Sayo Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 Below is an excerpt of a conversation I just had with an old friend I was recently reunited with. The subject was on student protests at university campuses all over the country (South Africa) for "free education" or #feesmustfall. The protests started off relatively peaceful but have since turned violent, as she illustrates; "...they have become absolute animals. During the exams they entered the exam venue, threw around bottles filled with pee and feces and pee'd in the venue.That is inhumane and disgusting". She is a law student and I am a self taught web-developer and 3d generalist we are around the same age early to mid 20's. I am "You" and she is "Jane Doe" (not real name ) Jane Doe: Free education is more necessary and important than you may even realise. If our economy is ever to improve, the youth, the young people of South Africa have to be empowered and have to be educated in order for our country and society to even stand a chance in the future. Right now it seems as though our future is in the hands of a bunch of ignorant, idiotic, twerking people. And I don't see how we can survive that. Our youth needs to be empowered, educated and they need to become interested and involved in the affairs of this country. In Germany, education is practically free. They have educated young people who are interested in their future and their countries future, they are more water conscious than we are. In Europe you do not find swimming pools in every single yard, only truly rich people with villas and massive homes have swimming pools, and they are not nearly as wasteful with their water as we are. The people in our government need to be educated, we cannot be content with having uneducated and ignorant leaders making decisions for us. This movement is very important. But the way the students are going about it is just, ridiculous. And it will not happen unless we get rid of Zuma, he says there is no money for education, he has announced that there will be zero increment for next year, and then he raises taxes and whatever else he can. Claims there is no money, and then he goes and buys himself a plane. If he is allowed to continue running this country, if he is allowed to run for a third term, which is against the Constitution, our country will end up worse than Zimbabwe You: For me the most interesting thing to some out of all this is the amount of passion you have shown me for the subject. I use whatsapp on my PC and both your replies fill the entire screen. Its nice to see some fire in you You: come* Jane Doe: Well I have fire in me, I am passionate about things. You: I like the fact that you are putting together an argument and perhaps I ought to take time to look into it further. But first I feel compelled to point out something things that irritate me right off the bat. This is not a rebuttal but rather some things that I find annoying alright. You: the first thing is the first word: free. You: really? who could possibly be against free education You: I am all for free education, free housing, free food, free cars free whatever you can get your hands onto You: Hell, I'm first in line for that shit! You: You'd have to be some kind of jerk to be against free education who would bother arguing with someone over that. I know I wouldn't. You: Now obviously you know more about arguing a point than me, but I would call this a reverse straw-man. Thing is, it's not free. So can we stop using the phrase "free education" I'm not that smart but this is insulting even to my intelligence. You: I don't mind people arguing a point for state or whatever funded education but please do it without insulting me. Jane Doe: I am not insulting you in any way. Protesting for fees must fall is not laughable, I know education cannot be free. I mean that education needs to be affordable for people from all walks of life. You: Okay, lets use the proper words. That is all I am saying. I mean you wouldn't want to call rape offensive love making or war a "kinetic action", wait, didn't Obama...? Nevermind! You: putting my political jokes aside (sounds like Assad?) my second point of contention is incidentally, the second word: Education. You: I am curious as to what "education" means to you. what is it? Jane Doe: What's your problem with the "Education" Jane Doe: I'm actually busy studying and trying to get an education right now, so we can talk about this later You: Fair enough. And I think you mean to say "educate myself". This country is gone. CNN image of protest While the reality on the ground is more like this image in front of parliament.
RCali Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 "Water conscious". Better not use too much, or there'll be none left in the planet!
A4E Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 If it is a public debate that other people can see, then it is worth having. If it is a private debate, then perhaps your time is better spent trying to figure out a more public way to get your word out. Also it will feel like a heavy burden on an old friend if you put all the new things you have learned from here onto their shoulders. I would say you could take a break from discussing this with your friend, and rather slowly touch on the subject at a later time when you think Jane Doe would feel more comfortable talking about it.
dsayers Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 Jane Doe: Free education is more necessary and important than you may even realise. If our economy is ever to improve, the youth, the young people of South Africa have to be empowered and have to be educated in order for our country and society to even stand a chance in the future. Right now it seems as though our future is in the hands of a bunch of ignorant, idiotic, twerking people. And I don't see how we can survive that. Our youth needs to be empowered, educated and they need to become interested and involved in the affairs of this country. *vomit* Trying to pass off lazy selfishness as benevolence is appalling. How do you empower people by stealing from them? If she thinks education is so important, why is she studying law? What is she doing for "the movement" exactly? Clearly it's not research because if she claims that "education needs to be affordable for people from all walks of life," she should be looking into WHY it's so expensive in the first place. Because when you find that it's State power, then it seems odd to appeal to State power (or choose to bathe in it by studying law) for a solution. It's like trumpeting that all bipedals deserve to be able to walk, then turning to the guy who broke your legs to ask him to steal from your neighbor and buy you a pair of crutches. Does she not get that artificially rigging the game to make somebody part of a "protected class" is the opposite of empowering them? For those who haven't yet checked out Stef's recent chat with Bill Whittle called the Death of Political Correctness, I recommend it. They talk about this entitlement and willingness to follow people who are loud rather than people who are correct.
Sayo Posted November 26, 2015 Author Posted November 26, 2015 "Water conscious". Better not use too much, or there'll be none left in the planet! Oh yeah, there is some kind of water crisis in the country right now, that's why she went off onto that seemingly random topic. Just think California drought but replace all the illegals with lions. You get the idea. If it is a public debate that other people can see, then it is worth having. If it is a private debate, then perhaps your time is better spent trying to figure out a more public way to get your word out. Also it will feel like a heavy burden on an old friend if you put all the new things you have learned from here onto their shoulders. I would say you could take a break from discussing this with your friend, and rather slowly touch on the subject at a later time when you think Jane Doe would feel more comfortable talking about it. Great point. It really turned on a light bulb for me. I love arguments almost as much as I love online multiplayer games. Sure I could, when I finally calm down, look at what she is saying, do a close analysis put her argument into standard form number the premises and conclusion while teasing out any relevant hidden premises. And if her argument is strong enough logically then, why, I may even have to go do some research about how great the German education system is... And say I come back with a rebuttal. One that I had poured my heart and soul into with original not ripped-straight-from-steff analogies. An argument that is as strong as you could hope an inductive argument to be. What then? Well I predict that she will move the goal post like I had not even said anything. You can already see that foreshadowed here when I call her out on using the phrase "Free Education". she says yeah of course its not free and moves right along. No reflection, no "sorry I shouldn't have poisoned the well like that", no nothing. I am seriously thinking about what you said about seeing if there is a way to get the word out more publicly because if I am always going to be expanding this kind of energy only to have eyes rolled back at me I'd rather it be on a grander stage (even a blog read by 5 people is better than what I am doing now). I'm glad I stopped myself before I became too emotionally invested in an argument that is almost certain to be futile. 2
LovePrevails Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 just direct them to videos by the expert, James Tooley why reinvent the wheel?
Matthew Ed Moran Posted November 27, 2015 Posted November 27, 2015 Below is an excerpt of a conversation I just had with an old friend I was recently reunited with. The subject was on student protests at university campuses all over the country (South Africa) for "free education" or #feesmustfall. The protests started off relatively peaceful but have since turned violent, as she illustrates; "...they have become absolute animals. During the exams they entered the exam venue, threw around bottles filled with pee and feces and pee'd in the venue.That is inhumane and disgusting". She is a law student and I am a self taught web-developer and 3d generalist we are around the same age early to mid 20's. I am "You" and she is "Jane Doe" (not real name ) Jane Doe: Free education is more necessary and important than you may even realise. If our economy is ever to improve, the youth, the young people of South Africa have to be empowered and have to be educated in order for our country and society to even stand a chance in the future. Right now it seems as though our future is in the hands of a bunch of ignorant, idiotic, twerking people. And I don't see how we can survive that. Our youth needs to be empowered, educated and they need to become interested and involved in the affairs of this country. In Germany, education is practically free. They have educated young people who are interested in their future and their countries future, they are more water conscious than we are. In Europe you do not find swimming pools in every single yard, only truly rich people with villas and massive homes have swimming pools, and they are not nearly as wasteful with their water as we are. The people in our government need to be educated, we cannot be content with having uneducated and ignorant leaders making decisions for us. This movement is very important. But the way the students are going about it is just, ridiculous. And it will not happen unless we get rid of Zuma, he says there is no money for education, he has announced that there will be zero increment for next year, and then he raises taxes and whatever else he can. Claims there is no money, and then he goes and buys himself a plane. If he is allowed to continue running this country, if he is allowed to run for a third term, which is against the Constitution, our country will end up worse than Zimbabwe You: For me the most interesting thing to some out of all this is the amount of passion you have shown me for the subject. I use whatsapp on my PC and both your replies fill the entire screen. Its nice to see some fire in you You: come* Jane Doe: Well I have fire in me, I am passionate about things. You: I like the fact that you are putting together an argument and perhaps I ought to take time to look into it further. But first I feel compelled to point out something things that irritate me right off the bat. This is not a rebuttal but rather some things that I find annoying alright. You: the first thing is the first word: free. You: really? who could possibly be against free education You: I am all for free education, free housing, free food, free cars free whatever you can get your hands onto You: Hell, I'm first in line for that shit! You: You'd have to be some kind of jerk to be against free education who would bother arguing with someone over that. I know I wouldn't. You: Now obviously you know more about arguing a point than me, but I would call this a reverse straw-man. Thing is, it's not free. So can we stop using the phrase "free education" I'm not that smart but this is insulting even to my intelligence. You: I don't mind people arguing a point for state or whatever funded education but please do it without insulting me. Jane Doe: I am not insulting you in any way. Protesting for fees must fall is not laughable, I know education cannot be free. I mean that education needs to be affordable for people from all walks of life. You: Okay, lets use the proper words. That is all I am saying. I mean you wouldn't want to call rape offensive love making or war a "kinetic action", wait, didn't Obama...? Nevermind! You: putting my political jokes aside (sounds like Assad?) my second point of contention is incidentally, the second word: Education. You: I am curious as to what "education" means to you. what is it? Jane Doe: What's your problem with the "Education" Jane Doe: I'm actually busy studying and trying to get an education right now, so we can talk about this later You: Fair enough. And I think you mean to say "educate myself". This country is gone. CNN image of protest 151022103058-south-africa-students-protest-tuition-irpt-large-169.jpg While the reality on the ground is more like this image in front of parliament. fees-must-fall.jpg Hey Free education is more necessary and important than you may even realise. .. Is not an argument If our economy is ever to improve, the youth, the young people of South Africa have to be empowered and have to be educated in order for our country and society to even stand a chance in the future. Is also not an argument. You can do this for about every live of what she said, and you will notice she does not make a single argument. If you think she makes a single argument, please point me to it in case I missed it. Otherwise, she is just saying things. This is what propaganda does, so I'm not sure I'd hold this against her or feel the need to rebut what she is saying. I think I would try to help her understand that she is not making arguments. For instance, "free education" is a contradiction in terms. If education is a good, then it cannot be free, because goods by definition are scarce. This is basic economics, so she is clearly not thinking well. She does not explicate what the importance of "realizing" about "unicorns" is. She says they are important, but so what? Is she just sharing her preference with you? Is she claiming this preference should be universal? Is she threatening you? I wouldn't accuse her of this, but to me it sounds a little to much like Tony from down the block telling me how "necessary" and "important" it is that I realize he's going to going to give me the best protection that's around. If our economy is ever to improve, the youth, the young people of South Africa have to be empowered and have to be educated in order for our country and society to even stand a chance in the future. Okay, so once again we witness some severe propaganda and nationalism being spewed here here. Societies and countries don't exist. Maybe she is personally insecure about how she can make money in a free market. Maybe she personally "won't stand a chance" if people are not being stolen from on her behalf. It would not be the first time a women used the state for her personal benefit. Just point out that she is not making arguments and help her make arguments. If she is resistant, then you will at least know she is a dangerous and/or dumb propaganda bot, and I believe at that point you will decide this person cannot really be a friend, since they are holding a gun to you. I'd be interested to know how it goes
ResidingOnEarth Posted November 28, 2015 Posted November 28, 2015 You: Okay, lets use the proper words. That is all I am saying. I mean you wouldn't want to call rape offensive love making or war a "kinetic action", wait, didn't Obama...? Nevermind! This made me LOL! Witty. I am at the point now where -- during conversations -- I'll try and quickly figure out whether the person I'm talking to knows how to think or not. If they don't and they're not interested in learning from me, I won't waste my time on them. Personally, I've wasted enough time already on people like your Jane Doe. There are so~ many of them. My recommendation (take it or leave it): learn how to spot the people that are willing and able to learn from you and spend your energy on them. They're the kind of people that will probably be able to teach you stuff too. I am seriously thinking about what you said about seeing if there is a way to get the word out more publicly because if I am always going to be expanding this kind of energy only to have eyes rolled back at me I'd rather it be on a grander stage (even a blog read by 5 people is better than what I am doing now). I'm glad I stopped myself before I became too emotionally invested in an argument that is almost certain to be futile. You're doing it right now and I for one am reading what you write and enjoying it
Des Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 all over the country (South Africa) I'm delighted that I'm not the only person making posts on freedomainradio, whilst living in South Africa. Now I am asking myself how much else you and I have in common, besides geography, freedomainradio and friends who have trouble with rational thought.
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