To Continue confronting and offering the Light reason to parents or not?

[Anuojat]

Hey Everyone. Been mulling over to pos this for a while here.

 

So an issue has cropped up with my parents whom i have partially seperated from (seperate lives and cities and only connection is occasional phone calls and texting and coming and going sharing.)

 

The issue is that i do not want to see my parents nor FEEL anything for my parents. Neither shame nor guilt for not seeing them or caring about them. Ive already had lot of honest conversation with them regarding my childhood and also my current beliefs. Also talked lot about reason, hobbies, use of logic and also other various aspect of myself and also about waht they do and think about these things. Also been asking and seeing waht they wanna do and waht they believe in and...

 

It has ultimately resulted in me feeling terribly conflicted for couple of weeks. Where in my parents have apologized and said sorry for certain thigns but no other (like religious upbringing and downplaying it). Also my parents have been very mutualistic in sharing experiences from theyre childhood too but refuse same standarts for themselves as for me.

 

So my parents seem to be honest and rational but only selectively, and they would like to meet with me and i dont, and yet i feel i should see them because theyve had several spots where honesty or apologies and regret lies. And yet i feel as if though this would be msitake and another way for my parents to keep me with them.

 

 

1-2 years we have been talking about this. And it seems to be in stalemate where i try to move on but then every time my parents call me i feel stifled and frozen in guilt and self dout. If i do not see my parents or talk to them they will not dout be sad/angry and this makes me uncomfortable because i feel that if they do then they have legitimate reason to do so because theyve apologizxed and lisened to my troubles with them.

 

 

Also when i think about something happy or about my own future often my mind drifts towards my parents again. This is reall getting annoying and i hate it when parents are KINDA GOOD or SORTA OK instead full blown evil or good. This lack of clarity and droplets of reason and regrets from them is very confusing.

 

For your information, my moms still religious and thinks she did the best she could.

My dad is agnostic and think he couldhave been more honest with us about himself and his emotions.

 

 

I have this sense that i could still turn them towards reason fully and get them to be better again and yet i feel thats not the case at the same time. Which is contradictionary.

[dsayers]

For your information, my moms still religious and thinks she did the best she could.

My dad is agnostic and think he couldhave been more honest with us about himself and his emotions.

I don't mean to make light of your situation, but I find it amusing that a religious person thinks they did their best by mating with somebody who isn't religious.

 

Of course I'm sure you realize that "selectively rational" is paradoxical.

 

Do you have any idea WHY they've apologized? If you mother is taking the "best that I could" position, I can't help but think her motivation to apologize was for her own reputation's sake. If my theory's correct, that's a process that she doesn't actually need you for.

 

What did the apology look like? Was it just words? Was it accompanied by a genuine interest in your experience and wanting to do right by you as was their obligation? A lot of times, when people say "I'm sorry" they're actually saying "I would prefer the benefits of you pretending I didn't do that." Unless it came with an understanding of what went wrong and correcting themselves to prevent it from happening again, it's not really an apology you could benefit from.

 

It definitely sounds as if you've given them every opportunity to make things rights. Going back to WHY they apologized... If it's not for your benefit, this would reveal how poorly they view you. In which case, wanting to spend time together would be an act of re-victimization. Since they would basically be using you as a prop to either look or feel "normal." As in, people that didn't abuse their child because it was easier in the moment since the child couldn't resist/escape.

[Anuojat]

I don't mean to make light of your situation, but I find it amusing that a religious person thinks they did their best by mating with somebody who isn't religious.

 

Of course I'm sure you realize that "selectively rational" is paradoxical.

 

Do you have any idea WHY they've apologized? If you mother is taking the "best that I could" position, I can't help but think her motivation to apologize was for her own reputation's sake. If my theory's correct, that's a process that she doesn't actually need you for.

 

What did the apology look like? Was it just words? Was it accompanied by a genuine interest in your experience and wanting to do right by you as was their obligation? A lot of times, when people say "I'm sorry" they're actually saying "I would prefer the benefits of you pretending I didn't do that." Unless it came with an understanding of what went wrong and correcting themselves to prevent it from happening again, it's not really an apology you could benefit from.

 

It definitely sounds as if you've given them every opportunity to make things rights. Going back to WHY they apologized... If it's not for your benefit, this would reveal how poorly they view you. In which case, wanting to spend time together would be an act of re-victimization. Since they would basically be using you as a prop to either look or feel "normal." As in, people that didn't abuse their child because it was easier in the moment since the child couldn't resist/escape.

 

Well i know the apology took lot of work from me, and it was only after my digging my moms memories and sharing my feeling after while she "recalled" that i was neglected during high school and that yes i MAY have begun to feel neglected in daycare. She think i looked and acted fine and normal even if i felt really bad and sad inside. And she has apologized for the neglect in my school years and that also apologized that they didnt support me to become strong againts bullies but rather meek and apologetic and always pleasing.

 

However, this apology came after my mother asked me what i was seeking from her. And i had to tell her that after all these things we have discussed apology would be expected and that she always seemed to slighter away and find some reason not to do so fully. "I regret" "i am sorry you felt that way" "i am sorry i didnt see" ectectect. Was waht she said in the begining of our conversation over a years ago... and once she even told me "i cannot apologize for that which i dont think i should say sorry for."

 

So i think she was cornered with her own realization and this "recalling".

 

And as to curiousity, my mother did once as if i felt like i wasnt allowed to be myself in theyre home and i with clenched teeth said yes. And that was ended by her saying that she needed to think about that. Also another time i was curious and asked her why did she wanted to see me beyond biological reason, was there anyhting about me OUTSIDE of being her son that interested HER. And she could figure out any reason. And last time we talked she just wanted to see me because she wanted to see me. I felt she was needy. Other times we talked she has always been curious as to WHY i want to tlak about these thigns and WHAT do i want from her, but she has never asked me how did i feel in school or daycare before i brought it up.

 

"What specifically was so bad about your childhood?" and "What kind of optimal or preferable parents would you have wanted?"

 

Maybe those are curious questions? But they only happen AFTER ive brough somethign up or if i am engaged in tlaking about my childhood, her "curiousity" always seems to be responce and the "hobbies, mood, work and friends" is what she asks before.

 

I have this feeling that my parents are being nice to please me. Because before i would call them and tlak about all sorts of things in my life and in my head/mind. And they would only be sorta interested and sorta asking questions and making very soft generalized statements.

 

But after i seperated and stopped calling them my mom called and told me "I kinda miss you calling and babbling to me." As if there was something about my voice that was pleasing not the context as much.

 

Also what borthered me was that i wanted my parents to be either nice and rational or fullblown evil. This constant mix of seemingly "good" traits and bad ones made me decide yesterday that i would not see my parents.

 

But this post i think is still relevant because part of me feels guilt or atleast like soemthing missing if i dont see them. Like as i "gave up too easily trying to bring reason and curioucity to them or gave up too soon for her to make move" and also that "I should see my parents because if i dont i never knew if better ways of explaining my feelings would have worked". And yes ive been honest about my feeligns with them.

 

Why this idea of feelign that "Honesty is not enough and i should make them understand me, that its my job to give the RIGHT ways of sharing my feelings and the RIGHT way of using words so they understand and will act accordingly."

 

Somehow as if though its either my job or i havent shared my feelings BETTER for them to change.

[Marshall B]

Anuojat,

Im in the same situation. Mom is super religious and dad has basically come out as an atheist to me but she doesn't know. So sad she can't connect and communicate with her own husband about this stuff. I wasn't hit much(5x or so)) but the threats from an almighty God was enough. Thats what kills me. It damaged my brain and is still and will be forever healing from that crap. Except my folks live down the road. If they were pure evil it would make it so much easier. I'm happiest when I'm not thinking about them. We've had conversations that go nowhere. Nobody in the family talks to me about it. They all just text me "mom is so sad you have to go talk to her". Anyways sorry if I'm stealing your post but just wanted share a similar story. I'd be interested in chatting(PM, Skype, phone, etc). 

[Kurtis]

Hi Anuojat,

 

I'm sorry for the struggles you are suffering with.  I have gone through a similar process myself.

 

The responsibility for the parent/child relationship is always on the parent.  If you are not feeling like amends have been made then they have not been.  

Dsayers is correct when he described how people often say the words "I'm sorry" because they want the benefit of having made adequate restitution without actually having done anything.

 

Have they taken any action to make amends?  (pay for therapy, educate themselves and demonstrate how they have changed etc)

In order to make amends they must continue to take remedial actions until you feel satisfied.  If they don't then they don't really care about how you feel, or at least not as much as they care about themselves.

 

 

 

I have this feeling that my parents are being nice to please me. Because before i would call them and tlak about all sorts of things in my life and in my head/mind. And they would only be sorta interested and sorta asking questions and making very soft generalized statements.

 

But after i seperated and stopped calling them my mom called and told me "I kinda miss you calling and babbling to me." As if there was something about my voice that was pleasing not the context as much.

 

 

Sounds like they are more interested in saying whatever words that will make things "go back to the way they used to be".  In other words, to change you behaviour back to how you were before you were honest with them, before you decided to stop self-erasing for their benefit. 

 

I don't know if this is true for you, but it reminds me of something from my process.  When I was de-FOO'ing, my parents would often treat me like I was a misbehaving child that needed 'correcting'.  They continued to not hear what I was saying, but instead wanted to have a "talk" which always felt like a threat. As though it was my behaviour in the present that was the problem, not their behaviour in the past.  The rest of the time their actions were either emotional manipulations or direct threats aimed at changing my behaviour that was uncomfortable for them.

 

So to emphasize, this relationship (or lack of) is not your responsibility, it is not yours to feel guilty over.  

 

Along with the guilt, do you have other feelings when you think about potential interactions with your parents?  Such as anxiety or fear?  It is important to listen to your body, your feelings are there to protect you.  How are you with boundaries?  And, do you have a therapist that can help you through all of this? 

[Spenc]

i don't have any answer for you obviously on what you should do.  but theres a few things that stand out.

 

a) your implication that you have a desire to see if you can change them or that they are in some grey area between reason and irrationality, and you want to bring them out of the grey and into the light of reason.  if this is your highest priority in continuing a relationship with them for sometime longer, i would suggest its not worth it.  reminds me of the caller a few weeks ago with the girlfriend who wanted to be polyamorous.  yeah, he can go through all the work of trying to change in order to make the relationship work, but why doesn't he just find a girlfriend who doesnt need him to change?  why go through the trouble of trying to change people in order to have relationships with them instead of just finding people who are already ripe for a relationship with you?  particularly since your connection to your parents is long-distance, phone-and-text-based, you can have dozens of those same types of relationships with people here.

 

b)  i would say that standard i would employ in a situation like this is RTR.  if you ask for genuine presence from your parents and they agree and then follow through, that's a starting place.  maybe you guys don't agree on things and discover that you aren't really suitable to carry on a relationship going forward, but at least that realization comes from an open process of RTR.  why this stuck out to me in the first place is when you mentioned not feeling comfortable being yourself around your parents in the past and your mother said she needed to think about that.  The implication i got from your post was that she withdrew from the conversation at that point in order to return back to it at a later date after she had time to mull it over.  Also the way you describe their apologies.  It seems like they aren't being open and present in your conversations, but rather they are retreating and concocting strategies to come back with and being manipulative.  This is just the impression I get, so take it with a grain of salt.  But this is why I would explain RTR and demand that as the standard for all communication, and then I would be quick to step in anytime they go astray in order to get them back to that process.

[Anuojat]

Hi Anuojat,

 

I'm sorry for the struggles you are suffering with.  I have gone through a similar process myself.

 

The responsibility for the parent/child relationship is always on the parent.  If you are not feeling like amends have been made then they have not been.  

Dsayers is correct when he described how people often say the words "I'm sorry" because they want the benefit of having made adequate restitution without actually having done anything.

 

Have they taken any action to make amends?  (pay for therapy, educate themselves and demonstrate how they have changed etc)

In order to make amends they must continue to take remedial actions until you feel satisfied.  If they don't then they don't really care about how you feel, or at least not as much as they care about themselves.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like they are more interested in saying whatever words that will make things "go back to the way they used to be".  In other words, to change you behaviour back to how you were before you were honest with them, before you decided to stop self-erasing for their benefit. 

 

I don't know if this is true for you, but it reminds me of something from my process.  When I was de-FOO'ing, my parents would often treat me like I was a misbehaving child that needed 'correcting'.  They continued to not hear what I was saying, but instead wanted to have a "talk" which always felt like a threat. As though it was my behaviour in the present that was the problem, not their behaviour in the past.  The rest of the time their actions were either emotional manipulations or direct threats aimed at changing my behaviour that was uncomfortable for them.

 

So to emphasize, this relationship (or lack of) is not your responsibility, it is not yours to feel guilty over.  

 

Along with the guilt, do you have other feelings when you think about potential interactions with your parents?  Such as anxiety or fear?  It is important to listen to your body, your feelings are there to protect you.  How are you with boundaries?  And, do you have a therapist that can help you through all of this? 

My parents arent going to theraphy, they arent paying for mine since mine is "free" bu they did give me some books 3 years age on self knowledge which was "slightly" helpful but not much. Besides this and the apologies i mentioned and the long talks. Nothing else comes to mind EXCEPT perhaps the fact that my sister is not in public school but in private one. Though still christian private school...

 

 

About the quote: My mom was more along the lines of "i miss your babling" aka she seems to have missed my voice alone. She certainly wasnt paying attention to waht i spoke in the phone back then since she was supriced i was libertarian let alone an anarchist ect. And few other clues hint that it was more and more about me calling her. Not much similiarity to your experience since my parents understood that this was soemthign painful BUT something which was healthy for me... and for them too to get away from the parent child relationship and into adult-adult relationship.

 

Ive beeing seeing psycologist. And recently (yesterday) we talked about self sacrifice and as it turn out yeah, ive been feeling things besides guilt and theyre ones of fear and anxiety about the mother who WAS but is no longer. My mom wont harm or attack me or "punish" me... not that she could of would anymore but yeah. Fear of my mom and dad abit when i was child had been lurking there. But progress abound since after posting this and seeing my psycologist/theraphist i feel more clarity about that fact that i.

 

Dont really have desire to see my parents because we have nothing in common and theyre not people whos behavior has been one seeking restittion fully.

 

Understanding they havew sought but beyond simply talking to me, not muhc atl all AND most importantly:

 

I think and have pretty good hunch that my parents if they read this would feel and act according so sense of betrayal. Or false betrayal since i never did betray anyone. I know for sure my parents would be "hurt" and wouldnt see past feeling hurtness.

 

"Ive apologized for you and ive talked with you so much, why dont you wanna see me? Is this not enough? I dont understand whats wrong with seeing me?" Comes to mind when i think of my parents now...

i don't have any answer for you obviously on what you should do.  but theres a few things that stand out.

 

a) your implication that you have a desire to see if you can change them or that they are in some grey area between reason and irrationality, and you want to bring them out of the grey and into the light of reason.  if this is your highest priority in continuing a relationship with them for sometime longer, i would suggest its not worth it.  reminds me of the caller a few weeks ago with the girlfriend who wanted to be polyamorous.  yeah, he can go through all the work of trying to change in order to make the relationship work, but why doesn't he just find a girlfriend who doesnt need him to change?  why go through the trouble of trying to change people in order to have relationships with them instead of just finding people who are already ripe for a relationship with you?  particularly since your connection to your parents is long-distance, phone-and-text-based, you can have dozens of those same types of relationships with people here.

 

b)  i would say that standard i would employ in a situation like this is RTR.  if you ask for genuine presence from your parents and they agree and then follow through, that's a starting place.  maybe you guys don't agree on things and discover that you aren't really suitable to carry on a relationship going forward, but at least that realization comes from an open process of RTR.  why this stuck out to me in the first place is when you mentioned not feeling comfortable being yourself around your parents in the past and your mother said she needed to think about that.  The implication i got from your post was that she withdrew from the conversation at that point in order to return back to it at a later date after she had time to mull it over.  Also the way you describe their apologies.  It seems like they aren't being open and present in your conversations, but rather they are retreating and concocting strategies to come back with and being manipulative.  This is just the impression I get, so take it with a grain of salt.  But this is why I would explain RTR and demand that as the standard for all communication, and then I would be quick to step in anytime they go astray in order to get them back to that process.

 

A. Thanks, yeah been thinking about that alot, Especially since me and my theraphist/psycologist talked about concept and feeling of self sacrifice just yesterday. And it helped illuminate to me that, my parents needs from my past were tha lingering desire to change them... that iw as up to ME to somehow help them understand better and better... not them to think based on the 1-2 years of conversations we have already had. Not to mention when i became atheist 5 years ago... those conversations were there too.

 

I feel that my parents do understand but dont wish to lisen fully what i have already explained to them.

 

I would imagine that, as i dont contact them they will keep asking why wont i and waht should they do and what do i want... ALMOST as if theres something bothering me that just if we could get that chip off my shoulder then i would see them again. Trouble is for them that even if they were atheist and anarchists... i dont have much in common.

 

In short, my parents i have littl in common and my childhood grievances and feelings have been adressed lukewarmly and only so-so which leaves very bad soggy taste in my mouth. It feels that my parents are willing to change but only if i talk and meet and greet them and every single time it feels like sandstoen on steel kinda progress. Sure i would as you say eventually get there, but lot of time would be used up and the very idea of me doign that makes me feel depressed and unmotivated to do ANYTHING productive in my life between our conversation as if the anticipation of the next meeting would drain my energy from the times INBETWEEN me meeting with them.

 

B. Gotto re-read RTR first then

 

Also, it was more that my mouther COULDNT find any reason beyond biology and history to stay with me. To talk to me. Beyond "How are you? What youve been doing? Are you well?" There was literally blank mind for her when i asked this... and last time we talked she didnt even mention this as if the whole conversation never happened.

 

Feels sometimes i have to remind them about the reality that THEY dont even have any clue what or why theyre interested beyond biological ties.

[Jer]

Screw the rules. I found these podcasts very helpful. RTR is great, but it's not a courtesy you need to extend to everyone.

 

I have limited contact with my parents and it's on my terms. My mom just figured out that I changed my phone number and didn't give her the new one when I didn't respond to a mass text where she was again trying to play matchmaker and get me to have a conversation with my evil scumbag abusive brother who refuses to make restitution for stealing from me twice.

 

http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/963/screw-the-rules-part-1

http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/964/screw-the-rules-part-2

[J. D. Stembal]

Isn't one to two years of stringing them along enough? You should know within a month or two whether parents should be kept around or not. It took me about nine months to finally decide for good, but I wish I had acted far sooner.

 

You said yourself that you have no desire to see them. Rip the band-aid off, and go no contact. What's holding you back?

[dsayers]

Screw the rules. I found these podcasts very helpful. RTR is great, but it's not a courtesy you need to extend to everyone.

Quoted for emphasis. You don't need to tolerate the intolerant. Or be kind to the cruel. And so on. One of the biggest problems "we" face from "within" is that we've come to believe our abusers on things such as truth and kindness are virtues, meaning ANY deviation from them implicates you. It's simply not the case.

[Anuojat]

Screw the rules. I found these podcasts very helpful. RTR is great, but it's not a courtesy you need to extend to everyone.

 

I have limited contact with my parents and it's on my terms. My mom just figured out that I changed my phone number and didn't give her the new one when I didn't respond to a mass text where she was again trying to play matchmaker and get me to have a conversation with my evil scumbag abusive brother who refuses to make restitution for stealing from me twice.

 

http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/963/screw-the-rules-part-1

http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/964/screw-the-rules-part-2

 

That is horrible. I am glad you got new phone number as fast as possible.

 

And yeah ive lisened to these before and found them useful.

However not quite as usefuk enough to solve what i am talking here.

 

Isn't one to two years of stringing them along enough? You should know within a month or two whether parents should be kept around or not. It took me about nine months to finally decide for good, but I wish I had acted far sooner.

 

You said yourself that you have no desire to see them. Rip the band-aid off, and go no contact. What's holding you back?

 

I think what holding me back is GUILT. That did give them right arguements, wasnt curious enough about them or theyre positions and that i didnt argue rationally enough and got too emotional when my parents fogged (especially mom) and made bad logically fallicious counterter points. That i should go back and try again better. And that if i do not my mom will just be confused aqnd sad and thats not just her acting up but me genuinelily not trying as well i could have as rational person. Not being curious enough too.

 

As i wrote this, i realixed that i know what my moms likes are but remember very little what she said when i was kid AND that with father it was a connection on both so i think better slightly more rational dad draws my emphatic side in.

 

Quoted for emphasis. You don't need to tolerate the intolerant. Or be kind to the cruel. And so on. One of the biggest problems "we" face from "within" is that we've come to believe our abusers on things such as truth and kindness are virtues, meaning ANY deviation from them implicates you. It's simply not the case.