Atheism: The Faith of The Fatherless

[Mantis]

I'm going to propose a new theory here on the FDR boards regarding the origins of Atheism. Perhaps some of you have already heard this theory, the author I'm going to mention published in 2013. I just discovered this and my personal opinion is that it sheds an accurate light on the faith of Atheism.

 

The origin of believing in Atheism is negative early childhood experiences with one's father. This theory will hold true for many Atheists at FDR. We tie together ACE's, specifically father related, and the tendency to become atheist. This should provide a solid explanation for the merger of these two factors here at FDR. Atheism/ACE

 

"Disappointment in one's father, whether through death, absence, or mistreatment, frequently leads to a rejection of God."

 

"A biographical survey of influential atheists of the past four centuries shows that this "defective father hypothesis" provides a consistent explanation of the "intense atheism" of these thinkers."

 

"By studying the lives of numerous famous atheists, from the old atheists Nietzsche, Sartre, and Freud to the new atheists Hitchens, Dawkins, and Dennet, Vitz discovers a startling common pattern: atheism arises in people with dead, absent, or abusive fathers."

 

I direct you to the work of psychologist Paul C. Vitz, his book titled The Faith of Fatherless. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1586176870/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1450530482&sr=1-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Paul+C.+Vitz

 

"Paul C. Vitz, is Professor/Senior Scholar at the Institute for the Psychological Sciences, Arlington, Va. and a Professor Emeritus of Psychology at New York University. He earned his bachelor's degree at the University of Michigan and his Ph. D at Stanford University. He was an atheist until his late 30s."

[Torero]

Atheism = faith?

Atheism "arises"?

 

That would mean that religiosity is the base state and atheism the diversion of that.

 

It's the other way around; the base state is nature, it's humans who invented religion.

[Sayo]

I'm going to propose a new theory here on the FDR boards regarding the origins of Atheism. Perhaps some of you have already heard this theory, the author I'm going to mention published in 2013. I just discovered this and my personal opinion is that it sheds an accurate light on the faith of Atheism.

 

Who do you think is going to fall for such blatant provocation?

 

It's a rhetorical question. Enjoy the rest of your day. 

[dayna j.]

I've also heard that every time Beyonce has a number one hit, Ethiopian coffee farmers experience an abundant harvest.

[Will Torbald]

Funny you should mention Dawkins considering how he had a wonderful relationship with his parents, raised him rather peacefully, and never had significant ACE's. I read his first autobiography, and nothing about his father was abusive.

[MrNlul77]

@mantis Atheism, has nothing to do with faith, its a rational opinion bases on empirical evidence, logical consistency and reasoning.

 

The rejection of "god" is due to "god" not existing in reality.

 

In short, what you posted is a load of nonsense.

 

Also, all theists are "99.99%" atheists.

[shirgall]

"Disappointment in one's father, whether through death, absence, or mistreatment, frequently leads to a rejection of God."

 

 

How did your disappointment in your father lead you to reject Zeus?

[Alan C.]

I didn't have negative early childhood experiences with my dad. He was a kind, affectionate, loving dad.

[jpahmad]

I have a great dad

[AccuTron]

How did your disappointment in your father lead you to reject Zeus?

 

Grrrr...don't make me even think about Zeus, dat basterd!    

[Mantis]

Yes certainly this theory isn't going to fit everyones MO for converting to Atheism, and for those that had wonderful dad's that fantastic. Those that did have good dads should consider the religious life, as thats where they would find the deepest connection with their father,and those with good dads have a natural inclination to living a religious life. Unless of course those saying they have good fathers are perhaps missing a critical ACE buried deep in the unconscious and dad wasn't a good as they thought.

 

My overall point is to start looking into the connection between Atheism and ACE. I mean they even rhyme. I think it will be ground breaking to start tying the two together. What if ACE means Atheism? FDR would seem to confirm this theory.

[shirgall]

Grrrr...don't make me even think about Zeus, dat basterd!    

 

If there was a disappointing father, Zeus is way up there.

[DCLugi]

It's a shame that the word atheism ever came about as it lends power to theism. We don't need asantaism or adalekism or amyrashisfromfoodallergynotsleepingwiththatprostituteism.

[ResidingOnEarth]

Even though the term "faith of atheism" is unusual (I haven't heard someone use the word faith in that way before), I agree that atheism is a faith.  The definition of faith is: a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.  It is true that you cannot logically prove that a god does not exist and there is also no way of providing material evidence for a god's non-existence.

 

However: I think your use of your term "faith of Atheism" is a type of sophistry designed to mislead people who lack critical thinking skills.  I think you are using the word "faith" to paint a picture where atheism and theism seem equally plausible and that it's just a matter of picking which one feels right.  In other words: It's just a matter of where you place your faith.  You actually suggested that your childhood experience may affect your feeling about which is right.

 

So: it all rests on just faith... right?

 

Wrong. 

 

The fact is: theists are making the claim that there is a god or gods (they don't all agree on what god is or how many there are), and they are making that claim without rational or material evidence.  Atheists take the more reasonable position of assuming there is no god, on account of there being no evidence for one (or more).

 

As an atheist myself who has not seen any evidence of unicorns or clangers on the moon, I not only do not believe in god, but I also don't believe in the existence of unicorns or clangers.

[Sima]

I think its very useful to hear new theories.  Actually abusive father= abusive mother (people choose partners of their own level). So it could also be mother figure who makes people atheists. But there are also many people with abusive fathers and mothers , and they are religious. I think atheism comes from ability to think rationally.  But again I'm always for new theories, so if you can give more evidence, would be more interesting. My father was co dependent to my abusive mother, therefore he wasn't great dad, maybe he is quite a good person, but did not fit for the dad;s role for me. 

Ps I don't like the phrase : faith of Atheism, it implies that rational people also are religious in their own way, therefore they are at the same level with religious irrational people.

[dsayers]

faith of Atheism.

Faith of atheism? Is this experienced by the people who enjoy the amount of chocolate in vanilla ice cream?

 

Yes certainly this theory isn't going to fit everyones MO for converting to Atheism

What is your MO for converting to being bound by Earth's gravitational pull?

[WasatchMan]

Even if your "origin" hypothesis for atheists were true, which seems tenuous, it says nothing about the truth or falsehood of the claims, neither does it address the practical implications of holding one belief over another.

 

What is your "origin" hypothesis that allows otherwise functioning human beings to believe in ancient myths and superstitions, absent of any evidence, that are fundamental in shaping their metaphysical and epistemological views on reality?

[MrNlul77]

Yes certainly this theory isn't going to fit everyones MO for converting to Atheism, and for those that had wonderful dad's that fantastic. Those that did have good dads should consider the religious life, as thats where they would find the deepest connection with their father,and those with good dads have a natural inclination to living a religious life. Unless of course those saying they have good fathers are perhaps missing a critical ACE buried deep in the unconscious and dad wasn't a good as they thought.

My overall point is to start looking into the connection between Atheism and ACE. I mean they even rhyme. I think it will be ground breaking to start tying the two together. What if ACE means Atheism? FDR would seem to confirm this theory.

A person doesnt "convert to atheism", atheism is a logical/rational conclusion.

 

Regardless of a how a persons dad was, any person who uses empirical evidence/logic/reasoning as the basis for their conclusions will arrive at the atheist position. Saying that those with good dads should be theists is ridiculous.

 

FDR promotes truth, and as a result the rational conclusion of atheism. Your implication that the FDR community are atheists due to ACE is utter nonsense.

 

Start looking into the connection between theists and ACE.

[Donnadogsoth]

I'm going to propose a new theory here on the FDR boards regarding the origins of Atheism. Perhaps some of you have already heard this theory, the author I'm going to mention published in 2013. I just discovered this and my personal opinion is that it sheds an accurate light on the faith of Atheism.

 

The origin of believing in Atheism is negative early childhood experiences with one's father. This theory will hold true for many Atheists at FDR. We tie together ACE's, specifically father related, and the tendency to become atheist. This should provide a solid explanation for the merger of these two factors here at FDR. Atheism/ACE

 

"Disappointment in one's father, whether through death, absence, or mistreatment, frequently leads to a rejection of God."

 

"A biographical survey of influential atheists of the past four centuries shows that this "defective father hypothesis" provides a consistent explanation of the "intense atheism" of these thinkers."

 

"By studying the lives of numerous famous atheists, from the old atheists Nietzsche, Sartre, and Freud to the new atheists Hitchens, Dawkins, and Dennet, Vitz discovers a startling common pattern: atheism arises in people with dead, absent, or abusive fathers."

 

I direct you to the work of psychologist Paul C. Vitz, his book titled The Faith of Fatherless. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1586176870/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1450530482&sr=1-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Paul+C.+Vitz

 

"Paul C. Vitz, is Professor/Senior Scholar at the Institute for the Psychological Sciences, Arlington, Va. and a Professor Emeritus of Psychology at New York University. He earned his bachelor's degree at the University of Michigan and his Ph. D at Stanford University. He was an atheist until his late 30s."

 

I've heard of this theory before, Mantis.  Good on you for eating the negative rep needed to post such an enlightening thing here.

 

In my case it was paradoxical: My absent father himself was an atheist, my mother a theist.  Thus I'm caught, do I rebel against Dad and be...a theist?  I tried atheism for a long time but could never finally kick God out of my head, no matter how many tantalisingly close logical arguments and no matter how much antitheistic hatred I mustered.  Did I accept Christ in the spirit of rebellion?

 

Now with the destruction of the nuclear family I imagine atheism will wax in popularity to an all-time high.

[Will Torbald]

Yes certainly this theory isn't going to fit everyones MO for converting to Atheism, and for those that had wonderful dad's that fantastic. Those that did have good dads should consider the religious life, as thats where they would find the deepest connection with their father,and those with good dads have a natural inclination to living a religious life. Unless of course those saying they have good fathers are perhaps missing a critical ACE buried deep in the unconscious and dad wasn't a good as they thought.

 

My overall point is to start looking into the connection between Atheism and ACE. I mean they even rhyme. I think it will be ground breaking to start tying the two together. What if ACE means Atheism? FDR would seem to confirm this theory.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[Mantis]

I will respond to you all my brothers and sisters that posed a question, soon.

[RCali]

So it's about having bad fathers, and not about how the proposed ideas fail any test of logic? Even santa claus seemed more plausible to me, when I was a child, than the existance of a god. Never believed in one. I did believe in the red clothed long beared fat man who climbed chimneys to deliver presents to everyone in the planet. Quite more believable than a all powerful god that was perfect in every way, that was never seen, heard, or gone through any observation in history, by credible sources. But hey, I guess I don't deserve any credit for thinking this when I was young, and it's just due to having had a bad father.

[Mantis]

Hey guys I'm typing up the responses, I thought I'd have them up tonight, but I've had a few drinks and I'm not sure I'm going to push through tonight. But I want to respond to Rcali.

 

@Rcali - hey Rcali my main man, you're a sharp kid. Now I still believe in Santa Claus, he's coming to my house this year, we usually meet and have drinks on my roof top. I hang a wreath around his neck and we laugh jolly over a glass of scotch about the myth of Christmas and how no one ever knew that Santa is a historical figure. See Santa was actually a Siberia shaman who traveled to people's Yurts on a sleigh towed by reindeer, the native deer of Siberia. Yurts are those round little portable houses that have a smoke hole in the roof. Well up in Siberia there is massive snow storms that sometimes snow over the front door of the yurt, and then the only way in and out in the smoke hole in the roof. And this is where the shaman would enter. Hence the Santa myth. Well chap I digress.

 

So my buddy, I've been thinking as I respond to this post, that Atheism isn't just a result of bad dad's, but it's a result of all trauma in general. It's a result of the deep pain and suffering of life on the earth. Atheism is a rebellion against God who causes so much pain.

 

But dude look into the Santa myth, it's a really story with fun lessons to learn. If I didn't answer your question I'm sorry, I'm so burnt right now. Let me know if you want more answers.

[shirgall]

So my buddy, I've been thinking as I respond to this post, that Atheism isn't just a result of bad dad's, but it's a result of all trauma in general. It's a result of the deep pain and suffering of life on the earth. Atheism is a rebellion against God who causes so much pain.

 

 

Contrarily, "god" is a rebellion against the natural order of the universe where man invented a anthropomorphic cause for all the natural traumas inflicted upon him, and then that framework was leveraged to manipulate people to provide resources to sophists who otherwise don't deserve to breed.

[A4E]

According to wikipedia, Scandinavia and east Asia, and China, have a majority of atheists and non religious people. Do these areas then also have a high rate of disappointment in one's father, whether through death, absence, or mistreatment?

[Mantis]

Contrarily, "god" is a rebellion against the natural order of the universe where man invented a anthropomorphic cause for all the natural traumas inflicted upon him, and then that framework was leveraged to manipulate people to provide resources to sophists who otherwise don't deserve to breed.

@shirgall - Yes, quickly my main man, I agree that religion has been used for mind control and the priests were the shamans and they got the gold offerings so on and so forth. I think much of it stemmed from the Roman Empire and the new testament with Cesar. (Joe Atwill - The Ceasars Messiah, http://www.amazon.com/Caesars-Messiah-Conspiracy-Flavian-Signature/dp/1461096405/ref=la_B001K8GW3K_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450580456&sr=1-1

 

Having said that, religion has been around for thousands of years for a reason. Why are religious texts guarded and passed down for thousands of years? All the atheists have is atheistkult. Atheism is a belief system that says life is meaningless. Well if that's the case isn't suicide a good option?

According to wikipedia, Scandinavia and east Asia, and China, have a majority of atheists and non religious people. Do these areas then also have a high rate of disappointment in one's father, whether through death, absence, or mistreatment?

@A4E - that's a good question my main man. With regard to those specific geographical locations I immediately think Socialism and Communism and rouge dictatorships in East Asia. Then we have the hard winter and weather climates in Scandinavia, and also that in Scandinavia they have their roots in paganism which might not hit the poll of religion questionnaire. In other words I think these areas have had a healthy dose of trauma which would lead to their rebellious Atheism. I'm redefining my theory, Atheism isn't just bad dad's, but it's trauma as a whole. It all trauma all ACE.

 

That's my take on Asia and Scandinavia. Those are two very unique locations that have characteristics that lead to a higher rate of atheistic conversion.

[ProfessionalTeabagger]

It wouldn't matter. There's still no god.

[shirgall]

Having said that, religion has been around for thousands of years for a reason. Why are religious texts guarded and passed down for thousands of years? All the atheists have is atheistkult. Atheism is a belief system that says life is meaningless. Well if that's the case isn't suicide a good option?

 

 

Religionists: there is no god, but mine. Atheists: there is no god.

 

Neither attributes meaning or meaningless to life. It is an orthogonal discussion to the question of whether gods exist.

 

If you are going to proffer such arguments, could you choose hay or alfalfa? Straw is pretty tasteless.

[A4E]

 Atheism is a belief system that says life is meaningless.

Lets say for the sake of conversation about this statement, that a god does not exist. Could you please describe how life is then meaningless?

[Nathan Metric]

I respect you Mantis for being willing to publish such a provocative theory. I noticed you used the word "Atheiskult". For those who don't know that was a phrase invented by Ryan Faulk. A YT anarchist from 4-5 years ago who uses that word to apply to certain majority group of atheists. One's that

a)Believe there was no God

b)Believed in logical-positivism. That science is the only source of knowledge.

c)Tended to have mainstream politically correct beliefs

d)Have no good answer to classic philosophical questions including morality.

 

I don't think that label applies to anyone here other than the disbelief in God part.

 

As for does atheism logically lead to a belief in the meaningless of life? No. The only way you could even conclude that life is meaningless is if moral nihilism is true because almost all moral theories logically entail that life has meaning.

[ResidingOnEarth]

Even santa claus seemed more plausible to me, when I was a child, than the existance of a god. Never believed in one. I did believe in the red clothed long beared fat man who climbed chimneys to deliver presents to everyone in the planet. Quite more believable than a all powerful god that was perfect in every way, that was never seen, heard, or gone through any observation in history, by credible sources.

 

Same here!

 

I actually met the real Santa as a kid: the actual immortal, beard-donning, flying, physics defying, magical man himself.  I had strong sense data to suggest he was real and my younger siblings were there to bear witness: confirming my experience was real.

 

I later discovered that the existence of Santa was a lie perpetrated by multiple actors all cooperating, as part of a vast conspiracy to deceive me and other people my age.  The man who I thought was Santa turned out to be a co-worker of one of my parents who was standing on a ladder (not hovering on a sleigh as he claimed he was at the time).

 

Maybe if the local church had paid someone to dress up as god (or the second coming) I would have believed that as a child.  They didn't though; and their church hymns, stories, fancy dress and fancy buildings didn't work on me.

[dsayers]

I respect you Mantis for being willing to publish such a provocative theory.

Despite its internal inconsistencies? We know that dysfunction can lead to the REJECTION of reality. Attributing the acceptance of reality to such is nonsensical.

 

Suppose there was a deity or deities. Surely you can agree that a child is not born with this knowledge and cannot arrive at this conclusion empirically. Thus we see that the lack of theism is the origin. This has complex implications. First being that the acceptance of this sum of empiricism cannot be attributed to dysfunction. Also, the implication that the conclusion was arrived upon by way of damaging a child's ability to think rationally and test empirically. Which would be the result of childhood trauma. Since the child's environment is completely of the parents' creation, this is attributed to the parents. Thus if anything regarding theism could be attributed to the father, it would have to be the presence of theism, not its absence.

[MrNlul77]

@Mantis your clearly avoiding every question/point put to you. You have offered a theory and others have put forward logical/rational objections/reasons for it being false. All you keep doing is making irrelevant/nonsense statements.

 

You have no interest in discussion/debate, you have no interest in the facts/truth, you have your "faith" in "god" and your mind is closed to reality/the truth.

 

I liken this thread to, you made a post claiming 2+2=5 and others( those who are accept empirical evidence/logic/reason/reality) are explaining to you that in fact 2+2=4. Due to your closed mind you will not accept the truth.

 

From my perspective you've been offered "the pill", many times, and you keep spitting it back.

 

This non-discussion is a waste of time.

[Mantis]

@Mantis your clearly avoiding every question/point put to you. You have offered a theory and others have put forward logical/rational objections/reasons for it being false. All you keep doing is making irrelevant/nonsense statements.

 

You have no interest in discussion/debate, you have no interest in the facts/truth, you have your "faith" in "god" and your mind is closed to reality/the truth.

 

I liken this thread to, you made a post claiming 2+2=5 and others( those who are accept empirical evidence/logic/reason/reality) are explaining to you that in fact 2+2=4. Due to your closed mind you will not accept the truth.

 

From my perspective you've been offered "the pill", many times, and you keep spitting it back.

 

This non-discussion is a waste of time.

@Mrnull - hello my brother. I'm typing up the responses I'll have them up by the end of the day. Don't make me blow up on you nully boy, I do have other shit to do than post on this forum my brother. You are touting logic and reason and making ad-hom attacks. You sound very very angry, and really emotional. Are you upset?

 

I'll be back here and respond to everyone before the day is out. And I'm coming for you specifically my nully boy.

 

Everyone, please give me a moment, I will respond. MrNull77 needs a stiff drink, dont be bothered by his emotional outburst.

[WasatchMan]

ahem....

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