Mental Illness and Children

[algernon]

Dealing with a situation with the in-laws and wanted some input on it, hopefully this is the right place to post it.

 

About a month ago my wife and I decided it would be the best course of action to not associate with her sister or expose our daughter to her, our daughter being the biggest motivating factor. I came to the conclusion when I saw our daughter interacting with my wife's sister and giving her hugs, I was quite disturbed that out 18 month old daughter was showing her affection and thought to myself how can I make her understand you are affectionate towards some people and not others? Well the obvious answer is I cannot at this age, it's my job to not expose her to people she shouldn't be affectionate towards.

 

After more consideration on why my wife's sister interacting with our daughter disturbed me it was quite obvious, which lead me to the determination that she should not be exposed to her at all, most likely ever.

 

My sister in-law is diagnosed bipolar and a compulsive liar, when she was 16 she went to the police and told them her brothers molested her (Investigated and determined to be false). At 18 she became pregnant and married to the father, a short time later they divorced and he got full custody of the boy, she then found someone else to impregnate her and had two children by him. Mix in some prostitution and drugs, one child was given away (literally just given away to baby daddy's sister in another state) and now Grandma is raising the younger boy from that "relationship".

 

A short time later "relationship" #3 comes into the picture, she is once again impregnated and has boy #4. Her drugs, social worker and CPS involvement, close relationship with the state continues. The state determines it is better to let a foster home raise this baby than the mother.

 

So here we are, by the time she's 24, having 4 children and "losing" (forceful removal by the state) or giving them all away.

 

Now don't forget about the different drugs, from cannabis to meth, and the occasional prostitution and possible fights with the pimp. It's hard to know what's entirely true coming from a compulsive liar, but the police reports are somewhat accurate I'm sure.

 

In my opinion a developing brain should not be exposed to that type of person, is mental illness contagious? I don't know, but I know I prefer not being around toxic people, therefore I'm not going to expose my progeny to them. That and her very close and constant involvement with the state, which I want absolutely no part of.

 

I discuss this with my wife and she totally agrees, it will make it more difficult as when I travel she will go and visit her mom and stay for dinner, but if her sister is over there which she often is, as she's continually homeless, she won't be going.

 

My wife has this discussion with her mother, she doesn't agree with our decision but understands (so she says) that we are trying to protect our daughter. This was about 1.5 months ago.

 

One week before Christmas the sister in law is at her moms house and the cops show up and her social worker, a few hours before when she had her regular check in with the social worker she told the social worker she woke up the night before and was standing over her boyfriend with a knife considering killing him. When the social worker shows up at her moms house, she basically gives her mom the choice, either she is going to be responsible for her or they are going to take her to the psych hospital (again). The mom says no she cannot be responsible and watch her, so the cops start to arrest her at which point she starts running around the house screaming, runs outside and then is cuffed in front of the house screaming.

 

We were told she was going to be in the hospital at least 14 days (this was one week before Christmas).

 

Here is the climax of the story and my issue.

 

We were over at the in-laws Christmas eve, and my father in law gets a call, it's the sister asking to be picked up from the boyfriends house, she's coming over. We had been over there for about an hour, in the middle of opening presents, my little girl was having a blast, and he just gets up and walks out the house! Both me and my wife look at each other and are like what the fuck? Her mom gets up and starts doing stuff around the house nervously. I start discussing it with my wife right there in front of the rest of the family, we had no idea she was coming over and were completely blindsided. As we come to find out, every goddamn person there knew she was coming over, and her parents didn't tell us to try and blindside us, make it an awkward situation and get us to stay against our wishes.

 

Ever been pulled over by a man with a gun in a costume, trying to extort money from you and hopefully not wanting to kill you? You know that surge you get, that fight or flight response that makes it hard to talk, you feel like you either need to fight for your life or run away? Yeah that's exactly how we both felt. It was an ambush. We were shocked too, we were told she had no chance of being there.

 

So I tell my wife, "hey you know what we have to do, we don't have a choice." Especially at this point, there was no discussion (as normal with her family), no negotiation, they were trying to control us. Even IF I didn't think it was that big of a deal being around her (which I do), I could not respect myself if I allowed people to run over me like that. We discuss it with her mom for five minutes or so, reiterate our point and make it clear we are leaving if she comes over. She argues that mental illness isn't contagious, it's okay for a developing brain to be exposed to toxic people. I use the "If you were in a room with a person vomiting blood, you would take your child out of that room wouldn't you? Because they are sick! This person is SICK, she cannot be around our daughter". Every argument was completely disregarded.

 

We tell her we are leaving, she calls up my wife's dad and says "Don't bring her sister here, if you do they are leaving". He says "She's not going to make me choose between my children, I am bringing her home". We get up and walk out, right as her dad was walking in with her sister, my wife says to him "I can't believe you would disrespect us like that" and he says "I can't believe you would disrespect me like that", a total canned defensive offense attack. No level of genuine communication.

 

And we left, this was Christmas Eve and my wife hasn't talked to her parents since then, and they have not tried to reach out to her. Which is typical of course, any uncomfortable issue or problem needs to be ignored, that's obviously why her sister is so incredibly fucked up.

 

Obviously the biggest issue of the whole situation is they railroaded us, or tried to at least. It was a test and they lost. This was at 11am, they easily could have arranged for her sister to be over after we had left but they were trying to coerce us into being "one big happy (fake) family". Let's just pretend nothing is wrong, it can be just like when everyone was kids!

 

There's obviously a huge trust issue now with her mom ever watching our daughter again unsupervised, does she spank her when we aren't there? Does she feed her things she isn't suppose to eat in which we asked her not to be given? Does she yell and scream? Who knows.

 

We were thinking of sending them an email, outlining all of the transgressions and stating our perspective once again and seeing how they respond or try to amend it. They obviously don't think they did anything wrong as it's been two weeks and no apology or communication. A phone call or a personal confrontation would result in yelling, screaming, crying and zero logic. At least with written communication you can read it, allow your emotions to take control of you, and hopefully when that powerful internal drug wears off, they could be reasonable.

 

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

 

TL;DR - In-laws are crazy.

 

P.S. please excuse errors, this is first draft and I'm going to bed.

[RCali]

That's an awful story. And I'm especially sorry that the sister in law is so disconnected from reality. What must have happened in her life, that she would be reduced to such insanity. 

I must say, though. After all of this story you tell, and the parents excusing themselves such, how do you still consider ammendment? It's not on that specific case they must ammend. They have a destroyed child. What have they done to try and help? Have they apologized for what they've done to her? It goes over my head, how you would bring your most precious thing in the planet, your daughter, anywhere near these people. If it were me, I'd seek to try and have them fix themselves and their own daughter. Only after this were assured and done, would I consider bringing my own close to them.

[AccuTron]

 "hey you know what we have to do, we don't have a choice."

-- huge compliments on doing that.  The biggest challenge and the biggest reward are to have the guts to first break the bonds, to stand up for oneself (and child).

 

I advise against all email, phone, etc.  As you stated, they won't deal with reality or responsibility or honesty at all.  I am reminded of various times (like constantly) that I try to use logic and truth, and the total futility.  You will spend so much effort, and only be ignored in return.  It's like trying to convince Satan on a career change; ain't happening.  Whether it's lack of will, or other, those people will never ever do what's right, will always put you and your child in harm's way.

 

You have a lot on your plate, and your wonderful spine in this is what you need most.  

[brucethecollie]

So sorry for all this   May you be firm in your decision and get peace from it.  And to throw an antidote in, my brother who everyone said wouldn't hurt a fly (though he is much like your sister-in-law it sounds) once picked up my son while drunk and clumsily flipped him onto the couch, his head an inch from a sharp corner (he popped by my parents house, walked in, and did this before any of us could stop him).  People like this are a ticking time bomb and I think it's the only thing we can do to stay completely away.  I don't even go to my parents house anymore just in case he comes by when we are there.  And since our children are our priority, there is no guilt in doing so.  I wouldn't even email anyone because they have the information you have-they just don't want to face it.

[algernon]

That's an awful story. And I'm especially sorry that the sister in law is so disconnected from reality. What must have happened in her life, that she would be reduced to such insanity. 

I must say, though. After all of this story you tell, and the parents excusing themselves such, how do you still consider ammendment? It's not on that specific case they must ammend. They have a destroyed child. What have they done to try and help? Have they apologized for what they've done to her? It goes over my head, how you would bring your most precious thing in the planet, your daughter, anywhere near these people. If it were me, I'd seek to try and have them fix themselves and their own daughter. Only after this were assured and done, would I consider bringing my own close to them.

 

At around 6 or 7 she was molested by the neighbors father, apparently her parents didn't find out until several years later when another neighbor brought charges against him, since her parents knew she would play with this neighbor girl and go over to their house that's how they found out. Obviously a huge red flag, not knowing something happened to your child like that until years later. I was told they put her in therapy and counseling a few times, but she would "counsel the counselor" whatever that means, and it didn't do any good - was their story.

 

Obviously if one doctor isn't fixing the issue you find a new one, why this wasn't seriously pursued probably falls into the same category as why didn't you know something like this happened to your child for years? From what I've heard they have never owned the situation as a parent should do, and now that she is 25 they are enabling her poor choices, not allowing her to hit rock bottom and hopefully pursue serious help.

 

How can the situation be amended? I honestly don't know, I just know my little girl likes her grandma and papa, and she likes going over there to play with toys and seeing them. They live relatively close and she would get to see them pretty often, her other grandparents live over an hour away and only sees them once every couple months.

 

 

 "hey you know what we have to do, we don't have a choice."

-- huge compliments on doing that.  The biggest challenge and the biggest reward are to have the guts to first break the bonds, to stand up for oneself (and child).

 

I advise against all email, phone, etc.  As you stated, they won't deal with reality or responsibility or honesty at all.  I am reminded of various times (like constantly) that I try to use logic and truth, and the total futility.  You will spend so much effort, and only be ignored in return.  It's like trying to convince Satan on a career change; ain't happening.  Whether it's lack of will, or other, those people will never ever do what's right, will always put you and your child in harm's way.

 

You have a lot on your plate, and your wonderful spine in this is what you need most.  

 

Thanks for the compliments. You are most likely right, though seeing their granddaughter is a huge motivator, as my wife was always their favored child, and our daughter is their only granddaughter, I am hoping the idea of having a relationship with her would motivate change. I think perhaps they are a bit delusional, and don't even comprehend the gravity of the situation. Her entire family deals with issues by pretending they don't exist. Each time her sister got pregnant by a new guy they wouldn't acknowledge that it was a negative thing, and everyone would talk to her like it's good.

 

My thoughts on contacting them were to at least let them know how serious we think this is and then it would be up to them to fix it.

 

 

So sorry for all this   May you be firm in your decision and get peace from it.  And to throw an antidote in, my brother who everyone said wouldn't hurt a fly (though he is much like your sister-in-law it sounds) once picked up my son while drunk and clumsily flipped him onto the couch, his head an inch from a sharp corner (he popped by my parents house, walked in, and did this before any of us could stop him).  People like this are a ticking time bomb and I think it's the only thing we can do to stay completely away.  I don't even go to my parents house anymore just in case he comes by when we are there.  And since our children are our priority, there is no guilt in doing so.  I wouldn't even email anyone because they have the information you have-they just don't want to face it.

 

I definitely have no second thoughts regarding our decision, I know it's the right thing and didn't make it without careful consideration. As a friend of mine pointed out, someone who continually lies, people will stop believing, and when that happens these fake stories of bad things happening are orchestrated to become true.

 

So what is the consensus, don't reach out and wait until they contact us and then bring up the issues? The only contact my wife has had with her parents since Christmas eve was around the 1st of the year her mom texted her and told her they just got back from the doctor and he prescribed her dad a new drug, he's now taking 9 different medications. She completely ignored anything happened on Christmas Eve and then sent her that message to try and get pity. He's in his 70s and had a stroke last year.

[RCali]

Do you think they have the capacity to change? And with capacity I mean both the ability to understand just how terribly they are dealing with the situation (not dealing with it), and the will to do something. Obviously, with all you've say, the answer is no. So why are you still trying? Do you feel you owe them something? Do you feel your wife to keep trying to make it work? Do you think it could be the best for your daughter? Is it worth taking the risk of such terrible behavior being possibly replicated by your daughter in the future, the benefit that could come from it? Not even referring to your sister in law, but the grandparents. Simply watching their own child crash and burn into oblivion... I don't even know what's the worse example. That, or actually being whom caused it in the first place. At least aggression is obvious, and can be avoided. Sorry if I'm being over aggressive on this, but it really pisses me off. I don't know how you could let someone you literally have created go through such pain and constant suffering for decades. It hits me close to home, but for me it wasn't anywhere as bad as that at all. And I know just how much it affected me. I can't imagine how terrible it must be for the sister in law.

I'm dealing with this exact thing right now, for myself. And I honestly am very tired and hopeless. It's been like this with my mother since the dawn of me, and even though progress happened, a magnifying glass is required to measure it. Maybe even a microscope. It's pathetic and pisses me off. And reading your story, it triggers me even more, since it's so incredibly worse than my case. Either they are dumb, cowards or don't give a crap. Maybe all three. It doesn't make it any less worse, and I don't think it's forgivable.

I think, quite a few times, of the time when I'll have a family of my own. Sons and daughters. I think of just how much good I want to have them feel. Each and every single day. I will have the world for them, and keep all evil from them, for as long as I have arms attached to my body, and able to bear arms to slay any monster that comes by. Bringing one into the world and watching them being bitten by a fiend is just as terrifying and cruel as doing the biting themselves. I can't imagine any time I would have my progeny contact with my ascendants. I'm sure my brother will be fine. I'm sure my close cousin will be fine. None else. I trust none else with such pure creatures that I will bring to light. They have been bad, through idleness. And considering that same idleness, what I do trust they will stay the same, just like that old law of Newton's. Inertia affects these people.

[algernon]

I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, and that these issues hit so close to home. I've dealt with other issues with people, and the progress towards something better being at less than a snails pace, I definitely understand that frustration, and even more frustrating when they say "I've made changes, I'm different than before! Why is it never good enough for you?"... Yes the whole microscope to measure it, that I can understand.

 

Regarding this situation - Do they have the capacity for change? I have no idea, I think in general most people have the capacity but choose not to. I've changed considerably in the last 3 or so years, all of this stuff is relatively new in the grand scheme of my existence. It was only less than 2 months ago that we decided not to expose our daughter to the aunt, she was rarely around, maybe had only ever seen our daughter 2 times a year for a very brief period. She started coming around more to Grandmas house recently because the latest boyfriend was done putting up with her psychosis and trying to kick her out. It's also slightly different when you have a baby that you are constantly holding and can't talk or communicate, but as the child grows and becomes more aware that is really when you have to be selective of outside influence.

 

I didn't realize how seriously fucked up the situation was until I started listening to Stef and doing other research on raising children, childhood abuse and how to deal with these situations. Society treats these things as "Oh, that's so unfortunate" without putting blame on the parents, of course. After having a kid and doing the research, I hold myself to an extremely high standard as a parent, and in doing so I hold other people to the same standard. Unfortunately that means I don't have many friends left, for the better I suppose. As I learned these things I challenged my wife to have discussions with her mom on how to help her sister, of course the mom just made excuses. After she takes her in off the street, helping her maintain her habits and destructive lifestyle we would say why are you doing that, it's only hurting her. The response would be, "but she's my child, I can't abandon my child" not realizing she already did, a very long time ago.

 

I would like to say this is the first time they have transgressed against us directly, but as I think about it I realize other instances. Mid last year we had a get together and invited out family and some friends, my wife specifically told her parents not to bring her sister. They completely disregarded it went and picked her up and brought her. There was a few other instances a long time ago when we had a parties during Halloween that my wife invited her brothers but not her sister, and her parents told her sister we were having a party and she showed up against our wishes. I should have brought down the hammer of Thor after those situations but that was before I was deeply invested in self knowledge and philosophy, I let them slide. Now that I have a child to protect, and in a few months a second child - I cannot let it slide.

 

Do I feel like I owe them something? Absolutely not. I would like for my daughter to have a relationship with her grandparents for her sake, it can be something special if you have good people, but at this point that happening will be entirely up to them, and their capacity for change. If the situation can be fixed the relationship can be beneficial for everyone, it's important to have good people in your life that can help you in times of need.

 

Why am I still trying? This hasn't been a long arduous process, I thought previously the relationship was pretty good with the in-laws, obviously I was wrong since as soon as I set a standard in which they had to achieve, a very minor one at that in my opinion, they failed. If they do have the capacity to change, I think at this point in time the only thing in the world that can motivate it would be the ability to see their granddaughter.

 

Re: Is it ignorance, cowardice, apathy? All of them I would say.

[algernon]

How did your wife respond to that text (if at all)? Something my therapist says that I'm using as a mantra lately, is that you can't change other people. You can only change yourself and open up the space for them to change. Like Stef says, the only thing you owe anyone is a mirror to reflect reality back at them. Don't know if that helps. I know it's abstract, but I'm thinking your attitude is the important thing, not the specific course of action you choose.

 

No response to the text, she knew it was sent to try and manipulate her.

 

Yes I wholeheartedly agree, you definitely cannot change people, I've been down that road before! Isn't it cruel we aren't (most of us) taught these things as children? I suppose discovering this mid twenties is better than never. I can't wait to teach my children these things as they grow into adults, it makes me happy for them. I think perhaps one of the things that helped me a lot was the fact that I can remember being 1 and 2, and how I felt in a lot of situations. I think if every parent could remember being very young they might treat their children better.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

"I have no idea [if they can change], I think in general most people have the capacity but choose not to."

 

Are you seriously saying you think a 70 year old on 9 medications a day has the capacity to grow empathy? That is your father in law right? Your wife's father? I just want to make sure I didn't confuse that.

 

Nothing is going to change these people as far as can possibly be ascertained from their actions. People, as far as I've ever seen or experienced, don't grow real empathy in their 60s and 70s. Every bit of evidence you have presented in this thread says that are not going to grow real empathy. I would think it incapable for them to. It is not a choice anymore for them. Once you raise a daughter who is prostituting herself out, and you've enabled her for 24 years of her life (besides abusing her to the point where she would be so unhealthy), there is no conscience left to reconcile the wounds they have opened. If there were, they would have done something a long time ago.

 

They are in the last quarter of their life now. The smoker doesn't decide to quit smoking at year 70, when he had 40 years prior to and never did. Significant change comes in the first half of life. The brain gets more plastic as time goes on and the costs to change increase every single day they resist it. That's 70 years of a trend. It's not going to switch now because they want to see your daughter; empathy will cause them suffering, so short term gains will not motivate them.

 

 

You were actually enabling them (I've enabled abuse before too so I don't mean to finger point) and their treatment of their daughter. You were making it easier for them to be evil since you were subsidizing the bad consequences of their evil (like forfeiting their chance to have grand children). Evil people do not deserve to be around children. They have already injected their virus into one child successfully, what more proof do you want that they do not deserve to be around children?

 

You said your daughter likes being around them... Well she is 18 months old, right? So the idea that her parents are putting her in care of people who have completely ruined children before would be so terrifying to her that she would not be able to express her true feelings even if she were aware of their true character. I'm not saying it's easy (I don't have them in my life yet), but there have to be better people you can have your children around and if you and your wife are both psychologically healthy then maybe it is time to branch out more towards building healthy relationships outside the marriage, and you can help each other in doing so.

 

I'm really sorry these people were in your life for as long as they were. It sounds like you're moving towards the conclusion that they won't change, but I just wanted to make the case to you after reading your thread that they definitely won't. I was appalled at the idea that these people deserve to be taking care of children at any extent, so that is why I wanted to speak out.