Is it worth to relocate again for mainly economic reasons?

[Matt Shrooms]

Hi dear FDM'ers.
 
I've started posting on this forum fairly recently although I've been following FDR for about 2 years now.

 

In a 'welcome' thread I've mentioned that I'm originally from Poland (or Pooland as I call it) and that 5 years ago I decided to migrate to less hellish place - the UK.

I'm currently living in South East London, which is quite dodgy but not very expensive compared to other parts of London.

I've been renting properties so far but really want to buy my own place as I've recently enterred my 30's.

 

I'm a software developer in a big financial corporation, hence my wage is quite high and I have good career prospects here if I stay in this industry sector.

Despite this, my options of getting on the property ladder are quite grim as the prices of property are simply astronomical.

For those not living in the UK, to give you an idea, newly built one-bedroom (shoebox sized) flats in my area start at about £320k to £350k. Even with my high wage, I can't get a mortgage as I'm not making enough money.

Old builds are cheaper but usually in very rough areas (like Dagenham) and are usually either very neglected, ex-council (social housing) or both.

 

My place of work is right smack in central London, hence If I go further out the property prices reduce but only slightly and even If I did get a mortgage for one of those I would be facing at the very least, 20 years of paying it off while spending 3 hours a day commuting to and from work.

 

This is not a life I want to lead.

 

If I go out into smaller towns in the UK, there is very little demand for my skills if any.

 

 

My company recently established a big presence in Tennesse in the US and I was thinking of persuing being relocated there for some time, just to see what the opportunities are in the US.

One of my team members is based there and he likes it, but also mentioned that the best place to be for a person with our skillset would be Texas, as according to him, it has the best ratio of personal liberties to economic opportunities.

Problem with both of those states is that the people there, tend to be more on the religious side.

I'm not religious and don't really get along with religious people, hence I've mentioned this to be a problem.

 

I've also contemplated moving back to Pooland, mainly the Kraków region, which has an influx of foreign tech companies setting up their branches and hiring IT professionals.

The cost of living in Pooland are a lot, and I mean a lot, lower than in the UK, and with my current savings, I already have pretty much half a property there (or at least well more than needed for a deposit on a mortgage).

Pooland has its problems though - it's filled with either neurotic catholics or raving socialists and have terrible bureaucracy - even some left over from the Stalinist era.

 

I know this post is long, so I'll try to end it quickly.

 

Basically, I'm at crossroads so to speak.

If I stay in London, I have a perspective of renting for the rest of my life or purchasing a tiny, low quality housing and trying to pay it off for the next 2 decades, all the while dealing with various problems which the UK has, like 3rd word immigrants, crazy socialists and feminazis, race riots and so on.

If I leave, I would have to probably face some combination of similar problems, maybe to lesser extent but I'd have to 'start my life from scratch' in terms of social circles for example.

To make this more difficult, I'm not very outgoing and change is a very big thing to me.

 

Is there any advice you can bestow on me in this field?

[Guest Kiki]

‘If I leave, I would have to probably face some combination of similar problems, maybe to lesser extent but I'd have to 'start my life from scratch' in terms of social circles for example.’

 

Oh no you won’t…

Please just come to the USA. This is the greatest country in the world. No, really it is…

 

I am Swedish and also went to high school and university in London. Expensive to live, dirty city, snobby people and quite dangerous in some areas. I lived in Bayswater, on Queensway in an expensive flat and went to a shishi school with all the ‘right ties’ and hated every day of my life. I left in 2004, to come to Los Angeles, and I can tell you I came here alone and haven’t regretted it one day. The whole country is very safe and easy to navigate and live in. If you get a Greencard, you will find work easily in any state.

 

Natives like to complain, but this is a very easy country compared to Sweden, UK, or any other country I’ve ever lived or visited in in Europe. You will make friends, write your own ticket in life and experience freedoms like nowhere else.

 

Americans like money. As long as you are willing to work hard, earn money and be smart- you can be succesful

 

Tennessee is a great place; very friendly folk and you will kill it in real estate with a decent salary! I've been to Nashville; they have an awesome music scene and great barbeque. The weather is agreeable and you will like the 'salt of the earth' type people.. I hear that people still bring over oer d'ouevres and pies when you move into a new house. I'm moving to Texas next month, so I will tell you if Southern Hospitality still exists.

 

*If you can handle a city in the UK, you will definitely succeed big time in the USA.

 

Tennessee is a conservative state, people are humble and will talk to you, and also I hear that the southern belles are more traditional than on either coasts. So the feminazis are few and far between… I’m sure you will find great friends and hopefully a significant other very quickly.

 

Also, with the way the tensions are set to rise in Europe, please just come to the US. You will fall in love here, make your home and we need serious people who want to work and make this country great again. I have not met one immigrant who regrets leaving Europe for the US.

Just come… if it sucks you can leave.

 

But you won't- because you will love it...

[Matt Shrooms]

Hi Kiki,

 

Thank you for the advice.

A green card is not an easy thing to get.

To the best of my knowledge, I'd have to be sponsored by some company to come over there and in my industry, I'd have a very hard time competing with south asian born software developers.

They know their stuff and are willing to work for a lot less than most other software devs.

 

I am Swedish and also went to high school and university in London. Expensive to live, dirty city, snobby people and quite dangerous in some areas.

I finished all my formal education in Pooland.

 

 

I ran the Idea of coming to Kraków to my manager today and was very much for it.

I'm gonna look at this option very seriously now as I can get a lot 'more bang for my buck' in Pooland and I'm far less likely to be a victim of terrorist attack than I am in London.

[Romulox]

I'm glad to hear that you have the option of moving back to your homeland.  This will certainly lower or eliminate the difficulty of starting your life from scratch.  Although if you do move to the US, there are plenty of ways to quickly develop a social circle of people who share your interests over the internet, such as meetup.com, or through the FDR site. 

 

May I ask why you feel such a strong need to own a home?  For someone who is unsure of what part of the world to live in, there is no better way to get stuck in one location than purchasing a home and getting locked into a mortgage.  Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of good reasons to own a home, and you certainly may have them, but the only reason you mentioned in your original post is because you are entering your 30's. As someone who has just past 30 not too long ago, I can think of some reasons why I regret purchasing a house and may go back to renting in the not too distant future. 

[Matt Shrooms]

I'm glad to hear that you have the option of moving back to your homeland.  This will certainly lower or eliminate the difficulty of starting your life from scratch.  Although if you do move to the US, there are plenty of ways to quickly develop a social circle of people who share your interests over the internet, such as meetup.com, or through the FDR site. 

 

May I ask why you feel such a strong need to own a home?  For someone who is unsure of what part of the world to live in, there is no better way to get stuck in one location than purchasing a home and getting locked into a mortgage.  Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of good reasons to own a home, and you certainly may have them, but the only reason you mentioned in your original post is because you are entering your 30's. As someone who has just past 30 not too long ago, I can think of some reasons why I regret purchasing a house and may go back to renting in the not too distant future. 

Hi Romuloux,

 

Sadly most Anarchists in Pooland tend to be very left-wing, Socialists or outright Comunists even, which is why I will have very slim chances of meeting someone with similar outlooks on this crazy world we live in.

 

 

The need for ownership comes out of a few things:

1. I'm sick and tired of paying off someone else's mortgage. In most cases paying off a mortgage is cheaper than renting.

2. Renting agreements (at least those which I've had and currently have) prevent me from changing the property in any way. I literarly, can't drive a nail in a wall without my landlords written consent. That is understandable as they own the property. I would have a similar stance if I was in their shoes.

However the landlords I've been dealing with and my current one are simply un-reasonable.

3. I really want to live in place which is suited to my height (I'm quite tall) and I haven't found such property on the letting market.

4. The properties for let in London which are in my budget are low quality and in rough parts of town.

To give you an idea - Currently I live 15 minutes away by foot, from Lee Rigby's barracks. If you haven't heard of Lee Rigby, please do web or YouTube search.

[Romulox]

The socialists and communists will be few and far between if you decide to move to Texas or Tennessee.  You'll likely have to deal with the other end of the spectrum though; the right wing patriot types who proclaim to love "freedom" probably won't be on board with disbanding the military or police. 

 

I couldn't recall the Lee Rigby case and did a quick search; that's absolutely terrible and I'm so sorry you have to live in that type of neighborhood! I'm glad to hear you will be removing yourself from the toxic and dangerous environment.  Despite what the news around here tells us everyday, Muslim beheadings are definitely not on the list of concerns in the US.   

 

The need for ownership comes out of a few things:

1. I'm sick and tired of paying off someone else's mortgage. In most cases paying off a mortgage is cheaper than renting.

 

In many cases it is cheaper, but with a conventional 30 year mortgage you have to live there for several years for that to be true. Right after you buy the house, most of your monthly payment is interest, taxes, and insurance, but relatively little principal.  For example, for my first $770 mortgage payment, only $134 of that goes to reducing the loan balance, even with a rock bottom 4.5% interest rate.    So if you end up reselling the house in a few years, you might have trouble breaking even when you account for the closing costs and other fees required to initially buy and then later sell the house.  Don't forget the opportunity cost of not investing your down payment in a more productive financial asset. 

 

The recommendation I give to people who are buying a house is that if your reason is "I'm buying a house because it will improve my quality of life" then go for it.  But if your reason is that "I want a house because it is cheaper than renting", then you may want to reconsider unless you are comfortable in staying in one place for at least 5 years. 

 

Depending on what you can afford, another option is to become the guy who has someone else pay his mortgage.  Perhaps consider buying a duplex and renting out the unit you aren't living in, or if you get a single family home, you could rent out a spare bedroom.

 

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck, and am glad to hear you are taking a huge step to improve your situation.  Keep us posted!

[NordiCicero]

London is cold and expensive, so the fact that your salary is higher seems off less significanse with the exception of having some badass two week holiday once a year.

 

Your OP is if its worth relocating for mainly economic reasons - but thats not enough context to make an assessment.

 

Im assuming your single (since you didnt mention anything about a relationship in your first post) - but a social circle is important and really kind of hard to get when your in your late twenties. I moved to Denmark for six months and didnt make many friends, besides my coworkers and flatmates but nothing like the relationships you've built up for years in your own country and from your childhood.

 

Im living in Thailand now, and have made no friends here, except the ones I've imported from my own country to work with me.

 

America im assuming may be different, but its gonna be hard to rebuild a social circle regardless. Your obviously also going to be more sucessfull on the dating market as a high salary local guy then the polish immigrant in America.

 

Given the option of poland or the US, I certainly would go for the US. But if I was Polish and in your spot, I would go for that.

[Matt Shrooms]

Im assuming your single (since you didnt mention anything about a relationship in your first post) - but a social circle is important and really kind of hard to get when your in your late twenties. I moved to Denmark for six months and didnt make many friends, besides my coworkers and flatmates but nothing like the relationships you've built up for years in your own country and from your childhood.

 

Im living in Thailand now, and have made no friends here, except the ones I've imported from my own country to work with me.

 

America im assuming may be different, but its gonna be hard to rebuild a social circle regardless. Your obviously also going to be more sucessfull on the dating market as a high salary local guy then the polish immigrant in America.

Yes, I am single.

I don't really have many friends in London nor in Pooland. I have plenty of acquaintances in both tax farms but currently only one person I can truly call friend and I realise now that this relationship won't last for long.

We've been through a lot of very bad things together and supported each other throught. I have progressed, they haven't. I'm striving to improve myself, I have taken 'the red pill' and this person chose the blue one. They have no interest in virtue, no interest in self knowledge or improvement.

This pains me, because I can see how much potential this person has.

 

The only other person I called friend here in London, started to experience some form of extreme depression 3 weeks ago. I visited them every second day trying to help in any way I could but this person still wouldn't let me know what's wrong. They wouldn't talk about it, wouldn't open up. I didn't try prying the information out of them as I though this could make things worse than they were.

This person has now left the UK to go live with some of their friends almost half across the world. Without telling me or their family. Disabled their social media, cell phone, not even bothering to resign from their job. Just packed up and left.

I see this now as a choice on their part. I offered my help. I offered them to stay at place for as long and this person needed (this person's family home was really a bad environment for many reasons).

They didn't take my offer, instead going to live with some people I never knew of, half across the globe.

I hope they find peace wherever they went, but they have lost me as a friend.

 

As I'm writing this reply, I realise I don't really have much of a social circle here in London anyway.

It bugs to think that it's largely my own fault. After all we attract people similar to ourselfs. This tell me a very uncomfortable truth about myself.

[NordiCicero]

Not really, I've had this discussion with many of my friends in my homecountry and generally speaking its really though to get any new friends when your in your late twenties+. University is a good spot, but after that there are not alot of situations where its natural.

 

How would you go about doing it? You cant "pick up" a same sex friend in a bar as you could with a girl. That would seem kinda wierd.

 

And by friend I mean someone you can casually call up at any time and ask if they wanna go have a beer, as the most natural thing in the world. 

 

Meetups for ex-pats etc could work, but political stuff is better. When I lived in Denmark I joined the somewhat libertarian youth movement, mostly for social reasons, and that got me some aqueintances, and there is definitly going to be more of those in the States.

 

But personally I would still recommend Poland, as your sexual market value would be alot higher. And as soon as you have a girlfriend they come with tons of other friends, family-happenings and so on.

[Matt Shrooms]

Thank you for the advice NordiCicero.

Not really, I've had this discussion with many of my friends in my homecountry and generally speaking its really though to get any new friends when your in your late twenties+. University is a good spot, but after that there are not alot of situations where its natural.

I was actually thinking to going back to studying part time, to do my masters in computer science focusing on software engineering.

I would have a chance to do that in Kraków, where they do have some good universities which offer a part time study courses.

I've done enough software development (although brownfield) and IT work in general that I know that this is the industry I want to stay in for a long time.

 

But personally I would still recommend Poland, as your sexual market value would be alot higher. And as soon as you have a girlfriend they come with tons of other friends, family-happenings and so on.

That's the subjects which I adress with lots of emotion - the so called sexual market and dating.

No offence to any female participants of this forum, but my past experiences with women, the information contained in FDR podcasts for the most part confirm the MGTOW point of view as valid: for women the bottom line is resources in exchange for fertility/sex.

Men are seen for what they can provide, they are viewed as ATM's, not as persons.

 

I don't accept that. I'm not some disposable resource. And that's why I'm single and none of my recent relationships became serious.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Matt Shrooms

[Matt Shrooms]

I'm sorry to hear that's been your experience, and I'm sad to see that FDR hasn't helped your perspective. I'm a little confused though. Do you want to have children? Do you want your wife to stay home with them? 

FDR (and some MGTOW YouTube channels) have exaplained to me what I have felt on a subconcious level. I'm not sure if the way I phrased it here makes sense, so please forgive me as my language skills are lacking a bit.

 

To answer your question: I've never said anything about children or getting married.

I have though about it many times and unfortunately I concluded that 'the juice is not worth the squeeze'. Perhaps I will get some new information in this field and change my mind, but for now I don't want to get married or have kids.