Philosophy makes me unhappy. I can no longer justify it.

[utopian]

Or, it revealed the loneliness you already felt. You may have your cause and effect reversed. This was my experience.

 

Or it's narcissism. Your happiness is not unimportant or anything, but in terms of it being the basis for which you would argue that philosophy is not worth it,... not to be cruel, but so fucking what? Why should anyone care about that? Maybe we should, I just don't know the reason. It seems a bit beside the point, as far as I can tell.

 

If you were a sociopath, you wouldn't feel real happiness anyway, so your argument would be moot. The best you could hope for would be a fleeting kind of satisfaction. If you are capable of complex emotions like remorse, love, compassion, etc, then you are not a sociopath. And if you are a sociopath, then all of your arguments implode in a no null hypothesis, being wrong is proof of rightness kind of madness.

 

Mmm... I have known I am a lonely person since the beginning of high school, about 16 years ago. 

 

But the point about narcissism is an interesting one. There is no one else in my life. Well, there was not, until my girlfriend came along. I mean, theres acquaintances and such, but no one IN my life, if that makes sense. I have my shortfalls. But the things I am proud of, I am very proud of. I do love things about myself. I am perturbed that others arent as proud of myself as I am. Perhaps I love myself too much. When someone else showed me love, I had someone else to focus it on, and they shuddered under it. 

 

But anyway, I think others should care because, if I have a valid reason for no longer pursuing certain philosophy, it may apply to others as well. In fact I think it does, to most people, which is a reason why philosophy is not so popular. 

 

...your explanation of being a sociopath or not confuses me. 

[rosencrantz]

Which philosophers have you read and what philosophical topics did you study?

[Kevin Beal]

But the point about narcissism is an interesting one. There is no one else in my life. Well, there was not, until my girlfriend came along. I mean, theres acquaintances and such, but no one IN my life, if that makes sense. I have my shortfalls. But the things I am proud of, I am very proud of. I do love things about myself. I am perturbed that others arent as proud of myself as I am. Perhaps I love myself too much. When someone else showed me love, I had someone else to focus it on, and they shuddered under it.

I don't actually believe you have any zero-empathy personality disorders, but narcissism would make more sense than sociopathy given what you've said. And I hear that in some says we all have some amount of narcissism. I'm not sure I believe that, but hey... If you were a full blown narcissist, you would deeply resent me for what I said.

 

A narcissist would assume the value of a thing to others based solely on their own shallow emotional state. They (to whatever degree they are a narcissist) don't process other people's interests and feelings, and determine right from wrong in a purely self centered way. For example, if it bothers them, then that thing is bad universally. And anyone who disagrees is trying to gaslight them, the way I would feel irritated if you – in all seriousness – tried to argue that the sky is not blue on a clear midday, because no one could deny it's blueness. You would be fucking with me.

 

I think it is important to let people know that philosophy won't necessarily make them happy. If that's your goal, then I appreciate that. I'm not convinced, however, that your analysis of your own unhappiness with philosophy is an accurate one, for the reasons I stated (fantasy breeds resentment).

 

I have found that philosophy makes me feel everything more deeply, positive and negative. My decisions and my own proactive approach to solving problems in my life is what makes me happy.

 

Sociopaths cannot feel love. If you feel love, then you are not a sociopath. You can't have it both ways. That's all I was trying to say about that.

[AccuTron]

utopian--

 

I'm about to work up a post here:  The life of St. Julien, and his mom and pop - General Messages, and will reference this thread of yours.  Don't have it done yet, but you may want to get a head start with reading the Middle Ages story that's featured.  Internet History Sourcebooks Project

No further details here, as they would be spoiler, but a key scene in the story reminds me of your quandary.  I do not have a solution, but it will be interesting to see what others come up with.  Might be of assistance to you.

[regevdl]

Sorry your family is abusive and dysfunctional, that is a bad deal.  If you have things you love and are good at then find people who can appreciate that.  I am assuming these are things that others might also be good at (better or not) to which you can learn more or teach.  I find it perpelxing that everyone you described around you doesn't see your greatness yet you come off like they all need to change rather than you simply change your environment.  It's MUCH easier, to begin, to change your environment than to expect or attempt to change every person, of whom you described as dysfunctional.  Would you agree?  I want the closed minded people to change as much as the next guy but in pursuit of that, you have to know when to move on.  If people around me show me how dedicated they are to not changing and I still hang around them, then I can rationally no longer be angry or frustrated or resentful of them.  That would be putting irrational expectations and hope into them changing.  

 

Find others who are good or need improvment in the things you claim you are good at and the things you love about yourself.   

[utopian]

 

Which philosophers have you read and what philosophical topics did you study?

 

Friedrich Nietzsche, Bruce Lee... even Hitler had plenty of statist philosophy. Lots of different philosophers, but not everything they all had to say. I did come at philosophy from more of a statist mindset, and Hitler did actually make a lot of sense, from his perspective. When you are a constantly beaten 6 year old raised in an economic madhouse I think statism makes a lot of sense. Stef's anarchal peaceful philosophies are an interesting and refreshing opposite. I am still reconciling with it.

 

I don't actually believe you have any zero-empathy personality disorders, but narcissism would make more sense than sociopathy given what you've said. And I hear that in some says we all have some amount of narcissism. I'm not sure I believe that, but hey... If you were a full blown narcissist, you would deeply resent me for what I said.

 

 

I have found that philosophy makes me feel everything more deeply, positive and negative. My decisions and my own proactive approach to solving problems in my life is what makes me happy.

 

Sociopaths cannot feel love. If you feel love, then you are not a sociopath. You can't have it both ways. That's all I was trying to say about that.

 

I do feel some sort of resentment. I recognize that about myself, and put my feelings aside in pursuit of development. I always operate as if my feelings do not matter, and that is often the case anyway.

 

But I think you are confusing a psychopath with a sociopath. From WebMD;

 

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/sociopath-psychopath-difference

 

"A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not “found out,” Tompkins says.

 

A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop his behavior."

 

I do feel things. Certain things very weakly. Other things very strongly. I would like to be able to trust the medical community with a diagnosis for me but I am not the only one who knows why they cannot be trustworthy. From a corroboration of sources do I determine what is most likely for me.

 

 

utopian--

 

I'm about to work up a post here:  The life of St. Julien, and his mom and pop - General Messages, and will reference this thread of yours.  Don't have it done yet, but you may want to get a head start with reading the Middle Ages story that's featured.  Internet History Sourcebooks Project

No further details here, as they would be spoiler, but a key scene in the story reminds me of your quandary.  I do not have a solution, but it will be interesting to see what others come up with.  Might be of assistance to you.

 

Kissing a leper hmm? Interesting analogy...I have not read everything in your post, just a quick look over. I will check it out more just in case it does have an answer for me. 

 

 

 I find it perpelxing that everyone you described around you doesn't see your greatness yet you come off like they all need to change rather than you simply change your environment.  It's MUCH easier, to begin, to change your environment than to expect or attempt to change every person, of whom you described as dysfunctional.  Would you agree?  I want the closed minded people to change as much as the next guy but in pursuit of that, you have to know when to move on.  If people around me show me how dedicated they are to not changing and I still hang around them, then I can rationally no longer be angry or frustrated or resentful of them.  That would be putting irrational expectations and hope into them changing.  

 

Find others who are good or need improvment in the things you claim you are good at and the things you love about yourself.   

 

I have thought about the environment problem before. On the internet often hear women do not have the problems I seem to always run into, and then I go out into my city and keep running into them. It's been suggested I move to a different state to find better women. Interesting and plausible concept, but impractical. Still, will try to look for some different environments for other concepts. 

[Christopherscience]

(I'm taking heavy poetic license)

 

I came here because someone mentioned Nietzsche...

 

So... going to live for a lie, huh? A woman, no less? After essentially calling them vapid, and (later) saying how you have a hard time with empathy...

 

Interesting.

 

The female void (what I like to call the flighty nymphs and sprites... or "manic pixie dream girls"

) ... it sucks you in, if you let it. The imprinting, lust, dopamine, vasopressin, oxytocin, endorphin-opioid-receptor binding, love-drug is the opiate of choice for the abandoned boy. Love - it makes you blind, doesn't it? And the light of truth is harsh (whatever "harsh" means).

 

The fantasy is a reprieve from reality.

 

Nietzsche says that only those with an over-abundance of health are reckless enough to go searching for the truth. The sick simply don't have the strength and "freedom" to venture into the abyss.

 

Granted, man (the sickly animal, as Nietzsche calls us) is interesting precisely because he will lie to himself and, in that moment, create.

 

To create is imaginative. In a sense, to make a "lie" into a reality is an act of creation and visionary (perhaps "invent" is a better word, or "abstraction").

 

Happiness is your justification for things? Ha! I can't blame you for hedonistic tendencies. You want a woman who wants you and you're willing to " inject philosophy into a situation discreetly where applicable.  He advocates pretending. He advocates a philosophy of indirect philosophy. That is what I am advocating."

 

Pretend, if you like. You need no one's permission here to do so.

 

A girl with daddy issues who runs from harsh truths, and just wants your love, and who will make it very easy for you (so long as you don't press the issue of truth-at-any-cost)... Well... if that's what makes you happy, then...

 

From an amoral perspective, it's fortunate for you that there is such a wealth of women harboring daddy issues that you found one to fill your own void.

 

Two voids meet in an abyss...

 

Where do you start and where do you end? And where does she? Certainly, there are physical lines of demarcation, but there are still various forms of interaction between bodies (double entendre, and physics allusion intended). Cause and effect (action, reaction, equality and conservation of forces) still exist, whether you choose to live in a fantasy or not.

 

You are still subject to reality, and (as Ayn Rand might say) you can ignore reality but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality... Things will still come up, and it becomes a twisted web the more you avoid reality (and this "truth" that people keep mentioning, whatever "truth" is).

 

" I believe the reason none of you can convince me, is because the position is correct and there is no rational way to argue against it. "

 

You cannot reason a person out of a position that they did not reason themselves into.

 

You did not reason yourself into a lack of empathy, a void, and a lust... Naturally, reason won't help you.

 

You can soak up some therapy; you can stare at your navel; you can read a book; you can change your stimuli - but you will never be able to justify philosophy (this love of wisdom) if you are so sickly that you need pain-management (a morphine drip in the form of a desperate woman. "Endorphins ("endogenous morphine") are endogenous opioid neuropeptides."... you want to be "happy"... you're in pain, any fool could see that. You, the doctor of yourself, have prescribed pain medication... it's not a cure. "Physician, heal yourself: then will though also heal your patient. Let it be his best cure to see with his eyes him who makes himself whole." Thus Spake Zarathustra, Nietzsche)

 

Your pain management may aid your convalescence, I don't know.

 

You may become strong enough, one day, to venture out again in love of wisdom (after you heal).

 

But until then, you will be sick of the far-sight (wid; the proto-indo-european root of wisdom, meaning sight; philosophy being a kind of love of sight)...

 

As for the people attacking your position; they forget their Plato;

 

"Any one who has common sense will remember that the bewilderments of the eyes are of two kinds, and arise from two causes, either from coming out of the light or from going into the light, which is true of the mind's eye, quite as much as of the bodily eye; and he who remembers this when he sees any one whose vision is perplexed and weak, will not be too ready to laugh; he will first ask whether that soul of man has come out of the brighter light, and is unable to see because unaccustomed to the dark, or having turned from darkness to the day is dazzled by excess of light. And he will count the one happy in his condition and state of being, and he will pity the other; or, if he have a mind to laugh at the soul which comes from below into the light, there will be more reason in this than in the laugh which greets him who returns from above out of the light into the den." - Republic

 

...

 

Enjoy your rest. Tell your girlfriend "hello" from the philosophers at Freedomain Radio, and that "we hope you both an over abundance of strength and a happy future."

 

For what it's worth I'm sorry you two were neglected as children in the way that makes people this way...

 

My hope is meaningless, however, and it is, of course, contingent upon you both to heal your respective selves. Hope will not complete work, hope (and happiness) are abstractions (removed from reality). But I hope you great health.

[utopian]

Allow me a moment to keep from having an involuntary mental orgasm from your understanding Chris. You seem to have called certain things as they actually are without even having my explanation of everything. Refreshing, and quite a bit different from the lack of understanding I have yet so far mostly been assaulted with. And poetically handled, to boot. I think you will enjoy a further explanation.

 

So... going to live for a lie, huh? A woman, no less? After essentially calling them vapid, and (later) saying how you have a hard time with empathy...

 

Yes, and I stand by my general claims. The biggest stimulation women generally offer me is limited to their physical features, which then only offers challenge as far as if I can get in their pants. And while I pay attention to things which are actually important, like oh I don't know, the US debt and its implications for global thermonuclear war after an economic catastrophe which will see all of us going hungry on the streets, not only do women rarely seem interested in such things, but indeed, when I engage in conversation with them, because they are too prude to initiate it themselves, they choose to bring up such topics as Kim Kardashians most recent drama, their broken nails, and pictures of cats on the internet. As if that were not bad enough, they prudely deny their desires for men, expecting them to take all the actions of substance while they spend my money and dangle their sexuality like a carrot on a string. As if, anywhere along the way, women were worth it. No, I have no empathy for such women. 

 

 

 

The female void  ... it sucks you in, if you let it. The imprinting, lust, dopamine, vasopressin, oxytocin, endorphin-opioid-receptor binding, love-drug is the opiate of choice for the abandoned boy. Love - it makes you blind, doesn't it? And the light of truth is harsh (whatever "harsh" means).

 

The fantasy is a reprieve from reality.

 

Nietzsche says that only those with an over-abundance of health are reckless enough to go searching for the truth. The sick simply don't have the strength and "freedom" to venture into the abyss.

 

Granted, man (the sickly animal, as Nietzsche calls us) is interesting precisely because he will lie to himself and, in that moment, create.

 

To create is imaginative. In a sense, to make a "lie" into a reality is an act of creation and visionary (perhaps "invent" is a better word, or "abstraction").

 

Happiness is your justification for things? Ha! I can't blame you for hedonistic tendencies. You want a woman who wants you and you're willing to " inject philosophy into a situation discreetly where applicable.  He advocates pretending. He advocates a philosophy of indirect philosophy. That is what I am advocating."

 

Pretend, if you like. You need no one's permission here to do so.

 

 

A girl with daddy issues who runs from harsh truths, and just wants your love, and who will make it very easy for you (so long as you don't press the issue of truth-at-any-cost)... Well... if that's what makes you happy, then...

 

From an amoral perspective, it's fortunate for you that there is such a wealth of women harboring daddy issues that you found one to fill your own void.

 

Two voids meet in an abyss...

 

Where do you start and where do you end? And where does she? Certainly, there are physical lines of demarcation, but there are still various forms of interaction between bodies (double entendre, and physics allusion intended). Cause and effect (action, reaction, equality and conservation of forces) still exist, whether you choose to live in a fantasy or not.

 

You are still subject to reality, and (as Ayn Rand might say) you can ignore reality but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality... Things will still come up, and it becomes a twisted web the more you avoid reality (and this "truth" that people keep mentioning, whatever "truth" is).

 

 

Yes, it did. While I did used to take advantage of women with daddy issues, it was not until this woman came along that I actually studied what was going on, and realized that was what I was doing all along. Now I see the dynamic which provides for the quickest sexual experiences available, and believe that perhaps all women whom might have sudden casual encounters must have some degree of dysfunction. No wonder there are so many women available these days for such encounters, and there is such a prevailing hookup culture; women who are generally more easily sexually active are all products of early child abuse. I was even going to make a post about borderline personality disorder and it's relation to corporate interests, because this is one of the things this girl has. I was going to refrain from mentioning it, but our discussion will make it obvious for all to see anyway. For you see, with this woman, comes an interesting and refreshing change from women in general.

 

Where as most women, even so-called philosophical ones, deny their sexuality, this one gives it freely, and aggressively. Where most women prudely avoid initiating interactions with men, this one takes me by the hand and leads me to an adventure. Where most women deny their need for men, this one seeks me out, and displays her desire in every way. What else could a man want? Well, for one thing, actual love. Researching BPD, I read that women, who most commonly have BPD, are not actually capable of love. Their displays of affection are actually a survival mechanism, designed to prevent their subject from abandoning them. Once the BPD is sure they have you in their pocket, they lose all interest in you.

 

It was confusing to me at first, wondering how the most intense love I have ever felt, was not actually love. After testing the parameters, however, I have indeed concluded that this girl is in fact not capable of love, despite her being everything a man could desire. The dynamics according to my sources were fairly well defined, and accurately predicted her behaviors according to mine. When I am hers, she is gone. When I am gone or leaving, she is mine. She never gives herself voluntarily, without my playing of the running game. These mechanics seem to work very well with other women. Child abuse for young girls must be very prevalent. 

 

There is also a common saying amongst my sources that says, no one loves you as much as a BPD. It's true. I am in shock and awe at how much this girl is willing to struggle in order to keep me in her life. I have never seen such dedication, such passion or interest, from a woman. I find myself genuinely admiring her. I know this is simply a mechanic of her BPD, and yet, it seems, all my life all I wanted was for someone to desire me this much. 

 

Tell me Chris, where else could a man possibly find such fulfillment? My sources indicate mentally healthy women will never be capable of desire this intense. This tells me what I have suspected all along, that women are in fact not capable of a love worth having. Mentally healthy women will only ever provide a casual nonchalant love that, while may in fact be real because it is within the boundaries of reality, will never be fulfilling to men. With this girl I am given the illusion of love beyond reason, and I find it to be quite healing. 

 

 

 

But that is not the only thing at play here. I know she does not actually love me, despite what I feel. I know the mechanics at work, and which button to press for which outcome. I know this is all me loving myself, except instead of masturbation, I am masturbating myself with a biological human robot. With this woman also comes a challenge I have never even considered before, and actually, it is a philosophical challenge. We are indeed two voids, colliding in an abyss. I have done much more work to free myself from it. Perhaps a part of me is still inside, but while I might not always be going down the right path, I am always seeking it. And you see, as far as this girl is concerned, I am given a new challenge, one that questions the integrity of my own mental health; can I pull her from the abyss? Can I shape and mold her into a human that can once again actually love? Can I be her answer? Can I make this into the epic love worth living for?

 

 

No doubt am I a monster forged from fighting with monsters. I was born for the storm and the calm does not suit me. I was raised, although abusively, to seek and conquer challenges. And while mentally healthy women may be stimulating or interesting, they are so few and far between these days that it would be more sensible of me to go hunting unicorns. I would not want to anyway, I am sure. There would be no storm to conquer. I would lose interest. In fact, some of my studies into the imago theories of Freud suggest what I have confirmed throughout living my life, that I am not even attracted to mentally healthy women. My mother also had BPD. It's Freud all over again. What does it say about our modern society, that I find so many women attractive?

 

Although I must say, this one takes the cake. And I do believe I can pull her from the abyss. Her father was actually gay, and no doubt had other issues, not that that is necessarily related to his sexual orientation. Still, he never gave his daughter the adoration and eye contact that a healthy daughter would have. I will never forget the first time I looked into her eyes and let all the love in my heart burst forth for her. She shuddered and became hysterical, begging me to stop, but I didnt. Not until she distracted me with her physical aggressions anyway. It was not long afterwards that she told me her councelor had asked her what she had been doing lately, because she seemed so much better. My love for her heals her, and she has begun to show signs of actual love, though rare. This seems to be healing for me as well. I would say I was hurting, going through life, never finding any woman who could appreciate all the love in my heart. To love her so much gives me a sense of healing. And I know it heals her as well. Whenever I can, I make her stop and just look at my eyes. Sometimes there is crying and shaking and nervous laughter. She tries to deflect the uncomfortable feelings with sexual advances, but I wont let her. Still, she can't handle it for too long, and I mercifully succumb to her advances. 

 

I have indeed flirted with other women. I notice, lately, women paying attention to me. They seem to know something is different. I push their buttons based on the dynamics I have learned with this girl and see them working, and then become uninterested. Indeed, I must still pay attention to reality. I have to work and sleep and eat. I am philosophically conscious of this girls inability to love, and choose to consciously forge her into someone that can. I am fairly certain of her change, although it is aggravatingly slow. It may be the case one day that she can go no further, and I will have to decide if I want to continue along this path. I might have to leave her, and I will certainly be very sad. I really did put my heart and soul into this girl. I feel like I am actually getting a return. And while the truth of the situation is painful, the lie is beautiful enough to dull all pains. One day, I hope it will cease to be a lie. 

 

 

 

 

 

" I believe the reason none of you can convince me, is because the position is correct and there is no rational way to argue against it. "

 

You cannot reason a person out of a position that they did not reason themselves into.

 

You did not reason yourself into a lack of empathy, a void, and a lust... Naturally, reason won't help you.

 

 

 

I disagree. It has happened more than once now, in situations with people like, say, at work, that I an unempathetic outburst, thought about it while working, and later apologized. I remember thinking about what I had done, and thinking about how I would feel if it had happened to me. It did take me a long while and a lot of imagination. I think it is difficult, but not impossible. 

 

 

 "Physician, heal yourself: then will though also heal your patient. Let it be his best cure to see with his eyes him who makes himself whole." Thus Spake Zarathustra, Nietzsche)

 

Your pain management may aid your convalescence, I don't know.

 

You may become strong enough, one day, to venture out again in love of wisdom (after you heal).

 

But until then, you will be sick of the far-sight (wid; the proto-indo-european root of wisdom, meaning sight; philosophy being a kind of love of sight)...

 

 

 

But you see, I argue that I am healing myself. I like being there for her, helping her, trying to pull her from the abyss. I like the challenge. I like giving her all my love. It makes me feel like a man. I do indeed feel like I am healing from it. Who is to say, that we are not each other's answer? The imago theories of Freud state that we are made for each other, and readings on imago therapy suggest that the best thing we can do is try and make this work, because if we did not, we would both go find another person who resembled the same imago. Do I seem to you like I am not going about this consciously?

 

 

This is indeed a test of my philosophy, and I am playing between the dark and the light. I do feel blind. But, stumbling around in my blindness, I bump and touch and feel my way around, and learn. I have already learned about myself in this relationship; that I try too hard. If ever I did not succeed, it meant to me that I was not trying hard enough. I don't understand what it means not to try. That is what her counselor told her, is that I was putting too much pressure on this situation when it was bad, not so long ago. It means I need to try less; that instead of shoving philosophy down my lover's throat, I need to sneak philosophy into her, and wait for her to be ready to get better. It seems to be working, for both of us.

[rosencrantz]

Friedrich Nietzsche, Bruce Lee... even Hitler had plenty of statist philosophy. Lots of different philosophers, but not everything they all had to say. I did come at philosophy from more of a statist mindset, and Hitler did actually make a lot of sense, from his perspective.

 

So let me summarize. You read a drug addict, a crazy person, and finally Hitler. I am not surprised you feel turned off by what you mistake for philosophy. 

[Christopherscience]

I was going to write a long response, but decided not to post it.

 

Here's a taste, though:

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but I laughed when I read your response. Mostly I was laughing at myself because I've been in similar situations in the past, and I would never do that again. I'm not you, obviously. And just because a pattern exists does not mean it will persist.

 

I'm thinking about what the long-game is here, and I don't want to prognosticate. Frankly, I don't know the future, no one does.

 

Maybe you'll both live happily ever after. I can't see it, though.

 

Do your sources tell you how these relationships play-out? If you're following a formula, then I assume you have some idea as to how these things end.

 

I think you already know because you say; "[...]I actually studied what was going on, and realized that was what I was doing all along."

 

"[...]I know she does not actually love me, despite what I feel. I know the mechanics at work, and which button to press for which outcome. I know this is all me loving myself, except instead of masturbation, I am masturbating myself with a biological human robot. With this woman also comes a challenge I have never even considered before, and actually, it is a philosophical challenge. We are indeed two voids, colliding in an abyss. I have done much more work to free myself from it. Perhaps a part of me is still inside, but while I might not always be going down the right path, I am always seeking it. And you see, as far as this girl is concerned, I am given a new challenge, one that questions the integrity of my own mental health[...]"

 

"[...]I am fairly certain of her change, although it is aggravatingly slow. It may be the case one day that she can go no further, and I will have to decide if I want to continue along this path. I might have to leave her, and I will certainly be very sad. I really did put my heart and soul into this girl. I feel like I am actually getting a return. And while the truth of the situation is painful, the lie is beautiful enough to dull all pains. One day, I hope it will cease to be a lie."

 

...

 

I don't think you need me to read you back to yourself, though.

 

At this point I could become sententious, and tell you that what you're doing is wrong (or even that it was right, and good-for-you for trying to rescue this woman). I'm not going to be sententious and I'm not going to make a moral argument (except for holding up a mirror for you to reflect upon).

 

If you want the moral argument, then I really want to refer you to Stef's argument against prostitution (there were a whole series of podcasts in the 500s dealing with the topic) because I see a lot of overlap. Replace "money" with "the perception of love and security", though, because you're not giving her money from what I've read.

 

That's the extent to which I'll be sententious here. After all, what would be the use of finger-wagging, and judging you from on high? Giving you conclusions is not very philosophical.

 

...

 

Then I decided against posting the rest of it. I was kind of trying to talk you out of what you're doing. I decided against it because I became philosophical after that point, asking you questions, and going on at length, trying to lead you down a guided line of questioning... The philosophy you're rejecting.

 

Tell me Chris, where else could a man possibly find such fulfillment? My sources indicate mentally healthy women will never be capable of desire this intense. This tells me what I have suspected all along, that women are in fact not capable of a love worth having. Mentally healthy women will only ever provide a casual nonchalant love that, while may in fact be real because it is within the boundaries of reality, will never be fulfilling to men. With this girl I am given the illusion of love beyond reason, and I find it to be quite healing. 

 

 [...]

"

 

 

" I believe the reason none of you can convince me, is because the position is correct and there is no rational way to argue against it. 

 

"

 

You cannot reason a person out of a position that they did not reason themselves into.

 

 

You did not reason yourself into a lack of empathy, a void, and a lust... Naturally, reason won't help you.

 

"

 

 

I disagree. It has happened more than once now, in situations with people like, say, at work, that I an unempathetic outburst, thought about it while working, and later apologized. I remember thinking about what I had done, and thinking about how I would feel if it had happened to me. It did take me a long while and a lot of imagination. I think it is difficult, but not impossible. 

 

 [...]

 

 It seems to be working, for both of us.

I don't think there's much to say beyond 4 points and a (hopefully temporary) farewell:

• Asking where else a man can find fulfillment beyond [masturbation] is something I can't answer for you. You're "loving" yourself, according to your view on your relationship with your meat-puppet-robot-whatever.
• A point of clarification; I wanted to point out that I don't think you understood what I meant by saying

" I believe the reason none of you can convince me, is because the position is correct and there is no rational way to argue against it. "

 

You cannot reason a person out of a position that they did not reason themselves into.

 

You did not reason yourself into a lack of empathy, a void, and a lust... Naturally, reason won't help you.

You say, yourself, "With this girl I am given the illusion of love beyond reason"... I don't think you reasoned yourself into the NEED you feel (nor your LACK of empathy [as opposed to your belabored empathy]).

 

...

• I mean... you're going to do what you're going to do, and you think it's healthy. I see no point in trying to convince you otherwise; even though I'm skeptical of your desired outcome - I humbly admit that I don't know you, nor do I know the future.

   

  Plus, it would be silly of me to try to reason with you, ask questions, and use a philosophical method of elenchus-seeking.

   

  You can't justify philosophy... that's why I quit writing the rest of my response. I realized I was being philosophical in it... so I didn't post it.

   

  ...

• In closing, I'd like to leave you with this idea:

   

  It's not my responsibility to save the world, nor anyone in it; it is a delusion of grandeur that I could save anyone. As Dr. Nathaniel Branden might say - this kind of [survivor's guilt, and assuming impossible responsibility] is an attempt to gain a sense of control where there is none.

   

  I don't know if you can save this woman (whatever that means). It's possible. And I don't know the future, and I barely know you. But I do question if you have as much control (over yourself or others) as you think. I question it because it's possible that you're being manipulated by her, and by your previous abusers, into assuming an impossible responsibility. That is the role of a whipping boy, after all.

   

  I think your wanting to save this woman relates to a pattern in your life of being a whipping boy, assuming impossible responsibilities, and the search for control where there is none (as painful as that can be).

• (farewell)Again, I wish you both good health, and happiness. I hope (against my skepticism and personal experience) that things work out for you (even if wishful thinking amounts to nothing... which it does - it amounts to nothing, and I'd rather have my skepticism and experience/empiricism/philosophy).

   

  Your username... it's fitting.

[Troubador]

If you are adamant in leaving philosophy (or ignoring it, or whathaveyou), and you happen to have kids with this woman, don't hit em, and don't let her do it either. That is all.

[AccuTron]

... It's been suggested I move to a different state to find better women. Interesting and plausible concept, but impractical...

I notice that on MGTOW sites, in the readers's comments, there will always be at least one man who states that women are women, locale doesn't change the neural hardwiring.  Some/most of these guys lived in other countries.

------------------------------------------------------

Christopherscience

 

"Two voids meet in an abyss..."

 

Great line, never mind context here.  It's nagging me that it's the beginning to a "walked into a bar" joke.

-------------

I liked Chris's post 44 for general content , but then utopian post 45 shows maybe not so much in this specific case.  My reaction to 45 was "this guy (utopian) is doing some really good thinking; is this the same guy who said he didn't like philosophy?"

 

Maybe utopian is liking philosophy whether he wants to or not, suggesting that he really does want to.  I wouldn't know, but it does cause me to wonder if the woman you are now dating/describing is indeed, at least for now...the Julienesque leper.

[AccuTron]

Two Voids and a Leper walk into The Abysmal Bar & Grill.

The Barkeepforever asks "What will you be having?"

First Void says "A bottomless well drink."

Second Void says "Echoes of what I had last week."

The Leper says "Kiss me, you fools!"

[thebeardslastcall]

I waded through shit. Then I found philosophy. Then I waded through shit while knowing I was wading through shit.

You wade through shit and wonder "Why can't I just be happy wading through shit, why must I know I'm wading through shit?"

You get angry at philosophy, at your eyes, for showing you that you were wading through shit as if your eyes put you into the shit and surely gouging out your eyes would save you from the shit.

Philosophy has done you no wrong. By your eyes you've be given sight to see that you are in shit and by sight you've been given the ability to imagine the possibility of not being in shit. Yet you still find yourself in shit, because seeing you are in shit isn't enough to get you out of shit and forsaking your eyes will not spare you from being in shit and now that you've seen you're in shit you can't return to blind thoughts.

To live in illusion is to accept death. To long for illusion is to long for death's embrace to take you quietly because you've given up on life. You want to be free of shit, but you aren't willing to do what it takes to get yourself out and as many are aware simply being able to see you're in shit won't free you from the shit you're in.

Others, with eyes closed, have never seen this shit and they reject your requests to open their eyes because they've embraced philosophy more than you have. They do not open their eyes because they know they have not the will or means to get free of the shit. Know thyself. To open your eyes and demand others open theirs without the will or means to free yourself from shit is to be in the hellish middle of pseudo-philosophy. Those that think they've found philosophy and happiness merely by opening their eyes to where they stand. Philosophy doesn't say open your eyes, it says open your eyes if you're going to do something and will accept and be grateful for knowing where you stand and will accept what you can change and what you cannot change and will be glad with the results. To force the eyes open of others is to do to others what you have done to yourself. To try to damn them to a half measure and the misery that follows. Now that you've opened your eyes you must accept and move forward or live in misery accepting that you had not the will to do what was necessary to get out of what shit you could. You're afraid and won't admit it is fear and denial, not philosophy, that keep you.

You can't reinsert yourself into the matrix. To fight this is anti-philosophical and will bring you more and more misery.

Stop whining. Stop trying to force others to open their eyes until you've figured out what to do with yours. If all you're going to do is stand there whining that you're in shit and demand others open their eyes to whine with you then be silent. You're doing no one any good acting like that. Trying to damn philosophy and turn everyone permanently blind will surely never save you from your shit and would only guarantee more people never see and free themselves from the shit. Equality of misery or death is no life, no joy, no good, and is no philosophy.

Philosophy is no shovel. Philosophy is the eyes to see the shit and the will to find the shovel and to use it to get out of what shit you can and the ability to accept what shit you can't get out of. Philosophy neither takes nor gives life, it simply reveals what life you have and haven't got. You opened your eyes, got scared, and shut them again. Silly thing to do aye?

[Frosty]

I feel kind of similar to the topic of this thread, the truth is often depressing.

 

My experience is that the addage "the red pill is a bitter pill to swallow" is accurate. The Manic Pixie Prostitute that Christopherscience posted made me laugh, I think the hyper stimulation of romance in modern storytelling makes life depressing by comparison. Maybe it's more obvious that a hyper violent action scene in entertainment isn't something you'd typically experience in real life but less obvious that these kind of love stories and female characters are just as unrealistic.

 

Luckily the bitterness is something most overcome and what I lose in hope I gain back in intellectual stimulation, I enjoy the stimulation of discussion and new ideas and while that remains the case it's a good reason to stick with it. Besides you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, the best thing to do is learn how to make philosophy work for you rather than let the truth bury you, I do think it gives us much better agency to change things to our benefit.

[utopian]

 

So let me summarize. You read a drug addict, a crazy person, and finally Hitler. I am not surprised you feel turned off by what you mistake for philosophy. 

 

Your post makes obvious that you are one of the prudes I was concerned about originally, too judgmental to consider and know your enemy. 

 

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/17976-if-you-know-the-enemy-and-know-yourself-you-need

 

Your enemy knows you, rosencrantz. That's why they have defeated you and everyone else running around with their fingers in their ears. You all don't even know you are defeated. That's why the state wins. Also, you seem to have glossed over the part where I said that was not the only philosophy I have considered. 

 

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but I laughed when I read your response. Mostly I was laughing at myself because I've been in similar situations in the past, and I would never do that again. I'm not you, obviously. And just because a pattern exists does not mean it will persist.

I'm thinking about what the long-game is here, and I don't want to prognosticate. Frankly, I don't know the future, no one does.

Maybe you'll both live happily ever after. I can't see it, though.

Do your sources tell you how these relationships play-out? If you're following a formula, then I assume you have some idea as to how these things end.
 

 

They say, generally, that such a relationship is doomed to failure. They also say BPDs can in fact get better. I estimate that perhaps there is about a 15% chance this will all pan out.

 

But it brings me back to the prudery issue I addressed before, and was just faced with again. Sure, it behooves everyone to always wait for the philosophically perfect. That is a trap, because while ideal, nothing is ever perfect. Part of my frustration on this forum is seeing so many people here, sitting around, pandering to the local society, never daring to venture out, staying quietly and comfortably in their hobbit holes. Never challenging their comfort zones. Never subjecting themselves to real world issues, thinking they would know themselves enough if they were ever forced into situations.

 

What would you recommend I do Chris? Would you expect me to sit comfortably in my hobbit hole? Would you expect me to go gently into that good night? Would suggest to me that it is better to never love at all, where I mightd have loved and lost? Hell, seems like I might as well just go ahead and stop living. I have tried and failed before. It did cost me. And yet, it always made me more satisfied to fail and know I at least tried, than it did for me to not try and regret it.

 

 

 

 

That's the extent to which I'll be sententious here. After all, what would be the use of finger-wagging, and judging you from on high? Giving you conclusions is not very philosophical.

 

 

Well, perspective is appreciated. I have stated here before, I seek it, as it helps me see myself. 

 

 

 

Then I decided against posting the rest of it. I was kind of trying to talk you out of what you're doing. I decided against it because I became philosophical after that point, asking you questions, and going on at length, trying to lead you down a guided line of questioning... The philosophy you're rejecting.
 
I don't think there's much to say beyond 4 points and a (hopefully temporary) farewell:

• Asking where else a man can find fulfillment beyond [masturbation] is something I can't answer for you. You're "loving" yourself, according to your view on your relationship with your meat-puppet-robot-whatever.
• A point of clarification; I wanted to point out that I don't think you understood what I meant by saying

You say, yourself, "With this girl I am given the illusion of love beyond reason"... I don't think you reasoned yourself into the NEED you feel (nor your LACK of empathy [as opposed to your belabored empathy]).

 

 

Aah... I think you are right, I did not understand. I did not in fact reason myself into my needs. I did not have a choice, these needs seem to come from my own child abuse. 

 

I mean, I think I am capable of reasoning myself out of situations, with support. Would you like to know a recent time I feel I have done so? Kevin msged me, telling me that I may have mistaken other people's philosophy on this forum, for Stef's philosophy/philosophy in general. He was right. Somewhere along the way I confused the prudery on this forum for philosophy in general, thinking that was what was making me unhappy, and what I wanted to leave. Philosophy does actually make me happy; just not everyones. That makes for an an awkward thread post. 

 

 

 

 

• 
  
  It's not my responsibility to save the world, nor anyone in it; it is a delusion of grandeur that I could save anyone. As Dr. Nathaniel Branden might say - this kind of [survivor's guilt, and assuming impossible responsibility] is an attempt to gain a sense of control where there is none.
  
  I don't know if you can save this woman (whatever that means). It's possible. And I don't know the future, and I barely know you. But I do question if you have as much control (over yourself or others) as you think. I question it because it's possible that you're being manipulated by her, and by your previous abusers, into assuming an impossible responsibility. That is the role of a whipping boy, after all.
  
  I think your wanting to save this woman relates to a pattern in your life of being a whipping boy, assuming impossible responsibilities, and the search for control where there is none (as painful as that can be).

• (farewell)Again, I wish you both good health, and happiness. I hope (against my skepticism and personal experience) that things work out for you (even if wishful thinking amounts to nothing... which it does - it amounts to nothing, and I'd rather have my skepticism and experience/empiricism/philosophy).
   

 

Well I thank you for your perspective. I disagree on some points, but I feel you tire of this discussion. I do think you are genuinely good hearted in your responses. 

 

 

To live in illusion is to accept death. To long for illusion is to long for death's embrace to take you quietly because you've given up on life. You want to be free of shit, but you aren't willing to do what it takes to get yourself out and as many are aware simply being able to see you're in shit won't free you from the shit you're in.
 

 

And yet, such a large percentage of the population lives in illusion, and I end up doing what Stef calls dancing with ghosts. I argue here that I have found a compromise, which is to be an agent of change, as linked in one of Stef's videos. That I should dance with the ghosts while sneaking life into them. 

[Jot]

How does Stefan look to you? Happy/Unhappy?

[joedacro]

I dont know where i heard this, but i find it to be very true about people:

 

there are three types of people when it comes to socializing.

 

1. People that talk about others

2. People that discuss current events

3. People who exchange ideas critically

 

when you talk to people you will see this more and more. most people are mostly 1s and 2s. But Seldom you will find people willing to share a thought let alone let that thought be criticized. But not all is lost. with people who cannot be the 3rd type you can always take an interest in their conversation and share your ideas/thoughts. You will be surprised how many people are capable of being thinkers but just are not because of their environments. Hopefully this can help with socializing in the future.

 

Regarding happiness. Firstly portray your self as happy, then proceed to make others happy. If you are not portraying your self as a happy person, people will not bog you down with their problems because they see you dont have anything to offer them. I say this because you said you found philosophy, you recognize your mind thinks more than the general minds of the world. So Im assuming you are more intelligent than the average person. start acting like it and show people that you are worth their time.

 

Like every human on this Earth you find joy in making others happy