regevdl Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/21/study-of-holocaust-survivors-finds-trauma-passed-on-to-childrens-genes Warning: This is a mix of ranting and observation and sharing personal experience, etc. so I apologize in advance if my thoughts are all over the place. This is one of the many articles you can find about passing on trauma through genes. I am not Jewish but I do live in Israel. This topic has been on my mind lately and now my niece is on a field trip in Poland to visit the Holocaust sites with her class. It's an optional trip, however in high school the kids are taught the Jewish experience of the Holocaust and visit the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem, etc. She's sending photos of these sites which are very emotional and haunting. I can tell it's her attempt to connect to the family at a time where she needs her family to be there with her or for her not to be there at all! My kids are still young (1st and 3rd grade) but I have already made up my mind that they will not be visiting these sites with a class or without me. I thought I would chapparone but even that is out of the question. If they want to go, it will be just us, as a family on our own time. I had a suspicion that getting into the details of the holocaust while the kids are in school passes on the trauma. Now, having heard my nieces experience (she is 16), I can tell she is already traumatized AND keep in mind, she is in a foreign country, for the first time, without her parents for a week...which can be difficult enough! Now, you can imagine my legitimate concern added to the scientific research done on the matter (even Israeli media covers this research) is seen by many in Israel as mild nazi'sm or 'concern trolling. I find this highly irresponsible and abusive but of course this is the "jewish" right of passage I guess. I'm not stating this as any judgement because this type of teaching-trauma can occur in any way. This is what the 'black slavery' I believe does to modern black people..... keep hammering on about slavery and suddenly they felt enslaved, etc. I find it frightening and fascinating at the same time. It explains a lot about certain Jewish, especially Israeli behaviors.... especially in context of the current Palestinian conflict. You get the extreme right who just goes into spirals that everyone isagainst them and ...I won't get too much into it now, but in short, but these extreme right that are the biggest drivers behind keeping the Holocaust alive and viscerally palpable, think that if you try to discuss peace and consistancy, that you are a secret terrorist. LIke super weird stuff I can't even describe. They say, "you are a terrorist posting as a peace activist'. I mean... that is a whole level of paranoia I can't even explain. it's a riddle wrapped in a puzzle to understand how these people process information and others who aren't like them. Even to common Israelis they are baffling. I digress. I think this issues of how we can pass on our traumas in our genes either by our behavior from that trauma that is taught or by activating genes in our offspring or by literally TEACHING them the trauma so it feels real and present it hugely underrated. I have tried using this avenue of discussion to see if in my own life I am doing this to any degree unknowingly. But when I speak with others to see if they notice this in their own life or in society as a whole because I think if we can put context to this so people really see it, then it can begin, just like peaceful parenting, undoing a lot of the damage in the world. I am so so sorry that my niece is going through this but there is no way in her situation to even make it a 'bad' thing. They are proud to go through this. Even though it is traumatizing. I can only start with my kids by minimizing the damage and keep our conversations open and frequent. I've already told my hubby that our kids will not be participating with their class on these trips. If later in their life they want to visit these sites, I have no problem whatsoever and we will go together, as a family so we can share the experience and take the time to go at our pace and deal with the emotions together with honor and dignity and care. My niece's trip is 200 children! (some are from the same age group but different schools). I was horrified.... not even on our 'fun' field trips in the US could we get 200 kids, if we included the whole school in the whole county! lol But that many kids for such an emotional, scary, confusing and intensive trip it's outright abuse. And, she is already calling home everyday hysterical and crying and then when she gets home, she will sit for hours with her grandmother who lost 3 relatives in the Holocaust which will hit her stronger in her heart and knowing my mother in law, won't get into the 'how'. It's only the 'what'. My kids will learn the precursors to WWII to put things in context..not that it makes it ok but that's why she's so traumatized. she keeps asking, HOW? HOW? HOW? and no one has any fucking answers for her except: because we are Jews." not because THEY were Jews... but WE...they already put THEMSELVES in the past experience. It's so subtle. I tried once to say.... you know there were a lot of precursors that prepare for a dictator to take over and is preventable if society will read the signs. And I was given death stares and everyone's ears turned deaf...stick to the narrative!! They always say on the Holocaust Memorial Day, "never again'. They say you either have Jews who vow this will never happen again to THEM and you have Jews who vow this will never happen again to ANYONE. That's really true and I try to preach how this can never happen again to anyone and pay attention to economics, recognize propaganda, etc but that's very inconvenient to passing on trauma. If the youths don't feel the trauma, the elders feel the youths will put down their guard and it will happen all over again....which is true because the elders never learned or took the time or allowed anyone else to teach HOW it actually happened in order to read the warning signs. Lastly, don't judge Israel by its leader! lol I've come to the conclusion (and since we are all or mostly anarco-caps here) that when we see a leader of any country, it's probably most accurate to assume that he represents the LOUDEST MINORITY, not the rational majority. I know Democracy is suppose to be the mob rule, but from what I've seen in the 2 countries I've lived in (US and Israel) it's the loudest minority that wins the power seat. ok, I think that's the end of my rant. If anyone has anything to add, please do! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper_Heart Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Have you read The Origins of War in Child Abuse? It seams to have few ideas that you are expressing here. As far as I know Jews, at least my acquaintances, are some what scarred. "Experience" that you described seams to propagate itself pretty well. I do not know any one in my life who, at least openly, was hating jews, but anti-jewish and anti-israeli sentiment can be seen on the web. Hilariously enough some of that was allegedly caused by jews themselves; for example Ben Garrison was portreyed like a nazi - he is a libertarian - by a 19 old jewish guy. https://thenib.com/the-internet-s-most-trolled-cartoonist-91a92d9b7585#.g2cx7zyaa Very complex topic of course. This genes are trying to preserve themselves, seams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccuTron Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I've read that during WW2 there was The Dutch Famine, I think it was called, Nazi induced starvation. It affected those alive during the time, but thru epigenetic effects, also affected their children's future body weights. I forget the details but it was something like the original starvation affected the genetics of those currently alive, maybe stuck some methyl group onto something here and there, as a survival response, but those changes reproduced, and the children were affected. A fairly pure population study with the Netherlands, and Israel is surely much more mixed as far as those who suffered directly in their lineage, and those who arrived otherwise. But it begs the question, are there epigenetic effects somehow at play in Israel? Short of starvation, are there mental states which would also have an effect epigenetically. (I'm using that word as I understand it, to mean that our genetics are as it were original source code, but environmental effects can alter it, which then are passed on.) ===== Other topic: A few years ago I viewed several hours of video debunking the Holocaust as presented. Before I get into that, another tidbit from Military History Quarterly...did you see the movie Schindler's List? I didn't but had it confirmed that the movie German camp commander lives in a really nice house that overlooks the prison camp. In reality, he lived in a standard basic house that Germans would standard basically build for any facility commander. And it was behind a hill, he COULD NOT SEE the camp from his home. So that's TWO LIES right there, from Jewish Stephen Spielberg, twisting the truth. Isn't it bad enough already???? Why lie? How many other lies in that movie, or elsewhere? Jewish state existence is based on a really hairy reality, but why does it require lies to support it? Because it was lots of lies to begin with? We're talking Commie Russia and Nazi Germany, the two biggest giant death machines Earth has seen, trying to kill each other. I think propaganda was already in use, duh. Russia had plenty of reason to inflate the facts. Out of hours and hours of presentation, some nuggets I recall are the fact that the eyewitness reports all come from only a few people, with highly suspicious motivations, often urban dwellers with a grudge, or wanting to save their skins. They drew camp maps that anyone with any rural experience would spot as nonsense, such as a drinking well near a body-piling area. It is claimed that in Holocaust compendiums, the maps are left out, as being too obviously bogus. Does anyone have access to such a compendium, to check? I may visit the library on that one. Why shave heads on someone who is to be gassed that day? Makes no sense. Head are shaved to treat lice, also with Zyklon B fumigating the clothing (which is why piles of empty Zyklon cans are found), and you don't treat lice on someone who's about to be killed. There was a bunch more material, full of logical inconsistencies. The Holocaust occurred, but which version? Israel's entire justification for existence is that story, and there is huge reason to distort. And that psychology is part of their cultural fabric, to lie, lie, lie, because they are the most godly people on the planet, who were punished for it. Something like that. That's psycho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosencrantz Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regevdl Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 Have you read The Origins of War in Child Abuse? It seams to have few ideas that you are expressing here. As far as I know Jews, at least my acquaintances, are some what scarred. "Experience" that you described seams to propagate itself pretty well. I do not know any one in my life who, at least openly, was hating jews, but anti-jewish and anti-israeli sentiment can be seen on the web. Hilariously enough some of that was allegedly caused by jews themselves; for example Ben Garrison was portreyed like a nazi - he is a libertarian - by a 19 old jewish guy. https://thenib.com/the-internet-s-most-trolled-cartoonist-91a92d9b7585#.g2cx7zyaa Very complex topic of course. This genes are trying to preserve themselves, seams. I have....it was very insightful and sort of legitimized my already existing suspicion that we are taught/learned trauma. I agree and know exactly what you mean when you say many of these 'anti' sentiments are caused by the people claiming it's against them. I see this often and call it out as often as I can. Most of the anti..... has little to do with wearing funny hats and speaking like you are coughing up phlegm, rather.... some segments of the Jewish community behaving as.... communists, espeically among the uber religious, which is not surprising but causes great divides in a statist culture in Israel. It's interesting and frustrating to say the least. they are the 'jewish' form of american feminists in that they see the most trivial things as micro or they play it as MACRO aggressions against them. So it is that behavior that is causing anti...not because of their religiosity, but their behavior in interacting with others. But they refuse to separate the two. I've read that during WW2 there was The Dutch Famine, I think it was called, Nazi induced starvation. It affected those alive during the time, but thru epigenetic effects, also affected their children's future body weights. I forget the details but it was something like the original starvation affected the genetics of those currently alive, maybe stuck some methyl group onto something here and there, as a survival response, but those changes reproduced, and the children were affected. A fairly pure population study with the Netherlands, and Israel is surely much more mixed as far as those who suffered directly in their lineage, and those who arrived otherwise. But it begs the question, are there epigenetic effects somehow at play in Israel? Short of starvation, are there mental states which would also have an effect epigenetically. (I'm using that word as I understand it, to mean that our genetics are as it were original source code, but environmental effects can alter it, which then are passed on.) ===== Other topic: A few years ago I viewed several hours of video debunking the Holocaust as presented. Before I get into that, another tidbit from Military History Quarterly...did you see the movie Schindler's List? I didn't but had it confirmed that the movie German camp commander lives in a really nice house that overlooks the prison camp. In reality, he lived in a standard basic house that Germans would standard basically build for any facility commander. And it was behind a hill, he COULD NOT SEE the camp from his home. So that's TWO LIES right there, from Jewish Stephen Spielberg, twisting the truth. Isn't it bad enough already???? Why lie? How many other lies in that movie, or elsewhere? Jewish state existence is based on a really hairy reality, but why does it require lies to support it? Because it was lots of lies to begin with? We're talking Commie Russia and Nazi Germany, the two biggest giant death machines Earth has seen, trying to kill each other. I think propaganda was already in use, duh. Russia had plenty of reason to inflate the facts. Out of hours and hours of presentation, some nuggets I recall are the fact that the eyewitness reports all come from only a few people, with highly suspicious motivations, often urban dwellers with a grudge, or wanting to save their skins. They drew camp maps that anyone with any rural experience would spot as nonsense, such as a drinking well near a body-piling area. It is claimed that in Holocaust compendiums, the maps are left out, as being too obviously bogus. Does anyone have access to such a compendium, to check? I may visit the library on that one. Why shave heads on someone who is to be gassed that day? Makes no sense. Head are shaved to treat lice, also with Zyklon B fumigating the clothing (which is why piles of empty Zyklon cans are found), and you don't treat lice on someone who's about to be killed. There was a bunch more material, full of logical inconsistencies. The Holocaust occurred, but which version? Israel's entire justification for existence is that story, and there is huge reason to distort. And that psychology is part of their cultural fabric, to lie, lie, lie, because they are the most godly people on the planet, who were punished for it. Something like that. That's psycho. I am vaguely familiar with the Dutch Famine. As with any thing with movies, even based on real events.... we always need to assume much will be twisted, turned or glorified to fit a narrative or bias or just make for 'more interesting/entertaining/profitable' storylines. I find it a bit redundant to point out that the Jewish director over exaggerated the lives of the Nazis, etc. I mean look at military movies....all the American characters are heros....think that didn't exist in Nazi Germany cinema? And the terrorists or bad guys are all the same, etc. So I rarely use movies as my guide to reality in the here and now. And, it's been documented that some directors in Hollywood get special access to the Pentagon info and in exchange of that 'privilege' the Pentagon is part of the 'editing' of movies, you know...gotta' make sure the US military in movies is ALWAYS right. When I speak to common Israelis you get a few perspectives on the existance of Israel so I hope it will help clear any preconceived notions and biases. You have those who full heartedly use the Holocaust as the justification for hthe existence. These people are so few and far and rarely involve actual Holocaust Survivors themselves. Political Zionists mostly. They seem to be the loudest miniority, however. You have those who present the Holocaust with the reverence it deserves but are also compassionate that there are such atrocities that still occur and need focus and attention, that 'my atrocity was bigger' shouldn't be the poker chip of this issue. And there are those that use the 'dick measuring' approach to their ancestoral atrocity as such poker chip. Then you have the religious...which existed in the Holy Land before Israel became a state. They feel this is their god given land but don't want or expect a state to 'make it official'. This belief is simply just that for them..their way of life and they will make due with or without a state. These are the people who belief they are in gods hands. . Some of these Religous zionists don't believe in a state and actually find it heretical. Then there are those that find the state convenient to their religious 'destiny'...so even among them they are divided. You have the Religious and Political zionists....they are the dangerous bunch. typically those who carry out the terrorists attacks on Palestinians and their own people. They are nuts. Then you have those who are zionist but not relgious but don't agree with political zionism (or they don't even realize political zionism exists). Meaning, they identify as Jews...accept the bible stories, but live their life as more traditional Jews, they feel rooted ancestorally to the land but don't feel the gvt needs to hammer this into people's heads and wallet. . AMong these people are nationalists...among the nationalists are divided among strong statists and those more conservative (anti-gvt). I would define the nationalists (based on my obersvations and personal encounters) as just proud Israelis as most people around the world are 'proud' of the country they are born into because of gvt schooling, etc. And when I say proud...that doesn't mean they think their gvt is without fault... it's just like people in the US.. you have those skeptical, those who blindly follow and among those who still believe in statism but work to improve the state. I haven't found any anarchists however my 70 yr old father in law does like my arguments about why a no state solution for humanity is the best option, so that's a plus. lol And mind you he came to Israel at the age of 10 only with his brother (no parents/adults) from Morocco so he was a ward of the state but my theory that he was basically without a father and had an abusive older brother as his guardian makes him more open to statelessness. So even when people use 'anti-Israeli' etc it's such a broad brush and is just another social justice warrior term that sounds fashionable and edgy but only an admission that they have not taken more than 10 mintues to recognize, let alone try to understand, the kaleidascope of differences within Israel and Judaism. When people criticize the gvt it's common for people to shout 'anti-semetic'. but again....for better or worse, Israel is designed to only have a Jewish gvt, so it's an argument trap. If you criticize the Jewish gvt and that makes you anti-semetic but there is no option of a non-jewish gvt to compare to and criticize equally. This seems obvious but when I point it out to common Israelis they 'wake up' a bit and see the fallacy and actually...they reform to new logical consistancies better than Americans I discuss difficult and sensitive issues with, so I give them a lot of credit for that. The other part of the 'jewish gvt' is that they manipulate immigration of course to tip the scale and stack the chips. So they have the bragging rights of being multicultural etc and that's all fine and well and non-jews can vote, however when I came as a non-jewish immigrant and have lived here for more than 4 years by now and pay taxes... I was not allowed to 'reap ' any gvt benefits until a few months ago And, as a non-jew I am exempt from certain land ownership opportunities and I won't get my citizenship for a very very long time (multi-decade) which means I live here, subjected to the laws but cannot vote (not that I would but going on the argument in the matrix of statism) yet any jewish person can arrive tomorrow and have their citizenship within a few days, vote in the next election etc. so this is what I mean by it's a democracy but the 'house' always wins. So when people rant that Israel is not a democracy that's still a broad brush because they use things out of context to support that. When I make this argument with Israelis it becomes VERY clear to them why people might see Israel as democracy. The most accurate way I put it to people in and out of Israel is It's not the type of democracy you think it is. They seem to get what I mean by that. They always compare to the horrific dictatorial neigbor countries and sure..ISrael looks peachy! Compare to actual democracies with separation of church and state and actual equality in all levels and...they don't fair so good. So it's just taking a fine tooth comb to these common rants you see on the internet, as i come across them as well and diffusing them with real, day to day contexts. I simply tell them.... it's ok to be misguided because you never had to immigrate to your own country. you believe what you are told and don't go piece by piece to see if it's 'kosher' lol. But when they hear my experiences of the inequality, then they feel there is a great injustice and that is a good sign that they react with virtuous intent. If they heard my arguments and were apathetic, then I would resent it because they constantly try to tap into my and the world's compassion on their 'victimization' etc.... but when they react with compassion and empathy and a desire to learn more and become more aware of things they didn't know they didn't know..then I am much more patient with some of the gaps that exist. It's such a small country with so many extreme elements, everyone came from pretty much brutal regimes in their past or ancestory etc and then you get the most religious of ALL organzied religions jammed packed in one city.... it's a boiling pot of oil waiting for the tiniest drop of water to ignite it. The cameras are always where the action in but the action represents such a tiny fraction of what's really going on. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtis Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Krista Tippett from her podcast 'On Being' has a good interview with Rachel Yehuda: http://www.onbeing.org/program/rachel-yehuda-how-trauma-and-resilience-cross-generations/7786 Also, a friend passed this related article onto me this week: http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2015/05/28/trauma-may-be-woven-dna-native-americans-160508 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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