Is it ever appropriate to philosophically challenge another parent's child?

[regevdl]

I want to briefly share a little background and a recent experience and get your thought.  

 

I live in a very VERY tiny village in Israel.  There are maybe 200 people in my village.  1 mile away there is another village with even fewer people.  Beyond that, there is no one for about a 40 mile radius.  So.... we are in a bubble.  It's tight nit, no police, self-governed for the most part but there are families who don't get along and such but it's a bonded community as well.  

 

There is 1 family who has been ostracized by most because of their extremist views and behavior.  This extremists family has only 1 ally. The 'ally' is a family with an American husband and an Israeli-British wife.  I am not only non Jew in the community, besides my kids.  There were a few other non-Jews who came decades ago but they converted to reform Judiasim just to speed up their immigration process. 

 

Concidentally I don't know the 'ally' family very well but over time I sort of got the feeling they were on the very conservative/extreme side (conservative does not necessarily equate to American political definitions...some yes and some no). 

 

Anyway, last weekend, out of the blue they invited us for dinner at their house.  We graciously accepted.  I have never had a bad encounter with them so I don't mind getting to know people better until they show me a reason not to (case in point their 'ally the extremists').  

 

The night was going very well, dinner was exceptional and it was enjoyable.  The kids were playing well together, etc.  

 

The dad (the American) is apparently an exceptional cook so he was discussing particular cooking shows that he enjoys watching.  The son chimed in providing more details about one particular show his father likes the best.  I was not familiar with the show but listened to his opinion.  The boy said in the end, "but he's a bad man.".  I was stunned by this especially after they praised his cooking show etc.  I asked why is he a bad man.  The boy (who is 11 years old BTW), said, "he cooks with bacon and that makes him a very bad man."

 

I am not one to hold my tongue but this was quite startling to me in terms of how to handle it.  I swallowed my tongue and it's been bugging me since because it was a missed opportunity.  

 

In my mind, I replay it like this:

 

Boy: he's a bad man because he cooks with bacon."

me:  is he Jewish?

boy: No.

Me:  So anyone who eats bacon is bad?

boy:  Yes.

Me: I am not Jewish and I eat bacon.  My husband is Jewish and he eats bacon, our children are not jewish and they have tried bacon.  Are you saying we too are bad?

 

 

At this point I would assume the parents (or the mother) would have chimed in to speak 'for' her son to diffuse the awkwardness to which I would have said, 

 

"Well, he seems old enough to have this opinion for himself or learned from you.  Even if it were learned from another, no one challenged it when he said it which is passive permission/acceptance."

 

 

 

I know if that would have went down, I would have had to leave immeidately.  Not because they would have asked me but because that level of teaching of intolerance and not judging ppl by their character to kids turns my stomach and I could no longer be in their presence.  

 

But that's not what happened.  I kept my mouth shut because I couldn't decide in such a short spontaneous moment if it would have been helpful to anyone to challenge an 11 year old in front of his entire family and mine.  

 

Thoughts?

[dsayers]

Culture is so ridiculous. People are being murdered and stolen from all over the world every day, but hey, pork EEK! And a lot of that killing and stealing is because of these kinds of arbitrary standards.

 

It seems the family is okay with inflicting conclusions rather than sound methodology. This is harmful to the child. Thinking somebody is a bad person means his potential future support net is now what, like 60-70% smaller? How is that protecting, nurturing, or preparing the child for life without his parents?

 

I think I might've asked how he knows. Either as the first question or as a follow up question. It sounds like the way he blurted it out and followed up without hesitation that he has no expectation that this position would be controversial. I think asking questions that would help him to find that his conclusion is unprincipled, if only to plant the seed of doubt in his mind to make him more skeptical in the future. Though at 11, it's probably too late

 

I think at this point, I might ask to speak to the parents and share these concerns. Then again, I don't know the culture where you are. If your family would become outcasts for questioning the validity of cooking with bacon makes somebody a bad man, then I wouldn't do that.

[Will Torbald]

I don't think he would have listened to you even if you had challenged him in the perfect environment without all the distractions and public eye. If he's saying those things in public he has already internalized them, and had no internal debate on whether what he was saying was philosophically sound. So it's not that he reasoned into his position, so you can't reason him out.

[RCali]

Comfort is redundant in the quest and sharing of truth.

[regevdl]

Culture is so ridiculous. People are being murdered and stolen from all over the world every day, but hey, pork EEK! And a lot of that killing and stealing is because of these kinds of arbitrary standards.

 

It seems the family is okay with inflicting conclusions rather than sound methodology. This is harmful to the child. Thinking somebody is a bad person means his potential future support net is now what, like 60-70% smaller? How is that protecting, nurturing, or preparing the child for life without his parents?

 

I think I might've asked how he knows. Either as the first question or as a follow up question. It sounds like the way he blurted it out and followed up without hesitation that he has no expectation that this position would be controversial. I think asking questions that would help him to find that his conclusion is unprincipled, if only to plant the seed of doubt in his mind to make him more skeptical in the future. Though at 11, it's probably too late

 

I think at this point, I might ask to speak to the parents and share these concerns. Then again, I don't know the culture where you are. If your family would become outcasts for questioning the validity of cooking with bacon makes somebody a bad man, then I wouldn't do that.

 

 

Thanks.  your perspective seems right on the money.  I like how you said since he blurted it out it sort of seems like this is not controversial or has ever been challenged to him.  That is right on the money of how I felt in the moment.   He represents a minority of 2 families in our area, literally but it's still sad that people still behave like that.  I liked your suggestion of just sort of asking questions like, 'how do you know if he's a bad man'.  I think my hypothetical conversation in my head would have made it too 'personal' which would put the parents on the defensive.  

 

I also assessed the risk of being ostrasized as a result of this.  honestly, if these people are good friends with the absolute extremists who are banned frrom everyone else, I think I'm safe.  I have a LOT of allies in our area and have earned a lot of respect in my few years living/working here.  I do a lot for and with the community, especially the children so even if I'm at odds with this family, I don't feel it's any lost or risk to me and definintely not my children.  People ADORE my kids (peaceful parenting baby!!!! YAY!!!)  

 

I did think about confronting the parents at a later time, away from the kids to at least express my experience of the conversation.  Right now it's been a long holiday (Hanukkah) and it's sort of like the more time that passes, the pettier it may come off, not saying my grief is petty or anything.  The father (American) will be a douche about it.  This I can guarantee.  The mother will be empathetic but not sure it would result in any action.  AGain, in any case I barely have interaction with them.  So it it worth causing a fuss when I already don't see them, you know? That's why I'm always torn. 

 

But, I do feel more prepared for next time, in case.  I think I will go with your approach and help him think. 

 

Thanks so much!

[regevdl]

I disagree. Kids are sponges. This is the time to plant seeds. Demonstrating the value and coherence of rationality can lead to kids asking questions and caring about the answers.

 

FYI I tried to vote UP on all of your responses but the daily quota for positive votes is like 2 lol so... anyway, thank you all for your feedback.  I do agree kids are sponges in a nurturing environment.  I feel like, after going through in my head and reading some of this feedback, if I would have approached it in the 'against me' argument, it would have triggered panic in the parents and even if I would have been able to get some good philosophical points out, it would have been a stressful situation on the kids which would inhibit (not totally block) but inhibit them from absorbing it.  

 

That's the tricky thing, I feel is that if bringing philosophy to other people's kids creates a BAD or stressful experience to them, then they will naturally turn away from it in the future.  I would rather pass on an opportunity rather than it be used and the kid rejects it because daddy's bothered, etc.  I hope that makes sense.  I have a good sense about people and I know the mother would talk over the boy in order to 'save face' and back peddle and the father would have made condescending remarks and sort of 'escalate' which would stress me out but would have stressed his kids (and mine) out and then I feel philosphy would be seen as the demon by the kids who need to hear it the most.   

 

However I am very confident if it occurs again in a different context with the same family or a stranger, I feel more prepared and grounded to field the situation effortlessly. 

[regevdl]

Culture is so ridiculous. People are being murdered and stolen from all over the world every day, but hey, pork EEK! And a lot of that killing and stealing is because of these kinds of arbitrary standards.

 

oh gosh.  I know.  This is more on the gossip side but the father, about 2 years ago was going on about being in a McDonalds in Israel and they asked him if he wanted cheese on his hamburger.  

 

I have to fill you in on a detail: There are several ways or variations Jews keep 'kosher'. Not mixing meat with cheese is one.  Not eating pork, shellfish and certain birds is another,etc and of course eating only food that has a rabbi stamp of approval of KOSHER.  lol  So some mix and match these standards to their lifestyle and some go all out.  Some even have seperate dinnerware for meals served with meat and if you have meals served with cheese.  Some don't eat cheese for 6 hours after they have eaten meat (not even milk in coffee) or vice versa (won't eat meat for 6 hours after eating cheese)  and of course.... this is all changing every few years because the high rabbis change it for a LOT of money.  it's stupid and trivial but..the meat and cheese thing is in their bible so many people follow it.  Most of the people I hang around it eat like a normal human being and not like an OCD idiot.  

 

If you can afford it, some will have 2 kitchens or a huge kitchen with seperate everything.  2 refrigerators...one for meats and the others for milk items, 2 sets of diningware stored in separate cabinets, etc.  So if you have a kosher restaurant you either don't serve meat or you don't serve cheese (never together) or you have the 2-kitchen open.  It's bonkers. 

 

Anyway, the wife shared how they switched their dining ware at home to glass because the rabbis now 'approve' that glass can be for both because you can see if it's dirty (in case there is a spec of meat when you want to serve cheese for the next meal) and it's more sterile than ceramic or whatever.  Now I am sure when things like the Plague were killing off Europe, this type of sanitary OCD helped save a LOT of people's lives....especially the Jews but people do it like robots now without any practicality to it.  

 

So, with all of that in mind, the hubby went to a McDonalds in ISrael and was offered cheese.  So, there ARE Kosher McDonalds in Israel and non-kosher.  Kosher would mean they don't serve dairy or, they have a separate kitchen to serve icecream and what-not or their cheese is a non-dairy based substance that resembles cheese.  (fucking confused yet? ) lol

 

The nonkosher are like normal but still is'nt the same menu as the US but the Arabs usually go to this McDonalds since they don't have this meat/dairy complex.  

 

He is telling me this story and freaking about about how DARE this employee ask him about the cheese and bla bla bla.  I stood there wondering if I was being punked because I was still waiting for the punchline or to be punched in the face which would have probably felt better than listening to his rant. He told me how to demanded to speak ot the manager about this violation and how dare a McDonalds employee IN ISRAEL, mind you, think to even ask someone if they want cheese on their hamburger...ON THEIR HAMBURGER!  Are we men or are we beasts!!!!??  lol

 

I had to stop him and told him, "you know, I sort of get where you are coming from but wasn't he honoring your unspecified preference as a stranger by asking you before he slaps on a slimy peace of cheese?"  He totally went on as if I didn't make a statement.  

 

He was ranting about this as if someone stole his firstborn.  I finally asked him which McDonalds he was referring to (because there aren't many) and the one he was referring to wasn't even kosher but this is how self-entitled this guy is.  I hate that he's American too because no one in the villages take him seriously.  he gives AMericans AND Jews a bad name.  gawd.  he's awful.  

 

Now, when all of this stuff came up with his son, it brought this story back to my mind and why I'm sort of glad I didn't touch it this time.  I will next time if need be.  But it made me realize that the dad told me that story specifically for a reason.  He didn't tell that story to the Israelis /Jews that were around us.  He only told me, it's because I am not Jewish.  It was an 'assertion' tactic.  So I sort of connected the dots of how his son has this 'cluelessness' that there may actually be non-Jews amongst them and even if...no sensitivity or forethought is needed because their preferences come first.  IN his mind.  Again....this guy and their extremists ally has shown me everything I need to know.  I have already cut off the other family with a formal discussion of my inentions and boundaries.  It may come to that with this family if any more of these instances occur.  

 

ok sorry for the ramble, just wanted to share to vent and sort of bring context.   

[Will Torbald]

I disagree. Kids are sponges. This is the time to plant seeds. Demonstrating the value and coherence of rationality can lead to kids asking questions and caring about the answers.

I don't disagree this is reasonable, but on the circumstances of the particular event, surrounded by adults, and having Jewish parents in Israel, it is a huge uphill battle. The way I see it is that the approach you explain is valid "all thing being equal" in a neutral environment. But the kid and others are being integrated into a society where philosophy, atheism, and bacon are taboo. When he's older and develops his own sense of reason, then he will be receptive.

[dsayers]

I don't think he would have listened to you even if you had challenged him in the perfect environment without all the distractions and public eye. If he's saying those things in public he has already internalized them, and had no internal debate on whether what he was saying was philosophically sound. So it's not that he reasoned into his position, so you can't reason him out.

Agreed. This is what I was trying to say when I referenced his lack of hesitation.

 

This thread is the perfect example. ragevdl understood that what she could say in response might be controversial and thought twice about whether to say it. The way the story is told, this child did not experience this understanding. It's like when a leftist says "Fox News" and just assumes everybody they're talking to will react with disgust.

 

That's also why I think some form of challenge might have been beneficial. If the child expects the conclusion to be universal, to witness some form of challenge might've served to plant the seed of doubt and skepticism.

[lbnuke]

This is a great question and a good topic to share experiences on. I have two little ones (6 and 1) and we're approaching this type of thing with the Holidays here in the US and, specifically, Santa Claus.

 

Have you considered just asking questions of the boy? I don't know his situation, but he may still be naturally extremely curious and find the questions good tinder to start his brain to think rationally. For example, you can sympathize with his opinion in understanding that some people believe that bacon is bad and then ask "Why do you think bacon is bad?". Asking the question, in my opinion, is a sign of curiosity to the boy that you're interested in what his opinions are and what he has to say. Also, this type of questioning would allow the parents to step in at any time prior to there being any conflict.

 

I'd be interested in following how this develops and if you take any steps further.

 

I've found that when dealing with my son's (6 y.o.) best friends saying things that I don't agree with, that sympathizing with them is the best first step. For example, my son has a friend that is very devout Catholic. When he hears a siren, he says a little prayer. I was with him one time when we heard a siren and he said "we should say a prayer because someone probably got hurt". I thought this was very thoughtful of him and responded "wow, that's a good thing to think about doing, I like that you think of others in that way and are concerned about their health." The conversation didn't go further... he's six :-). But I'd like to think that I can establish a good history with this boy and his family and at some point in the future, the conversations can go deeper.

 

 

[Will Torbald]

How do you suppose he'll develop his own sense of reason in this environment? I don't see it happening without some seeds being planted by people who actually adhere to reason.

 

Just regular maturity and coming of age. I don't mean to say he shouldn't have any examples of critical thinking, but that at the age he is, he is only learning through authority. He sees adults and important big people believing in something, and goes on and repeat what he's told. One day he'll grow and realize that the authority he thought was infallible, isn't.

[regevdl]

This is a great question and a good topic to share experiences on. I have two little ones (6 and 1) and we're approaching this type of thing with the Holidays here in the US and, specifically, Santa Claus.

 

Have you considered just asking questions of the boy? I don't know his situation, but he may still be naturally extremely curious and find the questions good tinder to start his brain to think rationally. For example, you can sympathize with his opinion in understanding that some people believe that bacon is bad and then ask "Why do you think bacon is bad?". Asking the question, in my opinion, is a sign of curiosity to the boy that you're interested in what his opinions are and what he has to say. Also, this type of questioning would allow the parents to step in at any time prior to there being any conflict.

 

I'd be interested in following how this develops and if you take any steps further.

 

I've found that when dealing with my son's (6 y.o.) best friends saying things that I don't agree with, that sympathizing with them is the best first step. For example, my son has a friend that is very devout Catholic. When he hears a siren, he says a little prayer. I was with him one time when we heard a siren and he said "we should say a prayer because someone probably got hurt". I thought this was very thoughtful of him and responded "wow, that's a good thing to think about doing, I like that you think of others in that way and are concerned about their health." The conversation didn't go further... he's six :-). But I'd like to think that I can establish a good history with this boy and his family and at some point in the future, the conversations can go deeper.

 

you brought up Christmas and such.  I recently made up my mind that I am an atheist but we celebrate Christmas Tradition.  I tell the story to the kids about Jesus that no one knows for sure if he existed but it's a good example of morality (choosing the best moral stories of course!) lol  We've had Santa...usually a friend from the neighborhood.  Bet ya's never had a Moroccon Jewish Santa ! lol  My older started asking and I asked him what he thought.  I just asked questions until he came up with the conclusion that Santa is not real and it was totally fine.  He still enjoys when santa comes to visit and is a good sport about it because it IS fun.  My daughter still asks.  My son tried to outright tell her and I chastised him explaining it's not fair to just give her the answer.  He can also help her find the answer on her own or stay quiet and let me do it.  

 

How this ties into the initial situation, My first year here, I invited ALL the children of my kids' classes to celebrate with us.  Some were thrilled, some passed and some simply couldn't attend.  The ones who passed are the more religious or traditional but aren't assholes about it.  

 

This particular family not only declined (as many declined with a 'how thoughtful but we won't be able to attend'..and left the reason unspoken) this family made it a point to tell me, "we aren't allowing our kids to come and they are upset because all of their friends are coming.  But we don't want to expose them to all of the greed and spoiling that Christmas teaches.".  This was literally my first year here and I had such good feedback from the other families who love seeing the lights and coming to see the tree and even celebrate with us I just brushed it off.  

 

NOw, that I have known them a tiny bit better and added this recent experience, I realize they are just people who need to assert their 'better than thou' attitude.  Even if I turned back the clock to that past Christmas I wouldn't have wasted my time trying to teach them that Christmas to us and even growing up religious has more to do about giving than receiving. So I don't feel bad for not saying anything then either.  

 

So yea, they are shallow people, they want everyone to know they are Jewish, even though they live among Jews, they need to make it a point that everyone knows HOW Jewish they are and anything  else is 'bad' or 'lower' or 'unworthy' of them, etc.  

 

What I would LOVE to tell them especially in the topic of Christmas is....how detached are your kids from you that you think celebrating one non jewish holiday one night in their life will destroy their entire efficacy of their Jewishness that you have worked their entire life building for them.  I mean, I know my kids will live closer to our teachings and may stray from time to time but I expose them to a lot of different things and welcome conversation and explanation.  

[regevdl]

This is a great question and a good topic to share experiences on. I have two little ones (6 and 1) and we're approaching this type of thing with the Holidays here in the US and, specifically, Santa Claus.

 

Have you considered just asking questions of the boy? I don't know his situation, but he may still be naturally extremely curious and find the questions good tinder to start his brain to think rationally. For example, you can sympathize with his opinion in understanding that some people believe that bacon is bad and then ask "Why do you think bacon is bad?". Asking the question, in my opinion, is a sign of curiosity to the boy that you're interested in what his opinions are and what he has to say. Also, this type of questioning would allow the parents to step in at any time prior to there being any conflict.

 

I'd be interested in following how this develops and if you take any steps further.

 

I've found that when dealing with my son's (6 y.o.) best friends saying things that I don't agree with, that sympathizing with them is the best first step. For example, my son has a friend that is very devout Catholic. When he hears a siren, he says a little prayer. I was with him one time when we heard a siren and he said "we should say a prayer because someone probably got hurt". I thought this was very thoughtful of him and responded "wow, that's a good thing to think about doing, I like that you think of others in that way and are concerned about their health." The conversation didn't go further... he's six :-). But I'd like to think that I can establish a good history with this boy and his family and at some point in the future, the conversations can go deeper.

 

 

Yes I think a few 'speedbumps' even if minor or seemingly unnoticed can help.  They sort of 'add up' over time.  Someone might not hear them but eventually something else they hear later down the road will tip the scale and then they will remember ALL the little things from the past.  

 

This family is keen on turning everything outside of their Judaism as bad and I realize in this case, it may never been a good idea to bring anything up and why I'm glad I don't interact with them anyway.  We can't save everyone.  lol  In my example above, regarding my invitation to our Christmas party years ago, this family declined but still made it a negative experience for the kids and spun their own negative connotation to it to make it seem like they have the moral high ground in the view of the children.  'no...we are protefcting our kids from greed.  They are mad now but will thank us later'.  etc.  (nevermind I donate a LOT to Jewish and non-Jewish organizations throughout the year and especially in Dec).  

 

So they don't even have the spine to say, 'no kids, this is not a jewish holiday and we do not want to expose you to anything non jewish'.  instead they have to push the rigidity and demonize something else in order to maintain the authority over their kids. it's quite cruel and dimeaning, actually.  But the kids will always see how happy we are and nice and helpful so the cognitive dissonance will surely wake them up eventually.  probably not to any huge degree but at least allow them to question in silence.

[AccuTron]

"...If the child expects the conclusion to be universal, to witness some form of challenge might've served to plant the seed of doubt and skepticism."

 

"One day he'll grow and realize that the authority he thought was infallible, isn't."

 

 

These are counterweights.  Which one to chose?  Per my own experience:  I can look back and see many huge lies that were never challenged, and I had not the resources to do so.  Partly, before the internet, partly just didn't know, had no one to help me.  So, being not specifically challenged, the rot kept on going.

 

When I was in fourth grade Catholic school, the science book showed a starfish(sea star) grouped under "Mollusks."  I was shocked.  They are Echinoderms, not Mollusks!  Doesn't everyone know this?  That was the first crack in the Infallibility Of Church.  A frickin' drawing of a starfish.  In my life, it was a huge moment.  So, I'm leaning more towards the view of let the young be exposed to other people's thoughts.  (Captain Caveat then barks:  "But no damn feminists!")

[regevdl]

 

"...If the child expects the conclusion to be universal, to witness some form of challenge might've served to plant the seed of doubt and skepticism."

 

"One day he'll grow and realize that the authority he thought was infallible, isn't."

 

 

These are counterweights.  Which one to chose?  Per my own experience:  I can look back and see many huge lies that were never challenged, and I had not the resources to do so.  Partly, before the internet, partly just didn't know, had no one to help me.  So, being not specifically challenged, the rot kept on going.

 

When I was in fourth grade Catholic school, the science book showed a starfish(sea star) grouped under "Mollusks."  I was shocked.  They are Echinoderms, not Mollusks!  Doesn't everyone know this?  That was the first crack in the Infallibility Of Church.  A frickin' drawing of a starfish.  In my life, it was a huge moment.  So, I'm leaning more towards the view of let the young be exposed to other people's thoughts.  (Captain Caveat then barks:  "But no damn feminists!")

 

I agree that left unchallenged completely will not give him any 'cracks' to later tear down his crystal view of the world and his place in it.  In this particular situation, the father, either in the moment or after would have given him a negative experience to associate with the points I was making.  Not that that should stop us from challenging these absolutes people have but since it's also associated with my children, I later felt maybe it was best to leave this opportunity alone and use the next one as my launchpad.  

[dsayers]

My son tried to outright tell her and I chastised him explaining it's not fair to just give her the answer.

For what it's worth, I disagree with this. I view it as punishing the child for a failing of the parents. Maybe instead, you could explain how if he asked for the answer to a math problem, then the next time he encountered one, he would have to ask again. But if instead you were to show him how to figure out the answer for himself, then he would have a new skill and be less reliant on others. In this way, you could model the value of this approach for him and let him internalize it.

 

I think for one child to ruin the fantasy of Santa Claus only serves to reveal the folly of perpetuating Santa Claus. Don't get me wrong. I agree with you that xmas can be fun and that Santa can be a fun game/story. But for your son to say this to your daughter and it be problematic, this would indicate that she was under the impression that he was real. You don't want that, right?

[regevdl]

For what it's worth, I disagree with this. I view it as punishing the child for a failing of the parents. Maybe instead, you could explain how if he asked for the answer to a math problem, then the next time he encountered one, he would have to ask again. But if instead you were to show him how to figure out the answer for himself, then he would have a new skill and be less reliant on others. In this way, you could model the value of this approach for him and let him internalize it.

 

I think for one child to ruin the fantasy of Santa Claus only serves to reveal the folly of perpetuating Santa Claus. Don't get me wrong. I agree with you that xmas can be fun and that Santa can be a fun game/story. But for your son to say this to your daughter and it be problematic, this would indicate that she was under the impression that he was real. You don't want that, right?

I didn't punish him.  I simply explained to him that before he concluded there was no santa, we took time to talk about it and we should offer the same opportunity for his sister that he can be part of as well.  

 

He didn't ruin it for her.  she still believes but we talk about it from time to time.  She is still young and I respect her viewpoints and challenge them without telling her they are 'wrong'.  She remains curious.  

 

I don't remember how I worded it but I didn't mean for it to come off as if this was a terrible experience or upsetting experience for any of us.  After I discussed this (and I did use a brief assertive tone with him at the beginning but then we calmly went over the details), he perfectly understood and sat with his sister to use Socratic questioning, etc.  

[algernon]

It's interesting how people never consider why a religious text says the things they say. Pigs for example are not unclean animals, humans just keep them in unclean conditions. Before wire fencing it was extremely difficult to fence animals, so the pens would be extremely small. Pigs cannot sweat so they cool off by rolling in mud, it just so happens if you give them a tiny pen, they have no choice but to urinate and defecate where they drink and eat, and roll in mud, now you have a shit covered pig. In most feces there is a lot of undigested organic matter which pigs will eat if they are hungry, it just so happens human waste would not be in sewage systems but on the ground and pigs would eat it potentially being infected with human parasites. Now the pigs are carrying a disease that can make a human sick.

 

Cattle wasn't forbidden (in certain societies) because you could secure them with a rope and collar and easily move them around, and being herbivores they only eat vegetation, which results in having a lower chance of being infected with contagious parasites for humans. Animals like sheep are docile and easy to herd. Ever seen someone try and herd a hog? Not going to happen.  

 

You can take Hinduism for example where cattle were forbidden but for different reasons than Pork for the Jews and Muslims, the original context of banning eating cows and bulls was because they were very important from an agrarian standpoint, if you slaughter your cow, your milk supply is now gone. It's just like if I slaughter one of my laying hens I have chicken for one night, but if she lives I'll have eggs for over four years, more than 1000 eggs over her productive lifetime (then I eat her).

 

It's as ridiculous as if I were to write a farming manual on why you shouldn't slaughter your laying hen, then in a thousand years or so people started worshiping chickens based on ignorance and misunderstanding.

 

My point in all of this is there are practical reasons why religious texts forbid eating and drinking certain things, but people are too ignorant and blind to do 30 minutes of research and learn why it was that way. Yes in a village full of people with human feces all over the place, I probably wouldn't be eating pork roaming the area either. Today on the farm, eating fresh grass, yummy vegetable scraps and no feces, the pork will be eaten and enjoyed.

 

I hope this doesn't derail the conversation, I just wanted everyone to realize how absolutely ridiculous it is for people TODAY, to follow ancient religious texts food safety guidelines. "Thou shalt not kill" - Okay, obvious moral statement. "Thou shalt not eat pork" - hmmm, is this a moral statement? Lets look into this.

[regevdl]

It's interesting how people never consider why a religious text says the things they say. Pigs for example are not unclean animals, humans just keep them in unclean conditions. Before wire fencing it was extremely difficult to fence animals, so the pens would be extremely small. Pigs cannot sweat so they cool off by rolling in mud, it just so happens if you give them a tiny pen, they have no choice but to urinate and defecate where they drink and eat, and roll in mud, now you have a shit covered pig. In most feces there is a lot of undigested organic matter which pigs will eat if they are hungry, it just so happens human waste would not be in sewage systems but on the ground and pigs would eat it potentially being infected with human parasites. Now the pigs are carrying a disease that can make a human sick.

 

Cattle wasn't forbidden (in certain societies) because you could secure them with a rope and collar and easily move them around, and being herbivores they only eat vegetation, which results in having a lower chance of being infected with contagious parasites for humans. Animals like sheep are docile and easy to herd. Ever seen someone try and herd a hog? Not going to happen.  

 

You can take Hinduism for example where cattle were forbidden but for different reasons than Pork for the Jews and Muslims, the original context of banning eating cows and bulls was because they were very important from an agrarian standpoint, if you slaughter your cow, your milk supply is now gone. It's just like if I slaughter one of my laying hens I have chicken for one night, but if she lives I'll have eggs for over four years, more than 1000 eggs over her productive lifetime (then I eat her).

 

It's as ridiculous as if I were to write a farming manual on why you shouldn't slaughter your laying hen, then in a thousand years or so people started worshiping chickens based on ignorance and misunderstanding.

 

My point in all of this is there are practical reasons why religious texts forbid eating and drinking certain things, but people are too ignorant and blind to do 30 minutes of research and learn why it was that way. Yes in a village full of people with human feces all over the place, I probably wouldn't be eating pork roaming the area either. Today on the farm, eating fresh grass, yummy vegetable scraps and no feces, the pork will be eaten and enjoyed.

 

I hope this doesn't derail the conversation, I just wanted everyone to realize how absolutely ridiculous it is for people TODAY, to follow ancient religious texts food safety guidelines. "Thou shalt not kill" - Okay, obvious moral statement. "Thou shalt not eat pork" - hmmm, is this a moral statement? Lets look into this.

 mellomama touched on point in her response but yes, the Jewish religious texts urge to abstain from 'bottom feeders'.  Shell fish, certain birds, pigs and such are bottom feeders.  I have also heard that because pigs have close DNA or genetic similarities or because they are so intelligent, this is another reason for forbidding eating them.  

 

 A lot of their 'religious' habits do evolve around sanitation of which I give them a lot of credit for throughout less enlightened history and probably where some of the suspicion and resentment against them came from without full understanding of the time.  During bouts of epidemics, the Jews usually suffered less because they kept meat and cheese separate.  

 

I guess when everyone else was dying off, it makes the Jewish population stand out for better or worse.  

they knew how to eat from the land and with very little waste or disturbance.  To have kosher produce from trees, you have to grow trees that produce nuts and fruit, you must wait 4 years before you harvest otherwise it's not considered kosher.

 

The practial reason why is that when you cut the flowers and prevent pollenation for the first 4 years, the tree stores up all of that sugar, becomes heartier and stronger and by the 4th or 5th year, the fruit is much sweeter and bigger, etc.  We own a date plantation and even if it weren't actual law by the gvt to wait, we would voluntarily do this practice to wait  (thankfully we only have about 1.5 more years to go before we can pick!) lol  It's harder financially to invest that much work and effort and not get paid for that many years, but it will be worth it in the end. 

 

Anyway, by law I don't mean that if we do pick early we will get arrested..  Instead, what will happen is that our product will not be considered kosher.  We will export our produce but the gvt won't approve anything for export if it's not kosher, regardless of which country it's going to.  YAY gub'ment!  we have friends who also grow dates and choose to pick early becuse they needed the money.  Their dates are so crappy and they can only sell them to the few non-kosher markets or to the arab communities here, so their quest for immediately gratification still didn't pay off like they had hoped so it's best to wait.  

 

The separation of meat and cheese is another one.  Some, as metioned above, even have separate dishes they use only when serving meals that contain meat and some only for meals without meat (or that contain dairy).  Yesterday, coincidentally, we hosted a lunch and an old Yemenite jewish man made the soup.  He follows the kosher laws VERY strictly so because my kitchen is not even close to being kosher (lol) he brought disposable plates, utensils, etc.  That's how you work around that problem.  lol  

The soup had meat, so he came prepared with a non-dairy chocolate cake.  So, the point is that the bible or ancient rabbis had good reasons for these rules but now modern rabbis keep adding to them (like gub'ment always adds new laws to old laws).  So they'll say, you can't eat meat and dairy in the same meal, when the original rule was don't cook the veal in cow's milk,...the meat cooked with its own mother's milk.  But nothing about eating chicken  and eating cheese made from goat or cow's milk.  But those who keep kosher keep ALL milk and cheese separate and go to these extremes that even the dishes don't mix, etc.  it's a bit absurd at times.

 

Also the modern rabbis say you cannot eat dairy for 6 hours if you ate meat.  So if you had meat for breakfast, you cannot have even milk in your coffee.  So these are all variable and most people don't practice to this extreme.  Even at the kosher markets, if they are owned by religious, they won't even put dairy and meat in the same shopping bag!  I remember a funny incident when I was unaware of this and I had a pack of hamburgers or some meat and a pack of cheese.  Because they were both cold I put them in the same bag and the bagger kept emptying the bag.  lol  I finally understood why 

 

So it can get pretty extreme in this habit which I feel because of the advances in hygiene, etc, it's sort of unncessary and more of superstitious rituals people go about without thinking of where it all came from.  I always look at things and history from a practical standpoint.  And these obsessions of food/cleanliness back in the day were based on life or death, now....not so much.  

 

i have often pondered why they don't mix meat and dairy.  There is  some quote in their bible about (I am roughly paraphrasing) that you shouldn't cook the kid of the mother's milk.  (kid being a baby goat).  So because of this, they don't mix.  Basically back then, when farms were private and for the sustainability of an individual family, it was a guide to ensure agriculture fertility, some believe the ban against it was based on it being inhumane.  Again, purely speculation but I'm always curious to ponder.  

 

I do get annoyed when people follow these strict rules without giving it a curious thought.  I have more respect for those who have questioned it and continue to practice it for their own peronal reasons rather than, 'because we are told, because god said because the rabbi said, because you are bad if you don't.  

[Tyne]

You could probably bring up the conversation with the adults, preferably around the kid. The conversation you would be having with the 11 year old boy would be a conversation with his internal parents anyway, since he's reciting conclusions most likely implanted by someone else. So, might as well have a direct conversation with the source, and show the boy how the conversation might go. Talk to them like you want to talk to the boy.

 

From what I've observed, parents get frustrated, too, at this indirect conversation with them through their kids. in the end, the conversation isn't about changing their minds so much as it is about enlightening the child, so don't worry too much if the conversation doesn't go great with the parents, the boy will with any luck be learning something new, if not about ethics and rational thinking, then about his parents.