To save your breath or to confront? - Family conflicts

[Tweety]

I am thinking of a conflict with my family, my sister and mother in particular, and trying to piece together a couple of advice/ nuggets of reason that I've heard Stefan mention in the podcasts. These are in essence (if I have understood correctly, freely repeated not direct quotes): 

 

-Bring honesty to the relationship (RTR style)

-Treat others as you would want to be treated the first X times, and then treat them as they treat you

-You cannot change a person

-You don't necessarily know how a conversation would go

-You have X number of years of evidence on how a conversation with your family will go

-No one knows you better than your sibling after your parents are gone

 

My problem bringing all this together arises, when I try to think if it would be worthwhile trying to solve a conflict with my sister or not. To clarify, I consider worthwhile in this case as a trade-off between the fear/anxiety of the confrontation vs. continuing a "for appearances only" relationship.

 

The conflict arose when I said I felt threatened by a message she sent me. She responded by crying and saying how could I accuse her of threatening me after all she's done for me and that I've made her feel bad and ruined her day. She did not listen and/or calm down when I said, "I am saying how the message made me feel, not what you were doing".  We have not spoken since, just exchanged the minimum amount of necessary sms's during the past year or so.

 

Now, on one hand I'm not particularly keen on talking to my sister about this or anything else. I get a fairly pure fear reaction when I think of trying to talk to her. On the other hand, part of me is saying that I should confront the issue, try to solve the conflict and see if our relationship could be repaired. Further, our mother is telling me to contact my sister and saying we should resolve the issue, which on one hand makes me think she's making it my responsibility to resolve the conflict and on the other hand, makes me think if I am just stalling with an uncomfortable confrontation (as, I know, I sometimes do).

 

So the conflict, and Stefan's nuggets of reason keep going round in my head, mixed as a nice internal debate, sometimes going one way and other times going the other way. And I keep thinking on the side:

How do I recognise what are my feelings, and what is internalised guilt/shame from my mom? Am I just being stubborn for not taking the first step and confronting my sister (I hear my mom somewhere in the background in this thought)? Is it better in general to take the step of being honest and vulnerable in relationships and try not to think about the fear (I feel the floodgates of family conflicts creaking open) ?

 

And last but not least, Am I just over analysing my thoughts, and how would I know?

 

I hope chatting about these questions would be valuable for other people too, although my conflict is fairly specific and personal.

 

-Tweety- 

[Danske]

I have some problems with Stef's advice here. Perhaps I don't fully understand it. But from what I gather the idea is to achieve 'closure' or 'certainty' with a relationship on a deep/gut/heart level, something that when achieved with close family members will have a powerful life-enhancing effect for you long-term (If I have this wrong someone please correct me).

 

In my own case I am 99% sure of how an interaction with my father (the only person I haven't RTR'd with) will go. His tenuous sexual identity he gets by being with my extremely disturbed and abusive mother is all that matters to him, and I anticipate rage and an emotional meltdown if I am relentlessly honest about how he enabled her abuse, treated me like a slave and refused to 'be a father' and equip me for the real world, both intellectually and emotionally. That is if he doesn't make a quick getaway.

 

The only reason I can think for doing it is that it is some kind of 'trial' whereby I free my unconscious, by confronting the scariest person in my life. All this being said I am completely independent of him anyway, so it would be a completely free choice on my part to confront him.

 

In your own case you also have some fear. I wonder if you have considered ending the relationship totally after the interaction?

 

All the best

[A4E]

Interesting and complex.

 

I think I have become much better at separating my own feelings from feelings not of my own after continued exposure to Stefan. And identifying irrational and misplaced feelings coming from family has become a chore, and those irrationalities do not bother me anymore. It is akin to me living in the renaissance, while they are hurling rocks at each other in the stone age. I am showing them that wheels can be put on a cart to move it forward and transport goods with domesticated animals. They glance and eye roll at it, or pretend to understand, and then just continue storing up rocks for the next stone throwing family event.

 

I still think I have a problem with letting other people invade my mind and decision making though.

 

I don't think I can help you with your problem directly, because I don't know how I made the transition myself, except that it was because of Stefan. You should definitely respect your feelings, but when you are not sure what feelings are yours in origin, I understand the issue, and I had it same.

[AccuTron]

You're not overanalyzing, you're doing a good job.

 

It doesn't sound like your sister is really interested in resolution, or knows how to be.  Add in Momma, and it's sounding like Glue Gumbo, and that is a dish to avoid.  You could tell your sister about FDR, and ask her to learn or inquire.  If she can't do that, she's not really interested in healing.  The crying sounds manipulative.

[Sima]

You are not overthinking for sure.

 

Relationship is a 2 directions road, you have to meet in the middle. Does your sister show a real interest to reconcile? Is a small fight  more important to her then keeping you in her life? Are you important to her?  

 

Ignore your mom, some people just have a tendency to make others feel worried, guilty, ashamed. I think its a toxic dumping of emotions.

[Danske]

Interesting and complex.

 

I think I have become much better at separating my own feelings from feelings not of my own after continued exposure to Stefan. And identifying irrational and misplaced feelings coming from family has become a chore, and those irrationalities do not bother me anymore. It is akin to me living in the renaissance, while they are hurling rocks at each other in the stone age. I am showing them that wheels can be put on a cart to move it forward and transport goods with domesticated animals. They glance and eye roll at it, or pretend to understand, and then just continue storing up rocks for the next stone throwing family event.

 

I still think I have a problem with letting other people invade my mind and decision making though.

 

I don't think I can help you with your problem directly, because I don't know how I made the transition myself, except that it was because of Stefan. You should definitely respect your feelings, but when you are not sure what feelings are yours in origin, I understand the issue, and I had it same.

 

 

Sorry to hear that.

 

I hope you have some rational people you can also spend time with. We do become like the people we spend time with after all.

[dsayers]

The conflict arose when I said I felt threatened by a message she sent me. She responded by crying and saying how could I accuse her of threatening me after all she's done for me and that I've made her feel bad and ruined her day.

Right here is all you need to know. She did not express curiosity as to WHY you felt that way. She didn't take time to consider her participation and entertain the possibility that your experience was valid or otherwise empathize with your experience. Worst of all, she took something you were sharing about you and made it all about here. To universalize her position, your reaction would've had to have been to start crying, saying how could she accuse you of ruining her day after all you've done for her and that she's made you feel bad and ruined your day. How would that have gone over despite her putting this forth as a standard for interaction?

 

"all I've done for you" is almost always a red flag in and of itself. If I buy you a meal, that doesn't mean you owe me anything in the future unless that was a condition of my buying you the meal. Otherwise, it's manipulative in the highest order. It reveals that any act of kindness was for the purpose of inflicting this artificial obligation.

 

Further, our mother is telling me to contact my sister and saying we should resolve the issue

Does she know the specifics? How does she feel about you sharing your feelings with your sister and your sister reacting in all the ways I've described? Is she saying the same thing to your sister? What does she mean by "resolve the issue"? Has she shared WHY she feels you need to resolve the issue? If it's for the sake of her own comfort, then she too is trying to erase you for the sake of her preferences. Which may also indicate how it came to be that her daughter is capable of doing that.

 

What your mother provided was advice. In order for advice to be useful, the person providing the advice has to understand what the goal of the person they're providing the advice to is. In this case, if your goal is to protect yourself from abuse, then an argument could be made that the advice offered runs counter to this. Which is how you'd know that the advice is for their benefit, not yours. Which could lead to something like "how could you accuse me of _____ after I was nice enough to give you advice." See the potential pattern?

[CuriousGeorge]

Hi Tweety

I found this book helpful in learning to deal with underlying emotions of anger in our family.  It talks about distancing as a coping mechanism, amongst

other ways women often deal with anger, guilt trips, hypersensitivity, manipulation, and how when three women are involved how the dynamics of that

can make problems harder to solve.. It talks about how to confront in the best way possible to open up dialogue and to solve the underlying issues.

It helps in how to deal with Anger especially in women.

 

Best wishes

 

The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships

by Harriet Lerner

"Anger is a signal and one worth listening to," writes Dr. Harriet Lerner, in her renowned classic that has transformed the lives of millions of readers. While anger deserves our attention and respect, women still learn to silence our anger, to deny it entirely, or to vent it in a way that leaves us feeling helpless and powerless. In this engaging and eminently wise book, Dr. Lerner teaches women to identify the true sources of our anger and to use anger as a powerful vehicle for creating lasting change. (less)

[Kurtis]

 

 

Now, on one hand I'm not particularly keen on talking to my sister about this or anything else. I get a fairly pure fear reaction when I think of trying to talk to her. On the other hand, part of me is saying that I should confront the issue, try to solve the conflict and see if our relationship could be repaired. Further, our mother is telling me to contact my sister and saying we should resolve the issue, which on one hand makes me think she's making it my responsibility to resolve the conflict and on the other hand, makes me think if I am just stalling with an uncomfortable confrontation (as, I know, I sometimes do).

 

 

... 

 

 

How do I recognise what are my feelings, and what is internalised guilt/shame from my mom? Am I just being stubborn for not taking the first step and confronting my sister (I hear my mom somewhere in the background in this thought)?

 

 

 

Hello Tweety,

 

Thank you for sharing these difficult issues, I can certainly empathize with what you are experiencing.

 

How about taking a step back from your questions about your relationship with your sister and focus first on just yourself... 

The fear and anxiety that you feel towards these interactions with your sister, do you know their sources (what is being triggered)?  Do you have similar experiences in interactions with your mother/parents?  Basically what I'm asking is "What is the extent of your self knowledge?"

 

If your siblings are not self aware, they will be repeating the behaviors modeled to them by your parents.  For example, if your mother uses emotional manipulation to avoid uncomfortable truths/conversations, then it is likely your sister would be doing the same.

 

 

 

 Is it better in general to take the step of being honest and vulnerable in relationships and try not to think about the fear (I feel the floodgates of family conflicts creaking open) ?

 

I would suggest a third option:  be honest with yourself and listen to the fear that you feel.  That feeling is there for a reason and you need to figure out why (and remedy it).  Do not self-erase for the benefit of others.

 

 

 

 

-You cannot change a person

 

Understanding this is key.  During my healing process I was delayed a lot by a desire to "not leave my siblings behind".  Stef often talks about this type of fear, although in a more global sense, when on these journeys that we all are on.  Which is, how bad it sucks to be scouting these new and unknown frontiers all alone.  We want to bring others along with us.  But, we can't.  

 

The only person you can change is yourself.  Your only chance is to become the change you want to inspire in others.  Lead by example.  Your siblings will have to pursue their own individual paths, just as you are.  But, you can show them that change is possible.  That it is possible to leave the fear and live in a place of happiness.  You do these things and in time, you might reconnect with your sister there in that place, after you both have gone through your individual healing journeys.  Only once you have done this successfully for yourself will you be able to offer useful support to others.

 

So, the big question is, what are you doing to heal and change yourself?  

 

Are you in therapy?  If not, that would be my suggestion.  A therapist can help you navigate these challenges.  They can help you establish boundaries and give you support along the way so that you don't have to feel so alone.

 

Let me tell you that all this is possible.  You can get to a point where you no longer suffer from fear, anxiety, guilt, and confusion. 

 

As to which relationships will survive this transition, well, that is not your responsibility.  You need to focus on yourself first.

[A4E]

Sorry to hear that.

 

I hope you have some rational people you can also spend time with. We do become like the people we spend time with after all.

Yes, offline I have, and online here for example.

I have my irrationality proof vest on so all irrationality has minimal to no impact. Also I don't spend time with psychos anymore because I know now that is not good for my own psychological health.

[Tweety]

A warm thanks for everyone's input! And thank you CuriousGeorge, I think the book might be helpful to me.

 

 

The only reason I can think for doing it is that it is some kind of 'trial' whereby I free my unconscious, by confronting the scariest person in my life. All this being said I am completely independent of him anyway, so it would be a completely free choice on my part to confront him.

 

 

I suppose my feeling of "I should confront her" partly comes from the knowledge that I would gain certainty about our relationship by doing so (Trial). But my doubt is part of the thought "Do I really want to know the truth about our relationship?". I suppose that could be a sign that I already know the truth about how things are between us, but don't want to acknowledge it.

 

 

In your own case you also have some fear. I wonder if you have considered ending the relationship totally after the interaction?

 

 

 

The fear and anxiety that you feel towards these interactions with your sister, do you know their sources (what is being triggered)?  Do you have similar experiences in interactions with your mother/parents?  Basically what I'm asking is "What is the extent of your self knowledge?"

 

...

As to which relationships will survive this transition, well, that is not your responsibility.  You need to focus on yourself first.

 

I was thinking about this fear some days ago. It is not a fear of physical retaliation or rage, that is not how my family works. It's a fear of the rest of my family ganging up on me (as has happened before) and of a collective mental aggression and of being "cast out" of the family. I have a similar feeling every time I think of talking about the most serious issues with my parents too. I actually thought a year or so ago, when I started taking some distance from my family, that I had gotten over this child's biological fear of death if he/she is being ostracised. I suppose it was only an intellectual victory over this fear, not an emotional one. 

 

 

So, the big question is, what are you doing to heal and change yourself?  

 

Are you in therapy?  If not, that would be my suggestion.  A therapist can help you navigate these challenges.  They can help you establish boundaries and give you support along the way so that you don't have to feel so alone.

 

 

I am not in therapy yet. It is something I consider on regular intervals. I am a bit of a scrooge, so the thought that I can solve this myself by journaling, thinking, and discussing it with my partner tends to win over the thought of spending a lot of money on therapy. A thought occurred to me now though, that I suppose it would make a bit more sense to try it at least, since I have not been able to solve this "problem" and it has been over a year already. Nice to have one "piece of a puzzle falling in place" feeling about this!

 

Right here is all you need to know. She did not express curiosity as to WHY you felt that way. She didn't take time to consider her participation and entertain the possibility that your experience was valid or otherwise empathize with your experience. Worst of all, she took something you were sharing about you and made it all about here. To universalize her position, your reaction would've had to have been to start crying, saying how could she accuse you of ruining her day after all you've done for her and that she's made you feel bad and ruined your day. How would that have gone over despite her putting this forth as a standard for interaction?

 

 

A textbook example of a non-curious reaction, right? I was slightly disappointed about that at the time. On the other hand, if I would not have listened to the podcasts and the audio version of RTR, my internal reaction would have been "You are threatening me". Although, without the help of Stefan's podcasts, my external reaction in the situation would have then been to swallow hard and not say anything.

 

 

Does she know the specifics? How does she feel about you sharing your feelings with your sister and your sister reacting in all the ways I've described? Is she saying the same thing to your sister? What does she mean by "resolve the issue"? Has she shared WHY she feels you need to resolve the issue? If it's for the sake of her own comfort, then she too is trying to erase you for the sake of her preferences. Which may also indicate how it came to be that her daughter is capable of doing that.

 

What your mother provided was advice. In order for advice to be useful, the person providing the advice has to understand what the goal of the person they're providing the advice to is. In this case, if your goal is to protect yourself from abuse, then an argument could be made that the advice offered runs counter to this. Which is how you'd know that the advice is for their benefit, not yours. Which could lead to something like "how could you accuse me of _____ after I was nice enough to give you advice." See the potential pattern?

 

I have no idea if our mother knows the specifics. She has not asked me anything about it, nor has she even mentioned the fact that her daughters have not spoken to each other in a year. She knows there is something between us, since she mentioned how devastated my sister has been. I do not know how much my sister has talked about the details (my sister lives close to my parents, I live a lot further away, both physically and mentally  ).

 

I do have a strong feeling, and some evidence, that mom is urging me to solve the issue and giving me "advice" for her own comfort. In fact, her response from before, when I was trying to RTR with her, was pretty much the same as my sisters: "You are making me hurt, it's your fault, you don't appreciate what I've done for you". Talk about repeating patterns in a family!

 

I think your point about what an advice is, is very helpful. I should remember to think about the definitions of words more in my interactions. Overall, making the "real time principles-machine" click is something I'm struggling with. It's there but it doesn't always work. Perhaps it would start working better, if I could be honest with my family too (brings me back to the fear, brings me back to starting therapy).

 

A Positive realisation at the end: The problem has been reduced to I fear my family's reaction, which is slightly irrational since I'm not a child anymore. The solution for that could be/is most likely seeking support from therapy.

 

Awesome!

 

-Tweety-

[dsayers]

Talk about repeating patterns in a family!

Yep. Just remember, this is no accident. This is actually why self-knowledge and peaceful parenting is so important. While I'm sure your mother never said "I want to raise manipulative sociopaths," it doesn't sound like she ever pledged not to.

 

On a not so side note, where is your father in all of this?

 

I should remember to think about the definitions of words more in my interactions. Overall, making the "real time principles-machine" click is something I'm struggling with.

In keeping with calling things by their proper names, I think it's important to point out that it's not that you're struggling with it, it's that you were made to have difficulty with expressing yourself. I face the same challenge as you and have also read RTR. I was raised to best others, to manipulate others, to be willing to make others lose so that I could win, etc. To communicate in a non-provocative way was like a foreign language to me. I still struggle with accidentally phrasing things in an accusatory manner. So it will take practice. I just think it's important that you not take responsibility for something that was inflicted upon you. This needlessly puts you down and it spares those responsible from being held accountable even in your own mind.

[David Ottinger]

Dsayer pretty much articulated what came to my mind.   Your sister switched to victim mode, and then called in the so called higher authority to regulate in her favor. 

 

 

 

 

Edit:   To add, this is a defense mechanism for your sister.  She developed this defense in the household you all grew up. 

[AccuTron]

"I am not in therapy yet. It is something I consider on regular intervals. I am a bit of a scrooge, so the thought that I can solve this myself by journaling, thinking, and discussing it with my partner tends to win over the thought of spending a lot of money on therapy. A thought occurred to me now though, that I suppose it would make a bit more sense to try it at least, since I have not been able to solve this "problem" and it has been over a year already. Nice to have one "piece of a puzzle falling in place" feeling about this!"

-----------

Almost twenty years ago...it's been that long?!...I started with a good therapist, a number of regular sessions over 2-3 years, plus a tune-up visit or two.  Basically, we both agreed I was healed from original huge incapacity and ignorance, and however damaged, could now find my own way.  Which has been true.  And a year is nuttin'.  So don't sweat not having solved "a" problem; it's probably much more interwoven than any one thing anyway.  And it's like a spiral, it keeps going, keeps improving far beyond what you may imagine.  Yet, being at FDR, you may imagine very well, since the visions of health, and the pathways, are abundantly described herein.

 

You may already be on the therapy road more than you realize.  I find that I don't really know what's going on with small time scales, until I look backwards over month or years, and see the bigger picture.  I'm reminded of the soldier who only knows what is going on in the ground immediately around him, but oblivious to the greater war.  In our days and weeks of life, we are in our foxholes and trenches and running over open ground.  Only after a long time may we understand the fullness of the historical action.

[Tweety]

On a not so side note, where is your father in all of this?

 

If my sister (6 years older than me) is the twin of my mother in her behaviour, I was, or my previous more submissive behaviour was, the twin of my father. He tends to keep away from uncomfortable topics. Towards my mother he is very passive aggressive, or subtly aggressive. Towards me and my sister, he can be stern, but in away that I've recognised to follow the pattern "observes- points out flaws and mistakes - accuses of failing". If I know him well, to this conflict he would say that it's none of his business, and we are adults and should solve it between ourselves. Although, I have some evidence that when push comes to shove, he will side with my mother and sister against me defending myself.

 

In keeping with calling things by their proper names, I think it's important to point out that it's not that you're struggling with it, it's that you were made to have difficulty with expressing yourself. 

 

I think what you say here sounds right. But I wonder, what is the mechanism by which suppressing another person from expressing him/herself manifests as difficulty calling things by their proper names? Any idea?

 

Dsayer pretty much articulated what came to my mind.   Your sister switched to victim mode, and then called in the so called higher authority to regulate in her favor. 

 

Edit:   To add, this is a defense mechanism for your sister.  She developed this defense in the household you all grew up. 

 

I remember playing the victim like this towards my sister sometimes during my childhood. I'm quite ashamed of that behaviour now, but also recognise that maybe that was, as you say, developed/learned in the environment we grew up in. In my twenties, I did not behave like this anymore, but realised that my sister was indeed using our mom as a leverage against me, to get what she wanted. For a short while I was consciously considering doing the same thing just to "even out the play field".

 

 And a year is nuttin'.  So don't sweat not having solved "a" problem; it's probably much more interwoven than any one thing anyway.

 

You may already be on the therapy road more than you realize.  I find that I don't really know what's going on with small time scales, until I look backwards over month or years, and see the bigger picture.

 

Indeed, in the bigger picture, a year is nothing. I suppose my tendency has always been towards efficacy and problem solving, so that perhaps makes me sometimes think that I haven't come far from where I started. On the other hand, not too long ago, I came to realise that my MePlus may also be "the problem solver". That is my utility to most people, and ironically perhaps, that is also my occupation. My "urgency" with solving this problem now, is of course the rapidly approaching holidays.

 

The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships

by Harriet Lerner

"Anger is a signal and one worth listening to," writes Dr. Harriet Lerner, in her renowned classic that has transformed the lives of millions of readers. While anger deserves our attention and respect, women still learn to silence our anger, to deny it entirely, or to vent it in a way that leaves us feeling helpless and powerless. In this engaging and eminently wise book, Dr. Lerner teaches women to identify the true sources of our anger and to use anger as a powerful vehicle for creating lasting change. (less)

 

 

Concerning the book The Dance of Anger, I downloaded a preview of it and started reading. However, in my opinion, the beginning of the book at least is reeking of feminism. Just from the beginning the message I got is "Women are victims of emotional suppression by men + culture". Made me a little sick. And the type of women that are described at the beginning, I think fill the stereotype of a western woman, but I have always felt like an outsider to that stereotype, so I didn't feel a connection to the writer at all. I will give it another chance though, but these were my first impressions.

 

-Tweety-

[Kurtis]

 

Concerning the book The Dance of Anger, I downloaded a preview of it and started reading. However, in my opinion, the beginning of the book at least is reeking of feminism. Just from the beginning the message I got is "Women are victims of emotional suppression by men + culture". Made me a little sick. And the type of women that are described at the beginning, I think fill the stereotype of a western woman, but I have always felt like an outsider to that stereotype, so I didn't feel a connection to the writer at all. I will give it another chance though, but these were my first impressions.

 

 

 

I have read that book and can see why you feel the way you do towards it.  It might be more helpful for you to read something that focuses more on boundaries.  What they are and how to communicate/implement them.  A book on this that my therapist had recommended to me was: "Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day" by Anne Katherine.

 

The author is a Christian and at times this made me want to disengage from her book.  However, I will say that the information communicated regarding boundaries was very helpful for me.

 

Here's a quote from the book: “The longer we stay in a violating situation, the more traumatized we become. If we don't act on our own behalf, we will lose spirit, resourcefulness, energy, health, perspective, and resilience. We must take ourselves out of violating situations for the sake of our own wholeness.” 

[dsayers]

I think what you say here sounds right. But I wonder, what is the mechanism by which suppressing another person from expressing him/herself manifests as difficulty calling things by their proper names? Any idea?

Oddly enough, the answer is sort of baked right into the question. We are the point of origin in the plane/realm of our own understanding. Everything we "know" and understand about the world is derived from our understanding of ourselves (consequently why self-knowledge and acceptance of capacity for error are SO crucial). If you could be warped to believe that you are anything but you, then everything around you is distorted also.

 

This is why the parent-child relationship is potentially so disastrous. If your parents erased you to any extent, they are creating a false reality where you are fundamentally inferior to them. While this has the effect mentioned above, it manifests specifically in deferring to them. Which means you're now calling them by something other than their proper name as a result (infallible for example). Which is so very easy to do given the child's original and developmental characteristic of being dependent upon that person.

 

I'm sorry this was your experience. I'm thankful you've been able to rise above that bad programming. I'm sorry this has opened up for you a world of incompatibility with the people you've spent so much time with.