Driven apart by Core Values

[bioject]

Last year I met a girl and we've always just been friends although I have always been attracted to her. We talk about everything together and have a very open friendship. In addition she likes many of the same outdoor activities I do (like Rock Climbing, hiking, camping, etc.). I have often expressed my thoughts on peaceful parenting to her and she is mostly in agreement. In fact we talk about parenting and expectations for relationships probably more than most people who are in a romantic relationship.

One area we disagree is that I am against indoctrinating my children with religion because from my perspective it would be a lie since there is no way to prove or disprove faith. I am an atheist and I feel like I would be robbing my children of their ability to question things that lack proof. From her perspective I would be denying the child the opportunity to experience a relationship with God. Her religion is called SRF (Self Realization Fellowship). It is by no means as extreme as being Mormon, Catholic, or even something like Scientology. It is very much a religion with few rules. Having originally been religious, I can't deny the power and comfort you get from having faith and understand why she would want to pass this onto her children. I suspect she has a fairly high ACE score and religion for her probably helps her cope with her childhood trauma. i.e. Her Father abandoned her as a baby, verbally abusive Step Father and older Brother, and a Mother who wasn't available because she spent all her time working on her small business. And worse she not only maintains a relationship with these people, but she has reestablished her relationship with her original Father (I personally would spit in his face and never talk to him again). It does bother me that she maintains these relationships, but I would be a hypocrite judging her since I still maintain a couple family relationships I should have abandoned long ago. 

There are lots of red flags that I am fully aware of, but what always gets to me is that not only am I physically attracted to her, I am attracted to how well we communicate with each other about our expectations for having children, relationships, and life in general. She even told me that if it wasn't for our religious differences that we would date. For awhile I was almost convinced that I was just in the friend zone, but having been in the friend zone before this was different because I could tell she did have a respect for me. 

And that was verified a couple of days ago when we had sex for the first time. It was amazing sex because never had I known a girl for so long and felt like I was in the friend zone only to actually get the sex. But there was something in mind that kept it from being the ultimate sex. And it was in her mind too because she mentioned it in the moment. We both were questioning that divide between us. Her faith versus my absence of faith and how it would probably end our relationship if we ever had children. 

I've spent days toiling how to figure this out. I know I can't change her and she can't change me. Today we talked for an hour and both decided to go back to just being friends because we both know that if we were to pursue this relationship further that her faith and my atheism would drive a wedge between us eventually. Mostly because one day if we did have children and my child went with her to church, I would hate it. Because from my perspective it would be a lie and believing in honest relationships I would be forced to tell my child that it is untrue which would be the wedge that would drive us apart. 

To put it simply we are actively not dating each other because of a disagreement of how we would raise children who don't even exist yet. And then you wonder why white people have like no kids... 

The only way I see this working is if one day she realizes that her faith is a bunch of bullshit and that it is limiting her freedom of choice. But that is almost like wishing for a miracle. 

Yet I am still looking for the perfect answer. It doesn't exist. I should probably move on and find a girl who isn't religious but that is also great at communicating. 


 

[luxfelix]

Welcome bioject! 

 

Having the ability to discuss these things openly with one another will certainly help to continue the friendship.

 

I'm not familiar with SRF, are there any other aspects of the religion that are in opposition with your values aside from belief in (the Judeo-Christian?) God? (And the goal of passing the beliefs down?)

[dsayers]

How does she feel about her mother choosing to have children with a man that would abandon them? How does she feel about her mother choosing a follow up that would be verbally abusive to her children? How does she feel about her mother not doing anything about the verbal abuse? Does she hold her mother responsible for any of this?

 

From her perspective I would be denying the child the opportunity to experience a relationship with God.

How did she come to thinking there's a deity? Let's suppose her mother told her so. Okay. What would be her reaction if her mother gave her an empty box for a gift and told her that _____ was inside? How would she feel if she went through the drive thru, paid some money, and got an empty bag? Let's suppose she claims she can just feel it. Has she never felt water so hot it seemed cold? Has she sometimes felt as if time flew by or dragged on?

 

Since the conclusion is flawed, we can assume the methodology is flawed. I'll bet that whatever methodology she used to arrive at that conclusion, it is a methodology she would not accept for anything else. If you can point out this contradiction to her own values, she can at least begin to process that however reluctantly. But be prepared for some backlash. It MIGHT end up being that she pushes you away as being the one to finally break through. If this happens, she will almost surely eventually be back and grateful.

 

Best of luck to you. I hope you'll share so we can help if she throws you a curve ball. As a Christianity survivor, I can assure her that I get way more out of a life of rational thought than I ever thought I did thinking there was some big guy in the sky who cared and looked out for me.

[Will Torbald]

Last year I met a girl and we've always just been friends although I have always been attracted to her. We talk about everything together and have a very open friendship. In addition she likes many of the same outdoor activities I do (like Rock Climbing, hiking, camping, etc.). I have often expressed my thoughts on peaceful parenting to her and she is mostly in agreement. In fact we talk about parenting and expectations for relationships probably more than most people who are in a romantic relationship.

 

One area we disagree is that I am against indoctrinating my children with religion because from my perspective it would be a lie since there is no way to prove or disprove faith. I am an atheist and I feel like I would be robbing my children of their ability to question things that lack proof. From her perspective I would be denying the child the opportunity to experience a relationship with God. Her religion is called SRF (Self Realization Fellowship). It is by no means as extreme as being Mormon, Catholic, or even something like Scientology. It is very much a religion with few rules. Having originally been religious, I can't deny the power and comfort you get from having faith and understand why she would want to pass this onto her children. I suspect she has a fairly high ACE score and religion for her probably helps her cope with her childhood trauma. i.e. Her Father abandoned her as a baby, verbally abusive Step Father and older Brother, and a Mother who wasn't available because she spent all her time working on her small business. And worse she not only maintains a relationship with these people, but she has reestablished her relationship with her original Father (I personally would spit in his face and never talk to him again). It does bother me that she maintains these relationships, but I would be a hypocrite judging her since I still maintain a couple family relationships I should have abandoned long ago. 

 

There are lots of red flags that I am fully aware of, but what always gets to me is that not only am I physically attracted to her, I am attracted to how well we communicate with each other about our expectations for having children, relationships, and life in general. She even told me that if it wasn't for our religious differences that we would date. For awhile I was almost convinced that I was just in the friend zone, but having been in the friend zone before this was different because I could tell she did have a respect for me. 

 

And that was verified a couple of days ago when we had sex for the first time. It was amazing sex because never had I known a girl for so long and felt like I was in the friend zone only to actually get the sex. But there was something in mind that kept it from being the ultimate sex. And it was in her mind too because she mentioned it in the moment. We both were questioning that divide between us. Her faith versus my absence of faith and how it would probably end our relationship if we ever had children. 

 

I've spent days toiling how to figure this out. I know I can't change her and she can't change me. Today we talked for an hour and both decided to go back to just being friends because we both know that if we were to pursue this relationship further that her faith and my atheism would drive a wedge between us eventually. Mostly because one day if we did have children and my child went with her to church, I would hate it. Because from my perspective it would be a lie and believing in honest relationships I would be forced to tell my child that it is untrue which would be the wedge that would drive us apart. 

 

To put it simply we are actively not dating each other because of a disagreement of how we would raise children who don't even exist yet. And then you wonder why white people have like no kids... 

 

The only way I see this working is if one day she realizes that her faith is a bunch of bullshit and that it is limiting her freedom of choice. But that is almost like wishing for a miracle. 

 

Yet I am still looking for the perfect answer. It doesn't exist. I should probably move on and find a girl who isn't religious but that is also great at communicating. 

 

 

 

 

Religion is bullshit, right? So the only reason someone would use religion is for bullshit purposes. She is using religion as a bullshit shield to avoid being honest about her own feelings. Instead of coming out with a real answer, she can just default to religion. So I wouldn't fall for the trap of thinking that it's her faith that is keeping you apart. Her faith is only a mirage she uses to continue not having to be a real person, and have real motives. In that sense, it still sucks. On the other hand, you're not missing much from her. It's not the faith that is keeping the relationship from being closer, it's her lack of commitment to reality.

[bioject]

Religion is bullshit, right? So the only reason someone would use religion is for bullshit purposes. She is using religion as a bullshit shield to avoid being honest about her own feelings. Instead of coming out with a real answer, she can just default to religion. So I wouldn't fall for the trap of thinking that it's her faith that is keeping you apart. Her faith is only a mirage she uses to continue not having to be a real person, and have real motives. In that sense, it still sucks. On the other hand, you're not missing much from her. It's not the faith that is keeping the relationship from being closer, it's her lack of commitment to reality.

Yep this response kind of hits it on the nail. I know if I said exactly what you just said there she would just get pissed and fog over. I need to move on. Thanks for the input. 

[bioject]

How does she feel about her mother choosing to have children with a man that would abandon them? How does she feel about her mother choosing a follow up that would be verbally abusive to her children? How does she feel about her mother not doing anything about the verbal abuse? Does she hold her mother responsible for any of this?

 

How did she come to thinking there's a deity? Let's suppose her mother told her so. Okay. What would be her reaction if her mother gave her an empty box for a gift and told her that _____ was inside? How would she feel if she went through the drive thru, paid some money, and got an empty bag? Let's suppose she claims she can just feel it. Has she never felt water so hot it seemed cold? Has she sometimes felt as if time flew by or dragged on?

 

Since the conclusion is flawed, we can assume the methodology is flawed. I'll bet that whatever methodology she used to arrive at that conclusion, it is a methodology she would not accept for anything else. If you can point out this contradiction to her own values, she can at least begin to process that however reluctantly. But be prepared for some backlash. It MIGHT end up being that she pushes you away as being the one to finally break through. If this happens, she will almost surely eventually be back and grateful.

 

Best of luck to you. I hope you'll share so we can help if she throws you a curve ball. As a Christianity survivor, I can assure her that I get way more out of a life of rational thought than I ever thought I did thinking there was some big guy in the sky who cared and looked out for me.

Her mother is part of the SRF religion. When she was a teenager she temporarily left the faith but later bounced back. 

 

I've tried talking about her, although my method was probably a bit too blunt and it made her really pissed. And now because of that prior conversation I think it would be even more challenging to bring up the subject. I guess in a way I can't have a completely honest conversation with her because if I did, I would be allowed to continue exploring the uncomfortable conversation in regards to her relationship with her parents and religion. 

[bioject]

Welcome bioject! 

 

Having the ability to discuss these things openly with one another will certainly help to continue the friendship.

 

I'm not familiar with SRF, are there any other aspects of the religion that are in opposition with your values aside from belief in (the Judeo-Christian?) God? (And the goal of passing the beliefs down?)

SRF has elements of Hindu and Buddhism in it. It's just another spiritual religion that takes mostly all the "good" parts of religion without any of the bad or the requirements. Aside from the fact that she believes in a fictional being in the sky and wanting to pass it onto her children, there isn't much else I oppose. There is a karma and reincarnation aspect of the religion as well. I think the idea that we're hear to experience a trial allows her to rationalize the trauma in her life as well as forgive the people who wronged her (since they are also going through their own trial.) 

 

 

[dsayers]

I've tried talking about her, although my method was probably a bit too blunt and it made her really pissed. And now because of that prior conversation I think it would be even more challenging to bring up the subject. I guess in a way I can't have a completely honest conversation with her because if I did, I would be allowed to continue exploring the uncomfortable conversation in regards to her relationship with her parents and religion. 

In my mind, this is considerably worse. How much can anybody know about anybody else without knowing about their parents/childhood? Seems highly irrational (and alarming) to say that topic is off-limits. My family history is ugly, but something I view as an integral part of every relationship I've ever had or will have. My condolences.

[J. D. Stembal]

In my mind, this is considerably worse. How much can anybody know about anybody else without knowing about their parents/childhood? Seems highly irrational (and alarming) to say that topic is off-limits. My family history is ugly, but something I view as an integral part of every relationship I've ever had or will have. My condolences.

 

It's almost impossible to have a conversation with another person around the holidays without speaking of family, so bioproject can use the occasion as a wedge to open the door to purposeful conversations.

 

I'm finding it incredibly difficult to avoid conversations that do not somehow lead to family, as I do not speak with mine. As a consequence, I have been having several deep and meaningful conversations.