Regretting honesty?

[McBeer]

I have been struggling the past week with a decision that I had made. I am feeling a little better about it now, but could use some help achieving some clarity with this issue.

 

For the past year I have been in the process of getting hired into a job that pays very well. It is a union job, so right from the beginning I had mixed feelings about it. As part of the hiring process there is a test which is divided into two sections. The first part of the test is math and blueprint reading. No problem there, it was super easy. The problem was with the second part of the test. Before the test it was repeated several times that they were just looking for consistency with the answers, so please just answer honestly.

 

The test was (with the clarity of hindsight), to determine whether or not I am a socialist. I am not a socialist, but I knew the kind of answers they were looking for. Instead of lying and telling them what they wanted to hear, I answered honestly. After the test, I asked my friend who also took the test how he answered the questions. He said he lied and gave them the answers they wanted. The job would provide great financial security for his family, so I don't hold it against him for answering the way they wanted.

 

The test scores determine the order in which new people will be hired. My friend who answered the way they wanted is at the top of the list, and I am at the bottom.

 

This job would have been life changing for me. 

I was looking forward to being able to get out of debt and move out of my small starter house that I bought 15 years ago.  I have a wife and two kids to take care of.

 

There was never a question of whether or not I could do the job well. It would have been easy for me.

I am extremely skilled at my profession of design, manufacturing, and automation, but even a management position does not come close to the pay and benefits that the union job would have provided.

 

Sorry if this post jumps around and is confusing, that's how it is running though my head.

 

Here is the question.

Was it the right decision for me to sacrifice the union job to maintain my integrity as an honest person?

[Frosty]

Probably a better question would be why would you want to work for someone who holds values that oppose your own? Presumably they were looking for socialist type workers and probably don't have any issues acting immorally to get what they want.

 

I'm struggling with an employer at the moment after asking for a raise and they're struggling to even give me one to adjust my wages for inflation and they use very socialist type arguments which makes me just want to leave and find another job, so I've started looking to work elsewhere. If you have valuable skills you should be able to get similar work at similar pay elsewhere?

[dsayers]

Your honesty is like all your other property: yours to dispose of as you see fit. "Honesty is a virtue" is something that dishonest people try to spread to lower resistance against their predation. If somebody says to you "please sabotage yourself," I see no reason to oblige them.

[RCali]

Your honesty is like all your other property: yours to dispose of as you see fit. "Honesty is a virtue" is something that dishonest people try to spread to lower resistance against their predation. If somebody says to you "please sabotage yourself," I see no reason to oblige them.

 

Comparing honesty to property seems weird to me, as it is not only yours, but whom you share those words with. They may originate from you, but if you tell someone of something and they take it as truth, you may have lead someone to do a very bad action, and it's indirectly your responsability. A very bad action, as to say, they may have wasted their money, they may have wasted their time, they may have wasted someone, they may have gotten wasted...

 

Is it not universally preferable to tell the truth? Did not Irwin Schiff die for the truth? How many scientists have died for it, in the past? Religious figures? Were they all wrong?

[The Sage of Main Street]

I have been struggling the past week with a decision that I had made. I am feeling a little better about it now, but could use some help achieving some clarity with this issue.

 

For the past year I have been in the process of getting hired into a job that pays very well. It is a union job, so right from the beginning I had mixed feelings about it. As part of the hiring process there is a test which is divided into two sections. The first part of the test is math and blueprint reading. No problem there, it was super easy. The problem was with the second part of the test. Before the test it was repeated several times that they were just looking for consistency with the answers, so please just answer honestly.

 

The test was (with the clarity of hindsight), to determine whether or not I am a socialist. I am not a socialist, but I knew the kind of answers they were looking for. Instead of lying and telling them what they wanted to hear, I answered honestly. After the test, I asked my friend who also took the test how he answered the questions. He said he lied and gave them the answers they wanted. The job would provide great financial security for his family, so I don't hold it against him for answering the way they wanted.

 

The test scores determine the order in which new people will be hired. My friend who answered the way they wanted is at the top of the list, and I am at the bottom.

 

This job would have been life changing for me. 

I was looking forward to being able to get out of debt and move out of my small starter house that I bought 15 years ago.  I have a wife and two kids to take care of.

 

There was never a question of whether or not I could do the job well. It would have been easy for me.

I am extremely skilled at my profession of design, manufacturing, and automation, but even a management position does not come close to the pay and benefits that the union job would have provided.

 

Sorry if this post jumps around and is confusing, that's how it is running though my head.

 

Here is the question.

Was it the right decision for me to sacrifice the union job to maintain my integrity as an honest person?

 

Your Performance in a Slave Arena Doesn't Count

 

They had no right to give you that test, so your integrity is not involved in a coercive situation that deprives you of freedom of choice.  Think of your true feelings as your personal property and they were trying to rob you of it.  Their actions were not only thievery but also counter-productive against their own purposes.  Any test that someone can easily lie on will lead to corrupt union.  I'd say the same for the silly demand that Bizz Skule require ethics courses.  

[Copper_Heart]

I think Steff had talked about this in some podcasts. The core of his argument can be exposed by this: Jews are hiding in N's basement. N lies in order to save them. Is N not virtuos because of that?

 

Telling truth or lieing is not a moral thing in itself. Power hungry people want to make it into a moral action because then is easier to control people this way. The real question is: "Is it worth to prend I am some one who I am not in this case?". Union is a sufocating entity that is not apresiating the core of who you are as a person, but it could have been worth it if your family is in dare need.

 

There are organization that actually try fight unions. Maybe one of those could help you fight against this mafia?

 

Did not Irwin Schiff die for the truth?

 

I think he died protecting freedom, truth was more of a method. It is very complicated topic and I probably do not make much sense, but those are my 5 cents.

[Ace]

That's actually funny that they ask those kind of questions but if some non-unionized company asked the same type of questions to determine whether a potential hire had union sympathies it would be an absolute outrage.

 

I think that you only owe honesty to those who are honest with you.

 

Could you really be happy in an environment like that?  If it were a stepping stone to some better opportunity that would be one thing, but union jobs are usually about getting comfortable for the long haul.  If the union guys are making more money than management that probably tells you something about the sustainability of the business.  And in the future if you wanted to do something else - business owners aren't chomping at the bit to get more guys with union backgrounds hired for their company.

 

I don't think there would be any ethical failing in telling them what they want to hear on those questions.  But, I think if your principles actually matter to you - working in such a place would drive you insane over the long-term.

[dsayers]

Comparing honesty to property seems weird to me, as it is not only yours, but whom you share those words with.

Let us suppose that is true. Who is McBeer sharing those words with? A total stranger. If a total stranger walked up to you and asked for your bank account number, would you feel obligated to tell him? Why not?

 

While I feel this sufficiently demonstrates that it's not universal, morality doesn't even enter into it. For moral consideration, something has to both be a behavior and binding upon another. While communicating is certainly a behavior, it's not binding upon others unless it's a credible threat.

 

if you tell someone of something and they take it as truth, you may have lead someone to do a very bad action, and it's indirectly your responsability. A very bad action, as to say, they may have wasted their money, they may have wasted their time, they may have wasted someone, they may have gotten wasted...

This is saying somebody else is more responsible for your actions than you are, which cannot be universalized. If I'm behind the wheel of a car, it's MY responsibility to ensure safe passage. I don't get to ask you if it's clear the other way, pull out, cause an accident, and then say you're responsible. If they want to know if he's a socialist, then asking him when the incentive for providing a certain answer is a lucrative salary is horrible methodology.

 

Did not Irwin Schiff die for the truth? How many scientists have died for it, in the past? Religious figures? Were they all wrong?

This is an appeal to emotion. It also misrepresents what I said. "Honesty isn't automatically right" is not the same as "honesty is automatically wrong."

[RCali]

Honesty isn't the opposite of reservation. You aren't dishonest if you tell someone you don't want to share some information. You are dishonest if you share fake information. And I do understand you can't be blamed for someone else's incident. But, taking your example of car driving, I'll what happened with my licence aquiring. I had classes with this guy, and eventually went to the exam. The examining guy started asking questions I had no idea he would ask, and it didn't go so well. It's my fault, that I didn't look up what exactly what they could be asking, but partly because of my intructor's words. He said I was completely ready. I trusted him, and, of course, I will partly blame him. He's not responsible for my failure, as that was my actions, but he's responsible for his negligence. And that's indirectly related to how I failed.

 

I can't say that was an appeal to emotion, but one to other stories which very well represent the value many hold of truth. You said «"Honesty is a virtue" is something that dishonest people try to spread to lower resistance against their predation.»

Well, if that were true, those who died defending truth, who gave their very lives so it could live on in stead of them, they were liars. If what you say is true, what I'm trying to do here, which is to make a case for honesty being virtuous, would be lying, and I would be a predator. 

No, this isn't right. I do want to spread honesty being virtuous for my own benefit, but so would anyone else who practices good, for it is preferable for people of good to have their actions know by all.

[NotDarkYet]

My best friend just told his wife that he cheated on her 17 years ago.

 

She just filed for divorce and is taking the kids.

 

Honesty is for those you trust with your truth.

[thebeardslastcall]

Let us suppose that is true. Who is McBeer sharing those words with? A total stranger. If a total stranger walked up to you and asked for your bank account number, would you feel obligated to tell him? Why not?

 

There's a big difference between not telling him the truth and telling him a lie. You'd simply not tell him your bank numbers. Lying distinctly puts people in the enemy camp as you're giving them data you believe to be bad, which is a potential harm against them. Lying is usually done defensively, when you think telling people the truth will do you harm. Whether or not you have qualms with lying to people and under what conditions, I think any generally decent and honest person prefers honest relationships where possible as they're better in many ways to dishonest relationships.

 

So you could lie to get the job, but you're admitting that you're moving into hostile territory, possibly for the long haul, and even helping these 'enemies' by working for them. It's certainly not a preferable situation if there are any alternative jobs of relatively close pay, but with the totally corrupted market many people are working for immoral people and doing morally bad or questionable actions on the job and to get the job, which seems to just degrade the whole situation further. You don't have to fight for morality, but accepting and working many of these jobs is basically yielding the fight.

 

It's not easy being moral in a corrupt society without sacrificing yourself, which isn't a good option either. So if you're going to go into a questionable territory know what you're doing at the least as the move will define you. Living a corrupt life is certainly worse than a few lies, but imagine what it would be like if more people were honest and they saw the tide shifting? I can see why you're having trouble with this situation, it's no fun sacrificing yourself for principles.

[Will Torbald]

Here is the question.

Was it the right decision for me to sacrifice the union job to maintain my integrity as an honest person?

 

Everybody has a threshold by which they would give up their integrity in order to surpass a desperate situation. You didn't cross that line, and you probably knew you were treading close to it even before the test since you know the nature of unions. This is, as I see it, a self imposed test on yourself like a selk knowledge experiment. Maybe you can ask yourself in concrete terms where your threshold is, where the point of "no morality just survival" is reached, and then you can know without doubt when you made the right decisions.

[fractional slacker]

A few abstract questions regarding the OP situation might be: Is virtue always better than utility?
Do you owe everyone complete honesty in every situation?
Are all lies the same, or are some worse than others?