagine where I'd be if I'd never found it. I would never recommend that anyone have a child before they've dealt with ALL of their issues. So right now I'm in the position of trying to raise a happy healthy child while at the same time, work on my own issues.

 

When children are very young, to me they are like a reflection of their parents. When you observe other children's behaviors, it becomes pretty clear what the parents are like. When I see a 3 year old that has a habit of hitting other kids, I'm 100% certain that kid has parents who spank. I take credit for all of the good behaviors my daughter exhibits, like the fact that she has never hit or been mean to another child. I also take full responsibility for the not so good traits, like my daughter's difficulty with expressing frustration. She hates crying in front of other people. I'm assuming this might be because I'm always putting on a brave front. I can't recall one time I've cried in front of my daughter. When you said it's me that desires structure, you're totally right. I'm a little unorganized, have procrastination issues and suck at time management. This will also become my daughter's problem as well since she seems to be emulating just about every trait I have, good and bad. After reading what you & the others wrote, I realize that the best way to prevent my daughter from picking up on these bad habits is to demonstrate it myself by being more tidy, making lists so I stay on track with my goals, not procrastinating, etc... At the same time I'm working at improving myself, I can also ask my daughter to help out. (Like remembering to not leave crayons and paper all over the car)

 

When I said children need discipline, I didn't mean punishment style discipline. I'm not a believer in punishment. I did a handful of timeouts when my daughter was 3 before I learned how effective communication could be. My daughter really doesn't do anything now that would require punishment even if I were that type of parent. I was referring more to inner discipline, like the ability to delay gratification for future reward. There was a study I heard about on talk radio (I think Stef referenced it too) where they offered a marshmallow to children. They said they could have one now, or wait 15 minutes and receive 2. (I don't remember the exact quantity or time but it was similar to this) The children who waited the extra 15 minutes were later found to be more successful than those who opted for having the marshmallow right away. I'm not sure which my daughter would choose or if I'm demonstrating the ability to delay gratification.

 

With the 8:30 bedtime, this has worked very well for the both of us. Previously, we had no set bedtime and my daughter would fall asleep whenever she felt tired. When she had gone bed too late, she would often wake up tired & moody. I see a big difference since we implemented the 8:30 bedtime & she is definitely happier in the morning. (There are also several studies that show children with consistent bedtimes have better sleep & function better throughout the day) Apart from the 8:30 bedtime, we have no other routines. I let me daughter do pretty much what she pleases. On occasion, I have to limit her TV time, because she could watch back to back episodes of Full House for hours. Also candy, this is where I sometimes just have to say no. All of this is followed with lots of communication. She is well aware of the harm too much TV or candy can be. She is fine with this most of the time but she is an expert negotiator and can often talk me into one more episode or one more piece of candy.

 

My measurement of parental success so far has been the level of happiness in my daughter and how often she laughs each day. Based on this I'm doing pretty good but I don't know if this is enough to give her all the tools she needs for a successful adult life. That was the reason for my post. Being born to a single mother already has her at a disadvantage, so I'll always be looking for ways I can parent better.

[mahayana]

 

Yea! Thanks for the link to that podcast! I've been wanting to listen to that again. As far as the organized sports go, we only do them one at a time. When my daughter was almost 4, I put her in a soccer class. She hated it so we dropped halfway through the 2nd class. At the time, I got a lot of criticism from family saying I was sending her a bad message. They thought it was teaching her to give up when things get tough. For me, it seemed terrible to force a small crying child to do something they didn't want to do so I went with what I felt was right. At the time I wasn't sure if I made the right decision but looking back I have no regrets. I will never have her do something she doesn't want to do. She gave soccer another try at 5 1/2 and she has loved it since.

 

I see your point in my phrasing and I'm trying to recall how it happened. I'm on week 2 of being sick (getting over bronchitis) and my head is still very fuzzy. I've definitely found it more difficult to write! With soccer, my daughter is never frustrated. I'm the one cringing at practice when the coach is explaining a drill and my daughter is giggling & starting a grass fight with the girls next to her. I'm overly worried about what others might think. I think of how the coach must be frustrated that my daughter is distracting others. Really, it's not a big deal and she stops when the coach asks her to, it's just hard for me to remember that in the moment. I'm working on not being so concerned about what others might be thinking.  I didn't mean to demean my daughter's goals, I just wanted to let her know that listening to her coach can help her get better. The only time my daughter was frustrated at soccer was a game where they made her goalie. She was scored on twice and my daughter started crying when she came off the field. She's okay with losing but being the one who got scored on made it feel like it was her fault they lost. I consoled her and reassured her it wasn't her fault.

 

We were approached last week by the coach of a club team. He said he was impressed with my daughter's skills & invited her to these weekly clinics they have. (They're basically practices where you learn skills and then you can eventually try out for the team) I played club soccer when I was a teenager and I can't believe they have it now for 6 year olds! Even for a teenager, it was super competitive & quite a bit of pressure. The rejection of not making a team is really hard to deal with. My daughter was ecstatic that they had invited her. I had no intentions of doing club until she was much older. She wants to do it, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Dealing with rejection is much harder for a small child. After the incident in the goal, I'm not sure it's a good idea to let her try out for the team.

 

Thank you for your input, it always helpful to gain perspective from what other parents are going through!

[neeeel]

hi, mahayana, thanks for your reply.

 

I am not trying to have a go at you as a parent, or tell you what you should do , even. I am just saying, examine EVERYTHING. We get locked into beliefs and behaviours so easily, without even realising it. 

It sounds like you are a good parent to your daughter, and are really considering what you are doing, and that is good.

[mahayana]

I don't want to nitpick or sound like a know-it-all, but your reaction to her experience in goal does not sound validating to me. Validating would've been to acknowledge she is upset and feels responsible. That's it. Let her feel her feelings. Don't tell her she shouldn't feel responsible or sad or frustrated or angry (at the teammates whose fault it was, even). Maybe she was responsible, or could be some day in the future! Would that be so terrible? From what you're saying, it seems you are afraid to let her fail. That is a huge part of competition, is it not? A great lesson to be learned? I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, but it's something to think about.

 

Wow, I really never considered acknowledging her anger & allowing her to experience it. Alleviating her frustration & convincing her she wasn't at fault was like a knee jerk reaction. Hmm, maybe my discomfort with her in pain has something to do with her hiding emotions. It's definitely something to think about. Thank you, be as critical as you want. I'm sorry you're feeling hangry, lol. Is that a combination of angry & hungry?

That sounds good in theory. Just keep in mind that even if propaganda isn't slipping in, the part where she's forced into sit down and shutup mode far exceeds what a developing, exploring mind wants and benefits from. If you could take a bullet and strike the primer in open air, there's a bang, but the damage is pretty limited. If you instead wrap a barrel around that bullet, preventing the gases from expanding sideways, now you have a projectile that can do some serious damage. This sit down and shut up might be the suppression that leads to her having a harder time focusing during times when her mind is actually free to roam. You know how it goes. If something's your hobby, as soon as you feel as if you HAVE to do it, it's not as appealing.

Yeah, I have a huge problem with her being in public school! I know there is still being damage done by her just being there. I'm working on finding a way to homeschool her. There's now a hybrid school in my area that I might be able to do sooner than full on homeschooling. You attend the campus only a few hours twice a week. The rest of the studies are done at home at your own pace & some of it online. This might be a good transition before I homeschool so I can get a better feel for what will be required. I also like the idea that she'd have time to socialize with other kids.

 

The school my daughter currently attends wouldn't be quite so bad if it wasn't for the common core curriculum. I can see how stressed the teachers are at having to cram so much into the daily routine. At this age, they should be doing way more play, crafts and group activities. Apart from that, this school runs very much how I would imagine a non-compulsory school would run in a free market. There is so much parent involvement and the principals & teachers seem to actually value the kids. The library is currently 100% parent volunteers. Just an hour from my daughter's school, there was actually a school that had to permanently close their library because of lack of funds. The Los Angeles School District is fraught with so much Union corruption & control, they successfully prevented willing parents from volunteering at their children's library! The union workers would rather the children have no library access if they can't earn their overpriced wages checking out books. That shit infuriates me & I am sooo relieved we're not over there. (We lived in LA for a short time so that could've been our school) Our school district isn't bankrupt so our kids still get to check out books and have music classes. Ha, I don't mean to sound like an advocate for public school. It could be way worse though.

[dsayers]

Previously, we had no set bedtime and my daughter would fall asleep whenever she felt tired. When she had gone bed too late, she would often wake up tired & moody. I see a big difference since we implemented the 8:30 bedtime & she is definitely happier in the morning.

Maybe there's something lost in the translation, but this sounds like a limit from without rather than learning that actions have consequences, the deferral of gratification, etc. If she ever saw you frustrated while being open and accepting about her frustration, then you could have a talk about it when it happened. Ask her how she's feeling and why. Point out that you've noticed that when you stay up too late, you wake up the next day feeling drained and find yourself more easily agitated. There's nothing fundamentally different from 8:25, 8:30, and 8:35. Saying be in bed by a specific time would actually be harmful in this regard. If something has captured her mind or she has a little extra energy, trying to force herself to go to sleep might just make her sleep rougher.

 

If you want to watch a sunset, you have to be there at a specific time. If you tell a friend you're going to meet them by a specific time, it's relationship enriching to keep your word. Other than things like this, I can't see any benefit to pretending specific times have inherent meaning or value. You wouldn't set a bedtime for a co-worker. If you wanted them to be to sleep earlier, you could make the case to them. If you fail to convince them, this COULD mean that your position is flawed. Which would encourage you to examine and refine it, accept your own capacity for error, etc. All of which would be more beneficial for her to see than just adhere to lights out by X cuz mommy said so!